Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    I thought I heard something recently about it having the potential
    to cause cancer.
 
    A male friend once told me that he had spent the night with a woman 
    who had had her breasts enlarged and he was very dissapointed to 
    discover that they were as hard as rocks.  I wonder if that's always
    the case.
    
    I, personally, can't understand having surgery for cosmetic reasons
    unless someone is horribly ugly or disfigured.  The money, the pain
    - it just wouldn't be worth it to me - and there's still always
    going to be *somebody* who's still better looking.  I guess looks
    are more important to some than others.  I know the way I look is
    more important to me than it is to some people - but it's still
    not that important.  The way I look at it if you're not ugly and
    your husband loves you, you're doing okay.  But we all have different
    obsessions in life.
    
    Lorna
    
    P.S.  I *am* smaller than average and the way I see it, having them
    made bigger would be joining the enemy :-) - buying into a shallow
    superficial society that says one woman is more desirable than another
    just because her tits are bigger.  That hurt me a lot when I was
    younger, but now I like myself the way I am.  
    
    P.P.S.  .0, hope you don't mind these random opinions on the subject.
     I don't know any facts about it.
    

    Being very flatchested I looked into it a few years ago ...and still
    read the odd article just in case the technology has changed... but
    decided against going forward <pi> because of the side-effects. 
    
    There are only a few methodologies in reputable use (and a couple
    disreputable ones --free-silicone injection being the most infamous)
    and they're quite similar:  a silicone bag filled with some substance
    (sterile water is the most popular) is inserted behind the fat and
    glandular tissue through a small incision made in the crease below the
    breast.  
    
    The potential side-effects or natural-but-unwelcome outcomes are: loss
    of sensation because the nerves get cut in making the incision,
    hardening of the breasts because of scar-tissue formed when the body
    tries to accommodate these foreign objects, and the potential for later
    disfiguring surgery to remove the implant if trauma or chance should
    cause the bag to leak. 
    
    Not for this kid, I'll stick with my "Thank Goodness" bras. 
    
    						=maggie 

    I'm really glad you started this note, because I was going to begin
    a topic with this article today...
    
    -Jody
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    excerpts from Breast Frenzy by Jeremy Weir Alderson, Self Magazine, 12/88

	Suddenly, they seem to be everywhere, on movie screens, in
magazines, working out right at the next exercise bike at the gym:  women
with incredible bodies - not just long-limbed and sleekly muscled but with
amazingly firm, round, *perfect* breasts.  They're the new Amazons, the
latest incarnation of the feminine ideal. 
	It's almost as if, just as women are beginning to believe an
attractive body is an attainable goal - that given the requisite hours of
workouts and certain caloric minimalism, a woman can achieve a body closer
to her dreams - that ideal itself has shifted.  And what's often needed to
reach it can't be done by a woman alone.
	A look at the numbers reveals women aren't being exactly shy about
seeking surgical help:  well over one million American women have had
breast-enlargement operations (or "augmentation mammoplasties", as they're
medically termed).  Over 93,500 of these operations were done in 1986
alone, according to the latest statistics from the American Society of
Plastic and Reconstructive Surgeons.  At a cost-per-surgery of $1,800 to
$4000, that translates into a $168 to $374 million annual body business.
	What's more, the breast is undeniably the body part that plastic
surgeons operate on most:  In 1986, women had a total of 159,300
enlargements or lifts.  By contrast, fewer than 67,000 face-lifts were done
on men *and* women each year in the past decade.
	What's pushing women to go so far in pursuit of the latest body
ideals?  Bombay-based surgeon Ravin L. Thatte, M.D., expressed his opinion
in a scathing latter to the journal "Plastic And Reconstructive Surgery": -
"Breast implants have been overdone, and the responsibility squarely rests
on a male-dominated and profit-motivated industrial society."...

(the article goes on to describe how this trend may well be the result of
breast fetishes within the culture, women being less secure and having
greater incomes, and various social studies of trends towards larger or
smaller breasts throughout history, which I won't go into because it's six
pages of the magazine...)

