Conference turris::womannotes-v2

	Just some food for thought, here...
    In womannotes-v1, there were several discussions of women and religion:
    
    257 - Feminist Thealogy (also discusses a workshop called "Cakes for
    		the Queen of Heaven" - about women and religion)
    457 - Women in the Church
    518 - Beliefs in Early Civilization
    642 - Women in the Bible
    748 - Creation Images
    
    In womannotes-v2, there were two discussions
    
    84  - Beliefs in Early Civilization (continuation of V1 discussion)
    85  - Are Feminism and Christianity Compatible?
    
    Now...back to our regularly scheduled discussion...

    -Jody
    

    Hi Jay--
    
    This is an *excellent* topic, and a great way to do research.  I
    can tell you about my own search as far as my own spirituality:
    
    I was baptised in to the Episcopal faith, and it was fine for me
    for many years.  As a child and a teenager, I was involved in choir
    and other youth activities that I enjoyed.  But as I grew older,
    went off to college, moved away from home--I drifted away from it,
    and seldom went to church.  I continued to pray and to read the
    Bible, however.
    
    I started going to Bible study groups;  sometimes a different one
    each year--I started becoming more curious about what it meant in
    our times, and specifically, in my life.  One study group lead me
    to become born again, which made me feel part of a religious life
    again.  But being born again does not necessarily mean you become
    a member of a particular church.  I tried going to a pentecostal
    church for a while, and didn't like it.  As my upbringing was formal
    Episcopal, all that hand-waving and speaking in tongues disturbed
    me.  So I was off again--looking for a church or group to belong
    to.
    
    I entered a note in the CHRISTIAN conference, asking for a good
    Bible study in the area.  I thought that I could find what I wanted
    in a group, perhaps--maybe "church" per se wasn't the answer.
    
    I don't want to make this too lengthy for you, but I do want to
    explain what I was looking for.  I wanted to ask questions about
    things I read in the Bible that I wasn't sure how to interpret;
    I wanted to find people like me who had questions, and I wanted
    to hear from someone that what I was reading MATTERED in our time;
    in the '80's.  I also wanted to know that God was still around, and still
    cared for us.  So I thought that Bible study would be better than
    any church I could go to.
    
    One of the answers I recieved from my note in CHRISTIANS was from
    a person I worked with--he said that he had some people for me to
    talk with.  We talked for a while;  and since I already knew this
    person, and admired how calm and happy he always seemed to be, I
    was willing to meet his group.  The "group" turned out to be himself
    plus some young missionaries from the Church of Jesus Christ of
    Letter-day Saints (the Mormons).   To make a long story short
    (from June 1988 to present), we had many meetings, talks, and prayers
    together.  I recieved the Book of Mormon, which I am still studying,
    along with the Bible.  I began going to church each Sunday, and
    enjoying not only a regular service, but a special "investigators'
    meeting", and then a womens' meeting after that.  I had never in
    my life enjoyed church-going so much, nor had ever gotten so much
    out of it.  I met people like me, and made friends there.
    
    The end (and beginning!) of this story is that I became a Mormon
    myself, and have found my spiritual home.  I have a personal testimony
    to the truth of this church, and the gospel.  Looking back on
    everything, don't think I would have changed any of my experiences,
    because everything I went through lead me to this path.  If I hadn't
    tried all that I did, I don't think I would have appreciated as
    much where I am today. 
    
    I hope that this helps you, and your research.  Good luck!
    
    Jane

                           -< Woman's Spirituality >-

    
>    	I am collecting information on Woman's Spirituality for a class
>   	that I would like to give.  A large part of the class will be open 
>  	discussion as I feel everyone has something to give and one
> 	of the problems with many paths is that women are not allowed
>	a voice

	I have led "Cakes for the Queen of Heaven" (Feminist Thealogy
	course) a number of times over the past two years - Is that
	what you are talking about?
    
>    	What path you are following (Christian, Wiccan, Native American)?

	I am presently a non-Christian UU with leanings toward Wiccan.
	I am not sure as to what information you are looking for and how
	you plan to use it.  There are a number of notes in =WN= V1 and
	V2 that address Woman's Sprituality, you should probably take a
	look at them.  I noticed that you left out Eastern religions in
	your examples which I find interesting as it is Taoism that has
	lead me futher on my spiritual quest.

>    	What journey took you to that path?

	I have always had a belief in the oneness of the universe and that
	there is a link between all things (living and non-living) that
	connects generations.  In Toaism that is "The Way" which is water.

>    	What are the benefits of this path?

	Since each of us have our own Way of knowing any benefits I found
	in my search have to do with me and may not be a benefit for others.

>    	What are the drawbacks?  What would you change?

	The world.

>    	As a woman, do you find that your path is supportive?

	As a person I find that my search is part of my life and can not
	be denied - I must continue.  I try to live/practice my beliefs 
	in every part of my life, which is very difficult to maintain.

>    	How do you incorporate your spirituality in every day life?
    	
	I just do.
    
If you want ideas as to what has worked in the "Cakes" classes I have lead,
or participated in send me mail and I will respond to your questions through
mail.

