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Conference turris::womannotes-v2

Title:	ARCHIVE-- Topics of Interest to Women, Volume 2 --ARCHIVE
Notice:	V2 is closed. TURRIS::WOMANNOTES-V5 is open.
Moderator:	REGENT::BROOMHEAD

Created:	Thu Jan 30 1986
Last Modified:	Fri Jun 30 1995
Last Successful Update:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:	1105
Total number of notes:	36379

326.0. "Are you a good girl, take the test!!" by AZUR::HACHE () Mon Dec 05 1988 07:42

I am currently reading a book called "The Good Girl Syndrom" which I would
highly recommend. I bought my copy in England but I believe it is also
available from MacMillan Publishing co, 866 Third Avenue, New York, NY.
10022.

In this book there is a test to indicate if you are suffering from the
"Good Girl Syndrom", here goes:

Answer 0 - almost never applies
1 - occurs sometimes
2 - almost always applies

1) You believe there might be something basically wrong with you
that's making you unhappy.

2) You're afraid to ask a man for a date or initiate a phone call -
he'll think you're too aggressive.

3) You feel better about yourself when you don't have sex.

4) You feel guilty whenever you have your own way, even if it's for
something simple.

5) You think that you are "BAD" because you think about sex too often.

6) The thought of having to support yourself fills you with terror.

7) You don't like to rock the boat, even if something doesn't seem
right.

8) Ideally, you would like your man to be better than you are - taller,
smarter, older, more experienced.

9) You feel guilty if you shirk a domestic duty - neglect to clean up
the house or make your man cook for himself for a change.

10) You constantly seek the approval of men, whether at work or at home.

11) You would feel uncomfortable discussing sex with your children
even in a positive way.

12) In your heart of hearts you believe "a woman cannot have both love
and career success."

13) You believe that in a worldly, important topics, such as business,
politics and science, men are inherently smarter.

14) It is more difficult for you to say no to a man than to a woman
when he asks you to do somehting you'd prefer not to do, such
as running an errand or doing a favor.

15) An inner voice tells you that it is the goal of a good woman to
help her man succeed, even if he doesn't help her.

16) You truly believe that sacrificing for others, even if it means
ignoring your wants, makes you a better person.

17) You give up men friends when you enter into an intimate relationship
with a man.

18) Deep down, you worry that you are selfish for wanting independence.

19) You still seek the approval, not just the advice, of your parents
for major decisions in your life.

20) You would be afraid to stimulate or bring yourself to orgasm during
lovemaking.

21) You find yourelf attending more meetings, weddings, funerals because
you should, not because you want to.

22) You believe you aren't allowed to show anger.

23) You respect what is old, such as work schedules, mealtimes, opening
a dorry for a lady, and are suspicious of change.

24) You feel guilty over spending your "husband's [or lover's] money"

25) You eat like a bird when you go with a man to an expensive
restaurant; even if you're hungry if wouldn't be right to eat too
much.

26) You believe that the most important place for a woman to be is in the
home.

27) You mother or father comes to mind whenever you go against a rule
they taught you when you were a child.

28) You make plans with friends and family, even if you don't want to
see them, and consequently resent them for causing you to have a
bad time.

29) It's hard for you to accept compliments; often you think they
come from only ingenuine politeness.

30) You wear fitted business clothes to work even though you hate them
and would rather wear a more comfortable dress or slacks.

31) You haven't done anything really new in more than a month.

32) You use sulking or silence to get what you want and show your
displeasure.

33) You are terrified at the thought of a parent or child accidently
"catching" you in the sex act.

34) You feel that rules should be followed because they are made
by people who's judgement is better than yours.

35) When you break a rule you feel bad and thin you should be punished.

36) You assume traditionally "feminine" roles. You do dishes, iron
clean even if you might prefer to trade off with your husband
for some of his chores.

37) You feel you're not complete without a man who loves you.

38) You would do almost anything to avoid a fight or confrontation.

39) You find yourself making statemnts such as "Things have always been
this way," "You can't beat the system", "You can't fight city hall"
"That's only natural".

40) You eel uneasy at work because you fear the supervisor or colleges
will uncover the "real" you.

Now tally your numbers. The following guide will show the degree to which you are a victim
of the Good Girl Syndrome.

0 to 20 You are already an independent woman. You set your own rules for
personal fulfillment. Read this book to validate your approach
to total living or to help someone else.

