Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    Alfred,
    
    The only woman that I know of that takes sick time that is related
    to her period suffers from severe endometriosis. She is under a
    doctor's care for the problem. It is my personal opinion that if
    a woman is suffering from cramping at the time of menstruation
    that is so severe that she has to take a sick day then she should
    be seeing a doctor about it.
    
    Bonnie

Why should the amount of sick time someone takes (assuming they are
not malingering) have any affect on their performance rating?

Martin.

    	Never in my whole life have I taken a sick day for this
    	particular reason (well, ok, when I had my first period
    	in the 6th grade, my Mom suggested that I stay home,
    	but even then I thought it was unnecessary and haven't
    	'stayed home' or 'gone home' for that reason since then.)
    
    	The idea that "most women" take a sick day for that reason
    	every single month seems highly unlikely to me.  The other
    	woman engineer that sits next to me has not taken a single
    	sick day since she came here a year ago, so I know that she
    	doesn't do it.
    
    	I don't know *any* women in my group who take a sick day
    	every month, come to think of it.
    
    	I'm sure that there are women who suffer during their
    	periods, but I think that a blanket statement about MOST
    	women taking a sick day off per month for this reason
    	is stretching it a bit.
    
    	I'd like to see some formal statistics on this, because
     	it's definitely outside the experience I've had working
    	with women over the years (and I find it very, VERY hard
    	to believe.)

    I know some women who are so debilitated by cramps that they can hardly
    get out of bed one or two days a month, but this seems statistically to
    be less than 5 percent, in my experience.  There are many women who
    suffer needlessly from PMS and cramps, when seeing a doctor and getting
    a prescription, or merely taking advice on cutting down salt and sugar
    and caffeine and other simple things around that time of the month, can
    really make a difference.  Medication and awareness are not always the
    solution, but they can often alleviate a lot of the suffering. 
    
    Also, thanks to the modern innovation of the modem, some of these
    women may be able to work from home.
    
    I have *never* had to take a sick day because of a period.  I have
    known two or three people who do on a fairly regular basis.  I am
    also sure there are some women who take the day off not only because
    they are in *pain* but because their emotions / reactions / 
    mental-processes are out of whack, and they feel they will be totally
    ineffective at work.  Sometimes I tend to cry at the drop of a hat
    when I get PMS, however I have discovered certain ways to nearly
    control this.  Perhaps some stay home because they'd be totally
    embarassed if they lashed out at someone at work for what is apparently
    no reason, or if they burst into tears at a meeting - and they don't
    want to deal with the possibility that they might, given their current
    state.  They probably particularly don't want to deal with others'
    potentially patronizing reactions to their excuse that it's PMS.
    
    I don't know, I could be way off base, this is just my reaction.

    -Jody
    

    
    
    I have never taken a sick day because of my period.  I don't know
    of any women I work with that have taken a day because of it either.
    But I have an easy time with my periods because I am on the Pill.
    That tends to reduce the cramping and bleeding, but it does not
    reduce the emotional side effects.
    
    I think it is terribly unfair to assume that all women take off
    at least one day a month just because of their periods.  Also
    I don't think that women are paid less due to that fact.  
    
    Michele

    I know a few women friends who have incapacitating cramps every month.
    If it is really that bad, and she isn't able to get any work done
    anyways, someone like my (non-DEC) friend Betty might as well stay at
    home in a horizontal position, taking acetominophen.  (Actually, I
    think she should see a doctor!  However, she is healthy otherwise, and
    every woman in her family has the same problem.)  You don't have to
    have something contagious to be better off at home!  A male friend of
    ours has a lot of problems with his back, and he stays home when the
    pain is bad enough that he can't bend over.
    
    Anyway, the vast majority of women are not incapacitated, and it is
    silly to assume that a woman will be out "sick" on a regular basis just
    because she is a woman.  I would say that at most, most of us are sort
    of uncomfortable for a day or two (usually the second day of my period
    I am pretty uncomfortable).  I think I have taken one sick day this
    past year, and it wasn't during my period (I had a really bad sore
    throat), and even that is unusual for me.  I think you would have a
    hard time guessing when the average woman is having her period by her
    behavior.  I think the "MCP" in question was just making excuses!
    
    /Charlotte                      

    This topic has made me very angry!!!  (It's a good thing I *am*
    against handguns and that I'm very small physcially!!!)
    
    If a person is sick, what the hell difference does it make *what*
    is causing the sickness?  Sick is sick, for Christ's sake.  
    