	Despite the claims of emotional well-being among women who have had the
operation, a substantial number of experts are not convinced.  In the book
"Changing the Body:  The Psychological Aspects of Plastic Surgery,"  John
and Marcia Kraft Goin, a plastic surgeon and psychiatrist, respectively, at
the University of Southern California Medical School, assert, "It's
important to realize that the charming, outgoing, socially secure manner in
which these patients present themselves is really a protective shell.  It
has been built up over the years to shield and protect an underlying low
self-esteem."
	This shielding truth may help explain why almost 100,000 women a
year remain undaunted by the potential dangers of the body changes they
pursue.  The most common side effect of breast augmentation is capsular
constricture, a hardening of scar tissue around the implants that may occur
up to ONE THIRD of the time.  Sometimes, the breasts become rock-hard and
the implants must be removed.  In fewer cases, the problem can't be treated
at all.  Less frequently, "run of the mill" surgical complications -
scarring, infection, impaired sensation - may also result.
	Implants filled with saltwater can deflate, while those filled with
silicone may slowly leak these chemicals into the body - with still-unknown
effects.  Medical journals have published reports of such post-surgical
possibilities as future immune-system problems and toxic shock syndrome.
There have also been headline-making reports that implants could mask
developing breast tumors on mammograms - nullifying life-saving benefits of
early cancer diagnosis....
	Simply blaming society ignores the important reality of individual
choice:  Just because a certain body shape has become the icon of the
movement doesn't mean an individual woman can't resist it.  Psychologist
Marcia Hutchinson, Ed. D., author of "Transforming Body Image:  Learning to
Love the Body You Have" (which, by the way, is an EXCELLENT BOOK! - typists
note here), sees breast-enlargement surgery as a mere "Band-Aid for women
who are substituting master over one part of their bodies for mastery over
their self-images and their lives."  Rather than being liberating, says Dr.
Hutchinson, it's an admission of powerlessness.  "The surgery may signify
that a woman has the power and money to change her appearance, but it's
also a concession to society's presentation of a women as just so much
packaging."...
	In a Swedish study, authors wondered if women who "had asked for,
and in most cases struggled for" an operation really could make an unbiased
evaluation of the results of the operation.  Hypothesizing that this was
"quite impossible,", the physicians analyzed how the women lived after
their augmentations, not just what they said (which was, 96% of the time,
that they were happy, and would have the operation over again despite any
problems it brought them).  Their conclusion:  there was still a great
deal in the women's attitudes and behavior not improved by the operation.
	Dr. Hutchinson has her own objections:  "Several women patients of
mine have had their breasts enlarged.  Despite the definite change in their
bodies, there hasn't been a significant change in their body images."
	Perhaps the most significant question of all comes from Harvard
Medical School's Dr. Goldwyn:  "What would future archaeologists think if
they found these implants in our tombs?"  he wonders.  "What would they
think we were doing?"

    Re:  .1
    
    I agree with your statement about "...buying into a shallow, super-
    ficial society that says one woman is more desirable than another
    just because her tits are bigger".  
    
    But you also say "...if you're not ugly... you're doing okay."
    What if you are ugly?  You're not okay?  Isn't this also shallow
    and superficial?  Physical beauty is really something to thank
    your parents for.
    
    Of course, in a perfect world, we'd all be judged on the basis of
    our spiritual beauty, which is all we can really personally take
    credit for.
    
    Not a flame or an attack, just some more thoughts on the importance
    of physical appearance in our society.
    
                        ...Lisa V...
    
    

    I feel that I am going to invite the flames, but what the hey,
    I feel a need to express my opinion.
    
    I do not agree with self esteem, I don't agree with negative feelings
    about ones' self, what I do feel is that it is YOUR body, your life,
    and that you should do as you please.
    
    I feel that society while a well intentioned body, often does more
    harm than good.  Examples, the huge scares aroun Radon gas, cyclamates,
    and in this particular case, the theory around breast augmentation.
     From the literature that I have had access to, the potential for
    harm from silicon implants, is EXTREMELY low.  I know, I know, if
    you are the one who gets it....
    
    Breasts are like any other part of the body to me.  If your teeth
    need fixing, you get braces, if you have warts, you get them removed,
    if you have dangerous and painful foot problems like corns, you get
    them fixed.  Finally, if you think your nose is too big, you fix
    it, so why not the breasts?
    
    From my own experience, I am potentially facing the insertion of
    a new knee.  I have a bone disease that is pushing me that way,
    slowly but surely.  I want that knee, because I want to feel better.
     I walk slowly, and with a cane, and I don't want to ANY MORE.
    
    Yes, there is the argument, that one is cosmetic, and the other
    isn't, but I can't agree.  I believe that if you aren't happy, you
    do whatever is necessary(legally) to make yourself feel better.
    
    I think that if you will feel happier having bigger breasts, then
    that is what you should have.  You have but a short life.  Be as
    happy as you can.
    