21 to 50 The Good Girl Syndrome is looming on the horizon. Read the
instructions outlined in the next section to determine where
you need to focus your energy. There may be only a few areas
that need work.

51 to 80 The Good Girl Syndrome is in full operation. You need to
give your complete attention to the steps necessary for
clearing each program. If you find that this book simply does
not offer enough, you may want to speak with a therapist.

T.R	Title	User	Personal Name	Date	Lines
326.1	I'm so good, I'm bad!	WOODRO::FAHEL	Amalthea, the Silver Unicorn	`Mon Dec 05 1988 09:06`	5
	And what is wrong with being a "Good Girl"? (I ranked 23) K.C.
326.2		COGMK::CHELSEA	Mostly harmless.	`Mon Dec 05 1988 12:26`	5
	Re: .1 Judging from what I saw in the survey, a "Good Girl" allows others to think for her and dictate her actions, possibly because she has low self-esteem and seeks approval/affirmation/acceptance.
326.3		ULTRA::ZURKO	UI:Where the rubber meets the road	`Mon Dec 05 1988 12:43`	7
	... which is why I'm surprised I only got a 20. I do have a lot of issues around anger, parents, and approval from authority figures. But a lot of my authority figures these days are women! So, I think the survey is _very_ skewed towards overcoming male dominance. Which I have :-). Mez
326.4	no good girl here	APEHUB::STHILAIRE	a simple twist of fate	`Mon Dec 05 1988 12:47`	4
	I got a 13. Lorna
326.5		SLSTRN::DONAHUE	the Imp	`Mon Dec 05 1988 13:02`	8
	No flames, just my humble opinion. When I first read the survey, I was a little set off. If I'm assertive and my own person, that's not "GOOD"? Anyway, I got a 26. I'm not too good, either. Susan
326.6	What is "good" you ask?	ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI	Ah, the road within without	`Mon Dec 05 1988 15:22`	19
	The test reflects the results of a parenting style that tends to "invalidate" a young person's actual perceptions and feelings, for the sake of teaching what is supposedly "good". This is embodied in the following example statement: "You dont want those shoes, you want these ones here. Good people wont like you if you wore those shoes" In this example, the freedom to choose what one really wants goes out the window in favor of what one is supposed to want. Note how it is supported by a follow-up statement that is utter ca-ca, in regards to what is "good". The ramifications of this parenting style are manifold, effecting adult self-esteem and behaviors. Joe Jas
326.7	I didn't do so good	AZUR::HACHE		`Tue Dec 06 1988 04:50`	18
	I'm not sure the answer to the test would always be the same either, when I was single and living alone I would have been somewhere in the 20 range also, but with many changes in my life and lifestyle (i.e. move to a new country, marriage to a European, etc) my rating was in the high 40's. That probably explains why I'm frustrated and angry most of the time, I need to do some heavy attitude adjustment. I find that being uprooted from what was my comfort zone has lowered my self-confidence a great deal. Moving to a new culture causes you to have a lot more doubt about yourself, you constantly think it is them or is it me... Anyway, I thought the test was interesting even if I was devestated by the results. Cheers..
326.8		CSC32::SPARROW	MYTHing, once again	`Tue Dec 06 1988 12:06`	5
	I just took the test, got a score of 3. according to the test, I'm not doing so bad, but then I didn't think I had a problem before the test. vivian
326.9	:-}	WMOIS::B_REINKE	Mirabile dictu	`Tue Dec 06 1988 12:12`	6
	Vivian, I got a 6....my husband commented that he'd always known I was an independant person. Bonnie
326.11	hmmmm	LEZAH::BOBBITT	recursive finger-pointing ensued	`Tue Dec 06 1988 13:44`	6
	26 guess I'll have to work on it... -Jody
326.12	a PERFECT 10	RAVEN1::AAGESEN	strugglin' for the legal tender . . .	`Tue Dec 06 1988 14:32`	7
	Guess I must be part of some minority. I had to default better than 25% of these questions with "not applicable". (n/a's = 0, right?:-})
326.13	An 8!!!	BSS::VANFLEET	6 Impossible Things Before Breakfast	`Tue Dec 06 1988 15:49`	4
	What a shock...I'm doing better than I thought! Nanci
326.14		APEHUB::STHILAIRE	a simple twist of fate	`Tue Dec 06 1988 15:51`	9
