Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    For healthy oldsters, the senior years can be wonderful, a time
    to travel, visit, attend classes, and enjoy old hobbies and develop
    new ones.  For those who are ailing, it can be quite a different
    matter.  From my perspective, the best thing you can do for your
    mom at this point is to paint a picture of the retirement years
    as a time of opportunity.  Help her to organize her finances, if
    necessary.  Once your mother retires, your mom will need to budget
    carefully if she's like so many others.  There are clubs and discounts
    and so forth that may be available to her now, even at 58.
    
    AARP publishes a magazine monthly that has lots of good information.
    You might want to subscribe to it for her for the first year.
    
    My mother's last few years were among her most active, even after
    having reared eight children.  The summer before she died of cancer,
    she had helped organize a national astronomy conference in our
    hometown. She did volunteer work at church and at the public tv
    station.  She belonged, with my dad, to the rose society and showed
    their prize roses at shows in the region.  My dad has Alzheimers
    now, at 79, and is in a nursing home.  Even so, there are things
    he enjoys...sports on tv, frequent family visits and lots of phone
    calls, books.  He appreciates these things on a different level
    than he might have a few years ago but they're still appreciated
    and he's very much loved.
    
    In spite of her not wishing to "burden" her children, your mom, like 
    so many others, is probably afraid of being alone and forgotten.  
    You can fix that.
    
    Marge 

    Re .0, my mother is already in a nursing home. (She's almost 76,
    I just turned 39.  That's one of the negative aspects to having
    children later in life.)  When I visit her and see all the old people
    and see the condition of many of them, it does scare me to think
    of old age.  My mother is physically in excellent condition, but
    unfortunately became senile after almost dying of a brain aneurysm
    two years ago.  That's why she's in a nursing home.
    
    Over the weekend, before taking my mother her Christmas gift, I
    was listening to news about the tragic airplane crash in Scotland.
     I (as I'm sure everyone did) felt horrible thinking about all those
    people dying so tragically, just before Xmas, most of them in the
    prime of life probably.  I found myself thinking, why do things
    like that have to happen?  Those poor people!  Then, I went to visit
    my mother.  I looked around at all the old people.  Some of them
    look just terrible and are so out of it.  My mother is totally confused
    as to what year it is, how old she is, where she is, etc., *But*
    she is cheerful, and friendly, and chatters away, and looks like
    a sweet little old lady.  Some of them look so awful, it's pitiful.
     And, I found myself thinking, is *this* what happens if you don't
    die young and tragically - you wind up old and sick and confused
    and ugly in an impersonal place, having given up all the possessions
    you worked all your life to accumulate??  What's worse?  At least
    people who don't live to be old, won't end up like this!!  It makes
    life seem so senseless.  Anyway, I guess the ideal is to live to
    be 75 or 80, staying mentally and physically fit, and then dying
    suddenly - :-)!  (Some people manage it.  My father and grandfather
    did.)
    
    I worry about my old age because I'm afraid I won't have enough
    money to live on.  I told a friend the other day - I'll never be
    able to retire, I'll have to work til I drop.  (An old secretary
    slumped over her terminal, probably reading non-workrelated notes.)
    
    My mother and father's house was paid for so my other had no mortage
    until she got sick.  That certainly helped.  But, divorced and single
    women, with low-paying jobs like myself - well, who knows where
    we'll wind up when we're 70?  (Of course I still have 31 yrs. to
    get rich in the meantime.  Sure.)
    
    Good health, and enough money, are, of course, what's needed to
    ensure a fun old-age.  I try to be inspired by my grandfather. 
    When he was 75 he and a friend drove across the U.S. (from Mass.
    to Calif.), camping out along the way.  He had a great time, and
    did a lot of hiking.  He thought nothing of walking 4 or 5 miles
    a day up until he was 80, when he died of, of all things, food
    poisening.  But, he not only had his health (luck?  Hopefully, genetic,
    and I'll inherit it!), but he had enough *money.*
    
    Lorna
    
    on the way

    
    I don't think it really makes a difference whether you are married
    or not.  You can not count on a marriage to last forever.  One of
    the partners is going to die before the other.  My grandparents
    are in their early 80's.  We all live in the same house, grandparents
    downstairs with my family upstairs.  It all works out well for us.
    But they are getting on in age and my grandmother constantly worries
    about death.  She doesn't participate in any outside senior citizen
    activities neither does my Grandfather.  I wish they both did.
    I know in my heart that when one of them dies the other will be
    gone within a year.  Just call it a gut feeling , but it is strong.
    
