T.R | Title | User | Personal Name | Date | Lines |
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377.1 | Subtle power; confused as courtesy by the unsubtle | PRYDE::ERVIN | Roots & Wings... | Tue Jan 10 1989 21:16 | 61 |
| I think there is a clear difference re: door holding. And I use door
holding as a euphemism. What I think most of this discussion boils down to
is an issue of power and control.
Your description, Justine, especially of the man who 'guides' women through
doors by touching us someplace is a phenominon that is described in detail
in Nancy Henley's book, Body Politics, which has been reprinted and now
available in your favorite local feminist (I mean strident feminist)
bookstore.
BTW, I have also found that men need to guide women out of elevators with
the same kind of physical contact that is also used to guide us through
doors. Elevator behaviour is the same. It drives me crazy if a man is
closest to the door and won't just get on with it so the rest of the world
can get into the elevator without so much ado. The same is true of getting
out of elevators.
Anyway, not to get derailed here, there are clearly a lot of issues around
touch, time, etc., which are examined in Nancy's book. How often do we see
a male manager walk up to the (usually) female secretary who is perhaps
seated in her chair and the man will put his hand on her arm or back as he
talks to her. This *is* power and an issue of who gets to touch whom.
Would that secretary walk up to the male manager who is seated and put her
hand on his arm or back as she talked to him? I think not.
Time is another vehicle for exercising the issue of who has power or
importance. How many of you have been cured while waiting in the waiting
room of a doctor? You make an appointment for 2:00 out of your busy
schedule, perhaps juggling work responsibilities or needing to pick up kids
from school/daycare, or you have someplace else to be at 4:00, and then how
long do you wait? Isn't is more likely that you get seen at 2:30 or
beyond? I find that this behaviour is worse with male doctors. Since I
now only go to female doctors I have found that my time spent sitting
around waiting rooms has been dramatically reduced. In fact, if a doctor,
either male or female, were to be habitually late with appointments, I
would change doctors.
This same time tactic is used with interviewees for jobs. How many times
have you showed up for an interview appointment only to have the interview
start 10 or 15 minutes late? This is power also. This says, your time is
less important than my time. Etc.
The same dynamics carry over to space, language, body movement, eye
contact. Nancy Henley's book was originally published in 1977 and it is
still as timely today as it was in 1977. And that's a sad commentary on
how far we have supposedly come in 12 years.
Which reminds me of that 'delightful' advertisement for some cigarette that
was marketed toward women..."you've come a long way, baby..." Not too
insulting. Adult women being referred to as 'baby'.
Robin Tyler did a brilliant routine about this particular commercial and
how these types of advertisements debase the fact that the equal rights
movement is a civil rights movement.
As the old saying goes...I haven't travelled far, and I haven't travelled
wide, but I've been a broad for all of my life... Language, terminology,
touch, time, economics, all can be used/abused for power and control.
Laura
|
377.2 | Lucky Me | SLOVAX::HASLAM | Creativity Unlimited | Wed Jan 11 1989 13:18 | 13 |
| I guess I'm fortunate in that I'm confident enough in myself and
who I am that these are not issues with me. I'll go through a door
no matter who holds it, and I find that I appreciate courtesy from
anyone and I could care less about power plays or how it looks to
others. I'm me and that's what's most important in my life, being
able to be myself. Others know this about me, so they don't worry
about manipulating me. It feels good, and I hope that there are
other women out there who don't have to put up with these kinds
of problems. I feel for you.
In Sisterhood-
Barb
|
377.3 | much ado about nothing | NSSG::ALFORD | another fine mess.... | Wed Jan 11 1989 14:28 | 22 |
|
re (-.1)
I agree!!! I have read several of these notes on 'door holding'
(though I must admit I 'next unseen'ed past most) and just
shook my head. Really, isn't common courtesy just that??
While I readily admit it ISN"T very common anymore, why should
one read into 'nice' actions something which probably isn't
there---and if something does underlie the courtesy my
bi****ing about it certainly isn't going to enamor me to
that person, or change their problems!