    If a person is performing successfully on their job, their work
    is always done and well and on time, and they took 5 sick days in
    a year, what the hell difference does it make what those sick days
    were for - strep throat, headache, head cold, flu or severe menstrual
    cramps???  What difference does it make if the result is the same,
    the person is *too ill* to work that day?  The G.D. company isn't
    going to go down the drain and KO isn't going to wind up on street
    just because every so often a woman takes a sick day for menstrual
    cramps??
    
    How dare your wife, Alfred, judge another woman's discomfit by her
    own?  I thank God that I work for a *man* who is far more understanding
    than that.  When I read this sh*t it makes me think that sisterhood
    is a load of crock.
    
    Lorna
    

    Lorna,
    
    I've found that in some parts of the company, manufacturing being
    one, that there is a mind set that encourages people to come to
    work sick. I have seen men who were obviously quite ill drag
    themselves into work rather than take a sick day. In that kind
    of situation people end up feeling guilty about sick days or feel,
    that they have to be on death's door to take a sick day. This
    often colors how they react to other people who feel that they
    are entitled to take a sick day if they are sick.
    
    Bonnie
    

    I have been getting severe monthly cramps all my life.  I have been
    to a couple of doctors and the pain killers prescribed were all
    so strong that they made me violently nauseous.  One even gave me
    hallucinations.  My current doctor has told me that I have
    endometriosis.  I told him that every two or three months I have
    cramps so severe that I miss work for a day.  He said that he did
    not see that as being sufficient reason for surgery, and I agree.
     One day in bed every 3 months is not worth the risk and even greater
    pain of surgery to me.  This has been going on since I was 13 and
    I am now 39.  I've gotten used to it for the most part.  I take
    percogesic (over the counter pain killer) which I have found is
    the most effective without making me nauseous.  But, every once
    in awhile I have to spend a day in bed with the heating pad because
    the pain is so severe that I can't walk around.  None of my bosses
    have ever suggested that i take too much sick time.  I do my job.
     To suggest that I should drag myself in while in pain, and sick,
    enrages me.  The company grants WC2's 12 sick days.  That is not
    to say that we should automatically use them all, but they are there.
     
    To expect people to work unless they are at death's door or in the
    hospital to me reeks of classism and a sweatshop mentality.  I am
    thankful that Digital's Personnel people are more enlightened that
    this.
    
    Too much absenteeism is an issue and employee and his/her boss must
    address.  But, if the problem is not excessive absenteeism then
    I don't see what difference it would make what the reason is - cold,
    headache, flu, cramps, whatever.
    
    I bet if men had periods every WC 4 would be granted a day off a
    month automatically just to deal with it!! HA! HA!
    
    Lorna
    
    P.S.  As for the women who are unsympathetic I put that down to
    how tough and unfeeling women have had to be in the past in order
    to become managers in a man's world.
    

    If the company allows an employee X sick days, then it's none of
    the company's business what the illness is, unless the sick day
    being taken is X+1.
    
    I know women who have horrendous cramps and take medication for
    them (which is probably worse in the long run than staying home
    for a day or 2), but b'god they go to work. 
    
    If someone is uncomfortable/in pain enough, their effectiveness
    at work is going to be zero anyway. What's the point in the presence
    of their body if their totally dysfunctional?
    
    The guy who said all women take a day a month off for menstrual
    cramps has his head someplace very dark.
    
    --DE
    

    	RE:  .9
    
    	Lorna, I didn't get the feeling that other women were
    	being unsympathetic to the few women who DO have such
    	severe cramps that they (quite understandably) stay
    	home.
    
    	The point is that not all women suffer this severely,
    	so it would be unfair to assume that any prospective
    	woman candidate is going to automatically take a sick
    	day off per month for menstrual reasons.
    
    	If someone suffers as much as you have described, I'd
    	certainly *expect* the person to take the day off.
    
    	However, can you blame me for not wanting to have managers
    	assume that *I* (and all women) will automatically take
    	a day off per month for that reason when I (and many other
    	women) have *never* had to take the day off for that?
    
    	The thing is not to say that no one is justified in doing
    	it, but rather to say that the number who *do* need to
    	do it is smaller than the MCP in the basenote suggested
    	(which I think is an important thing to point out.)

    If people will reread .0, they will find that Alfred did not suggest
    that most women take days off every month -- did not even ask if
    they do.  (He quoted this claim from "an old MCP" while setting the
    stage for his question.)  
    
    He did say that his wife has "found that many women *do* (much to
    her surprise) consider their period a valid reason to take a sick
    day."  This may be a subtle point, but the assertion is not
    necessarily that many women take a day every month themselves, but
    rather that they feel that it is reasonable thing to do.
    
