Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    Somehow, I feel making a comment might be really none of my business
    considering I have not been married, but I can sympathize with the
    situation somewhat.
    
    I had a similar-type of relationship with a man I loved very much,
    and because I loved him, was willing to overlook our sex-life (or 
    lack thereof). Although the relationship ended, the scenario described
    for your friend seems a bit similar to my experience.
    
    In review of my situation, I think he was very, very uncomfortable
    with himself sexually, and therefore found that I was too aggressive,
    even though I was more than willing to let him lead. For example,
    as a birthday present (which he requested), I went out and purchased
    the corset, garter, etc. When I put it on, he was ashamed to see
    me dressed that way. Ultimately, nothing physical followed. Even
    after I had changed into something more reasonable, he would not
    touch me because I still appeared "dirty".  I remember a conversation
    we had that followed some days later in which he commented that
    "making love" did not include those seductive outfits nor any
    "language" not befitting to a woman in a loving relationship. In
    other words, you only f**** "woman who are easy" and only are tender
    with someone who you are committed to.
    
    It made no sense to me! I'm certainly not one to be hanging from
    the chandeliers in handcuffs and ostrich feathers, but a little
    excitement doesn't classify me as a streetwalker either.
    
    I feel that maybe your husband is embarrassed or ashamed if he allows
    himself to fantasize or enjoy himself sexually. It could be that
    as a child, he was told it was "dirty", and has never gotten over
    that subconciously, even though as a man, he knows differently.
    
    He should probably see a therapist alone, so that he can have
    discussions with a neutral person without being embarassed, until 
    he is ready to talk directly with your friend about the problem.
    
    The only word of caution is that the outcome may not produce a more
    loving husband, but one who is either no longer in love/interested
    or who's sexual preference is not of the female persuasion. (That
    was something that also crossed my mind).
    
    Good luck.

    To Bonnie: Thanks for entering this note.
    
    To the author: welcome to Digital, to New England and to this notes
    file. Thanks for having the courage to share your story with us.
    
    And to the rest of the noting community: This is a delicate subject.
    Please word your replies as discreetly as the author has worded the
    base note. In addition, please be as respectful and supportive as you
    can. This does not mean that you need to agree with everything that's
    said. If you're in doubt, imagine being in this situation yourself and
    think about how you'd like to be treated. 
    
    Liz as moderator
    

    Here are a few thoughts. Please disregard anything that doesn't
    make sense to you.
    
    Going to counseling is a scary thing. There's that thought,
    somewhere in the back of your mind that NOW they'll find out how
    screwed up you really are! Fooey. All a (good) counselor will
    do is ask the right questions to get you to make your own answers.
    It's scary. It's a risk. But do it.
    
    You can, of course, decide to keep the status quo. That's always
    a choice. But then, you can't grasp hold of something new until
    you let go of the old thing you were hanging on to.
    
    Sounds to me like some professional help is th ticket, here, and
    I wish I had some recommendations.
    
    Good luck.
    
    --DE
    

    re: .0  (Anonymous)
    
    	   T. sounds a lot like me (except that I'm single).  One 
    	comment in particular rung a very familiar bell for me:
    
>T. is much more comfortable with computers than with people.
    
    	   If I don't miss my guess, T. is probably a very intelligent
    	person.  I'd also be willing to wager that he has had less
    	premarital sexual experience than the so-called 'average man'.
    
    	   It's fairly obvious that he is out of touch with his feelings.
    	Not terribly surprising among men, I'm afraid.  His is probably
    	a world of logic and reason more than emotion and feelings.
    	If he's gone as far with it as I have, he may have already
    	learned to 'channel' his emotions into his work.  I'll wager
    	he's fairly successful at whatever work he does if this is the
    	case.
    
    	   Now, to what is perceived as the central problem... sex.
    	I really haven't read enough to have any clue as to why he
    	feels the way he does about sex... perhaps he, like myself,
    	had some fairly bad experiences in his early sexual experimentation
    	and has chosen to sublimate sex.  Since I don't really know his
    	case well enough, I can only talk about my own and make any
    	sense.  Hopefully you'll be able to draw any appropriate 
    	parallels.
    
    	   You mentioned that some of his premarital sexual experiences
    	were with aggressive women... so were mine.  In fact, I would
    	say that ALL of my sexual experiences to date have been with
    	women who 'forced' the issue (required, in order to overcome
    	my basic shyness).  Today I am much less shy, but I still prefer
    	women who 'know their own mind' (my way of say women who are
    	confident enought to be aggressive).
    