Funny, though, when discussing door-holding...the only time
anyone has ever not readily entered while I held...was shortly
after I moved from Chicago to Tenn...and I held the door for
an elderly lady. I practically had to drag her through the
door, as she was very disturbed by me holding it. I couldn't
figure it out for several minutes....then I finally realized...
I am white...she was black. Now, maybe door holding has
racial overtones too? oh well...
|
377.4 | | APEHUB::STHILAIRE | Don't Take It So Hard | Wed Jan 11 1989 14:47 | 13 |
| I'll go through a door no matter who holds it, too, but I also
understand what .0, and .1, are saying. I've noticed these things
and I think they're right about some of the hidden meanings. Just
because a person (woman) feels good about herself, and is confident,
and successful, and happy, because sexism hasn't managed to touch
upon her life, doesn't mean that it isn't going on out there. I
think it's important to be aware of what's going on with other people
in the world and not just ourselves. I don't think it's fair to
blame some women for being bothered by the fact that some men may
be using courtly traditions to try to control them.
Lorna
|
377.5 | They don't mean it, the poor slobs | 2EASY::PIKET | | Wed Jan 11 1989 15:13 | 16 |
|
I don't think it is necessarily a power play. I mean how much power
does holding a stupid door represent, anyway? I think that in the
case where a man holds a door only because I am a woman, it is simply
the way he was brought up. It may just be a (bad) habit. This doesn't
tell me that he has a habit of discrimination toward women.
It can be annoying because of the physical
awkwardness involved when somebody goes out of their (and your)
way to hold a door, but I don't get offended as a woman.
I agree in general that little things can signify a lot when it comes
to sexist behavior, but I personally don't think that door holding
is one of those things.
Roberta
|
377.7 | | BOSHOG::STRIFE | but for.....i wouldn't be me. | Wed Jan 11 1989 15:54 | 19 |
|
I've been reading the general discussion re "door holding". I was
struck by the comment that traditional manners can be used as power
plays - and I've seen them used to put the little woman in her place.
But what hit me was an incident from last fall which I knew annoyed
me but I couldn't quite figure out why.
I was invited to dinner at his house by a man I'd seen a couple of
times before. He lived about 10 or so miles from me and I knew how to
get to his house. I asked what time I should be there - assuming
that it made sense for me to drive myself over there - but he insisted
that he would come and pick me up. Seemed silly to me but I put
it down to the courtly behavior of a 50+ year old man and sorta
ignored the fact that it annoyed me. I realize now what annoyed
me - he used "manners" to attempt to control me. Without my own
car I had to be dependent upon him to take me home. It became very
difficult for me to make a graceful exit if things weren't going
well, I got tired of his "advances", or I was tired( etc., etc.
etc.)
|
377.8 | | COGMK::CHELSEA | Mostly harmless. | Wed Jan 11 1989 15:55 | 18 |
| Re: .5
>I don't think it is necessarily a power play.
Me neither, but I rarely think that any action is *necessarily*
anything else. As I've said before, it's a question of what motivates
the action. The distinction is difficult (nigh unto impossible)
to make on a casual level.
>I mean how much power does holding a stupid door represent, anyway?
It can imply an attitude of "Women need men to take care of them
and shield them from all difficulties or exertions because they
really can't cope." The 'protection' can shift to control. By
not allowing a woman to do things by herself, you can limit her
activities. Rather like the stereotype of the over-protective mother.
If you can't cross the street without mommy holding your hand, you
don't get to go very far on your own.
|
377.9 | | AQUA::WALKER | | Wed Jan 11 1989 16:32 | 12 |
| A man helping a woman on with her coat and then holding the door
for her can mistakenly appear that they are a couple leaving
together.
At a singles function this can appear to be or be interpreted as
'scooping' on, the part of the male even though it may not be so.