    
    ANDY
                                                   

    Andy,
    
    You make some interesting points. Did you read the article that
    Jody entered? One thing that it said was that many women who've
    had this surgery say they feel better, but by other standards, it
    sure doesn't look like it helps their feelings about themselves.
    So while what you say sounds good in theory, I was struck by the
    implications of that article.
    
    Liz

    I think it's a bad idea to have surgery just for "fashion"
    purposes.  When flatchested was in, I thought that I should
    have breast reduction surgery so I could "fit in".
    Looking back now I'm glad I never followed through with it.
    Fashion comes and goes.  You can always find styles that
    will enhance your figure if you shop around.  Clothes can
    provide the illusion needed.
    Why cut up our bodies just to conform to some fashion FAD.
    
    Just be sure of your reasoning before going through with 
    the surgeory.  

    Re .5 & .6, actually, when I used the word "ugly" I was thinking
    in terms of people who are horribly disfigured to the point where
    most people would be shocked by their appearance.  I saw a boy once
    whose jaw was so malformed he could hardly eat.  It was really awful.
     I wasn't thinking "ugly" in terms of just not being beautiful enough
    to be on the cover of Cosmopolitan.
    
    Lorna
    

    I do think it is a woman's choice what she does with her body. 
    And no, breast augmentation is not as bad as foot binding or having
    ribs removed to give one that 1890's wasp-waisted look all in the
    name of beauty.  But it is an alteration of your natural body to
    meet a societally decreed norm.  A norm which fluctuates every year.
    Look back to the 60's - when Twiggy was 32-30-32.  Look back to
    the 40's-50's when Jayne Mansfield was 42-2?-39.  The emphasis will
    change.  It always does.  And it may get even more expensive to
    keep up with it.
    
    I have never had the problem of worrying about breast augmentation,
    although at one point I thought about breast reduction.  I think
    society is very focused on how we look, and that's unfortunate.
    Since I started getting in shape, I do look a lot better - and that's
    a two-edged sword.  Some people are starting to want to get to know me
    based on how I look, rather than on who I am (this never really
    happened before, and it's not always the rule now, but as I get
    better looking, who knows?).  I am getting in shape for me - not
    only to look better, but to feel better, and to try and get off my 
    asthma medication.
    
    A strange side-effect is the attention I've gotten from some people.
    I started dating a gentleman a while ago and it fell apart in
    no-time-flat.  Why?  (And at least he was honest enough to admit
    it) What attracted him to me in the first place was that I was
    well-endowed (although he put it much more crassly).  That's hardly
    something one can base any kind of relationship on, be it friends
    or otherwise.
    
    Lately I've discovered I've been buying a lot of sweaters.  Loose
    sweaters.  I'm comfortable wearing these at work because they don't
    draw attention to me.  I don't want *that* kind of attention when
    I'm at work.  Maybe on the dance floor, maybe at a party, but certainly
    not at work.  It's kind of scary to realize that people are *looking*
    at you, when for the whole first quarter century of your life they
    didn't.  A co-worker of mine recently had the dilemma of being stuck
    in a meeting with a man who did nothing but stare at her chest for
    three hours.  How do you deal with something like that?  How do
    you find clothes that fit comfortably and well?  There are two sides
    to every coin, and one must consider both the positive and the negative
    before making any decisions.
    
    Please be aware that NO form of cosmetic surgery or alteration will
    be a panacea.  The change may solve the problems it was desired
    to solve, but any change will bring with it problems of some sort.
    It will require time and effort to change your body image, and the
    resulting attention may not be what you want.  There may be
    complications.  And of course, there is the expense.  Please, think
    carefully...and if you decide it's what you really want to do...then
    do it.  But *think* beforehand.

    -Jody
    
    p.s.  This was really hard to write... it really saddens me that
    so many people on this earth take everything at face value - and
    judge every book they meet by its cover.  It is horrifying to think
    of women as merely ornamental in value to some people.  I read in
    a diet book that many of the women (particularly women, although
    men to some extent also) who lose a great deal of weight gain it
    back, because they feel uncomfortable with the attention, and have
    a difficult time dealing with the world's re-evaluation of them
    once they are "marketably attractive" (a heinous but appropriate
    phrase).

A few thoughts:

In my early 30s I went thru orthodontry for cosmetic
reasons.  (I had a smile that made thought-blurters 
continually ask "Why haven't you fixed your teeth?")

