Conference turris::womannotes-v2

        I once read a study which discussed the advantages and disadvantages 
	of mixed schools. This study included facts that girls in mixed 
	schools were often hindered in fully developing their talents, both
	by the teachers as well as the presence of males.

	In many cases they were afraid or shy to speak out in a class
	containing the opposite sex, and so asked no questions to reinforce
	their lessons. It discussed the fact that mixed classes served
	as a distraction for both sexes, where relationships are brought
	into the classrooms. However, the report claims, that in general
	females from mixed schools may be found to be slightly more 
	comfortable in their interaction with males in later life. I, will
	have a look at home to see if I can find the report, it had some
	interesting points.

	Yes, I agree that our school years are a strong influence to our
	outlook on life. We spend so much time of our easy life at educational
	establishments for it not to play a strong influence on the way
	we think and behave.

	Monica

    My primary & secondary school career alternated between girls-only
    and mixed, but primarily it was girls-only -- both secular and Roman
    Catholic.
    
    I preferred the girls-only classroom environment in such subjects
    as maths & sciences where I excelled, but I was discouraged from doing
    so while in a mixed environment.  I preferred the mixed environment
    in the areas of literature, history, and other social sciences where
    the differences in viewpoint added richness.
    
    For all of the 'horror stories' about convent schools [and I _do_ have
    a few of my own! ;^) ] there is something to be said for girls being in
    an environment where women perform all tasks, thereby setting an
    example of self-reliance -- or, at the very least, can show a girl that
    a man or men are not an imperative for survival. [On the flip side, my
    cousin Michael went to an all-boys school where the brothers performed
    all tasks, thereby leaving Michael well prepared to muck out his own
    toilets and not live on popcorn & Pepsi.  It works both ways.]
    
    I went on to college in 1971, to Texas A&M Univ., where women were
    outnumbered by men 8 to 1.  Talk about culture-shock!  While I cannot
    say that gender discrimination was absent, I wasn't too bad in those
    early years, as TAMU wasn't known for liberal arts but rather for
    Engineering, Agriculture, & Sciences.  The women in these majors
    were supposed to be good at them.
    
    To this day I find that I have to work harder in my friendships
    with women than with men, although both are rewarding.  Being
    segregated didn't hinder me.
    
      Ann
    
    
    
    
    

I don't have the stats handy, but women who graduate from woman-only 
colleges are significantly more successful in professional terms than 
women who graduate from mixed colleges.  The chief reason appears to be 
one mentioned in a previous note, which is that women get to do 
everything, be in leadership positions, and participate more fully in 
class than they do when they are in mixed groups, and so get to 
experience themselves as self-reliant people capable of achievement and 
success.  

Studies of men and women in classrooms and other "conversational"
environments indicate that in spite of the myth of the talkative woman,
men speak more and dominant conversations much more than women do, even
if they are in the numerical minority.  This shuts many women out of 
real participation.  The degree to which many women tailor their speech 
and behavior so as not to "show up" men or be considered aggressive, 
bossy, strident, or unsympathetic in their presence should not be
underestimated.  These patterns of social deference are not necessarily 
conducive to a woman learning her own mind and expressing it.

>	Yes, I agree that our school years are a strong influence to our
>	outlook on life. 

In V1 I talked about some of the damage the coedness of MIT did to me, and how
it helped to live in an all-female suite. But, reading the above, I remember
that for the first time I was surrounded with people _like_me_ (dweebs :-). And
that did me a lot more good than the damage done by 'you just got in 'cause
you're a girl [sic].' I worked that one out later (as you can see).
	Mez

    I attended a girls elementary school and a girls college.  I didn't
    realize that girls were treated differently than boys until High
    School (mixed).  In many ways we were protected from that aspect
    of life.  As a result I tend to react with surprise when confronted
    with overt discrimination.  It is always unexpected and usually
    challenged.  
    
    If your daughter wants to go to an all girl school,
    she will probably have a happy and productive experience there.
    I suggested an all boy school to my boys but the thought of being in 
    an all boy school horrified them and the thought was quickly 
    dismissed._;-)  (different point of view I guess)
    
    Mary                
                                                    

    I wonder how much, if at all, the child's desire plays through the
    process.  I recall wanting very much to go to an all-boys school
    at one point in my youth and not being allowed to do so cast a
    kind of pall over grody ol' public school; for a while I performed
    in a very mediocre fashion for that best-of-all-possible kid
    reasons. . .I din't wanna.
    
    Steve
    

           
    I agree with you Steve.  I've found that if a child has some say
    in the decision making process, they tend to feel more in control and
    are apt to enthusiastically follow through.  Learning to make decisions,
    and learning to handle oneself is an important skill to acquire too.
                                                                    
    Mary

    Having taught in both female-only and co-ed situations, I have
    to come down strongly on the side of the former.
    