    My Dad died quite a while ago.  So my mom is alone in that respect.
    But she has four kids with two left at home(I am on my way out
    the first of the year.  I love my family dearly, but need to be
    on my own). My aunt has lived with my grandparents all of her life.
    She is 45 now. I feel that my brother will probably be like her
    and never leave his mom's home.  But who knows.  Anyway there will
    always be someone around for my mom and my grandparents.  So I don't
    think they really are afraid of being alone, but they are afraid
    of living longer and what life has in store for them.
    
    Michele

    My grandmother is in a nursing home even though she is physically
    healthy because she has big memory lapses and may forget things
    that happened minutes ago.  This makes her unable to live by herself.
    Basically she does not want to be there, but all of her choices
    were taken away from her.  That is what scares me, not having choices.
    I am worried about losing my mental facilities, and being treated
    like a child or like a crazy person.  I think that it is far too
    easy for decisions to be made for elderly people over their objections.
    Having money helps, but with people living 20 years past retirement
    age, it would take alot of money.
    	Linda

    Re .3, the difference I see in being married as opposed to single
    for elderly women is not primarily one of companionship, but rather
    economic.  If a single woman has a professional career as many young
    Womannoters do, then they will earn "good money" in their lifetimes
    and most likely will be financially prepared for retirement.  On
    the other hand, single or divorced women who have low paying jobs
    may not ever be able to afford to retire unless poor health forces
    it, and then they are at the mercy of Medicaid and it's choices
    of a nursing home.  If women with low paying jobs are married to
    a man who makes a "decent" income, however, then the husband's earning
    power will most likely provide for the wife's retirement, regardless
    of her own earnings in her lifetime.  See what I mean? :-)
    
    My father died when my mother was 62.  She had never worked outside
    of the home.  However, she collected his social security and the
    house (the house he already owned when he married her) was hers
    and paid for.  So, even tho, she had little money coming in, she
    had a house with 5 acres of land, and could have her flower and
    vegetable garden and her pets.  The quality of her life would have
    been much lower if my father had not left her this house and land.
     I hate to think what kind of apartment she would have had to have
    on her social security.
    
    If my ex and I had stayed married, our house would have been paid
    for by the time I was in my 60's and if anything happened to him,
    I would have gotten the house.  Now, who knows?
    
    It may sound materialistic, but with reports of elderly women freezing
    to death in the winter, or starving, it's justifiable concern I
    think.
    
    Lorna
    

    At 41+, I have done some serious thinking about how I spend my later
    years.  There is a good chance that I'll outlive my husband, since
    he had a massive stroke at 34 (he's now 44) and is in a wheelchair;
    so I need to be prepared for that possibility.  At retirement age,
    my current plans are to either move back to old Mexico and live
    in the mountains near Creel, Chihuahua, until I die, or keep active
    by continuing my education and being involved with a lot of volunteer
    work, especially working with battered and abused women.
    
    There is another probability, unfortunately.  My mother has
    Altzheimer's disease, and since it is hereditary, there is always
    the possiblity that I, too, will end up with Altzheimer's.  If that
    does happen, I plan on entering either adult foster care or a nursing
    home, or leave a living will to that effect, so my children won't
    have to bear the burden the way I have with my mother.  I also plan,
    in that event, to prepare an "euthanasia" tape that I will use as
    a "sleep teaching" tape.  It will basically tell me that I am willingly
    letting go of life, that I am ready to let it go, and that I am
    happy about it.  Hopefully, it won't take too long afterward to
    move on.  Without my mind, I feel that there's nothing left.  My children
    are aware of this (the older ones), and understand my wishes, so
    there should be no problem.

    As for money, I'm not counting on much while hoping for a comfortable
    retirement.  I know how to get by on very little; in fact, if I
    do return to Mexico, I can live very well on very little and still
    save money.
    
    Old age is something I welcome because it means my race is nearly
    run.  It's going to happen, so I may as well accept it as gracefully
    as possible.
    
    Barb

    There are lots of things we can't control but a few things we can.
    We women, whether married or single should save money, invest in
    equity, eat well, not smoke, and exersize. Our old ages would be
    more productive.  

                                

    <--(.5)
    
    No, I don't think it sounds materialistic at all, Lorna.  Realistic. 
    
    I guess I haven't thought too much about that aspect of the future,
    even though I'm closer to it personally than most in here are. My
    biggest fear is that I'll get Alzheimer's or some similarly serious
    irreversible degenerative condition that would render me unable
    either to cope or to enjoy the rest of life; my best hope is that if
    that should happen I'll still have the sense and courage to cash in
    my own chips before time takes the choice from me. 
    