I knew I was self-conscious about my teeth ...
but after the cosmetic appearance was changed ... I realized
that for the past 25 years, EVERYTIME I looked in the mirror,
I had been thinking  .... I oughta get my teeth fixed. It was
a surprise and a pleasure to remove that thought from my 
daily life.

If you find yourself considering the surgery ten or thirty times
a day, then maybe you should. If the thought pops up every
few days or weeks, forget it.  

A few suggestions:

If you want to change your everyday appearance a bit, take 
three hundred dollars and visit a few "expert" lingiere (sp?)
shops, and get yourself measured and fitted with some bras
that will make you look like you think you want to look.
(Yo, noters, can anyone recommend a store like this in the
Boston area? I, for one, need a good sports bra and haven't
found what I need yet.)

  If you go to such a store, ask them about the experience
  of their customers who have had the surgery ... they 
  might have interesting stuff to say.

  If you're feeling racy :)  you might also pick up some
  other stuff that would cause your husband to forget 
  his name  :)  (what's the symbol for Male-In-Extreme Heat?)

If you plan to have children, regardless of breast feeding
plans, check with an OBGYN about this. I've never been pregnant, 
but I can't help wondering if the combination of implants and 
pregnancy might be painful or dangerous.

Be cautious about the info you see in the popular press.
I did some research on pheromones a while ago -- covering the 
period 1972 thru 1987. The popular press had Wonderfully Exciting 
things to say ... but the stories had almost no resemblance to 
the original research.  (If you don't like library research, 
medical researchers are available for $20 to $40 an hour. And be
sure to ask the researcher to report on the ten-year follow up
studies -- that's where a lot of the severe damage is showing up.)

Blow three or four hundred dollars on the lingiere, medical 
research, and medical consults.  (If the money seems outrageous,
then read the 'money paranoia' notes in Vol 1 and 2. They
are some of my very favorite notes in this file ... and they 
also explain why I haven't visited a lingiere shop myself.
But your note has inspired me, so I will.  If it's a useful
experience, I'll post a report of my visit.)                  Meigs

    Having large breasts is no picnic - not only do you get rude remarks,
    stares and comments - it is impossible to find dresses that fit right.
    Fashion or no fashion - the industry is still geared to the skinny.
    Just try finding a dress or bathing suit that fits you right with a
    size 8 bottom and a 16 top.  Everything that looks good on a hanger
    - lying flat - takes on new and different proportions when you put
    it on your body - and most times it is not flattering!  I cannot
    get away with out wearing a bra - and I would love to have the freedom.
    When I'm wearing my pj's with no bra and I run up the stairs - I
    have to hold them in place so they don't hurt.  They don't make
    sports bra's large enough - so jogging is painful.  I could go on
    and on and on...
                                
    My solutions - wear large loose sweaters to avoid the stares- wear
    leotards when doing exercise to hold them in place - go with out a bra
    around the house when I don't mind by boobs hanging down to my belly
    button - buy two two piece bathing suits, one size sixteen and one
    size 8 and take a piece from each. 
    
    
    The grass is always greener!  Be happy the way you are.

    
    NEVER, NEVER have surgery unless it is absolutely necessary!!
    
    the only people in the medical field you won't immediately 
    get this advice from are those making unseemly profits in
    cosmetic surgery who are laughing all the way to the bank
    on the petty vanities of individuals and the idiotic obsession
    society has with appearances.
    
    Bob
    

re: .14

That's how my pop-in-law (the urologist) and his son feel. I'm always startled
by their vehemence, since I was raised to think that doctors are supreme beings
who would never do anything bad for me.
	Mez

    Re the SELF article --  funny, when I skimmed through that issue, I
    avoided the article because it *looked* pro-augmentation (i.e. like a
    celebration of large breasts, with appropriate photos).  "Gee," I
    thought, "More propaganda."  Does this mean I shouldn't skim, or
    SELF should try to match their visual messages to their verbal?
                                                                   
    Re unnecessary surgery -- I guess that's how I feel about it.  I'm
    alive, I'm healthy, I don't need an operation. In any kind of surgery,
    people can get killed from improperly administered anaesthesia. This
    happened recently to someone in my hometown, and without meaning to
    sound alarmist, she was having her breasts augmented.  Surgery is just
    not a risk I (personally) would want to take unless my life already
    depended on it.                                                
                                                                   
    Helen                                                          

    Pam,
    
    There is a middle ground between all out body building and being
    totally flabby and out of shape :-). Your previous note appears
    to imply that you can be only one or the other. 
    