	Re .12, how could that many be "not applicable"? The only one that was "not applicable" for me was the one about needing parents advice or approvable all the time or whatever, so I put 0. (If parents are not living or elderly and senile it wouldn't apply.) Just wondering. Lorna
326.15		USMFG::PJEFFRIES	the best is better	`Tue Dec 06 1988 16:27`	4
	I'm a 6, but I'm not suprised. +pat+
326.16	these seemed non-applicable	RAVEN1::AAGESEN	strugglin' for the legal tender . . .	`Tue Dec 06 1988 16:46`	8
	re .14, lorna I wrote off as n/a 8,9,11,15,17,24,25,36,37 . . . . .that's 9/40 (well, almost 25%) robin
326.17	could it be...?	CIVIC::JOHNSTON	a pole in my right half-plane? pfthhhh!	`Tue Dec 06 1988 16:55`	8
	When I first tallied the 8, I thought that it might mean I'm <gasp!> ...well...strident. But then I realised that I just don't care. Ann p.s. glad, but not surprised, to see all the low scores.
326.18	could it be age, er um, or experience :-) ?	WMOIS::B_REINKE	Mirabile dictu	`Tue Dec 06 1988 17:03`	8
	Ann, I've met both Pat Jeffres and Marge Davis, and I don't think either of them are strident, and I don't think I am (tho others will have to attest to that). One thing that the three of us have in common is that we are all over 40. That may have an effect on our scores. Bonnie
326.19		BANZAI::M_DAVIS	Beyond the ridiculous to the sublime...	`Tue Dec 06 1988 17:30`	6
	Bonnie, I don't consider you strident either, but then again, it may be a case of "Marge you're so strident, you wouldn't know one if it bit you!" Over 40 does count in my book. If I'd taken this test in my early 20's, the number would be MUCH higher... Marge
326.20		SSDEVO::GALLUP	Arizona 68 Temple 50!!!!!	`Tue Dec 06 1988 19:09`	17
	sure is nice to have a workstation with a calculator on it! :-) I ranked a 15....but there were 3 or 4 questions that I REALLY didn't want to answer 1 or 2 to because I don't want to do things like that or feel that way , but I end up do it/feeling it anyway.... room for improvement, I guess...those 3 or 4 questions really made me think, though! (i'm only 23, I've got plenty of time to "change my ways" on those 3 or 4, right?) 8^) kath
326.21		WMOIS::B_REINKE	Mirabile dictu	`Tue Dec 06 1988 19:24`	5
	Marge, It would have been MUCH higher for me also 20 years ago! Bonnie
326.22		VLNVAX::OSTIGUY		`Wed Dec 07 1988 07:41`	1
	I scored an 8. I'm not surprised.
326.23	I wonder????	USMFG::PJEFFRIES	the best is better	`Wed Dec 07 1988 08:43`	5
	It would have been much higher for me 20 years ago also. BTW I've been divorced 20 years, (I wonder if that has anything to do with it?)
326.24	13 at age 32	VAXRT::CANNOY	Convictions cause convicts.	`Wed Dec 07 1988 09:03`	7
	Well, I came in at 13. Not too bad. I did have 3 questions that were 2, all of which are problems which I have known about for a long time and am continuing to work on. A couple of the questions that I had to answer as 1 surprised me a little bit. Always room for improvement, I guess. Tamzen
326.25	but 20 yrs. ago I was a _very_ good girl	CIVIC::JOHNSTON	a pole in my right half-plane? pfthhhh!	`Wed Dec 07 1988 09:47`	12
	Bonnie, et al. I thought my phrasing made it _abundantly_ clear, that I was being silly. So I left off the smiley face. I don't think that I'm strident in the least [all ranting from my brother-in-law to the contrary] For the record, I am 33. I've been away from my parents for 17 years, and married for 15 to a man whose dust I wold be eating if I showed that kind of deferential attitude -- supportive, but not supporting of dependency. Ann
326.26	I got a "7"!	PARITY::DDAVIS	THINK SUNSHINE	`Wed Dec 07 1988 10:00`	7
	I wasn't going to do this because I KNEW I wasn't a "good girl" but after reading all the replies I just had to find out how "bad" I really was. It was not a surprise! Thanks for posting this. -Dotti.
326.27	I got a 34	DMGDTA::WASKOM		`Wed Dec 07 1988 11:33`	11
	So ok, I'm the quintessential 'dutiful daughter'. I'm 36 and divorced. But a lot of these I answered with a "1" 'cause sometimes it matters and sometimes it doesn't what the other folks in my life think - but I'M the one to decide when it matters. :-) Alison
326.28	I like me	WOODRO::FAHEL	Amalthea, the Silver Unicorn	`Wed Dec 07 1988 12:24`	4