    Will any of us, no matter how well-paid today, have the financial
    resources with which to meet our needs after retirement?  I don't
    know.  Inflation is relentless (for one thing), and I'm convinced
    that there are unpleasant social changes coming as a result of the
    shift in wealth that's been going on for the past 8 years.  As we
    change over to a global economy, many of the ways in which a lot of
    us have earned our living will go away forever because there's
    someone over on the other side of the world who is willing to do it
    for less money.  The distribution of wealth will even out globally,
    but concentrate more and more heavily in the hands of a few as they
    come to have alternative labor pools.  It's not at all clear to me
    that we have --or even understand well enough to install!-- the
    social infrastructure that can compensate for that redistribution
    and concentration.  
    
    The asians and (to some degree) the europeans have more social
    provision for the old, but we really don't. Maybe the solution for
    us will involve an increase in technology-supported communal living
    for the elderly.  And maybe to make that work, we need to recognise
    that there really is a difference between "life" and "existence" and
    allow a clean physical death once the personality is irretrievably
    lost. 
    
    I don't know how we'll cope, and I can only hope that the technology
    will advance fast enough to provide us with new possibilities as the
    old ones go away. 
    
                       				=maggie

    Mark,
    
    I don't know if you're aware of the general pattern of divorce. In
    general (and I do realize that there's an exception to every rule),
    women find that their standard of living markedly decreases while men's
    standard of living rises substantially (does anyone have the exact
    figures?). Are you aware that older women are as a general rule very
    poor? Or that many more women live in poverty than do men? Or that the
    gap is widening? 
    
    Further, I'm sure you didn't mean to come across this way, but your
    reply to Lorna sounds incredibly patronizing. You've asked some rather
    personal questions (the implication is that _you_ will be in a better
    position to judge Lorna's situation if you have the answers. I suspect
    Lorna was stating her opinions and relating her experience, not asking
    for sympathy.) You've implied that she might have "frittered away" her
    settlement (she's not a child, nor does she need to be treated like
    one. Further, how can you judge what constitutes "frittering" for
    another person?) 
    
    In some ways, you come across like a parent who says "I'll only love
    you if you keep your room clean" or "I'll only love you if you bear me
    a grandson". In fact, it's interesting to note once again that the root
    for the words "patronizing" and "patriarchy" are the same. 
    
    You are of course welcome to continue believing and behaving in any
    manner that you see fit. On the other hand, the attitude that you
    exhibit (intentional or not) is exactly what many people in this file
    complain about when they say that their experience has been
    "invalidated". 
    
    Liz

�     You are of course welcome to continue believing and behaving in any
�     manner that you see fit. On the other hand, the attitude that you
�     exhibit (intentional or not) is exactly what many people in this file
�     complain about when they say that their experience has been
�     "invalidated". 

    Liz, you took the words straight out of my mouth!
    
    						=maggie

    Re: Liz-
     
    >your reply to Lorna sounds incredibly patronizing. 
     
    Really? In what way? You are absolutely correct in stating that
    you don't feel it was my intention to come across as patronizing.
    I wasn't.
      
    >the implication is that _you_ will be in a better
    >position to judge Lorna's situation if you have the answers. I suspect
    >Lorna was stating her opinions and relating her experience, not asking
    >for sympathy.    
             
    I am neither trying to give sympathy to someone that doesn't want
    it nor am I trying to judge her in any way. i am simply trying to
    understand her situation better. Perhaps it is my inquisitive nature
    that you dislike.
    
    >You've implied that she might have "frittered away" her
    >settlement 
     
     Absolutely NOT! Read my reply again. I said that I assumed that
    she did NOT fritter her settlement away! Pay some attention. If
    you are going to impugn my character, at least try to refrain from
    making things up.
    
    >she's not a child, nor does she need to be treated like
    >one. Further, how can you judge what constitutes "frittering" for
    >another person?
     
     No kidding. She's probably old enough to be my mother.
    
     I don't have to judge what "frittering" is. I'm sure that Lorna
    has enough self determination to decide whether how she wants to
    spend her money. Of course, this goes back to your incorrect assessment
    of my "implication."
    
     Are you androphobic?
    
     MArk

    So as not to derail this topic, Mark, let's move this discussion
    to the processing string (15.*) now that you've had a chance to
    respond to Liz.
    