    Bonnie

    Re .18, and I think most women are "somewhere in the middle"!  I've
    never done body building but I sure as h*ll ain't "totally flabby
    and out of shape" :-)!
    
    Lorna
    

    Re .20, how do you find out what percentage of your body weight
    is fat?
    
    Lorna
    

    Hi Lorna
    
    There are several different methods to test bodyfat.  The least
    accurate method (and most available) is the pinch test.  They have
    pinchers and pinch under your arm and your abdomin to see how much
    fat you have.  I've never tried this one.  I know the Westford Regency
    uses this method (Westford, MA).  Theres also one called Bodycomp II.
    They hook an electrode to your wrist and one to your ankle and then
    send an electrical pulse through your body and measure the time
    it takes to get through.  The pulse travels quicker through fat
    than lean body mass, or visa versa.  This is supposed to be +/-
    2% for accuracy.  I know this one is used at New You Fitness Center
    in Lowell, MA.  You don't have to be a member to get tested.  The
    most accurate method, which is what I had last night, is the Water
    Tank Dunk.  You are weighed out of water and then weighed under water.
    Fat floats and lean bodymass sinks.  The heavier you weigh in water
    the leaner you are.  They also calculate how much your lung capacity
    is and the computer does the rest of the work.  Anita Roberts in
    Marlboro, MA offers this test and again, you do not have to be a
    member.  You have to have at least 5 people though because it is
    a lot of work for them to set up the test.  $25.00 is the cost but
    if you have 5 they charge $20.00.  I believe the test at New You
    is around $20.00
    
    Pam

>    You are weighed out of water and then weighed under water.
>    Fat floats and lean bodymass sinks. 

Now when I was taking life guard classes, I thought _everybody_ floats, unless
they're panicy or tense. I mean, _I_ float! Do most people sink?
	Mez

    If you were *all* fat, you'd float like a cork.  If you were *all*
    lean body mass, you'd sink.  Almost everybody has enough fat to keep
    them floating, so the generalization is good.  (Also, a little bit
    of air in your lungs will serve as a pretty good float.)
    
    On the other hand, if I exhaust my lungs, I will sink gently to the
    bottom of a pool and stay there until I actively swim up to the
    surface again.
    
    	-Neil

    I don't think your entertaining the notion is at all foolish.  Always
    question the status quo - otherwise, how will you get where you
    want to go?
    
    I'm also glad you took time to gather facts and opinions, maybe
    you read a report or two on the subject, maybe you asked (or would
    have asked) a doctor for an opinion....it's always easier to make
    a decision once you have some information.
    
    -Jody

	 Gosh!  You can tell I haven't been in this notesfile in
	 awhile!

	 Anyway..I, too, am small,,,,but let me tell you I LOVE IT!
	 I joke with my mom and my sister all the time about how big
	 they are and that they have to wear a bra.  I don't think
	 I've worn a bra in about 6 months...I curse the day that I
	 will have to put one on because the shirt is too thin to NOT
	 wear one...!

	 Speaking of body building...I've just started doing this,
	 correct me if I am wrong, but can't you build your pecs to
	 the point that you have "cleavage" without looking masculine?
	 Many bodybuilders (women) I see around the club are small,
	 but have really nice chests....and I'm heading that way...I
	 can see a little decrease in the size, but I also notice they
	 are more firm and, yes, more defined...

	 just a thought!

	 kathy

    Kathy - I don't think we have to worry about getting to look too
    masculine by bodybuilding.  The majority of the professionals look
    masculine because they take steriods.  I have seen a couple of women
    who are into bodybuilding that have small breasts but have a great
    looking chest (not talking about flat chested, just not BIG).
    I am just starting to get that line down the center of my chest
    and love it.  The more I work at it the more defined I should get.
    I love to see how many women are into bodybuilding now.  Check out
    the FLEX notesfile on bodybuilding if you haven't already.  There
    are quite a few women who write in there and special notes on women
    in there.   
    
    Pam

    
    
    Kathy, a suggestion for 'thin' shirts-have you tried wearing
    a camisole?   They are very comfortable,and to my mind, look
    much nicer than the straps and outline of a bra under a thin
    blouse.  I have a variety, ranging from cotton to silk, most
    with lace or insets to make them prettier.
    
    Deb
    
    

    re:  .28
    
    Where would I find notefile FLEX?
    
    Martha

	 UFP::FLEX

	 really a good notesfile...I've been wading my way through it
	 every chance I get for the last month or so...really good
	 information.