The woman thinks he is simply being polite. While the man is
getting visual credit for picking her up. A man once told me
that if he wanted to appear to be more popular than he actually
was he would plan to be at the door at the right time and the
other men would see him apparently leaving with a woman.
|
377.10 | _not_ holding a door open :-) | ULTRA::ZURKO | Words like winter snowflakes | Wed Jan 11 1989 16:51 | 13 |
| I would be really interested if any of the women who think that door holding is
never a power play, and is always just politeness, have had the following sort
of thing happen to them:
1) woman gets to door first and holds door open for approaching man
2) man
a) stands and stares/grins
b) man reaches behind woman and takes door from her
It's happened enough to me to look like a pattern. And I must admit, I assume
it's because they can't let a woman hold a door open for them, for some reason
(I have never had a woman do either of the above to me).
Mez
|
377.11 | a funny thing happened... | MEWVAX::AUGUSTINE | Purple power! | Wed Jan 11 1989 19:28 | 18 |
| as i was leaving my building tonight, i saw a manager talking to
one of his direct reports (a relatively high-level woman). as they
were preparing to end their impromptu meeting, he "playfully" whacked
her on the shoulder with a rolled-up memo. in trying to figure out
why this made me feel so uncomfortable, i asked myself a few questions:
- would he have whacked a male direct report? (possible, but less likely.
it still would make me feel uncomfortable)
- would he have whacked a peer? (i suspect not)
- would he have whacked his wife? (*sigh*)
- would he have whacked his boss?
- a dec v.p.?
- k.o.?
my suspicion is that the action was less playful and more an attempt to
assert power. sad... and i consider the residents of my building to be
relatively enlightened.
liz
|
377.12 | | CIVIC::JOHNSTON | OK, _why_ is it illegal? | Thu Jan 12 1989 08:31 | 55 |
| re.10
Yes, I have seen the behaviour you describe [man standing back or
reaching behind a woman] and have experienced it myself from time
to time. While I would agree that it is most probably a power play,
it fails for me as I most certainly do not feel dis-empowered.
I merely feel that the gentleman is behaving like an ass, and a
foolish one at that. I am mildly offended, much the same way I am
offended by the distasteful sludge that inevitably accumulates under
my refrigerator.
Probably the most blatant example I have ever encountered of this
behaviour is exhibited by a woman in my group. No one, absolutely
no one, can open or hold a door for her. She always opens and holds
doors for other people. Even when her hands are full she will execute
gargantuan feats of juggling to get doors when others' hands are
empty. Even when our boss [another woman] had the door one day
when the three of us were returning from a meeting, this woman would
not, even upon gentle prompting, pass through the door. I find
the behaviour in a woman equally distasteful.
I strongly agree that some men [and apparently women] are opening my
doors for the wrong reasons. However, I am grateful that these people
are an overwhelming minority. For the most part, my encounters with
men, women & doors are pleasant little affirmations of the humanity of
those around me. When they are not, I do what feels right at the time
-- usually walking through the door or relinquishing the door with
what my ex-boss Bill used to call 'smirking wonderment.'
As I have noticed a decline in patronising behaviour at doors, I
choose to keep me good humour and just assume that the assistance
is well intentioned unless blatantly otherwise.
re.11
I have most often observed the 'playful whacking' behaviour among
male peers, generally young male peers. Never at the end of meetings,
usually in doors and hallways [why _do_ doors keep popping up?]
I find the idea of whacking a subordinant an extremely offensive
exhibit of power. I suspect that the woman was gaining in stature
and was being perceived as a threat to the manager's status, therefore
he put her in her place. I would imagine that this would happen
to subordinates of both sexes, although more frequently to women
as women have not traditionally been powerful and thus the perceived
threat is heightened. Such behaviour reflects poorly on the manager's
self-esteem.
Ann
|
377.13 | "Whacking" on Wall Street... | NEXUS::CONLON | | Thu Jan 12 1989 09:23 | 24 |
| One interesting thing that I noticed in the movie
"Wall Street" was that the character played by
Michael Douglas had the habit of "whacking" his
male subordinates (in what looked like a form of
affection.) He "whacked" Charlie Sheen so hard
a couple of times that the actor himself (Sheen)
looked a bit like he was in pain, even though the
whacks were surely meant to be affirmative in some
way.