    						=maggie

    I can't find the reply to reference but someone made a very important
    point about not trying to make decisions for your parents.  They
    may be old and they may be losing their mental acumen but they are
    proud and they *are* still your parents.  When our family doctor
    told us that our dad could no longer live alone, as he had, in the
    family home we were quite concerned about how to approach the matter
    with him.  We ended up asking my oldest brother to pose a number
    of options to him but making certain that "staying put" with no
    nursing care was not among them.  Mike did and Dad was very receptive
    to a couple of the ideas.  He surprised us by opting for the nursing
    home.  
    
    Now we're faced with stepping up from nursing home/no special nursing
    care to what is termed "intermediate" nursing care.  The expenses
    go from $850 a month to twice that.  If/when he needs it, the expenses
    will probably triple for the highest level of nursing care.  I guess
    this is where having eight kids whom you've educated pays off!!
    
    My two sisters who still live in Peoria are investigating the waiting
    lists at intermediate care centers.  Again, we'll present the options
    to Dad and allow him the decision.  Any of the options we present
    will be one that we can live with.  
    
    Marge

re.1 [marge]  You are right that some of my mom's fear may be of being 
alone and/or forgotten.  However I think that alot of the panic or fear is 
attributed to how her health will fair, coupled with her fierce independant
nature.  She is just starting to acquire the tools {i.e., learning _how_ to 
plan for her security} needed to maintain her finacial independance as she 
gets older.  Most of her previous working years were spent addressing other 
priorities as a single parent, the *least* of which was herself.  I also 
think she is just learning that this is a very worthwhile investment!

re.8 [mark]  I don't know about Lorna's situation, but when my mother and 
father divorced there was NO child support, NO alimony, and LOTS of poor 
credit rating established that took *forever* to turn around.  I'm not sure
what situations _you've_ been exposed to based on your reply....but they 
are not similar to what I have witnessed.
      I do not understand what wisdom you are sharing with us in the last 
paragraph of your .8 reply.  Was it relavent in some way to the discussion?



    I believe, as Lorna suggested, that a single woman may have more to 
fear in her later years.  FORTUNATLY, there are single women who are in a 
position earlier in their lives to start planning {re.7 <start now>} for 
the furture. I believe there are many more women who are 'stuck in between'
an era that did little to value their carreer contributions, and an era 
that is more rewarding financially for _some_women_.
   I personally do not want to spend my 'final years' in a nursing home. I, 
like Linda and =maggie mentioned, hope the capability of choice is not 
removed. Either for health or financial reasons.



robin

(=maggie, I like the idea of "techno-supported communal living" as long 
as it doesn't resemble the current concept, ie rest/nursing homes ;-))

    <--(.16)
    
    Yah, Robin, my (ill-formed) idea of that sort of communal living is
    a combination of robotics to take care of the housekeeping and
    improved communication to maintain links with sources of emotional
    and intellectual stimulation.  That would require a major social
    investment plus of course a greatly improved technological infra-
    structure but my wag is that at least the technology per se will be
    available by 2000.  Given we could solve that much of the problem, I
    think we could then reduce the amount of low-grade human service and
    shift the money to providing a better class of more intensive care
    where needed. 
    
    I just hope that whatever we do we can get our act together before
    we have a social disaster on our hands. 
    
    						=maggie

    Yuck!  Sure do wish we could stop the clocks!
    
    My parents and I toured a retirement community with my Grandmother
    today.  While it was very pleasant (private rooms and suites with
    non-assisted care and assisted care), it pains me to see my
    Grandmother have to settle for this.  She's so fiercely independent;
    now she's making decisions about what would be easiest for her son -
    my father.

    No easy answers...just tears...
					-Leslie

    Fortunately for me, my mother is still in good health---mentally
    and physically.  At 68 she is very active in number of 'volunteer'
    programs.  But, she often discusses 'what will I do if..."
    and the answers are never pretty.  She owns her home, but thats
    it.  She lives off of social security--and we all know how little
    that is, for someone who worked very little during their lifetime.
    So, what will my brother and I do if she should become disabled?
    
    I honestly don't know...I certainly couldn't take her into my
    home.  (more power to those who can live with their parents!)
    Nor could my brother.  Neither of us make enough $$ to put
    her in a rest home ($850/month!!!!!shheeeshhh that's more
    than my mortgage!)..So , what does one do??
    
    I truly hope, as does she, that her life will continue as
    healthy/happy as it is now, until she dies in her sleep some
    nite...or something equally as easy.  There are no easy answers
    without money, or larger/closer families.  Communities for the
    elderly may be the answer.  Robotics, and technology may help.
    But for all those faced with the problems now, I fear we have
    little help.
    
    deb
    

    8 years ago my mother and I went through a traumatic experience 
    together when we had both of my grandmothers living with us.  It 
    was so bad that my mother and I sat down and set up a written 
    agreement stating that I am never to let her live with me.
    