    Finally, Alfred asked two questions:  
    
    "Is a period a good reason to take a sick day *every* month?"  (This
    one seems to have been answered convincingly in the replies -- not
    for most women, but if you're sick, you're sick, and it would be
    idiotic to suffer through work just because the ailment is periodic
    rather than exceptional.) 
    
    "If, in fact, a manager can expect a woman to take more sick days
    then a man should this effect the womans review?  ... can the number
    of sick days anyone takes (man or woman) effect their production
    enough to effect their raise?"  It seems to me that we are paid for
    the work we do, not for being here.  I.e., if a person is
    productive, s/he should get a good raise; if not, not.  Sick days
    are relevant only because they are visible, and might obscure a
    manager's perception of the work that the employee *is* doing.
    
    	-Neil

    	RE:  .12
    
    	> He quote this claim from "an old MCP" while setting the
    	> stage for his question.
    
    	Yes, we know that.  Where did you get the impression that
    	we didn't?
    
    	(I hope you didn't think that anyone was referring to
    	Alfred as an "MCP."  We were just repeating his own
    	use of "MCP" to identify an unnamed person that he
    	mentioned.)
    
	If people are responding to the MCP's statement more
    	than Alfred's later questions, perhaps it is because
    	the MCP's claim is more of an attention-getter.  :-)

    <--(.13)
    
    I think Neil was quoting because a couple of notes (I think one was
    yours and one Lorna's) sounded as though Alfred's note had been
    misread.  I might have made those same points if Neil hadn't beaten me
    to it, actually. 
    
    I agree with what's been said so far:  in my experience, only a few
    --very few-- women feel so rotten every month that they regularly take
    a day off.  Actually, I knew one who was out 4 days (!) every month and
    always came back looking like Death-sucking-a-pickle.  She more than
    made up for it the rest of the time, so nobody ever said anything
    unsympathetic to her.  Most women never take any time, though most
    (as here) consider it just as valid a reason, if needed, as any
    other.
    
    						=maggie

    	RE:  .14
    
    	Ok, then, I'm glad he offered the opportunity to clear
    	that up.
    

    I have taken 3 sick days in the last 2 years.  (Just ignore the
    fact that I am a TAG, and don't get paid sick days, and I can't
    afford to take too many days off)
    
    My periods are VERY heavy, and long, but only 2-Advil-every-4-hours
    painful, and only the first 2 or 3 days.  NONE of my sick days have
    landed in this time.
    
    And NO other woman in the group I am currently with takes a sick
    day during "this time"  (I know this because I usually hear them
    saying "Oh, you know, it's that time" at some course of the day.).
    
    Now my sister has had worse trouble with her periods, and she has
    had to take time off.
    
    But for the most part, _most_ women do NOT take a sick day every month 
    for that.                    
    
    K.C.

	Getting back to Alfred's original questions (although
    	I think they have already been addressed in a round
    	about sort of way...):
   
    	> Is a period a good reason to take a sick day *every* month? 
    
    	If an individual woman suffers from periods that make her
    	too ill to work for one day per month, then it is not
    	unreasonable for that particular individual to take a sick
    	day off every month for that reason.
    
    	For those of us who do not suffer that way (and apparently,
    	most women fall into this later category,) taking a sick
    	day does not appear to be necessary (and is not done as
    	a matter of course.)
    
    	> If, in fact, a manager can expect a woman to take more sick 
    	> days then a man should this effect the womans review?
    
    	Are you talking about women in general (or a particular
    	woman that experiences periods severe enough to warrant
    	taking a day off?)
    
    	*IF* you are talking about women in general, I don't think
    	it is accurate (or fair) for a manager to "EXPECT" that
    	women will take more sick days off than men.
    
    	*IF* you are talking about an individual woman who suffers
    	from severe periods, then why are you comparing her sick
    	days with men's sick days?  This individual may (or may
    	not) take more sick days than men *OR* than the women who
    	do not suffer from severe periods.  Comparing this woman
    	with men sounds like all women are being grouped together
    	as needing more sick days off (as if all/most women take
    	days off for periods.)
    
    	> Not automatically, I know some women can do more in four 
    	> days then some men in 10, but can the number of sick days 
    	> anyone takes (man or woman) effect their production enough 
    	> to effect their raise?

    	It depends on the men and women involved as to whether or
    	not absenteeism becomes an issue for that person.
    
    	If the person is living up to his/her commitments to Digital,
    	then sick days (within reason) should not affect their
    	performance review.
    