    	   But, due to the way I have structured my life, I will never
    	be one who engages in frequent sexual escapades.  I have
    	sublimated sex to the point that it is no longer a driving
    	force for me.  Perhaps T. has done the same thing.  It sounds
    	as if he has.
    
    	   One suggestion, then I'll shut up.  T. is probably very
    	career-focused.  If your attempts to instigate sex coincide
    	with the times he is actively pounding on keyboards he will
    	probably view it as an intrusion, and will not appreciate the
    	efforts on your part.  Timing is important... showing up in
    	a slinky negligee will have far less impact when I'm working
    	than when I'm resting after dinner... I' guess T. feels the
    	same.
    
    	- Greg

    20 years ago it was assumed that most problems of this sort had
    an emotional basis. Now it is believed that most of them (80-90%)
    do have some physical basis.
    
    Despite the fact that T. has had two COMPLETE physicals, it is not
    normal for a man never to climax and to very rarely have an
    erection.           
                                                                   
    Unless these examinations included sperm counts, endocrine studies, and
    other sexually-specific tests, they may have missed what could be a
    medical (and probably correctable) problem. There are some very
    specialized and sophisticated tests that can be done. (For example,
    most men, whatever their sex drive, have erections during sleep several
    times each night. There are devices that can monitor this, and
    help determine whether this is, indeed, a medical, physical, or
    emotional problem.) 
                                                              
    There are clinics in the Boston area that specialize in these fields,
    and there probably is one in Worcester, too. Most of them include
    counseling services before and during the testing, which can be
    of great help, and they will make a referral in the very rare instance
    when there is no physical cause.
                                                        
    I strongly urge you both to go to such a clinic.
             
    I wish you both the best with this very difficult burden, and the
    strength and mutual love to overcome this problem.
    
    Bruce       

    Afternote - I apologize if note.1 was offensive - not meant to be.
    Below is possible therapist in the Worcester
    area you may consider calling:
    
    Counseling Affiliates
    52 Ward St, Worcester.   (rt 290 exit 13)
    508-753-4221 
    Specializes in Intimacy & Sexuality Issues, and Marriage Counseling
                               
    

I sympathize with the problem you are having, and the difficulty in talking
about it to each other. I commend you for looking for help, and looking
at your options. That takes a lot of courage, and love.

It sounds to me like you two have a good and trusting relationship in other
ways. That is the basis of marriage. So counseling always feels risky, but
if you have the strong basis it will most likely improve your marriage, and
hopefully your sex life. So I agree with others that counseling sounds like
the best thing to do.

I think along with counseling, looking into the physical side more throughly,
is also a good idea. There could be a combination of physical and emotional
here.

I also want to gently remind you that you, yourself are probably not the
problem. I think women, myself included, feel very rejected if for some
reason a man cannot perform - and want to know how we can fix it. It
probably is not something you can fix, but something your husband has to
deal with in terms of whats going on with him. It may have to do with
his bringing up, past experiences or whatever - but you are probably
not the cause.

Good Luck - I wish I could recommend a good sex counseler.

Muggsie
                               
    

    Although he's not a sexual counselor per se, I have been told Hernando
    Romero (Edward Street Associates in Worcester) is excellent in working
    with people on problems of this nature.  He is a psychiatrist rather
    than a counselor, and would also be able to refer you to a physician
    to investigate possible physical causes as well.  Dr. Romero is
    affiliated with Worcester Memorial Hospital and has a good reputation
    in Worcester.
    
    Liz

    I would like to suggest some possibilities (which don't necessarely
    include therapists or clinics), that maybe could offer (a part of)
    the solution of these problem(s):
    
    1. maybe your husband  should try to be more interested, familiar
       and comfortable with PEOPLE in general (also females at his work
       far a start...) than with computers, how hard this exercise may
       be for both of you; it takes time and initiative and could also
       slow down his career, but this maybe is worth it : SHARE the
       risk together !
    2. a flirt with another woman can excite him maybe to practise the
       resulting fantasies with you ! (sorry if this seems immoral to 
       some readers, it doesn't really have to be, depending on how
       far the flirt goes... if this is not in line with catholicism,
       maybe the goal does justify the means).
    3. stop talking about sex for a while !!  It could make the subject
       to heavy, especially for him... (don't be too serious, have fun)
    4. dare to show emotions to each other (let the hands do the
       talking...) 
    5. go on a long (hot-sunny) holiday together in a quiet place...
                                                                    
    And think of the saying: a "dirty" mind is a joy forever ... 
    