    Dad's mother, at 78, is fit and fine.  Still does volunteer work,
    knits all of her grandkids and great grandkids Christmas gifts,
    and is an absolute riot.  She lives in a nice little apartment.
    
    Mom's mother, at 77, has Alzheimers.  She can barely talk, and has
    developed a tremor.  She remembers faces, but can not remember what
    happened 5 minutes ago.  Mom and I feel that this was her last
    Christmas, but we have been saying that for the last 6 years.  Her
    husband (3rd) put her into a nursing home, but takes her out once
    in a while (like to my parents' house for Christmas/her birthday).
    
    I thank God that I have 6 brothers and sisters, so should anything
    happen to my parents, between the 7 of us, we can come up with
    something. 
    
    "And the mother becomes the child"
    
    K.C.

My mother-in-law lives in a retirement center in Lexington, KY., and it is
really lovely!  She has a two-bedroom apartment, and all kinds of services,
including emergency call service, a nurse on the premises during the day,
one meal a day in a lovely dining room with linen tablecloths,
waiters, and menus.  There are a number of elegantly furnished common rooms,
too.  The center also offers all kinds of social and cultural
opportunities and transportation to Drs., shopping, and church.  There is
a nursing home adjacent to the apartment complex, which she was in for about
four months after having a stroke.

I have always been impressed with that center, and would feel quite comfortable
living in that setting.  However, it is _MUCH_ less expensive in Ky. than
similar places here.  She did _not_ have to invest her capital to get in,
merely pay a monthly rent.  I believe that when she first moved there, her
expenses (including one meal a day and all utilities except phone and cable TV)
were about $17,000 per year with some kind of cap (tied to inflation) on the
amount the rent can be increased each year.

The problem seems to me to be in waiting until you _have_ to go into such
a place and therefore dealing with the feelings of loss of independence.  In
an ideal situation (which are few and far between), I would like to move into
such a place while I have enough energy to enjoy all the trips and social
activites connected with it.  I would like to view it as an escape from
maintenance chores and other worries in order to have more free time, etc.
Most such places accept people as "young" as 55.  However, when I eat in
the dining room there (when visiting) it becomes depressing to see so many
people with walkers, canes, hearing aides, etc.  So obviously most of us
_don't_ choose to move to that kind of place until we have some specific
disability or lessening of vigor!

Another problem there, which the administration is trying to address with a
new setting, is that there is a gap between the independent living in the
apratments and the nursing home.  My mother-in-law is still in her apartment,
but has to have sitters 24-hours-a-day, which means her yearly expenses have
escalated to maybe $50,000 and her capital is being rapidly depleted!  Yet she
does not required nursing care!  We urged her to move up here with us, but she
definitely does not want to!  I hope the center will offer that intermediate
kind of living soon!

Nancy

 The good news is that there is some tax relief coming for those who
    provide "elder care" (and child care) for dependents:    
    
Source: Management Memo, December 1988

"UPCOMING CHANGES IN BENEFIT PROGRAMS"
.
.
.
Digital will also offer another program allowed by U.S. tax law that 
enables employees with dependent care expenses (such as child care and 
elder care) to set aside a portion of their income (pre-tax) in an 
account earmarked for payment of such expenses.  A number of government 
restrictions apply to this program; so carefully read all the plan 
details when they are published.

Information on the medical changes and dependent care programs will be 
available soon through many channels, including newsletters and group 
meetings. 

    I have often thought of asking this question in this conference
    and it seems relevant here:

    Do you ever worry about becoming a "bag lady?"  I remember reading
    that Gloria Steinem and some others really have this fear, and I
    wonder how common a fear it is, whether it relates to growing up
    in the city versus the country, and whether it relates to growing
    up poor or affluent?  
    
    I _do_ definitely worry about how I'll make ends meet when I am older,
    but in spite of having my share of fears, I _don't_ really see myself
    as a bag lady!  I believe I will have shelter _somewhere_!  (Though I
    have enough trouble throwing things away that I'd need lots of bags to
    carry my stuff if I _didn't_ have a home... and that _isn't_ intended
    as a flippant remark!) 

    (Moderator - if this should be a separate string, please move it.
    Thanks.)
    