Michael Douglas did not whack his peers in this movie
(although he liked to whack his subordinates after
making DEALS with his peers.) :-)
It looked like a combination between affection and
a power play to me (i.e., "Yes, you please me as a
subordinate, but don't forget for a single second that
I'm still the boss and that I can crush you if you screw
up.")
By the way, I don't recall seeing Michael Douglas whack
any women in the movie (but maybe because there were no
prominent women in the movie who were doing the kind of
work that Charlie Sheen and Michael Douglas did.)
|
377.14 | | ATPS::GREENHALGE | Mouse | Thu Jan 12 1989 09:31 | 8 |
| re: .2
Barb,
I couldn't have said it any better.
Thank you,
Beckie
|
377.15 | hmmmm... | LEZAH::BOBBITT | persistence of vision | Thu Jan 12 1989 09:32 | 38 |
| I never really complain when men open doors for me, although if
I'm walking and talking with a man and he opens and holds a door
for me to walk through, I do the same for him the next door we come
to. Kind of keeps 'em off guard ;).
However, now that I think about it, it does have something to do with
power - when a man opens a door and holds it for a women. It must. It
is a sort of benevolent gift bestowed upon the woman, it is to be
appreciated and acknowledged as such. I guess I stumbled upon this
realization after we started our recent discussion of doors and opening
them here. The next time a man held the door open for me (when we were
walking in the same direction), I kind of looked at myself inwardly
while it happened. And I noticed the most remarkable thing. And I
noticed it again the next time it happened. And the next. The man
would put their arm just a tad above my head level. This kind of
encouraged me to lower my head a bit as I walked through the door.
The declined head gracefully came accompanied by a "thank you" or
sometimes a "chivalry is *not* dead" remark on my part (although
I am kind of baffled by having doors opened for me, it's still new
enough to feel like a compliment (perhaps a slightly backhanded
compliment, but one nonetheless)), and a meekish looking smile on
my part.
I don't know how I got into this way of reacting - I never really
thought about it. A friend of mine who used to go to Georgia Tech
told me there were some southern belles at that school who would
stand up and stroll over to the door as if to leave, and then wait
until a man got up and opened it for her. She could NOT open it
for herself (due to previous conditioning, no doubt).
Now, NONE of this is malicious. I doubt many people open doors
with malice aforethought - or with the intent to disempower someone.
But I'm glad we're looking at this, it brings to light how subtle,
daily things can be questioned, and perhaps even changed if enough
people are uncomfortable with it.
-Jody
|
377.16 | | 2EASY::PIKET | | Thu Jan 12 1989 09:57 | 18 |
|
re: .8
Yes, I understand what people are saying about the attitude implied
in door holding. I was only saying in .5 that I think people are
reading too much into it. If a man is taught that holding a door
for a woman is "being polite", then that is why he does it. Not
because he is trying to retain power over her. I agreed that it
is sometimes silly, when the man goes out of his way to hold the
door (coming up behind you, as someone mentioned), I just don't
think it indicates a power play. I still maintain it is usually
just a habit from years of training and should be taken that way.
I do agree that if a man wanted to pick me up in his car just to
bring me back to his house, rather than having me drive myself over,
I would consider it a power play!
Roberta
|
377.17 | many 'grey' areas... | NSSG::ALFORD | another fine mess.... | Thu Jan 12 1989 10:27 | 19 |
| re: .16
I agree. I think politeness is all too often thought of as
'powerplay' when *most* of the time its just courtesy...
like giving your seat on the bus to an elder/disabled/pregnant
person who would otherwise have to stand. (not being gender
specific here, as I have often given up my seat to an older
man...) Courtesy should live...but chilvalry...that's another
story. The comment about 'being driven' for no reason is
one of those chilvarious things which I agree IS a power play.
fine line, I know, but maybe one could test their action by
simply asking "would i do this for a person of the same
gender/age/race/whatever" or am I doing this to be 'courtly'...
And in the business context, 'courtly' isn't wanted, or needed.