    Good luck and have faith and patience in 1989.
    
    Martijn.
                           

    If you would like the name of a Marital/Sexual Dysfunctional Counselor
    with years of experience, have Bonnie Randall drop me a VAXmail message.
    The woman I will recommend practices out of Boston and Natick.

    justme....jacqui

    PS. note new nodename for mailing address.

    RE: 0
    
    Your best bet is a counselor who can speak with you individually and
    together.  When my husband and I first started in sexual relations we
    experienced many of the same problems you have stated, some of the
    problem was emotional and some of it was physical.  It did put a lot of
    strain on our relationship.  I went through that stage "Oh it must be
    me - I'm ugly - I'm not sexy" etc.  Counseling made it better but not
    good.  It stemed from his parents relationship, his birds/bees talk
    from his father, etc. 
    
    Then we discovered the physical part - lets just say I figured out that
    the jelly on this particular condom we were using actually numbed the
    skin/membranes.  When we changed brands our sex life improved even
    more. 
    
    So my best advice is to check out both avenues - physical and emotional
    - and to always keep the channels of communication open - when that
    is lost it is much more difficult to solve problems.
    
    Suzanne

    
    	Hi,
    
    	Some things I noticed in your .0;
    
    	- that T. and you are trully *like* one another.
                                                         
    	- that you were a Catholic virgin when married.
    
    	- that you can talk about ideas much easier than feelings.
    
    	- that you think your personality is "too strong"
    
    	- that you have trouble "talking without blaming him" for how
    	  you feel.
    
    	Psychoanalyses? The sexual non_function is a manefestation of
    something deeper. Either one, or both you and T. have an unresolved
    issue that's trully between you and yourself; is up to you and yourself
    to find and solve. This issue may be connected to the difficulty 
    *we all have* in expressing feelings and defining what feelings are
    appropriate to express. Being raised a Catholic myself, I can attest
    to the fact that in classic Catholicism, the expression of feelings
    is the last thing they're concerned about. If anything, they discourage
    it completely, so you can better attend to the hard_and_fast rules!
    These rules, some of which are embodied in the 10 commandments,
    some of which are from other institutions, form a basis by which
    you -your_self- is eventually "judged". Show an inappropriate feeling 
    for an inappropriate setting and you may end up in the confessional 
    for a while "redeeming yourself"! Well, what's wrong with that? It
    ascribes a person's value and self esteem, i.e. how they choose
    to feel about themselves, in terms of meeting some arbitrary criteria. 
    It's not long before the "fine line" between what one feels about meeting
    some arbitrary criteria and what one feels about themselves just
    dissappears. 
    
    	My *guess* is that for T., it has been well_learned that -
    
    	- there's certain places that you are not allowed "to go" - even
    	on your *own body*.
    
    	- nice, normal people dont ever consider such disgusting things!
    
    	- no one will like you if they were to see you touch yourself
    	"there".
    
    	- God would be offended if you were to behave in such a manner.
    
    	- You'll burn in hell if you were to ever have sex out of wedlock.
    
    	- (and at a very young age) "You've found the BAD part of you!!!"
    
    	Since T. may have been programmed in this way for most of his life,
    it's no wonder he might shun whatever opportunity you may offer for him
    to re-experience how he feels about himself in the sexual context!
    That you are strong minded and may tend to blame him for your feelings
    simply reminds him all the more of the one day when "Mom" may have
    blamed him for "making her feel this way" - over something that "he
    did" which was "not in line". The classic story is a young man's
    first discovery of his genitals, which can often be expressed in an
    "inappropriate" setting, such as Xmas day when the whole family
    is gathered. As a result, the young man likely gets told about "The BAD 
    part of him" and then perhaps blamed for his mother's own feelings of 
    embarrassment! From that moment on...it's loaded like microcode
    into the subconscious mind, which has no sense of time. The belief
    is just as real now as when the young man was "5"! And, even though
    the conscious mind can comprehend and talk about it, changing the
    belief (I should feel so bad if I have anything to do with this) and
    consequently the behavior, is a effort on the subconscious mind.
    