The following is a short trip itinerary for my search:

	I was a non-believing Catholic until I was in my early twenties.
	I questioned many things about that religion by now ways the least 
	of all was the fact that as a female I could not have an important
	leadership role in my church.  There was no way for me to have full
	participation - I felt left out.

	I dabbled from time to time in Wicca/spirituality.

	At the age of 26 I became a member of a liberal Protestant chruch
	and was somewhat comfortable there.  I taught church school - no
	bible stuff for me we did World Religions including non-organized
	religions of primitive peoples.  This is where I learned more about
	Taoism.

	For the past 10 years I have been trying to get this church to be
	less sexist in its treatment of people.  I think I have made some
	progress though I am not sure the progress was because of me or
	inspite of me.  All I know is that I have had an effect.

	Two years ago I began leading "Cakes for the Queen of Heaven" and
	since then I have become less and less Christian and more and more
	Wiccan.  I am sure that there are some people who think that I don't
	really understand what the Craft is all about.  It may be that I
	don't understand "their" meaning but I do understand mine and it is
	very close to what I have taken/accepted as useful in Taoism.

	_peggy

		(-)
		 |
			The Goddess is the Way and the Way is the Goddess
			She is in all and all are in Her
			To deny the existence of universal connections is
			to ignore what is there.

    ***Please note*** I am responding to the basenote, not intending
    to start a rathole or controversy.  Thanks for your understanding.
    
    Path?  I follow my own path.
    
    What journey led me here?  I have a mixed heritage including Jewish
    and Shawnee Indian. I was raised Christian/Methodist/and mostly
    in metaphysics (Unity School of Christianity). I converted to
    Catholicism and did a stint as a Catholic missionary in old Mexico.
    Eventually I reverted to metaphysics as the most like what I believed
    life to be.  Last year, I "outgrew" any type of organized religion
    and became "me".
    
    What benefits have I found?  I simply believe that "God" and I are
    one.  The closest I can come to my religious evolution is to say
    that "God" and I are equal and the same.  I am an integral part
    of that which IS, and that which IS, is an integral part of me.
    This has freed me to cease praying and simply utilize the basic
    laws of the universe so well put in the books of wisdom of many
    religions, i.e. what you sow, you reap; do to others... I can accept
    others as they are without deciding they have to believe the same
    way I do.  I no longer have to be right, because I simply AM.  I
    don't argue religion or the validity of any religious book.  If
    what the books say fits, I utilize the wisdom, if they don't "fit",
    I leave it behind.  I recognize that I have a universal, unlimited
    mind that has been poured into a human body and subjected to the
    "teachings" of my family, my country, my society, and my world;
    therefore, I am more aware of what has been implanted as acceptable,
    and now have the ability to change or ignore or accept these teachings
    as I choose.
    
    What drawbacks have I found?  Religion is a very personal thing;
    therefore, I cannot present these views or ideas to just anyone.
    Others may feel threatened by my current "lack or religious" thought,
    so it can be lonely at times.
    
    What change has this made for me?  I'm FREE!  I am now as unlimited
    as it is possible for me to be at this point in my life.  I am myself
    and have no need to be anyone else.  I feel good about me and about
    what I believe and don't believe.  I answer for my beliefs only
    to myself.  Ultimately, I am the person I must live with; therefore,
    it's up to me to be the best me I can be every moment of my life
    or I pay my own price.  I don't believe in heaven, hell, or limbo.
    I create that place for myself, rather than attribute it to an outside
    source.
    
    As a woman, I am supporting my own beliefs and it feels good.
    
    I live my life as if it is mine; therefore, I work harder everyday
    to be me in every aspect and try to develop my life to it's fullest.
    
    Barb                    

FYI:

There are a couple of good books about Women and the Buddhist
experience in America.

One is called:  Meetings With Remarkable Women.  This book profiles
eight female teachers in America.

The other is called Turning The Wheel which is a feminist treatment of
American Buddhism and some of the problems women have to deal with that
practice Buddhism.  

[originally sent via Mails]
    
I've participated in several Spirituality classes over the years.  
Most notably those offered by the School of Spirituality, Episcopal
Center for Renewal in Dallas, TX.
 
I am a Christian.  By denomination, I am Anglican, but that's not 
really my path.  My journey to this path was an easy one, I was born 
to it as it were -- my father was in seminary to become an Anglican 
priest when I was born.  Having father & priest in one taught me early 
that figures in authority such as priests, bishops & archishops are 
ultimately as human as I am, albeit more learned in theology, so I 
never felt compelled to mold my own spiritual gifts to meet their 
standards.

I have taken several side trips on my road, and probably will continue 
to take them as opportunities arise for deeper understanding.  I have 
most often been encouraged by those that I care about to do so and 
have not allowed those in opposition to hinder me in my search for 
enlightenment.