If you are dating...maybe that's different....but maybe not...
deb
|
377.18 | Touch not equal to common courtesy | PRYDE::ERVIN | Roots & Wings... | Thu Jan 12 1989 10:46 | 27 |
| re: .2
I don't think that these issues have anything to do with how secure
or insecure a woman feels, vis a vie men. Also, the courtly behaviour
stuff is a euphemism.
All these rituals, however, set the stage whereby it becomes easier
for certain lines to be crossed. The examples of men touching women,
managers touching their direct reports, etc., are demonstrations
of power.
I don't know about other women in this file, but I sure as hell
don't like being touched by a total stranger, as is the case when
a man holds the door and guides me through it by touching me, or
guides me out of an elevator. I have not experienced totally unknown
women taking such liberties with my person by touching me. In fact,
I view this kind of behaviour as a *violation* of common
courtesy...strangers should keep their hands to themselves. Managers
should not touch direct reports (other than handshakes), etc.
I have been a manager for 6 years and have not found it necessary
to 'paw' my direct reports.
Laura
|
377.19 | a door is like an electron... | MOSAIC::IANNUZZO | Catherine T. | Thu Jan 12 1989 11:32 | 40 |
| I agree that door-holding, of itself, is not the world's most important
issue. However, I don't think that we would have had the storm of
highly emotional responses to that topic if it did not somehow represent
a larger issue that IS important. Our lives are mostly made up of
seemingly insignificant activities, but just like looking at the
behavior of sub-atomic particles can give us insight into the nature of
the universe, so can looking at these "insignificant" details we give us
insight into the more universal fabric of our lives.
I think Justine's analysis in .0 is quite accurate. I can't imagine all
this excitement being generated over acts of simple human courtesy; but
the phenomenon of "courtly behavior" deserves another look. I realize
that many people who engage in "courtly" behavior are merely following
custom, without any particular personal motivation. However, if we look
at the implications and effects of the custom, whether or not they are
personally intended by the participants, we can see a more
institutionalized social message that is not just about politeness.
Jody's note on looking at how she felt inside while being the recipient
of this harmless custom might be very interesting and useful exercise
for all concerned. For myself, I have noticed that although politely
intended, being the recipient of "chivalrous" behavior can make me feel
quite uncomfortable. First of all, it points out the fact that I am
WOMAN and the other is MAN, and that this distinction transcends any
merely human interaction we may have based on the particular
circumstances. I am proud to be a woman, but in some ways this
kind of thing seems to erase my identity as an individual person, who is
a woman, with a socially-designated WOMAN identity that may or may not
have anything to do with me as an individual person. I experience this
kind of erasure as a sort of suffocation. My physical body
has become the public determiner of what I will do, how I will be
treated, and who I will be in this interaction. At no time am *I* being
acknowledged as the one who should decide these things for herself.
Denying anyone the right to determine their own identity is the essence
of oppression, no matter how polite it may seem to be or how much for
"one's own good". Granted that oppression in the matter of doors and coats
is itself extremely trivial, but it does not exist in a vaccuum any more
than electrons exist without all the rest of the space/time continuum we
know. It is a completely normal and consistent expression of a larger
social universe.
|
377.20 | re: .19 | 2EASY::PIKET | | Thu Jan 12 1989 11:59 | 12 |
|
I see your point. If I had been exposed to more overt sexism in my life,
I might feel threatened by a man going out of his way to hold a
door (courtly doorholding as opposed to normal polite door holding).
Instead I just see these men as relics of another time. Eventually
they will all die out like the dinosaurs!
Maybe if most or even many men did this it would upset me, but it
happens so infrequently I can't take it seriously as a threat.
Roberta
|
377.21 | | COGMK::CHELSEA | Mostly harmless. | Thu Jan 12 1989 13:02 | 44 |
| Re: .19 first (?) paragraph
I was pondering something along those lines myself. My problem
with much of this discussion is based (as usual) on the language
used. I don't agree that men in general use courtesy to control
women. This implies a conscious decision/intent by the men and
I don't think this is the case. Rather, I would have said that
the courtesies men are taught to use can reinforce the perception
of women as inferior. So it's not that men aren't exerting control
over women, but that they're creating the effect without (in general)
malice aforethought.