    	In the case of lengthy or potentially fatal illnesses, such 
    	as major surgery or cancer, one would hope that managers give 
    	employees as much leeway as they need (without penalizing
    	them for health issues over which they have no real control.)
    
    	From what I've seen in DEC, people with serious illnesses
    	are not penalized for being unable to perform their duties
    	for a period of time (as long as their performance was good
    	prior to and after the illness.)

	I expected most of the Notes I've read so far. I wonder if this
	means I'm starting to understand women? (Retorical question) I
	understand that sometimes periods are worse then others and agree
	that too sick to work is too sick to work regardless of the cause.
	I was interested to know if women felt that if a woman was that sick
	that often for her period should see a doctor (which is what I thought
	they should do). I guess the answer is yes from these replies.

	The historical question is based on the fact that most of the women
	here are of a 'younger' generation. (The MCP I quited is in his 60s).
	Was it, perhaps in our mothers day, accepted and excepted that women
	needed that extra day (or two) a month? Was it expected by women or
	just men? The only woman I know near well enough to ask was a single
	parent and never stopped work for anything (until her stroke [cause
	and effect? perhaps.]) Could it have been that at one time taking
	the extra day was the norm? I don't know. Would that explain some
	left over attitudes in older managers?

	It would be interesting to see statistics related to sick days
	between woman and men. It would prehaps not be completely valid
	because I believe that more women then men still take sick days
	to take care of sick children. I don't think the numbers would
	'prove' anything but they would still be interesting.

			Alfred

    Suzanne, I was not suggesting that the other women responding to
    this note were unsympathetic.  I was suggesting that Alfred's wife
    is unsympathetic based on this quote from .0:
    
    "My wife, who has spent a lot of time as a manager, tells me that
    since she started managing she's found that many women *do* (much
    to her surprise) consider their period a valid reason to take a
    sick day.  Now my wife sometimes has some pretty bad cramps and
    so I don't think it's just because she has an easy time of it that
    she goes to work anyway and expects others to."
    
    My contention is that, as a woman manager, just because she chooses
    to go to work when she has menstrual cramps and perhaps suffer,
    she does not have the right to impose this on the women who work
    for her.  She should understand that other women may have even more
    severe cramps and that others may not have her stamina to withstand
    pain.  To impose her own way of dealing with her period on the other
    women who work for her is unfair.  I say that, as long as the women
    who work for her are not taking an overabundance of sick time, that
    it should not matter why they are out sick, if they call in once
    in awhile.  I do not think once a month is a undue amount of sick
    time.  Almost everyone of the male engineers in my group calls in
    at least once a month, and WC4's have unlimited sick time - as opposed
    to WC2's who have 12 days a year.
    
    Alfred's note suggested to me that just because periods are natural
    that they are not a good reason to stay out of work regardless of
    the pain.
    
    Also, Suzanne, I do not think that periods should be taken into
    question at all when deciding whether to hire a person.  Either
    their record shows they have taken too much sick time in the past
    or it doesn't, and that should be the end of it.
    
    It was Bonnie who alluded to workers in manufacturing having to
    struggle into work unless they are at death's door and I oppose
    this sweatshop mentality.
    
    Even though I occasionally take a day off due to severe menstrual
    cramps, I have worked for DEC for over 13 years and during that
    time have only taken 3 days off in a row 3 times - once for a pinched
    nerve in my neck, once for strep throat and once for an ear infection.
    I have never taken 4 days off in a row and I have only been
    hospitalized once in my life when  my daughter was born.  So, I
    think you can see that, despite my occasional sick days with cramps,
    overall I have not abused the Digital sick day policy.  I think
    there are probably many people who do not suffer cramps who, in
    the long run, take more sick time than I have.
    
    Lorna
    

    I wonder why there would be any question about whether or not a
    woman's condition at the time of her period would be a valid reason
    to take a sick day.  If someone says they are sick, then they are
    sick.  Not taking time off seems to be a matter of pride instead
    of common sense.  If someone has the need to take care of themselves
    then they should.  I don't want to catch someone's cold, get the
    short end of their temper because of PMS, or see them suffering
    in pain because of cramps.  There are many ways to fulfil one's
    obligation to a career.  Forcing ourselves to work through pain
    and exhaustion is not one of the better ways.   We are fortunate
    enough to work in a company that provides more flexibility than
    most in approaching the dips in daily life.  So most of the people
    I know give more than they get when it comes to sick time/
    cramps/mental health days/etc.  And I still think it's odd to question
    sick time for rough periods.  
    