	 RE:  Camisoles!  Yea!  I've got lots too, but there are times
	 that a camisole just won't fit the ticket...the shirt doesn't
	 hang right or something...believe me, I'd rather change the
	 shirt than put on a bra!  :-)  Besides, a camisole makes me
	 feel a lot more sexy!  :-)

	 but, back to the base note for a second...do what you feel is
	 right for you!  Its important for a person to feel good about
	 themself!

	 kath

    re .27
    
    Yeah, yeah.. My sentiments exactly.
    
    I have small breasts, as in below average, and I absolutely love
    my breasts! No bras for me either. The only times I wear bras are
    when my nipples show through the material of the shirt/blouse, etc,
    and when I exercise.
     
    I look at well-endowed women and say to myself, "Gawd, it must be 
    awful to have such large breasts, can't imagine carrying all that 
    load on my chests." (Let's just say tha I am prejudice. :-) ) 
    I won't have my breasts enlarged even if you  paid me and  even if 
    the procedure became risk-free. I don't have any problems sexually 
    speaking with my size. Yes, there are men who love big breasts, but 
    there are many men who like the little handfuls.
    
    I think that I read some where that small breast are better for
    producing milk as well as small breast are more sensitive. Has anyone
    else heard/read about this?                       
    
    Karen

    The French say....."the perfect size is if they fit in a
                        champagne glass.."
    
    I hope they mean the wide-top stem glasses, not the tall
    fluted ones ;-)
    
    pat

    re .33
    
    tangent re champagne glasses ...
                                                   
    I've never seen a French person (or European, for that matter) drink
    champagne from a wide-top stem glass.  You lose all the bubbles that
    way!  I think this was an American invention.  
    
    Helen

    what's wrong with large brandy snifters?
    
    ;)
    

    re: .35
    
    Yeah, but how would I fit through that small opening at the top????
    #;-)
    
    -Dotti.

    re .38, there you go!  According to your friend you're already
    "perfect" :-)!
    
    I remember a male friend who made me feel good about myself one
    day, too.  Several years ago at the DEC facility I worked at then
    I was standing with some male techs by the vending machines in the
    hall at break.  A new female worker walked by.  She was very well
    endowed and all the guys I was standing with made a big thing about
    it.  Did you see that?  *Jesus Christ*, etc.!  Well, since I'm so
    small *there* , I felt terrible.  I said, You guys are awful!  You're
    sexist pigs, etc!  My closest friend (of the guys in the group)
    turned to me and said, What?  What's the matter with you?  You jealous
    or something?  I said, It just makes me sick that men make such
    a big deal out of big boobs and I don't have them!  He looked at
    me, laughed, shook his head, and said, Well, hell, if everybody
    had an ass like yours, they wouldn't have even had to invent *tits*!
    He made me feel much better.  He made me laugh and feel good about
    myself.  That's what I call a real friend. :-)
    
    Lorna
    

RE: Lorna

>>>    He looked at
>>>    me, laughed, shook his head, and said, Well, hell, if everybody
>>>    had an ass like yours, they wouldn't have even had to invent *tits*!

	 HeeHeeHee!   I've had just about the same thing said to me a
	 couple times too!  8-)

	 Also, last week I described myself to someone as being
	 "small", and when he saw a picture of me he said I was crazy
	 if I ever wanted my boobs any bigger and that they were
	 perfect!  8^)  (What's the saying..."more than a mouthful is a
	 waste"???? At least that's how I've heard it...)  8^)

	 

    	I haven't read all the replies yet but after reading .13 just
    had to enter a reply.  
    
    	Snicker! snicker! snicker!  
    
    	I'm also a D cup and I also hold the boobs running down the stairs 
    without a bra.  (Actually I'm 4 1/2 months pregnant now so I'm actually
    somewhere between a DD and DDD cup right now, so I even hold when I
    *do* have a bra on.) 
    
    	In addition to tops and bottoms not matching, button up the front
    shirts don't close right.  Oh no! it's The GAP.  (Unless of course
    I get a shirt whose shoulders hang halfway down to my elbows...) 
                                                      
    	Laying on my stomach can be/is uncomfortable because they get
    "squished". 
    
    	You pay $1-2 more for a bra with a D cup than the same style
    in  B or C!  (Just try to find a strapless bra with a D cup!)                                
    
    	Without a bra, you have two extra, sweaty "armpits".  (Gross
    but true.)
    
