Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    I know someone who always had a hard time making a decision.
    When I talked with him about it once, he explained his problem
    as an extreme example of the Robert Frost (? I'm not really up
    on poetry) conundrum of "the road not taken". If he had a number
    of things to work on, he could never decide which to do, because
    by picking one, he would be shutting off all of his other options,
    and he'd always wonder if he could've accomplished more by taking
    one of the other options. thus, he hardly ever accomplished
    *any*thing.
    
    Your SO may have the same problem to a different degree. It may
    be that he does love you and want you, but way back there in the
    deep recesses of his brain, he may be wondering whether he might
    find someone "better" if he holds out just a little while longer.
    I don't mean to belittle him or your relationship by suggesting
    this; this wondering may be entirely subconscious, something that
    manifests itself to his conscious mind as just a vague sense of
    being unsure or wanting to not jump into anything.
    
    I don't think I can offer any advice per se. Basically, you have
    to weigh the pros and cons. Will waiting for him to make up his
    mind he worth the aggravation beforehand?
    
    As for the engagement period, personally speaking, if you've been
    going together for circa two years, I would think that would be
    "engagement" enough, and thus the "official" engagement need not
    be very long.
    
    --- jerry

From .0:

>    I've been told that HE wants to wait at least 2-2.5 yrs after starting
>    dating before he makes a decision about getting engaged.  

My first question was "why". There could be good reasons for this. But then I
saw:

>	he says that he loves me and that we both know that
>    we are right for each other and will eventually end up married - it's
>    just a matter of when. 

I don't understand this. Surely engagement is a declaration of intent to marry
each other - and he has this intent.

Where did he get this figure of 2-2.5 years from?

	Andrew.

I do understand how frustrated you are, as my husband is a born temporizer. He
will avoid taking a decision as long as he can, and then I'll usually take it
for him and he'll be pleased to go along... and be relieved that I took it out
of his hands!

We didn't have this problem with marriage though, as neither of us wanted to
marry: I was 19 when we met, we started living together 2 years later, and
married 3 years later, when I was 24 and 5 months pregnant. No engagement,
no religious ceremony. We thought marrying was fairer to the child, and I was
the one who organized the legal papers - his and mine - and set the date, etc.
I am 33 now.

I have never regretted this long waiting period when we learnt to known each
other and live together. I really beleive it was beneficial for both of us, as
we wanted to be real sure of each other before making a long lasting commitment.
My parents are divorced, and so was my husband, and that did make us awfully
cautious!

I hope you won't feel I am impertinent, but can you/did you ask yourself the
following questions:

1) Do I really understand, without any doubt, why he is holding back?
2) Do I really understand why I want to marry rapidly?
3) Does he understand my motivations, do I understand his?
4) Do I want to marry because I believe this is unequivocally right for both
   of us or for appearances'sake?
5) If I were to become accidentally pregnant, would he agree to marry asap,
   or would he continue temporizing? 
6) If I were to tell him we marry "now or never" - insert any date you want
   instead of "now" - what would happen?

There may be some deep insecurities, in either or both of you, which trigger
your different attitudes, and it could be worth trying to understand them,
even though it may mean breaking the relationship in the end. It could also
mean a much deeper commitment to each other, and that's worth waiting - 
a little - for.

I do hope you will be able to sort out your difficulties, but if you are some-
body who likes quick decisions - as I am - and marry somebody who likes to
wait until issues fall apart - as my husband is - then prepare yourself for
periodic spells of frustration!

Best wishes.     Joana

    What disturbes me is that it seems like you are not comfortable
    with living with him. If I may give you a word of advice, Never
    compromise your integrity for anyone! If it leaves you with a bad
    feeling you shouldn't do it. Living a lie is very difficult. My
    goal is to get through life with as little excess baggage as I can
    carry.
    
    Kate 

               
    	Re 401-
    
    	His wanting to wait may be a credit to his intelligence. An
    obvious fact in this society is that marriages do not typically
    last for their intended duration. A less obvious fact is "why".
    
    	Maybe he knows a little bit about "why" and would like to see
    if his observations fit his expectation of they way things could
    be for the both of you. Perhaps not wanting try an change you to fit
    his expectations, he just wants to see where you'll grow to during
    this time he apparently feels comfortable with. Maybe he's observing 
    his own growth too and will be looking at the relative directions; 
    are they together or apart? Maybe he's aware of the work, committment 
    and sacrifice it takes for two people to grow together and want to
    see how that works out first. Before he "signs the papers"...
    
    	Divorce hurts people. Marriage therefore has a lot to be considered
    besides "How you feel about each other today" or whatever. Good
    Luck! 
    
    	Joe Jas
         

    re.0
    
    Rick & I had the opposite problem.  He wanted to get married _now_,
    and I wanted to wait 5 or 6 years, at least.  I was 18 at the time.
    