    Dondi

    	RE:  .19
    
    	> I think there are probably many people who do not suffer
    	> cramps who, in the long run, take more sick time than
    	> I have.

    	Agreed.  (I think I stated that in my response to the
    	original questions posed, in my note .17 or thereabouts.)
    	There is no reason at all to assume that a person who
    	takes time off for cramps takes more time than anyone
    	else who doesn't take time off for that reason.  You're
    	right!
    
    	I think that I was more concerned about the idea that
    	managers might assume that most women take time off
    	for periods *regardless* of the severity.
    
    	What it comes down to is trust (that is, how much a
    	manager trusts his/her employees.)  If a person calls
    	in and says he/she is too ill to work, then the manager
    	should take the person's word for it (unless there is
    	some reason to doubt that individual's sincerity or
    	unless the person's work is consistently lacking.)
    
    	The presence or absence of periods (or illness due to
    	periods) should not be a factor in itself, like you said.

    Suzanne, does your concern extend to female managers?
    
    Marge

    	RE:  .22
    
    	> Suzanne, does your concern extend to female managers?
    
    	I'm not sure that I understand your question.
    
    	If you are asking about whether or not female managers
    	should take time off if their periods make them too
    	ill to work, why shouldn't they?  (Managers *do* take
    	sick days, don't they?)
    
    	It wouldn't surprise me if many women (managers or not)
    	work in spite of being ill enough to warrant a day off.
    	I've known many people who do this (for all sorts of
    	illnesses.)
    
    	Can you please elaborate on your question a bit more?

.21:
>    	I think that I was more concerned about the idea that
>    	managers might assume that most women take time off
>    	for periods *regardless* of the severity.
 
	My question refers to this concern of yours about managers.
        Are you referring to managers globally or just to male managers?
        If you mean male managers, then your use of the term "managers"
        without a modifier would seem to exclude the possibility of
        female managers.

    
    	Marge

    	RE:  .26
    
    	> Are you referring to managers globally or just to male managers?

    	I was referring to managers globally.  In the basenote, the
    	manager who *seemed* to have the impression that most women
    	take time off for periods was/is a woman (so obviously, it
    	is possible for women managers to make assumptions about
    	other women.)  It is *possible* for *any* manager to make
    	assumptions about how women handle periods in general (although
    	I hope that false assumptions would be unlikely for managers
    	of *either* sex.)
    
    	It sounds like you thought I was saying that only male managers
    	could be mistaken about women (and my failure to qualify the
    	word managers as being male left open the possible assumption
    	that I consider management as an exclusively-male domain.)
    
    	I don't. Marge.  Honest!  :-)

    <--(.29)
    
    Suzanne, one of us is reading something unintended into what Alfred
    wrote about his spouse's reaction: 
    
�   My wife, who has spent a lot of time as a manager, tells me that since
�   she started managing she's found that many women *do* (much to her
�   surprise) consider their period a valid reason to take a sick day. Now
�   my wife sometimes has some pretty bad cramps and so I don't think it's
�   just because she has an easy time of it that she goes to work anyway
�   and expects others to.           
    
    Is it you or me?
  
    To me, she appears to be saying that "many" (some large number, not
    necessarily "most") women think that menstruation is a "valid reason"
    to call in sick (as is the flu, even if we sometimes come in anyway).
    Well, we here also think that it's a valid reason; we would expect
    our bosses not to carp if we were to take a sick day because of
    cramps or whatever. 
    
    What are you seeing?
    
    						=maggie

    Re: .31, .32
    
    Perhaps Alfred's wife was surprised to find that many women consider
    cramps a valid reason for a sick day because -- she has fairly
    difficult cramps herself and *she* doesn't consider them a reason
    for a sick day.  Every now and then, the fact that not all people
    think like oneself comes as a surprise.

    	RE:  .32
    
    	Well, Maggie, what I thought I saw was that Alfred's wife
    	had made an observation (based on her experience) that
    	"many" women consider 'having a period' (no mention of severe 
    	cramps or debilitating illness) as being a valid reason
    	to take a sick day.
    
    	It's been my experience that many/most women do NOT take
    	sick days for merely 'having a period' (and only do so
    	if they are among the few that DO experience severe
    	cramps, etc.)

    	Alfred did ask (if I am not mistaken) whether just 'having
    	a period' was a justifiable reason to take a day off.
    	No one here has stated that simple menstruation is enough
    	of a reason to stay home.
    