	I am perfectly happy just the way I am. I feel no need for "improvement". K.C.
326.29		AQUA::WALKER		`Wed Dec 07 1988 13:39`	3
	I'm bad! m
326.30		COGMK::CHELSEA	Mostly harmless.	`Wed Dec 07 1988 14:31`	13
	I work out to an 11, though it's iffy in some places. For instance, I don't exactly "respect what is old" so much as appreciate it and my attitudes about expressing anger are more because of what I don't want to be (like my father) than what I feel is 'good.' I'm well aware that I'm very selfish, so sacrificing for others would indeed make me a better person; on the other hand, I'm fully aware of the need for selfishness. My mother's approval was a lot more important to me in high school. Then I went halfway across the country (from Texas to New Hampshire) to go to college. Independence was something I learned fast and thoroughly enjoyed. Handling things on my own was something I took pride in. Nowadays it's more a matter of course.
326.31	Anything but that!	SLOVAX::HASLAM	Creativity Unlimited	`Wed Dec 07 1988 15:55`	4
	Oh-my-gawd! I'm NOT a good girl. Whew! I wasn't even close--a perfect 0. What if my husband finds out???;) Barb
326.32		PACKER::WHARTON	Yah, Karen for President!	`Wed Dec 07 1988 16:15`	5
	re .31 Naughty naughty! I am not a good girl either. Please don't tell my mother.
326.33	8	RAINBO::TARBET		`Thu Dec 08 1988 11:45`	4
	woosh I was gettin' worried there for a minute, but then everything stabilised. =maggie
326.34	all this in 25 years	IAMOK::KOSKI	If I ever get out of here...	`Thu Dec 08 1988 12:23`	6
	A grand total of 0, I was begining to think I was the only one, when I started reading the replys I was quite suprised to see the high scores. I guess the 0's are the independent type, I always have been. Gail
326.36		SEDJAR::THIBAULT	It doesn't make sense. Isn't it	`Thu Dec 08 1988 22:13`	5
	Well, I pulled a 3. My father says I've been pretty much independant since the age of 3. But I think I'm mellowing in my old age...a few years ago I would've come up with a negative number... Jenna
326.37	Speaking from personal experience...	SSGBPM::KENAH	Lifeblood, weeping from my eyes	`Fri Dec 09 1988 09:57`	5
	"Good Girl?" A person (male or female) who gets a high score on this test isn't "Good" - she/he is a codependent, and that is not good. andrew
326.38	Would that it were never true ...	SQM::MAURER	Rest you merry	`Fri Dec 09 1988 12:17`	5
	Ah, but frequently in our society (in the past, sometimes today) a co-dependent woman is a "good girl". All those independent women can be perceived as disturbing the status quo.
326.40		RAINBO::TARBET		`Fri Dec 09 1988 13:38`	9
	<--(.39) Eagle, "co-dependency" is psychologese for "a relationship in which the neurotic needs of the participants hook into one another, reinforcing the pathologies and reducing the possibility for anyone's growth"...it really has nothing to do with "interdependency", which is what most healthy relationships exhibit. =maggie
326.42		RAINBO::TARBET		`Fri Dec 09 1988 14:07`	17
	um, did it sound as though I was trying to clip your wings, Eagle? That wasn't my intention, honest, if I sounded frosty please put it down to my irritation at the %$@#$% term itself: "co-dependency" is a terrible term because practically everyone interprets it exactly as you did. It'd be much better to call it something relatively clear like "neurotic interdependence" Sure it tells us something to merely know the numbers: that the woman reporting her score believes that she falls into a certain place on that scale, and (typically) that that outcome is/isn't expected. As to discussing where we took the hits, I'd be willing to bet lunch that most of us took them in much the same places. I can't recall offhand which mine were exactly (I'll look them up if you really want to know in detail) but they were all around "generic" self-worth. =maggie
326.44		STC::HEFFELFINGER	Aliens made me write this.	`Sat Dec 10 1988 14:09`	8
	Well, I guessed that I would score below 10 even before I started the test. So it's no surprise to me that I scored a 4. I'm 27. I got zeros on all questions except 8,9,32,40 on which I got 1's. tlh
326.45	I'm so bad, I'm good!	BLITZN::LITASI	Time and Tide	`Sat Dec 10 1988 15:11`	15