    He moved in with me [I already had an apartment]. And a year later
    we got married.  
    
    I was afraid of losing my identity.  I wanted to be Annie, even
    considered changing my name to my _real_ family name [long story],
    -- not Porter's daughter or Rick's wife.  I wanted a partnership
    based on love and friendship, not based on formal ties and ownership.
    
    What I learned much later is that Rick didn't want to own me.  The
    notion of being responsible for me scared him witless!!!
        
    Rick found it hard to believe that I was truly committed to spending
    my life with him because I didn't want to get married.  To his mind
    it followed so naturally Love==>Commitment==>Marriage.
    
    I just didn't get it.  I still don't.  We've been married 14 years
    and I have no regrets, but I don't get it.
    
    I know it's important to Rick to be married and I accept that. 
    I am happy to spend my life with him and being married to him hasn't
    stifled my individuality in the least.  He doesn't want to be seen
    as part of a set any more than I do.
    
    EXAMPLE:  He has a picture of me on his desk. Someone commented
    on the picture saying, 'Your wife?' He replied, 'Her name is Annie,
    she not _MY_ anything.' [this was reported to me by a friend
    who works with both of them]
    
    I would never be one to say to you, 'If you want him you'll wait for
    him' because it sounds too much like someone calling the shots and
    you giving over control of something important to you.  Yet, if
    he doesn't want to get married there is a chance that he may balk
    if the issue is forced.  In some ways the 'if you loving him...'
    scenario appears to what you are acting out -- you are not happy
    with the situation, and he's not open to compromise?  Perhaps talking
    out expectations and dreams and plans will bring you closer to
    consensus than talking about timing.  It's what worked for us.
    
    I do wonder why you are living together, as you do not seem too happy
    about it.  I would like to think that, at the very least, the two
    principles involved would find this a happy choice to make. 
    
    Take care of yourself.
    
      Ann
    

	I broke off with the woman who is now my wife because I felt I was
	being rushed into something I wasn't ready for. I finially came 
	around but only after I grew up a bit. I think I would have been
	better off waiting still a little longer but that was 12 years
	ago and we made out ok.

	Living together is probably making it easier for him to delay a
	more final commitment. That is something you may want to think
	about. Especially if you are not completely confortable with living
	together without being married.

			Alfred

    Lets see if we can be a devils advocate here, and consider some aspects
    not alrady mentioned, although one one needs to be understood. 
    
    The argument (the DIFFERENCE of opinion) is that each has a different
    time frame for a major event, and neither seems to be comfortable with
    a negotiated "average", for very good reasons. 
    
    The first key, i think, is to find out the basis for the particular
    time frame, (as already suggested by someone else). 
    
    A side thought: This may be irrelevant, but what incentive does he
    have, if he's already having you as a live-in "SO" ? 
    
    Another aside: What is the purpose of living together if you live in
    fear of being "caught" by someone important ? 
    
    There's is inadequate information in .0 to justify this, but why
    not just separate and each live in their own apartment ? Then the
    "fear" pressures will be taken off, and whatever it is you do living
    together you can still do during the week.
    
    I do have first hand knowledge of a young man (age 20) who refused to
    bend to 'bestial' and/or 'girl friend' pressures becaues he "knew" he
    needed time to mature before settling down to a "bound life" to just
    one woman. This was because he observed many of his friends parents;
    their divorces, and wanted a better chance at success AFTER he matured
    to the point of being able to handle being 'married'. 
    
    Whatever it is you beau is looking for/or needs with such a time frame
    MUST be understood. At another time/another place there was a very
    lovely/charming woman who just "knew" that with a little pressure, some
    good company, and a few other 'incentives' that she could get her boy
    friend to marry sooner than he planned to get married. She married
    someone else, because some men don't like being manipulated into
    someone elses schedule. 
    
    Well, good luck
    
    Bob
    

    Two scenarios:
    
    	My sister is happily married after a 4-month engagement
    	A friend married the person she had lived with for 7 years;
    	  they were divorced within the year
    
    Two stories, four individuals, two outcomes.  Only you and he can
    determine whether you're "ready".  I echo the sentiments of others
    -- if you're uncomfortable living with him, for fear that you may
    be "found out", why have you been living with him?
    
    Is your goal to get married, or to have a healthy relationship?
    Try to take an objective look at the relationship to see what's
    there and whether or not you want to continue.  If you're not happy
    with things as they are, what would it take to change that?  Staying
    in the relationship, or moving on?  Only you can make that decision.
    
    
    Judi
    

    My situation is similar: my boyfriend wants to get married and I
    do not.  I've been married before, so I'm in no rush to do it again.
    