This ties into something else that has been bothering me. It's
taken a while to articulate it to my satisfaction. In the original
topic, one man said, "I'm not going to risk getting my head lopped
off for opening doors -- I just won't open any more doors for women."
And one response was "Oh, so if you can't control the situation,
you'll just get out of it? Can't stand being out of control?"
This seems to be a manifestation of the idea of men as THE ENEMY.
Men are assumed to have machiavellian motives for any action. I
doubt the man was worried about control, at least on a conscious
level. If you did a study of the effectiveness of reinforcement
techniques, it's a good bet that random negative reinforcement is
a pretty effective way of discouraging a behavior. Rather than
seeing the man's reaction in terms of human behavior, one person
decided to view it as a devious response of THE ENEMY.
The "man as ENEMY" attitude crept into the rape vs withholding rathole.
Analogies are a way of approximating the unknown. I don't understand
something, so you compare it to something I do understand in hopes
of helping learn the new concept. Mike was very explicit on the
point of similarity in his analogy. He's not female and he's never
been raped, so his understanding of that concept is not as complete
as a woman's or a rape victim's. However, he does understand the
concept of victimization and the idea of sex being used as a weapon.
So, while he might not have a woman's understanding of rape, he
has begun to approximate it. He was criticized for trying to discount
the severity of rape, to 'soften' it; this was seen as insulting
and denigrating. Part of this arose, I think, from a misunderstanding
of what the analogy was trying to state and/or accomplish. Part
of it is attributable to the fact that Mike cannot see rape in quite
the same light as women. Because it's not as threatening to him,
he can have difficulty in expressing the idea in terms satisfactory
to those with a different understanding.
|
377.22 | Power plays, doors, and junior high school, oh my! | VINO::EVANS | Aak! Electronic Cucumbers!! | Thu Jan 12 1989 13:07 | 43 |
| As I said in the "day and night" note - good manners requires that
the act being performed makes EASIER the life of the "perform-ee".
IF the act embarrasses the receiver, calls attention to the doer,
or if the doer cannot perform it smoothly and unobtrusively (perhaps
"unINtrusively is better) , then it shouldn't be done.
RE: power plays vs politeness
Body language speaks volumes. More than words, in fact. If we feel
that something is a power play, it probably is, even if we can't
put our fingers on exactly *how*.
When I taught school, I had that marvelous extra duty of patrolling
the cafeteria during lunch time. (You can't *imagine*! Don't ask!)
Anyway, I had come across a particularly rowdy table and told them
to stay put after the rest were dismissed.
The principal dismissed the room, and they started to get up (worth
a try, you know). I told 'em "Sit down and stay sat." The principal
looked over and saw they weren't moving, kept motioning them to
leave, all the while I was shaking my head "no!" at him. He totally
ignored me, and didn't stop until they left the room.
I went up to him later, in the hall, and told him I had wanted them
to stay, as I had a few choice words about their behaviour. He
apologized. Profusely. It was downright heart-rending.
Only thing was, he was 6'3" - I'm 5'5" - and the whole time he was
apologizing, he was leaning over me with his hands on the wall above
my head - I was trapped against the wall.
Was he being polite? Yes. Verbally. According to the Rules of Good
Behaviour, he was apologizing for his action.
But what did anyone *watching* this scene see? A powerful male hovering
over a female in a semi-threatening manner. What did people *think*
was happening? That *I* was being called on the carpet. That *I*
was being yelled at. That *I* had screwed up.
That's the thing about power plays. They're subtle.
--DE
|
377.23 | | RAINBO::TARBET | | Thu Jan 12 1989 13:22 | 12 |
| <--(.21)
� If you did a study of the effectiveness of reinforcement
� techniques, it's a good bet that random negative reinforcement is
� a pretty effective way of discouraging a behavior.
Actually, Chelsea, *constant* negative reinforcement is needed to
eradicate a behavior (unless it's never very satisfying to begin
with). Random positive reinforcement will increase the behavior,
but the reverse isn't true.