    Nancy

    
    I have serious concerns about what will happen to me in my senior
    years.  I have been a single parent for the past 20 years and was
    not in a position to salt anything away for my future. Now that
    I am over 50, I have tried to envision what life for me will be
    like in 20 years, especially if my health starts to fail. I have
    no fear of dying, but a real fear of living in shear poverty.  I
    had a dream that I had lost my home and had become a street person
    and was sleeping in parks and doorways. That was the most frightening
    dream I have ever had in my life. In relaying the dream to my sister,
    I got real upset and started crying, it seemed so real and painful.
    
    

    
    Lest anyone misunderstand and think I'm set for life:  I have no
    vested pension anywhere, have only about $600 in a 401K, and am
    already 50!  We "own" our home but have borrowed most of its
    equity to invest in my husband's fledgling business.  (He, too,
    has no pension and no IRA or Keough or 401K.)  So, at the moment,
    unless his business takes off, we win the lottery, or I write a
    steamy novel, it looks like we face life with just Social Security.
    I sure _hope_ that changes!

A beautiful, but sad, poem about old age.  (Read at your own risk.)
Maybe sentimental, but also too often very true -- and it doesn't have to be.
Reprinted without permission from "Images: Women in Transition" 
(1976, Nashville: The Upper Room)  




Minnie Remembers

God, My hands are old.
I've never said that out loud before
but they are.
I was so proud of them once.
They were soft
like the velvet smoothness of a firm, ripe peach.
Now the softness is more like wornout sheets or
withered leaves.
When did these slender, graceful hands
become gnarled, shrunken claws?
When, God?
They lie here in my lap,
naked reminders of this worn-out body that has served me too well!


How long has it been since someone touched me
Twenty years?
Twenty years I've been a widow.
Respected.
Smiled at.
But never touched.
Never held so close that loneliness was blotted out.


I remember how my mother used to hold me, God.
When I was hurt in spirit or flesh,
she would gather me close,
stroke my silky hair
and caress my back with her warm hands.
O God, I'm so lonely!


I remember the first boy who ever kissed me.
We were both so new at that!
The taste of young lips and popcorn,
the feeling inside of mysteries to come.


I remember Hank and the babies.
How else can I remember them but together?
Out of the fumbling, awkward attempts of new
lovers came the babies.
And as they grew, so did our love.
And, God, Hank didn't seem to mind
if my body thickened and faded a little.
He still loved it.  And touched it.
And we didn't mind if we were no longer beautiful.
And the children hugged me a lot.
Oh God, I'm lonely!


God, why didn't we raise the kids to be silly
and affectionate as well as
dignified and proper?
You see, they do their duty.
They drive up in their fine cars;
they come to my room to pay their respects.
They chatter brightly, and reminisce.
But they don't touch me.
They call me "Mom" or "Mother"
or "Grandma."


Never Minnie.
My mother called me Minnie.
So did my friends.
Hank called me Minnie, too.
But they're gone.
And so is Minnie.
Only Grandma is here.
And God!  She's lonely!

             -- Donna Swanson

    oooOOOooo, Nancy, that was hard to read.  What a hit, I couldn't
    even finish it just now.

    
        
    I don't worry about ever being a bag lady particularly (except in
    connection with the worry about losing my mind or major physical
    abilities as I mentioned earlier; if that happens, it would open
    Pandora's Box for sure and anything terrible could happen). 
    
    Perhaps it's unrealistic, but my presumption is that if it comes to the
    crunch and I have neither money nor social resources wherewith to
    maintain myself, I'm strong enough (and I really sync in with the
    advice earlier about keeping fit--it pays off!) and have enough
    outdoors skills that I would have a reasonable chance to make my way to
    public land down south and have a go at setting up a permanent campsite
    for myself. My pension (I'm also presuming that social security doesn't
    go away, which you can argue is a pretty shaky premise) would suffice
    for the wee bit food and other amenities I'd need if I weren't paying
    rent. At that point of course, my life could be snuffed out pretty
    easily (illness, exposure, the wicked) but that'd prolly be true
    regardless, no point worrying about it. 
    
    						=maggie

    Worry about my future?  Which do you mean:
    
    My physical health?  My mental health?  My emotional health?
    My financial health?
    
    First, I am likely to live to be old, perhaps very old.  My
    mother's parents lived well into their seventies, and my father's
    parents lived into their eighties.  Only one required nursing
    care for any length of time.  The one who died youngest died of
    kidney cancer, but she smoked heavily.  So I eat a balanced diet,
    doing most of my cooking from scratch, watch my weight, and exercise
    regularly (yuck).
    