    	Ultimately it's your decision and you should do what you feel
    comfortable doing.  Just be aware that when you reach a certain
    size you start finding some real draw backs.  
                                          
    	Good luck in your decision!
    
    tlh
    

    	Re: the comment that small breasts are better for nursing...
    
    	I've been reading a lot about breastfeeding recently and there
    is *no* demonstrated link between size (big or small) and milk
    producing ability.                  
    
    tlh                                     
    

    in re bigger than "X" is wasted...
    
    after I had gained some weight that I wasn't very happy
    about I heard that remark in re handful..
    
    my response which cheerfulled me up, esp to realize the
    thought behind it was true, was...
    
    
    "my husband has big hands"

    
    :-)

    
    
    But the realy important part of all of this to me is that
    
    
    each woman (and man for that matter) is attractive in her own
    right. For each (small,medium,large) busted woman there is a man
    who likes (small,medium,large) busted women. For each (quiet,
    moderate,outspoken) woman, for each (various intelligence levels)
    woman, there is a man who likes that level of intelligence. and
    for those women who are oriented towards women, there are an
    equal variety of women who like all the women who like them as well.
    
    Let us all try to be proud of the body we have. (Even if we
    want to change it a bit!) I like to think that Lorna and I and
    Dawn, and Maggie, and Pat Jeffries, and Liz A and Mez Z and
    Lee T, and Leslie S and, oh my heavens all the =wn= noters I have
    met and all those I haven't are beautiful/handsome women and the men are
    beautiful/handsome men, because they are all *real* people, with
    their own loves and sorrows, and successes and failures, and joys
    and desires.
    
    Bonnie

    RE: .43
    
    Well put, Bonnie!  I agree 100%
    
    
    Barb

Re: .42

    I'm told  that  while  there's  no  difference  in  milk producing
    ability,  small  breasts  are  somewhat more convienent for breast
    feeding.  It's supposed to be easier for the kid to get the nipple
    in  his  mouth,  and  you  don't  have  to be as careful about not
    suffocating  the kid. (Babies are *small*). This from a woman with
    very large breasts who was breast feeding at the time.

Re: .43

    Very well put.

--David

<    I'm told  that  while  there's  no  difference  in  milk producing
<    ability,  small  breasts  are  somewhat more convienent for breast
<    feeding.  It's supposed to be easier for the kid to get the nipple
<    in  his  mouth,  and  you  don't  have  to be as careful about not
<    suffocating  the kid. (Babies are *small*). This from a woman with
<    very large breasts who was breast feeding at the time.

Yup.  My breastfeeding instructor always tells her classes that you CANNOT
suffocate a baby while breastfeeding.  In our class she said that, then looked
at me and said, "except in your case".

Breastfeeding an infant when you have very large breasts takes two hands, and
there are fewer positions that you can easily use.

Also, (I don't know if this has been mentioned yet) if you get your breasts
enlarged and you want to horseback ride or jog (or run, even a short distance),
get a GOOD, preferably underwire, bra.  Otherwise it can be very painful,
and very embarassing.

            Carol

       Anybody see the "Designing Women" show on breast enlargement?
       pretty funny. liesl

    from _Science News_, vol 134, no 24 (December 10, 1988):

    A Food and Drug Administration (FDA) advisory panel has voted
    against banning silicone breast implants, at least for now.  The
    advisory group convened Nov. 23 after the Public Citizen Health
    Research Group (HRG) urged it to ban the implants.

    HRG, a consumer group based in Washington, D.C., says the implants
    may cause cancer, citing animal studies done by Dow Corning Corp. 
    In those studies, 23 percent of female rats implanted with silicone
    developed cancer.

    FDA's panel weighed testimony and research presented at its meeting
    and concluded that current information does not clearly establish a
    hazard to humans.  "It is unlikely that the types of tumors seen in
    rats would occur in humans," the panel said.  The group did
    recommend that women considering implants "be advised of the
    possible risks," and suggested FDA set up a patient registry to keep
    track of possible ill effects of the implants.  The panel will meet
    again in January to consider any new data and discuss the issue
    further.

    Each year, about 130,000 women in the United States get the
    implants, according to FDA estimates.  About 85 percent of the
    procedures are done to enlarge healthy breasts.

    Dow officials contend the implants are safe, a view backed by the
    American Society of Plastic and Reconstructive Surgeons (ASPRS). 
    "Women with breast implants have been followed for up to 25 years,
    and the type of cancer found in the study of rodents has never been
    reported in this population," says ASPRS President George Reading of
    Rochester, N.Y.