    	If Alfred's wife was trying to say that "many" women have
    	periods severe enough to be very ill, then was she surprised
    	that so many women suffer from such drastic symptoms during
    	their periods?  Or was she trying to say that "many" women
    	think that menstruation ALONE is uncomfortable enough to
    	warrant sick days?  (Or, as Chelsea mentioned, was she
    	suprised that other women would take sick days for the
    	kinds of cramps that she assumed were like the ones she
    	had herself without taking days off?)
    
    	Either way, I don't think that her experience could/should
    	lead anyone to a valid conclusion about what a manager can 
    	expect from "many" women in a random group (should anyone
    	be inclined to want to come to any sort of conclusion about
    	her observations.)
    
    	clear as mud, yes?  :-)

    Okay, your reading is just as valid as mine!
    
    Alfrrreddddd!?

    Al,
    
    Sounds like you did get married after all.  Spoke with you a year
    and a half ago about someone you were going to marry?  Do you 
    remember?  
    
    About the sick day.  I get the bad cramps along with leg aches and
    the whole 9 yards.  I don't take a sick day, never did.  It's nothing
    for me that a couple of advil can't cure and then a couple more.
    ... so on.  The severe pain only lasts one day for me.
    
    S.
    

    in re .39
    
    if you mean Alfred, I think you have the wrong person.
    
    Alfred Thompson the base note writer has been married for
    quite a while and has a son around 9.
    
    Also
    
    the notes about the Indian Moontime that were entered
    as .23, .25 .27 and .28 have been moved to their own note,
    and notes in this string referring to them have been deleted.
    
    Bonnie

    Thinking about this topic last night, I was reminded of an incident
    when I was in Girl Scouts in sixth grade (way back when).  We had
    planned an overnight campout for weeks.  When the weather report
    came in that the temperature might dip below 50 degree F, the troop
    leader canceled the trip because some of the girls (term used
    appropriately ) might have their periods and they might get sick.
    I have fumed over this for years.  
    
    The point is that some folks have preconceived notions that periods
    mean automatically fragile or automatically sick and down.   For
    some people this is their cyclical reality.  Others have no problem
    at all or never think about it.  It's quite individual.  The problem
    is the preconceived stereo type that seeks to solve a problem by
    shoving everybody into the same frame of reference.  I say again
    that if someone is ill, heal them.  If someone needs rest, let them
    rest.  If someone needs to take care of themselves, let them do
    it.
    
    Dondi
    

    Hi Alfred! :-)
    
    ...sigh...these kind of notes always strike a responsive chord.
    As .4 so aptly said, I am one of those women who take a day here
    and there at/near/during/after "that" time of the month because
    I feel as if I have *no* control over my emotions, and it embarrasses
    me.  
    
    Although I have gone thru this for years, I still fight it;  and
    lose.  Most periods I can get thru with the usual
    one-day-of-painful-cramps, one-day-of-being-crabby;  then things
    settle down.  But once in a while comes a day where I lose it all.
    I can't seem to stop crying or losing my temper, and I just want
    to hide from the world until it's over.
    
    I was raised in the 50's with the mentality that you *never* take
    time off from work unless you are dying.  Consequently it took years
    for me to allow myself to get sick AND take necessary time off!
    As a matter of fact, I take far more sick time when I get stressed
    out on the job--then I am out for a week.  That's *not* "that time
    of month";  that's stupidity on my part.
    
    I've gotten to where I don't care anymore who knows the "real" reason
    why I don't come in to work that day--it's better the awful, helpless,
    and debilitating feeling I get when I become a victim of my own
    hormones :-} ...
    
    I am fortunate to work within a group of women--we all work hard,
    and we tend to get our periods around the same time.  It's a funny
    situation;  but that way we can at least be supportive to each other.
    I don't feel that any of us abuses sick time in general, and especially
    not for the "monthly" reason.
    
    Sorry to ramble on so;  but if you have never experienced the a-hem,
    JOY of hormonal nuclear war within your mind, you can't understand
    the chaos you feel at that time.
    
    ...I'm due for the next joyride at Christmas...
    
    Jane

    
    If my project deadline nears and we are not ready, due to an under
    estimated schedule, unexpected problems or whatever, I do not hesitate to
    work weekends, nights, or whatever it takes to deliver.  
    
    I have always felt that it reflects poor management skills when a person
    is evaluated on the number of days they work rather than on
    the amount of effort they put into meeting their project committments
    and the quality of work that they perform.
    
    Your wife's boss sounds like the kind of man who manages to find
    excuses to support his prejudices Alfred.  Could a good manager
    be so short sighted?  Is a good manager one who gets the very best
    from the talented people for whom he is responsible?  
    