    Second, I do have a chance of going ga-ga.  Although my grandmothers
    were sharp until the end, my father's father suffered from senile
    dementia for many years (as had *his* father, who lived to be 96).
    It's hard to tell about my mother's father; he had amyo-- Lou
    Gehrig's Disease, and could not communicate well towards the end.
    My father is only in his early sixties, but his memory is raveling
    a bit at the front edge.  So I feel I should worry about late-onset
    Alzheimer's.  I've stopped using aluminum cookware (A buildup of
    aluminum is found in the brains of Alzheimer victims.  Cause ior
    effect are currently unknown.), and I intend to never use artificial
    sweeteners (Aspertame seems to link into Alzheimer somehow.), but
    beyond that?
    
    Third, I have no children, but I have friends, and social activities.
    I don't intend to give them up, and I do intend to keep adding new
    ones.  And the world will still be filled with books I want to read,
    so I think I'll be all right in that sense.  If I only have a brain.
    
    Fourth, as I have to remind myself from time to time, I am saving
    money.  It's just that it comes out of my paycheck before I see
    it, instead of being put in a cosy little savings account at a pathetic
    rate of interest.  As long as Digital is a prosperous company, I'll
    have something.  I also have a house, or, rather, I will have one
    at the turn of the millenium.  If the property taxes would stop
    when I stop working, I wouldn't worry about them, but they're a
    killer.  I'll probably end up selling my current house, and buying
    a well-insulated cottage with a very small yard -- but with a good
    kitchen and lots of space for bookcases.
    
    							Ann B.

       My mother is 71 and now lives with me. She had a stroke this
       summer and can't manage completely on her own though she can
       still get around OK. It frightens me as I see what changes the
       stroke did to her. She seems weak and wavery now, before she was
       strong and determined. She's lost so much weight. If I don't make
       sure she eats somedays she barely touches food.

       She lost the ability to speak and read for several months. She
       still has trouble sometimes. The words just don't come out. I
       have promised her I will not put her in a nursing home unless she
       requires 24 hour care. I also had to promise not to use extreme
       methods to keep her alive. She was a nurse and fears being kept
       on a life support machine as the undead.

       This has been hard to handle comming after my separation from my
       husband. I can't be weak because there is no one to lean on. My
       brother is 30 and still lives off money from my mom (he's a
       writer, to bad he never sells anything). My sister has 3 kids and
       wants to help but my mom is too tired out from the kids to stay
       with her long. I wonder what my fate holds in store. I could
       probably survive as a bag lady but I wouldn't like it. liesl

This is an area I have been thinking about the last couple of years. My Mom
is 72 (I am 32 and my brother is 44). She is in good health for her age but
is hard of hearing and has arthritis in her knees and now requires a cane.

My father left her when she was 63. Yes divorce can happen late in life, after
38 years of marriage, and yes the woman usually ends up with a lower standard
of living. There is no guarentee for us married folks. My Mom is ok financially,
but she has to be careful. She is definetly not in the financial situation she
expected to be in when she retired.

My brother and I are both concerned about what her plans are for long term
care. She currently lives in California, I live in Massachusettes, and my
brother lives in Illinois. She talks about moving closer to one of us, or
to some other retirement community. I would feel better if she moves closer
to me, so that I would be near by. (She would not consider moving in with us).
But if she doesn't want to move here or to near my brother, I would like to
see her stay in LA where she has connections and friends. 

She does not like the idea of a nursing home  or retirement home, but is
beginning to wonder if that will be the best option. We do keep talking
about what her long term options are - and I keep telling her that I would
like her to decide what she wants now, while she has all her mental and
physical faculities. I don't want to have to make a decision for her some
day because she is no longer able to.

I have not yet thought about my getting old, but have thought about my
mother. I think the reality of the situation is that most people get old,
and become unable to care for  themselves. (Most of us do not die suddenly,
after good health). I think we have to plan for our old age, while we
are healthy and mentally able. It is very difficult on children to be forced
to make the decision to put a parent in a nursing home, though often that
is the best choice.

Muggsie

    As an aside, there is a notes file dedicated to the discussion of
    caring for older persons.  CASDEV::CARING_FOR_ELDERS offers support
    to those of us responsible for the care of our parents/relatives.
    
    See you there!
    
    Barb

    When I think about my own aging, I think it would be lovely to grow
    old in a communal home for older women.  I've often fantasized about 
    buying a big old house or maybe a school and converting it into wheelchair
    accessible condos.  (I guess I like privacy too much to want to live
    in an actual commune.)  I know sometimes it's not possible to care
    for others or be cared for at home, but I would like to avoid
    institutionalized care if I can.  I like the idea of a progressive
    home where care is available if needed but folks are encouraged
    to do as much for themselves as they can.
                                     