    HRG Director Sidney M. Wolfe argues that the average follow-up on
    silicone implants has been only 10 to 12 years, not long enough for
    cancer to develop in some cases.  He says researchers have shown in
    humans that silicone leaches out of its implant bag into surrounding
    tissue, raising concerns about cancer development in other parts of
    the body.

    re:.48
    
    What I'd like to know is if the female rats were found to be more
    attractive to the male rats after they had the silcone implants. :-)
    
    --- jerry

    Haven't been in Notes for a while.
    
    I have friends who've had both -- enlargement and reduction.  Both
    are very happy.  The young (mid-20's) lady who had the reduction
    done said they removed 8 lbs.  She felt as if the weight of the
    world had been lifted off her shoulders.  It was for health as well
    as cosmetic reasons.  She's never had children, but supposedly this
    isn't a health risk.
    
    My friend who had enlargements (over 10 years ago) was in her late
    30's and had three children with no plans for more.  She was so
    small she only attempted to breast-feed once.  This lady wore a
    girls size 12.  After unsuccessfully trying to gain weight (I swear!)
    she had implants done.  Her problem was she hadn't gotten as much
    info as she should have.  She wasn't prepared for the amount of
    pain involved, nor did she expect the amount of swelling and
    discoloration.  However, she is now able to wear a bra, she wears
    adult clothes now (size 3/4), and is still happy she had it done.
    

    I heard recently they have a new procedure for breast enlargement.
     Oddly enough, it's done at the same time as liposuction (fat-sucking)
    operations.  They simply siphon out the fat from the legs, hips,
    tummy, wherever, and inject it into the breasts.  Calcifications
    are a by-product sometimes (small, hard nodules in the breast) -
    but there is no proof that cancer rates are increased (yet).  
    
    -Jody
    

    re .51:
    
    I heard of something similar as related to a modified masectomy.
    After removing the cancerous tissue they would remove a glob of
    fat from the tummy area and rebuild the breast all in one operation.
    Physical therapy seemed to be shorted and very little emotional
    therapy was required.
    
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    

    <--(.51, .52)
    
    That's surprising to hear.  Jody, do you have any more information
    about that?  I'd always heard that it was virtually impossible to
    transplant fat to a new location because fat is *much* less tolerant of
    blood-supply interruption than muscle or dermal tissue.  Certainly t'me
    liposuction seems as though it would be the least likely source for
    transplantable fat (since it basically rips the fat loose from the
    supporting layers without regard to nerves _or_ blood vessels) but if
    they've really worked out how to do it in a reliable way, I can imagine
    a sharp increase in the number of women who'd be interested in having
    a go at larger breasts. 
    
    						=maggie

    I'll try and look the article up (wasn't my copy of "Muscle and
    Fitness")....it's interesting that this was in muscle and fitness, as
    traditionally body building was encouraging the "natural" way to
    fitness and glowing good health, now it seems that steroids and surgery
    are encouraged as options to those to desire them, also. I believe I
    remember reading in the article that the body's own liposuct-ed fat was
    not as likely to be treated as a foreign object by the body as breast
    implants were.  I'm not sure they even expected the fat to get a blood
    supply there (I don't think the body's capable of recognizing and
    reconnecting tissue that has been transplanted - unless, of course,
    it's been grafted somehow). 
    
    -Jody
    

    There is a procedure for women who have a breast(s) removed called
    the transverse flap.  It is a very complicated and expensive (over
    $5K) procedure that removes a fat flap from the abdominal area with
    the blood supply intact and tunnels it up under the chest skin to
    the breast site and is reshaped by cosmetic surgery.  It is a long
    operation 7-8 hours under sedation and is not to be taken lightly.
    You must bank your own blood before the operation.  
    As serious as this is, it is supposed to be the best (most natural)
    option for women who have lost a breast.  It is also covered for
    many women who suffer from breast cancer.
    I lost one of my breasts a few years back, and if I ever seriously
    reconsider reconstruction, this is the way I will go.
    
    Debbie, Atlanta

There's an article in The Network News, put out by the National Women's Health
Network, called The Dangers of Breast Augmentation. It's much more even-handed
than it's title (and placement) indicate. I'll type it in right after I finish
the last WITCH lecture I took notes at, and "Those Costly 'Good Old Boys'" from 
the New York Times. So, you know, if you _really_ want to see it, you should
send me a request for a Xerox copy. I mean, I _will_ get to all this stuff
someday...
	Mez