    The kind of manager who is happier with those who show up every day, 
    watch the clock, dress correctly, and socialize with the right people
    is not the kind of manager who gets remarkable results, inspires
    employees with vision and dedication and ultimately contributes
    to the growth and well being of the corporation.  
    Show me a remarkable manager and I'll show you a remarkable group.
    Make mundane details a priority and people will do what is required
    of them and no more.   
    
    Mary
    

    Mary, I agree with you as regards most job types, but there are
    certain jobs (telephone operator, manufacturing line, etc.) where
    it doesn't matter that you're willing to work weekends to make up
    for the lost time or work extra hard... if the phone calls come
    in from 8-5 or the items come tumbling down the assembly line from
    8-5 and you're not there, the work simply doesn't get done.  Insisting
    that folks who are sick go home and that those who are well come
    to work simply makes sense in those environments.
    
    Marge

    <--(.43, .44)
    
    Mary, I'm with Marge that some jobs are the sort where being there is
    the number one requirement, and with most other jobs its somewhere in
    the top five.  Analytical and creative jobs are about the only sorts,
    in fact, where "being there" typically isn't really necessary...and for
    those jobs I'm very adamantly in agreement with you:  any manager who
    can't figure out what she's paying for deserves whatever she gets! 
    
    Y'know, it could also be that Alfred's spouse (nit: not his spouse's
    boss) managed people who generally held fairly exhausting, dehumanising
    jobs where any excuse to escape for a day was a good one; or perhaps
    worked in a geographic or subcultural environment where women were
    *taught* to behave that way and anyone who didn't was looked down on.
    Until Alfred tells us more [Alfrrrrredddddd!?!] we're unlikely to be
    able to come to any good conclusion. 
                                       
    						=maggie

    I've read only the first couple responses.  I believe I agree with
    .2 that sick is sick.  I don't take sick days for this reason any
    more, but before I had children it was a different story.  My cramps
    were so bad that I was in extreme pain for 1 - 3 days, and vomited
    for the first day to day-and-a-half.  The painkillers the doctor
    prescribed for me didn't help much.  One one occasion in college,
    it was so bad I went to the dr. on campus, and was given something
    to put me to sleep (phenobarbitol?).  I'd usually spend two days
    in my dorm room eating nothing but chicken noodle soup and crackers.
    My doctor prescribed birth control pills because that tended to
    decrease the severity of cramping - then it was generally tolerable,
    and decreased the immobility to a day,
    but I didn't like to take them for many months at a time. 
    
    Now that I've had children, the cramping isn't so bad.  Regular
    over-the-counter pain medicines generally keep it under control.
    So, there is a wide range in discomfort levels.  It depends on
    the individual situation.
    
    Paula

    
    Marge and =maggie... good points, definitely!  Perhaps we should
    reserve those lower level, more mundane jobs for men... after all,
    they are more physically equipped to handle them_:-)
    
    (I'M ONLY KIDDING GUYS... never could resist a good straight line_;-)
    
    re:.46  I can sympathize with you.  I had a similar condition before
    having children.  It was hard to start having periods at nine
    years of age ... body not ready to handle it and all that pain and
    secrecy. 

    At the risk of a rathole, I recall that when Green Stamps and Top Value
    stamps were popular, there was a plant in my hometown that
    manufactured/sewed golf gloves and employed women primarily. They
    saw a marked difference in attendance when trading stamps were given
    out each day just for showing up.
    
    Marge

    Thats a good one Marge_:-)

    Re: .46
    
    My grandmother told me that having children was a 'cure' for bad
    cramps.  My response was that the cure is worse than the disease.
    (None for me, thanks.)
    
    If the cramps hit on a weekday, I stay home.  I don't have the energy,
    concentration or patience to work or deal with others.

    I agree with some of the earlier replies, that if you are too
    uncomfortable to be an effective worker, stay home, no matter what's
    wrong.  Sick is sick.  And evaluations should be made on how well
    you do your job.  However, I would say that someone who takes their
    full 12 days/year of sick days routinely is probably not going to do as well
    as someone who is their equal who takes 3-4 days/year.
    
    Back to the question of older women, yes, indeed, the ones that
    I know believed that their period made them very fragile.  My aunts
    were afraid to get cold or wet - even in the summer - to the point
    where they wouldn't bathe or wash their hair at that time of the
    month.  My mother encouraged me to stay home from school (I can't
    Mom, I've got a math test :^) ), then at least don't do anything
    strenuous (gym class).
    