	When I saw Vivian took this test and scored a 3, I thought I could not top that. I don't know anyone more independent than Vivian (a compliment...Vivian!). But alas, I scored a 3 also. I scored a 2 on 8 and a 1 on 19 (sometimes). Looking back on #8, I think it's still true...I still would like "my man" to be better, ideally, however, so few are as perfect as I am :)... I've never been a "good girl" and never will be... It's not nearly as much fun as being bad :) sherry
326.46		SEDJAR::THIBAULT	It doesn't make sense. Isn't it	`Mon Dec 12 1988 11:02`	23
	re: < Note 326.39 by AERIE::THOMPSON "tryin' real hard to adjust..." > >> The feminist quest for greater independence (from men) is reaction >> to years of not having an equal partnership. To seek total self- >> sufficiency is simply to carry the quest to an extreme that may >> not be any better than extreme dependency was for women before WWII. Eagles, Dependance for me has absolutely nothing to do with feminism or independance from men. And it's never actually been my goal, I simply grew up that way. Probably because my role models were 3 older brothers. I grew up, as they did, knowing that I would have to provide for myself when I grew up. It never occured to me that I would need a man to support me. It just seemed natural that I would have to be self-sufficient. But that doesn't mean I don't want a man in my life. My SO and I are partners but I don't depend on him to support me...I do depend on him to be there as we walk thru life however. But I got by 28 years of life pretty much on my own, and knowing I could do it again if I had to gives me a sense of security I guess. It also allows me to worry about other things (like upcoming mortgage payments..e gadz) So I'm not UNlearning anything...I'm simply being me. Jenna
326.47	goody two shoes?	APEHUB::STHILAIRE	Golden days before they end	`Mon Dec 12 1988 12:05`	8
	I guess I'm not really very bad at all. I got a 13 - a "high" score compared with most that have been reported. It's also high for my age (39). I got 13 1's and no 2's. I don't necessarily agree with all of the ones I got a 1 on, but I answered honestly. I got 1's on questions, 2, 6, 7, 8, 10, 20, 22, 27, 29, 31, 32, 37 & 38. Lorna
326.48	who am I really	NOETIC::KOLBE	The dilettante debutante	`Mon Dec 12 1988 15:12`	21
	I had a real problem when I read the questions here. I didn't tally up my score because it depends on the difference between what I do as opposed to what I feel. The person I act like would get a low score (I once had a manager laugh at me when I asked to go to assertiveness training, he said if I was any more assertive my group wouldn't be able to handle it) but the person I FEEL like is a totally different animal, she got a really high score. I'm on my own, I'm surviving and doing well, I don't let people walk all over me. But as it says in the song I "break just like a little girl". Internally I can be racked with indecision and insecurity while outwardly I charge forward. I want someone who is strong and able to "take care of me" while I continue to do it on my own. My ex once accused me of wanting a "daddy" and in some ways (emotionally) that's true. Yet, at work, everyone sees me as a very strong person, I've been know to strike fear into the hearts of those I've argued with cause I'll tell what I think no holds barred. I feel like a spilt personality. liesl
326.49		ULTRA::ZURKO	UI:Where the rubber meets the road	`Mon Dec 12 1988 16:47`	5
	Liesl, I think we're meant to answer about how we feel. Most of the questions were phrased that way. And, of course, that's tougher. Mez
326.50	Not good vs bad; girl vs woman!	DEMING::FOSTER		`Tue Jan 03 1989 13:28`	15
	I haven't tallied my score yet, but I feel the same way as .48. I know that if I went by actions vs feelings, I would get totally different scores. I'll tally later. But I wanted to point out. Everyone has gotten huffy about the word "good" in the question 'are you a "good girl"?' and replied with the antonym of "bad". Why not consider that to score low probably means that you are a "good woman"? I think the kind of independence and development of personal values represented by a low score is far more a sign of maturity, especially in our society, than it is a measure of "goodness". 'ren with her 2 cents...