=maggie
|
377.24 | ? | VINO::EVANS | Aak! Electronic Cucumbers!! | Thu Jan 12 1989 13:39 | 12 |
| RE: .21
Chelsea, you quoted something that was similar to something I said
in another note. If you were, indeed, quoting me, please do so
accurately and in context.
If you weren't quoting me, ignore the previous sentence.
Thanks,
--DE
|
377.25 | | 2EASY::PIKET | | Thu Jan 12 1989 14:22 | 11 |
|
re: last paragraph of .21
I don't want to go down this rathole again, but since I was one
of the people who responded to Mike's statement, I want to make
it clear that I understood PERFECTLY what his analogy was about.
I think that is beside the point. My previous opinion of what he
said still stands.
Roberta
|
377.26 | | COGMK::CHELSEA | Mostly harmless. | Thu Jan 12 1989 14:25 | 8 |
| Re: .24
I have no idea who I was referencing. I don't consider that as
important as the ideas expressed, so I'm not interested in tracking
down the exact notes and quotes.
So, just to make things clear, both the male and female voices were
paraphrased and were not quotes.
|
377.27 | | COGMK::CHELSEA | Mostly harmless. | Thu Jan 12 1989 14:31 | 12 |
| Re: .23
>*constant* negative reinforcement is needed to eradicate a behavior
But what is needed to discourage it? I'm well aware that the
effectiveness of random negative reinforcement in any case depends
on the value of the action, the negative value of the reinforcement
and the individual's assessment of the risks. So I'm not going
to claim that behavior can be eliminated by random negative
reinforcement. I do believe that the incidence of that behavior
ove the group will drop, though, as some individuals decide that
it isn't worth it.
|
377.28 | | RAINBO::TARBET | | Thu Jan 12 1989 14:54 | 4 |
| Well, you've put your finger on it: what's the *perceived*
cost:benefit ratio. That's true whether for discouraging or
eliminating a behavior and is pretty independent of the level of the
organism (but not of prior experience).
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377.29 | BUT told you how I feel | METOO::LEEDBERG | Render Unto Peaches | Thu Jan 12 1989 16:03 | 25 |
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If a certain behavior gets the doer attention - and any kind
of attention is the doer's goal - then the only way to possibly
set the doer to stop is by ignoring the doer when exhibiting
the unwanted behavior. The problem with this is that the
ignoring has to be universal and constant.
Now if the goal is not to "just get attention" then a resonable
request presented in a rational manner should get the doer to
stop the unwanted behavior - atleast when the doer is interacting
with the requestor.
IMHO
If you value a person then you will respect their wishes, if you
do not value that person then not only will you not respect their
wishes but you will probably flaunt your disrespect whenever
possible and that is most certainly a power play.
_peggy
(-)
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I think I am in deep water here....
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377.30 | Just say YES! to courtesy door holding | TSG::DOUGHERTY | | Thu Jan 12 1989 16:14 | 34 |
| Justine,
Yes, I know exactly what you're talking about! The first kind
of door handling (human courtesy) feels really nice. It's
a courtesy being shown by one person to another.
The second, ("courtly") feels gross, icky, or just plain uncomfortable
depending on the _yuck_ factor of the person holding the door.
I also agree with Laura in .2. It's _definitely_ a power issue.
Sometimes, I want to laugh right out loud when it's so _obvious_
that, that's what's going on!
To deal with the "courtly" behavior, I think it helps to find your own
way of turning it around to be a self-empowering experience. Whether
that is to wait until
the other person walks through the door first (til the sun sets or
rises again, if necessary; trust me it works! :-) ) or to draw a protective
mental "shield" around yourself and walk through the doorway. You can
even visualize the weird feeling being deflected off of you back to
the sender or anything else that works for you.
I haven't run into door handling situations as much as the "arm
around the shoulder" buddy routine in
the hallways (at two of my former jobs). There, it was definitely
a power issue being played out.
It happened to me 4 different times and every man moved his arm when I
put mine around his waste. And all 4 of them had a weird, puzzled look on
their face as they removed their arm like they couldn't figure out
what just happened. But, none of them ever tried it again! :-)
- Mary
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