    I would say that a woman that really is this fragile should see
    a doctor about what is causing it.  I can understand declining to
    have surgery in favor of spending 1-2 days a month in bed, but you
    should at least know what's causing it and be able to make the choice.
    
    From personal observation, I only know 1 woman who takes time off
    every month.  She's got endometriosis.
    
    Elizabeth

Re:  .50

>    My grandmother told me that having children was a 'cure' for bad cramps.

In some cases, it seems, there is something to this.  Endometriosis grows
during menstrual periods; when a woman is pregnant, the growth will stop
(along with the pain from it).

It may resume, of course, once the pregnancy is over.

(All of this comes courtesy of my wife's GYN.  I, of course, have no direct
personal experience here.)

					--Q (Dick Wagman)

    It is definitely true that pregnancy will 'cure' cramps and
    endometriosis in the majority of women. I know of several single
    women who have debated having a child after their doctors had told
    them this.
    
    One point that has not been raised here is that cramps/endometriosis/
    pms have only been medically recognized as 'real' in the past 20
    years or so. Before then, a lot of the medical establishment regarded
    much of menstrual distress as psychosomatic. When you *know* something
    is wrong with you but doctors treat you as if there is nothing
    physically wrong then you tend to develop "folk lore" causes and
    solutions to your problems.

    
    Interestingly enough it was the discovery of prostaglandins (originally
    found in men, natch :-}) in the chemistry of the menstruating woman
    that (as I recall it) first helped to establish this as a 'real'
    condition.
    
    Bonnie

    I've been out busy with personal stuff so I'm still catching up
    here. I'm going to try and clarify a few things (up to around
    reply .38). OK?

    My wife was working as a store manager. She had, until that time,
    not known a woman who took of because of bad cramps. So when she
    had some do that it was a surprise. She also had a number of women
    who took off automatically once a month with out complaining about bad
    cramps. They said "It's that time of month and I'm staying home."
    My wife is a very compassionate woman and would have understood it
    if they claimed to be in bad pain or such. At the same time she
    almost never stays home unless she is sick enough to see a Doctor
    or knows that if she doesn't take a sick day that she will have to
    see one. It sort of comes as a surprise to find, after you spend
    30 years knowing mostly people with your same attitude, that some people
    will use the least little excuse to stay home from work. Especially
    when they know that their calling in sick will make a lot more work
    for everyone else. 
    
    Yeah, when you're sick you're sick. But when some
    people regularly take off for the least little thing and make
    everyone else have to work twice as hard it can be hard to be all
    that sympathetic.
    
    			Alfred

    Random thoughts:

    Anyone else notice how few (for a change?) replies from men there
    are? I really believe, even more since I've read all these replies,
    that men are physiologically unable to completely understand this
    issue. I now have more information about it then I've ever had. I'm
    still not sure I understand it deep down. The range of 'discomfort'
    that women have during their periods appears to be incredibly
    broad. This has been enlightening to say the least.

    I am struck by the fact that so little medical research has been
    done in this area. Given that 50% of the population is affected,
    directly, by this every month, (And the rest of us are affected
    indirectly as well.), a lot more should have been done a long
    time ago to increase the understanding and reduce the discomfort.
    Look at how recently things like PMS have been accepted as real,
    ie not imaginary, problems. This should not be.

    Why isn't this stuff explained to boys in Health Ed? It seems that
    it should be so that they understand what is happening to the females
    in their life. I wonder if the hormonal and emotional changes that
    happen to a women contribute to men not understanding women because
    they (the men) are so unaware to the explanation? Not knowing about
    what a woman goes through many men assume that women are not rational.
    Why else (if you didn't know about all those hormone changes) would
    a woman be nice one day and a nasty bitch the next?

    Thanks for all the replies here.

    		Alfred

    I usually don't have a problem with PMS - but the cramps have been
    known to leave me bed ridden.  It use to be a lot worse until they came
    out with the prescription motrin.  But ever since I went on the pill,
    Advil usually does the trick.  Still 2 or 3 times a year I get hit with
    cramps that leave my head spinning and I just stay home with a heating
    pad. Sick is Sick is Sick.  For 2 or 3 times a year - my performance
    certainly should  not be affected by this. 
    
    My mom is the type who has bad cramps but would never stay home - until
    one day while she was teaching she passed out due to the severe pain
    and loss of blood. The school nurse ended up driving her home.  Now
    when she has bad cramps she stays home. 
                                              
    Suzanne

>    Why else ... would
>    a woman be nice one day and a nasty bitch the next?

gosh, sounds like me without the hormone changes...
	Mez