    Justine
                                             

    <--(.28)
    
    I've swapped out my aluminium pots too because of the A. link...but
    what's this about the Nutrasweet link????  I've been living on that
    stuff for 2-3 years now.
    
    						
    <--(.32)
    
    Y'know, Justine, that sounds a lovely idea.  I wonder if it could
    be made to work.  I'd sign up.
    
    						=maggie

    What a time in my life for this question.  
    
    My 86 year old mother-in-law, widowed with her only son, 
    my late husband, dead 
    6 years, no relatives in the world except her 4 grandchildren and
    myself, has had to be placed in a nursing home.  
    
    Up until about 7 weeks ago, she was self-sufficient, although her
    health was quickly deteriorating due to colon cancer.  But that
    old gal held on for months, never letting anyone know, gritting
    her teeth and still doing her daily routine until she could no
    longer deal with life alone.  She had always been a feisty, in-
    dependent and rather solitare woman, difficult to know.  She 
    was a tremendous walker--in fact, she walked 5 miles in Sept.
    just to see where Nashua has placed its new Jr. High school.
    
    Now she lies in bed, even smaller looking than when she was well,
    and whispers her words and longs to leave us.  I understand that.
    And *I live in a subliminal terror* of losing my independence,
    my ability to control my daily life as she always was.
    
    The money was never plentiful, but she was frugal and did not want
    to spend much as her pleasures were the church and her greatgrand-
    children.  And now, what there is is trickled out $ by $ to the
    medical profession for her 24 hour care.  
    
    I am almost 56, and the worries of money are real, but not one
    of my major worries.  I have a laid-back attitude about that, and
    figure I can handle whatever comes.  Being careful without denying
    myself some leeway is about all I am aiming for now. 
    
    But it is the health issue, the mental and physical stamina and
    ability that I sweat out.  Will my mind begin to falter, will my
    body betray me into weakness and ill health?  So...I attend school
    and try to stay sharp, I exercise and watch my food intake, and
    underneath it all, I nearly collapse laughing at myself.  What
    a spectacle I feel myself to be...
    
    *ps* I have no doubts that my 4 kids--or at least 3 of them--would
    be willing to be of whatever service they reasonably could.  But
    I expect nothing, and since I live my life without leaning on them
    now, I pray I never come to the time when I feel I have nothing
    left to do but lean.
    
    Marilyn
      
    
    
    

    Oh, good.  I already have a cast-iron stomach, and never have to
    take antacids.
    
    Maggie, I remembered that that bit about aspertame as coming from
    Andi, so I called her.  She remembers reading that -- somewhere --
    but she didn't save the article or anything.
    
    The Alzheimer's Disease and Related Disorders Association of
    Eastern Massachusetts has a phone number of 617-494-5150.  Will
    you call them or do I?
    
    						Ann B.

    If you're less shy about phoning, Ann, then wudju do it? (I *hate*
    telephones).
    
    Not only antacids..."pit potion":  the main ingredient in all of'm I've
    ever seen is aluminum mumble.  Anybody know a *good* herbal pit
    potion? 
    
    This is starting to get grim.
    
    						=maggie

    once we've hashed out the potentially harmful effects of aluminum
    and discovered herbal cures for upset stomachs, could we please
    get back to the original topic -- the later years?
    
    thanks
    liz

    I'm sorry, I thought "pit potion" was a common slang term for underarm
    deodorant.                                                             
    
    I'm not sure I consider Consumer Reports a reliable source of medical
    info.  My experience of them over the years is that, if you accept
    their safety-above-all premise, they're okay at comparative product
    testing...but they're not especially sophisticated or informed about
    anything else.
                                  
    						=maggie
    
        
    (I respect your decision, Liz, so I'll start a new string if necessary,
    but it really feels to me as though the Alzheimer's/aluminium thing is
    actually on-topic, since that particular disability is probably the
    single biggest (obscure causality + devastating consequences) threat to
    a healthy old age) 

>    actually on-topic, since that particular disability is probably the
>    single biggest (obscure causality + devastating consequences) threat to
>    a healthy old age) 

Umm, how about smoking.

As I understand the medical information (second-hand from my brother
who is an oncologist), post-mortum analysis of Alzheimer's patients
showed "abnormally high concentration" of aluminum in the brain.
There is no evidence to show whether this is a cause of Alzheimer's
or an effect (or irrelevant).

My brother did note that the most popular drug perscribed for old folks
is Maalox.

Martin.