    In the year we changed, I watched excellent female students
    bow to mediocre male students. They were not only precieved
    as "inferior" by the co-ed class, they percieved *themselves*
    as inferior.
    
    The previous year, in a girls-only class, they were outstanding
    in performance and self-confidence.
    
    I'd say if she wants to go, let her go. The important thing is
    that she like the school - if she doesn't, you're doomed from the
    start. If she likes a girls' school, so much the better.
    
    The studies cited previously are correct, in my experience.
    
    --DE
    

    I can remember being told way back in mixed-gender public high school
    that school is supposed to prepare us for life.  Since life is made
    up of both sexes it seems to me that mixed gender schools would
    prepare one more for real life?
    
    I've never felt more confident or more comfortable when I was around
    all women as opposed to mixed gender groups.  Some women can be
    horribly intimidating and some men can be very sympathetic and
    encouraging.  
    
    Lorna
    

    I guess it depends on what parts of life one wants to prepare one's
    children for Lorna.  Do we want to prepare our girls to take a 
    back seat in life?  I'm not saying that mixed gender schools do
    that all the time, but public schools (in my opinion and experience)
    focus as much on the 'socialization' of children (for want of a
    better word) as they do on their education.  In a sexist society,
    the socialization of girls would in fact prepare them to adjust
    to (and accept) life in a sexist society.  
    
    It especially pains me to hear you, my friend, say that you don't 
    feel as confident or comfortable with women as you do with men.
    I guess because this statement reflects the very kind of bias that 
    we struggle against.  Isn't it enough that society tends to expect 
    less of us?  Must we expect less of ourselves? 
                         
    Mary

    My last  two  years  of  high  school were in an all-boy school. I
    think  it  really helped in several ways. The most obvious is that
    there  were  no  girls  around to show off for, so there was a lot
    less show-off behavior. Similarly, I think we were all better able
    to  concentrate  on  our  work  than we would have been in a co-ed
    school.  It  also  seemed  a  bit  easier  to  form  and  maintain
    friendships  than  it had been in a co-ed school, but part of that
    was  that the all-male school was a more intellectual environment,
    and I fit better there.

    The problems were minimal. In order to get girls into the theatre,
    we  had  to  attract  them  from  other  schools, so the rehearsal
    schedules  were  a  little tricky, and we leaned toward plays with
    few  female roles. It took me a day or two to get used to the idea
    of  women  in  class  when I got to college. I just wasn't used to
    hearing woman's voices in class (despite several women teachers in
    high school and that then, as now, most of my closest friends were
    female.)

    I don't think our social development suffered for it.

--David

    <--(.11)
    
    I'm with Mary, Lorna, in feeling pain that you don't feel as confident
    with women-only as with mixed groups...though I positively agree with
    you that intimidating-ness is not solely a male province.    (Fwiw,
    I'm quite sure I'm not the only one who thinks that you are one of the
    most powerfully articulate women we have in this community!) 
                       
    						=maggie

    I went to an all women college and still think it was a fantastic
    experience. At my 20th reunion one of the speakers mentioned that
    a much higher percent of women from single sex colleges go on
    to get advanced degrees or become high achievers in business.
    
    
    Bonnie

    I had an interesting experience in an all-girl high school.  Before
    my senior year, the school decided to go co-ed.  My senior class
    was the last all-girl class.
    
    There was a *very* definite change in atmosphere when the boys started
    that year (BTW, there were only 6 boys in a school of 400 girls that
    year). The girls started 'competiting' with each other for the boys'
    attention.  Also, most girls were not as open as before, and appeared
    to become very self-conscious of their actions and words, and less
    confident, as a result.  (I was thankful my class didn't alter it's
    behavior.)
    
    One negative 'side effect' -- since my parents were divorced when I was
    young, and my sister and I lived with my mother, I was *extremely* shy
    around members of the opposite sex.  It wasn't that I felt inferior,
    but I was afraid of them because they were so alien (in a matter of
    speaking) to me. 
    
    I learned real quick to get over that, though!  8-)
    
    Colleen

    re: .11, .12, .14
    
    I may be interpreting her words incorrectly but I don't hear her
    
    ". . .say[ing] that [she doesn't] feel as confident or comfortable 
    with women as. . .with men."  (from Mary's reply, .12; Maggie's
    was very similar)
    
    I read Lorna's words 

    � I've never felt more confident or more comfortable when I was around
    � all women as opposed to mixed gender groups.  
        
    to indicate that she feels equally comfortable in all-women and 
    mixed-gender groups.
    
    btw, I agree, Maggie, that ". . .she's one of the most powerfully 
    articulate women we have in this community!"  Seems to me that at
    least some of that power comes in the form of tact: we note the
    delicacy with which the youth Lorna has declined to comment on her
    comfort level in all-male groups. . .
    