I suppose the reason I still claim 'Christian' is that the fundemental 
messages embodied make sense to me:
	- All are children of God [no gender here] and deserving of 
	  love
	- All gifts & talents come from God & it is the responsibilty 
	  of individuals to use the talents they have to good purpose 
	  leaving the world a better place than we found it
	- All are obligated to seek happiness & enlightenment, 
	  although there is no implicit promise that they shall attain 
	  them

While many who do not name themselves 'Christian' believe as I do, I 
believe that the Christ was sent by God to teach and remind us all.  
That his message was not popular yet he willingly died for it is 
significant.

The benefits of this path are so many, it's hard to know where to 
begin!  First, it feels right and centered and strong.  It sees 
'wrongness' of faith only in denying another's path, for who am I to 
question another's walk with God?  A balance is acheived by
living in Creation and creating myself each and every day -- I am a 
part of everything _and_ I am a whole.

While there is no specific thing I would wish to change, I hope that I 
can change and grow in Spirituality.  So I guess my desire is to stay 
open and incorporate the changes I am meant to make.

The drawbacks are mostly mundane.  Mainline Christians frequently deny 
my right to call myself Christian.  While I don't let it stop me, it
doesn't feel good.  The flip side is that many non-Christians seem to 
ask that I justify being a Christian, confusing The Church, the 
Inquisition, and such with the teachings of Christ [you may have 
gathered that I am far from Paulian...;^)].  I don't have to justify 
myself; being asked is irritating.

> As a woman, do you find that your path is supportive?

  Yes. I do not see how it could be otherwise -- as a person.


> How do you incorporate your spirituality in every day life?

  By living.  By experiencing the joy of what my hands can create and the 
wonder of what my mind can perceive.  By trying to give something of 
myself, not only of my substance, in small ways.  By taking time to 
know the complexity and patterns of the life around me.  By asking 
'Why?'
    	
> If anyone has been a part of such a class, I would especially
> appreciate your comments or the calls - what worked & what didn't.

  [I may have missed it but] you do not say in what context this 
course is to be taught.  If the participants are coming from outwardly 
similar backgrounds, probably the easiest way of getting derailed 
right at the start is the assumption that the externals equate to 
internal likeness as well.  I have found that the early context and 
exploration stage must be MUCH more intensive in these 
quasi-homogeneous groups than when the participants come from diverse 
starting points.  There is frequently a hesitancy to open up for fear 
of exposing non-orthodoxy.

  Are your goals to only explore spirituality or to enhance it as 
well?  What has worked well for me is to allow absolutely no note 
taking during the early opening up phase. To allow a participant to 
speak and then respond to one specific question from another member of 
the group before moving on.  Gentle correction is frequently needed 
when members' ideas are challenged rather than questions asked to 
clarify.  Challenges need to come later when the group has experienced
some learning on how to challenge without judging.  [Am I getting tied 
up here or what?...]

Is this what you were looking for?  Do you have any questions on 
thoughts requiring clarification or amplification?

      Ann

    
    
    	I have not been able to reply to my own note due to workload
    (toooo busy) but have read the replies and appreciate the time,
    energy, and attention.
    
    	I especially can identify with the thought that "Christians"
    	(particularly fundies, which I once was) do not consider me
    to be Christian but the non-Christian consider me very Christian.
    
    
    	Thanks for your replies,
    	Jayna
    

    If it is not too late, I would like to reply.
    I was born Catholic and still am, although with my own variations.
    The benefits of being Christian of any flavor is the support one
    gets spiritually and emotionally, particularly in times of distress.
    Being part of a particular group also has social benefits -- being
    able to get together with people I have at least one common bond
    with (our basic beliefs), and the support and friendship I get when
    I come together with a group.  The drawbacks of the Catholic faith
    in particular are the Church's opinion on most methods of birth
    control (they must change with the times on this one!), homosexuality,
    divorce, and -- the big one -- women's roles in the Church.  Despite
    all of these major issues on which the Church and I do not agree,
    I can still be a practicing Catholic who holds my own beliefs beyond
    the basic ones.  For a brief period in college, I took a look at
    converting to the Episcopal faith (very similar, but more liberal
    in my opinion).  I decided that I am a Catholic at heart, that I
    wanted to convert because of beliefs not doubts, and that there
    was no way for me to affect change in the Catholic Church if I left
    it.  So, here I am!  Another drawback about being Catholic is being
    a victim -- both directly and indirectly (i.e., the mockery of Catholic
    priests, nuns and laypeople on TV and in the media) -- of people
    who do not understand.  I am proud of my faith and the people in
    it, and I am proud of who I am even if my own church says it doesn't
    accept me.  I draw a large distinction between the patriarchal
    hierarchy of the Church and the actual believers.  All of us are
    just people with faults, and God loves us all.  As a woman, I am
    supported by God, a myriad of saints and angels, and the people
    of the Church.  I put faith in those parts of the Bible that seem
    most reasonable -- I do not believe that every word is the word of
    God; the Bible must be flawed since it was written by humans often
    over a hundred years after the story was originally told!  I am
    not a terribly spiritual person -- I am still on my path -- but
    I do try to be a good person, am struggling to treat my body like
    the Lord's temple (in other words, trying to quit smoking), and
    I believe as someone else said that I have an obligation to use
    the gifts God gave me.
    I hope this is of help to you and to others.
    
    KR