    His theory is that relationships don't last because people are not
    committed.  He feels that it's too easy for people to get out of
    relationships, but if they are married they will try harder to
    keep the relationship.  I don't agree.  I think if someone really
    wants to walk, they will.  This is a sore spot for us, but has not
    become a real pressing issue (yet).
    
    I found something that helped me:  write down your goals on a piece
    of paper concerning your relatiionship with him (marriage, children,
    etc) and put it in an envelope and seal it.  Write a date on the
    front (six months is good).  Drop the subject with your boyfriend
    for now.  The more you talk about it, the more you will aggravate
    him.  Open the envelope in six months and re-evalute your goals.
    If you really feel as strongly as you do now, and your boyfriend
    does also, you may want to rethink the relationship.  However,
    you may find that the six months has worked to your advantage.
    
    Think positive!
    
    Linnea

    I really don't know what to tell you - you'll just have to figure
    out what's right for you.  Maybe age has something to do with it
    - if you're fairly young (say, early 20's?) then patience might
    be a good thing.
    
    I've been in just about the same situation you're in.  But I've
    been married, and I've been divorced for a long time, and I think
    I *really* know what I want and what I don't want, and I know myself
    pretty well.  So, I don't feel that I need to wait forever to make
    up my mind.  Do you think the relationship will basically change
    or stay the same if you get married?  What does he think?  Better
    be sure you both have the same expectations along those lines.
    
    If you're both happy together now, and he hasn't lost his
    individuality, then why would he lose it after marriage?  Would
    something in the relationship change?  If the relationship is
    already good, they why would marriage have to change that?
    
    As far as the resentment, I understand that, too.  I don't know
    what your expectations were about living together, but if
    the expectation was "let's live together while we're waiting to
    get married" and marriage was seen on the horizon, and then he
    backed off, you've definitely got a reason to feel resentment.
    
    On the other hand, if you always knew about his time constraints,
    it sounds as though you accepted that when you moved in together.
    What's difficult to realize though, is how you'll feel about living
    together until you're actually doing it.  It sounds great, until
    you feel others don't take you seriously as someone important to
    him, or really feel that your "living in sin" is wrong.  You don't
    really know how it feels until you actually do it.
    
    If I were to pull some advice out of the air, I'd probably suggest
    moving out.  I'd definitely talk with him and try to determine
    why he wants to stick with those time limits.  If he's waiting to
    be *sure* that marriage is the right thing, then that could be a
    looong time - you just can't be *sure* in advance.  You just do
    the best you can.  Maybe one day out of the blue, he'll decide he
    wants to marry you.  But chances are, he won't while you're pressuring
    him.  Maybe take a couple months to back off, and see if he becomes
    more interested.  If he still isn't, then maybe back off a little
    more, and start dating others.
    
    Do you REALLY feel that he's the right man for *you*?  And that
    you're the right woman for him?  If he wanted to marry you tomorrow,
    would *you* still want to get married?
                                            
    Good luck.

I sympathize with how you feel and the quandry you are in. My situation was
similar though a little different. I also knew before he did that I wanted
to get married and settle down. I did put some pressure on him to make up
his mind. In our case the issue was did we want to make that committment
to each other or not - he was not saying he knew we'd get married some
day. Around October of that year I came to the conclusion that if he had
not made up his mind by the next June (which would of made 2 years together),
then he was never going to make up his mind. (I was 28 and he was 29, so we
weren't real young). I also felt that I needed to take care of myself, and
that I didn't want to stay in a non-committed relationship forever, and that
by June I would probably leave.

Well He spent some time thinking about what was important to him, about
our relationship, he talked to some friends of his about his confusion and
he worked it out. We got engaged that December and then married in June of
1985.

The funny thing was on our honeymoon I felt real panic as "My God what have
I done - I am now trapped!". I had not thought through all my feelings as
clearly as he had in making the decision to settle down.  I now realize
that the committment is what is important, and marriage is only a symbol
of that committment (and there are other ways to have that committment besides
marriage). I did work through my feelings and we are still very happy.

I think what you both need to think about is how do you see marriage changing
your relationship. It sounds like you feel it will be better, and he is
afraid it might be worse. (Just a thought). What will marriage give you that
you don't have now? Can you get those things without being married? What
is he afraid of in marriage? I think we often get hung up on the idea
of a wedding and marriage, instead of thinking about the relationship and
where we want it to go, and what our committment is to the other person.

I also think you need to take care of yourself and your needs. As has been
said before if you are not comfortable living with him, then don't do it.
Also can you just decide to be open about your relationship at work? It
is very difficult if you are having to hide your relationship and your
feelings about it. I am not sure what the situation is, but that could be
adding to your need to resolve things.

It's a lot to think about  - Good Luck and let us know how things are going.

Muggsie