    Steve
    

    As for the achievement ratio re: all-women's schools...
    
    FWIW, Joyc Kulhawik (sp?) of Evening Magazine and WBZ-TV went to
    an all-women's high school (she graduated three years ahead of me
    from the same high school - she was Tiger Lily in the drama club's
    production of Peter Pan during her senior year) and she also graduated
    from an all-women's college.
    
    My experiences from high school, especially, are some of the fondest
    and most positive memories I have from my teen years.
    
    Laura
    

    <--(.17 resp. .11)
    
    oooops, Steve you're right, I misread what Lorna wrote.  
    
    Lorna, I feel embarrassed and apologise.
    
    						=maggie

>    delicacy with which the youth Lorna has declined to comment on her
>    comfort level in all-male groups. . .

Can a woman be in an all-male group? Or did I miss something?
	Mez

    
    My daughter elected to go to an all girl college, partially do to
    some negative social experiences in high school. Part of this was
    racial, but all the same it was enough for her to decide not to
    want to be in a mixed environment. 

>>    delicacy with which the youth Lorna has declined to comment on her
>>    comfort level in all-male groups. . .
>
>Can a woman be in an all-male group? Or did I miss something?
>	Mez
    
    Perhaps the implied word 'otherwise' between the words 'in' and
    'all-male'?
    
    				Alfred

    Re .17, Steve's right.  I meant that I feel equally comfortable
    or *un-comfortable*, as the case may be :-), in mixed-gender or all
    female groups.  
    
    It's just that sometimes I get the impression that some women find
    some sort of wonderful release in being with all women, as though
    they sigh and think, "Ah, now finally, I can be myself - confident,
    agressive, a winner!"  Maybe, I expected it to magically happen
    for me and it just didn't.  Maybe it's because I'm not a competitive
    or agressive person no matter who I'm around.
    
    My daughter goes to a regular public high school.  We couldn't afford
    anything else.  I want her to succeed in life as I've mentioned
    before in notes.  She seems to be doing okay.  She got elected to
    the student council and she was manager of the track team and she
    got all A's and one B on her first report card this year.  I think
    she would *really* miss boys if she had to go to an all-girl school.
     I think she really *likes* the fact that there are boys in her
    daily life, and as long as she keeps getting on the honor roll,
    I don't mind.
    
    Lorna
    
    

       I think the most important aspect is what your daughter wants.
       (assuming money is not an issue). I did not go to an all girls
       school. It was the threat my father used everytime I did something
       he didn't like (like the semester I got a D in chemistry). I can
       still hear him..."those nuns will teach you how to act, give them
       any lip and you'll get smacked with a ruler". Given that
       expectation I imagine I'd have done terribly at St Mary's. liesl


       P.S. I can't resist, this is silly little song I still remember

       I go to an all girl school, oh pity me,
       there's not a boy in the vicinity,
       every night at 10 they lock the doors,
       I don't know what the h*ll I ever came here for,
       so when vacation time rolls around,
       I'm gonna turn this whole town upside down,
       I'm gonna smoke and drink and neck and neck and neck,
       I go to an allllllll girllllls schoolllllll
       

    Oh dear,  I misunderstood too Lorna.  My apologies.
    Don't forget to add that your daughter is as beautiful as her mother
    and is one of those girls who would probably do well in any set
    of circumstances._:-)
    
    Mary

    
    Re..0
    
    A lot depends on size and culture, when it comes to schools.  I went to
    very small elementary and high schools, and a small college, all in 
    Maine.  For the most part, in high school and college, women were
    afforded the opportunity, and sometimes the encouragement, to seek
    leadership positions.  Because of the small size, there was a relative
    closeness between the students.  The original college charter (1861, I
    think) was very explicit as to equality, both in terms of sex and race.
    
    Then I went to grad school at a larger school in Virginia - my friends
    from college would have had fits at some of the sexist nonsense that
    went on, particularly at the undergrad level.
    
    Ron
    
    ps. One of my first purchases at William and Mary was a tee-shirt
        for my wife that said "Mary and William" accompanied by the
    	appropriate symbol.  

    re: .20   :- D !!  Touch�!
    
    re: .22   Actually, Alfred, it's a case of brain not being 
    in gear before engaging fingers.  I'd try and snake out of
    this by agreeing that the "otherwise" *was* implied, but 
    unfortunately I just finished a reply that was, in essence,
    an argument for being very careful how we say things in 
    NOTES - like, paying attention to meaning, grammar, syntax, etc.
    
    Seems that poetic justice *is* sometimes served after all. . .
    
    Steve
    
    
    Then again, (re: .20), with "virtual" architecture and the soon-to-
    be-announced super-hyper-psychic-ethernet, things may be subject
    to change. . .