    	Some people will not even consider what I'm talking about in
    the conscious mind, without much difficulty. Some would rather deny
    that there's "anything wrong at all" because the actual feeling is so
    inapproachable. Be aware that in order to change the beliefs held
    in the subconscious, the conscious must first positively believe
    in a need to change and also must have a positive reason to change.
    Then it's a matter of rote work to get the new belief through to
    the subconscious. Like writing with heartfelt effort; "I am whole and 
    ALL PARTS of me are valid!" 1,000 times or something. Good Luck!
    
    	(If you feel that this is confusing, feel free to contact me
    via MAIL and perhaps I can explain better)
    
    	Joe Jas
    
    	Joe Jas

	Consider, in addition to the suggestions so far:

	There's a tendency for those of us who work with computers to
have a machine-like model of behavior.  This tends to create a lot 
of anxiety about unfettered feelings, and limits spontaneity.

	Also, a condition of low blood sugar, hypoglycemia, will
not show up in a physical, but will cause a lot of subtle symptoms,
including avoidance of strenuous activity. The tendency to stimulate
the pancreas with sugar, refined carbohydrates (pasta, snacks, colas,
alcohol), can lower hormone levels and adrenaline.  Taking B-complex 
vitamins helps metabolize sugars and reduces stress symptoms, and 
improve outlook.

	Counseling seems to help, though it seems to mostly 
help in the area of agreement, agreeing there is a problem, opening
up avenues of communication that were blocked.  It seems to be
worth the time, not the money, ouch!

	Your "state of the union" idea is great!  You may want to
consider spending more time working on gratitude for the great and
small things going, and humor for the predicament.  

	You're making progress just seeing things for what they are,
and having the patience and openness to let the community in to your
life.  Good luck with your marriage and your future!


	

If the problem is physical, get it treated.
If it is emotional, get it treated.
If it is 'religious,' perhaps I can add a thought.

I consider myself to be religious; to have been brought up religious.
I have read the Bible through several times and have found nothing
that prohibits a man and wife from enjoying sex nor experimenting
with sex (within the marriage boundaries).  My libido is higher than 
my wife's but I have found that to be more a matter of temperament
than upbringing.  Religious taboos concerning sex basically hinge on 
these things: No sex before marriage, no sex outside of marriage, and
no unnatural sex (beastiality, homosexuality).

- Before I get flamed mail, I'm just reporting a religious assertion, not
making a judgement on anyone -

In the Old Testament, sexual behavior among married couples was regulated
with an eye for purity and procreation.  Purity because the Israelites
were to be a pure race; procreation because they were to multiply.  
Procreation and purity do not exclude enjoyment or fun or even sex
as a recreation.

One prohibition said a man was "unclean" (not suitable to enter the 
temple, etc) if he had sex (or touched) a woman during her period.  
Nocturnal emmissions also made him unclean.  As I understand 
"uncleanliness," it had to be atoned for (much like confession and 
pennence might do for 'sin'.)

I have yet to find out that garters and stockings, whispers of highly 
explicit language in a lover's ear, and variations in sexual positioning
were prohibited from the marriage bed.  

***There is no Biblical basis for not having wild sex with your spouse.***  
(If someone can find it in the Bible, please contact me.)

From reading the base note and the subsequent replies, I'd check the physical
part out (especially if a previous noter's statistics were correct).
It seems that you've already had some counseling.  Any positive results to
warrant another go at it?  I doubt that temperament plays a significant role.

Anyway, I thought the religious possibility hadn't been discussed beyond
'that's what mom told me.'  Perhaps any further discussion of religious do's
and don't's with sex ought to go somewhere else.  This note is just an attempt 
to address a possible misguided "don't" and explain why it might be misguided.

The following note is from a member of the community who wishes to
be anonymous.

===============================================================================
r.0

I used to be the same kind of person as your husband.  Two years before, I love
my computer more than anything, including my girl friend.  I asked my girl
friend last night how she could change me, she said:

1.	We love each other.

2.	She told me again and again in the last two years that my computer
cannot be my `another woman' and she must be the first in my mind.

3.	She does not allow me to turn on my computer when we are together, in
order to let me concentrate on her 100%.

4.	When we have a long holiday (2 days or above), we go to countryside to
get touch with something not so `computerize'.

5.	Finally, it is my effort to change myself in order to show my love to
her.

The above work for me, hope it can help.

May God bless you to have a joyful marriage!