Conference turris::womannotes-v2

As an active feminist of more than two decades standing, I gave lots
of thought to the question of raising feminist children even before
my daughter Rosa, age 8, was born.

Fortunately, Rosa's father is also a feminist (and is now my ex, proving
that someone can be a feminist, but still be a pain in the --- :-(

The name Rose, in its various forms, is one of several family names that I
had to choose from (in an Ashkenazic Jewish family, not to give the child
the name of a deceased relative causes an incredible tzimmis [hullabaloo]).

However, I also tell my daughter that the reason she is named Rosa, rather than
Rose, is in honor of Rosa Parks, the incredibly courageous woman who sparked
off the Montgomery, Alabama bus boycott, which ended Jim Crow on those
buses, and was one of the springboards for the Civil Rights movement.

I decided that just being a feminist role model wasn't enough, based on my
observations of friends raising children, and personal experiences in my
own family.  So I decided to be proactive, but not dogmatic.  Rosa's
father behaves in a similar way.

For example, I tried to find as many non-sexist and/or feminist books,
records and tapes for Rosa.  (Once Rosa, my father, and I were riding in my
car.  I had "Free to be you and me" on the tape player.  My father: "That's
propaganda!"  Me (with happy smile on my face): "I know.  Isn't it great?"

On the other hand, when we go to the library, she can pick out any
books she liks.  When she didn't know how to read, our agreement was that
I would read her anything once.  If I felt it was too {sexist, racist,
wrong valued}, I wouldn't read it to her again, explaining why I didn't
like it, but allowing her to "read" it to herself as many times as she
liked.  Now, of course, she reads by herself as well as getting read to,
and of course she is free to read anything she likes, although I reserve my
right to comment on things!

Similarly, Rosa's dad and I have taken her to  many demonstrations (some of
them when she was in utero :-).  However, she has the choice to refuse to
go, and that's that.  She usually does want to go, if she agrees with the
issues:  she's particularly vehement on reproductive rights and the rights
of people to love whom they choose (which is how she understands gay and
lesbian rights), but even then, she wants to skip some demos. 

Of course, one of our basic child rearing approaches is to treat Rosa as an
individual deserving of respect.  As soon as she was able to talk, we would
explain decisions to her.  Sometimes she debates them, and sometimes
she wins the debate (usually, a tired parent was making an arbitrary
decision because it was easiest).  I strongly believe that this treatment
helps Rosa to respect herself, and us.

Because of my joint custody situation, I tend to take Rosa with me to
events if they happen when I've got her.  This means that she's gone to
many woman-only or woman-majority events.  This helps her see that women
are strong people in their own right, and that, believe it or not, women
generally don't spend time talking about/hating men when they're by themselves.

Am I doing a good job?  I think so, so far.  One of my proudest moments
this year came when I read her school journal (with her permission) at the
open house.  In one entry she wrote about herself, including this:

"My moms a femenst.  I gess I am to."[sic]  (Ok, so she can't spell :-)


I could write more, but I'll leave that for another time.

Bobbi "I can't believe it's a deadline" Fox

    Well, I've tried to raise one of each, and so far it seems that
    the role model aspect is much more important for a daughter while
    the social pressure seems greater on the son. 
        
    Kat, now almost 15, has seen me in action all her life; she's seen
    me go to school to get my degree, make certain sacrifices to get
    an advanced degree, get married to a wonderful egalitarian
    partner, work my way up the DEC-tree, agonize over whether to
    leave DEC to learn to write a novel and then whether to come back
    when I'd accomplished that goal, and she has been either
    supportive or critical depending on her mood and her honest views.

    She went through a phase of wanting to be a Dallas Cowboy
    cheerleader [this is what happens as soon as you think you're
    open-minded and can deal with whatever she wants to be -- radical
    lesbian sculptor, jackhammer operator, test pilot -- she'll find
    the one thing you really can't deal with].  She also told me it
    was stupid to work when I didn't have to, but as she got older and
    realized that this society runs on money and people without money
    don't have any power, she figured out on her own, without me ever
    telling her anything directly, that it's not wise to depend on
    someone else's good will for her livelihood. 
    
    Which reminds me that until we explained to her that I got paid
    for my own work and that my salary was my own and didn't HAVE to
    be spent on anything I didn't want to spend it on, though Neil and
    I had chosen to pool our money to buy a house, she *assumed* that
    Neil made all the money and later that he controlled the money I
    made just because that's the way all her friends did it.  This was
    a major shock to the system. 
    
    Steven, age 4, seems to take a lot of this for granted.  He helps
    me with the cooking; he helps Daddy with the housework. If he
    wants a toy and Daddy says no, he doesn't have any money, Steven
    will turn to me with his big blue eyes and his sad face and say,
    "Do you have any money, Mama?"  I think it's partly because his
    classmates in his preschool are predominantly kids of two-income
    families, so he assumes life is this way the same way Kat assumed
    the opposite. 

    But his everyday attitudes towards girls his own age are
    different.  He doesn't like to play with them at school because
    they don't enjoy Ghostbusters [since there's no woman on the
    Ghostbusters team, the girls have to play ghosts, and they get
    understandably tired of that...] and he's continually frustrated
    with Caroline next door because she's always worried about getting
    dirty.  It's not so much that he assumes girls are inferior as
    that they don't even seem to exist in much of his world. 
     
    I haven't tried to censor his reading material or go out of my way
    to indoctrinate either kid because I don't believe in sheilding
    them from the world they have to live in.  I think the best way to
    teach them to cope and to change the world is to be honest about
    what the world is is and what I think about it.  But I'm beginning
    to think that I need to take some active countermeasures against
    the conservative New England french-catholicism that surrounds us. 
    
    --bonnie

    p.s. "conservative New England french-catholicism" is meant
    to be descriptive, not derogatory.

This is an interesting note and I'm afraid my first reaction
was similar to Bob's.  However, after reading .1 and some 
of the other replys, I've decided that you seem to be raising
your children much as I am trying to raise mine.  That is,
I am trying to raise mine to be a "personist".

Respectfully,

Liz

    	This is a timely note for me.
    
    	I've been thinking ahead on how to deal with my mother-in-law's
    influence on my kid.  My parents will be a wonderful influence
    on my kid.  My father-in-law holds ideas that I wouldn't want
    inculcated in my child but he's also laid-back enough that I
    don't have to worry about a propaganda campaign from him.
    
    	My mother-in-law.... Well, she's a house wife has always been
    one, will always be one.  Gary and I bet that his dad never touched
    a diaper.  He never cooks or cleans.  When Alyce was in the hospital
    having Gary, Gary's grandmother cooked for him.  Now this is fine.
    If they want to live that way, that's their business.  HOWEVER,
    Alyce is very outspoken (some might say a meddler :-) ).  She does
    not hestitate to let us know that she feels that everyone should
    live some variation of their life.  Gary and I have been married
    almost 4 years now and she still doesn't quite get the fact that
    if anyone will stay home with the baby it will be Gary.  (Since I
    make half again as as much as he does, we couldn't afford to lose
    my salary.  That fact alone took them quite a while to get used
    to. :-))  Alyce has already made it clear that she prefers that we
    pick a name that is clearly male or female.  We've had discussions
    about pink and blue.  (I despise pink.  No matter what the gender
    of the kid, I want green, blue and yellow things.)  She says "But
    it's so hard to find blue clothes without little trucks on them."
    I say "So what's wrong with a little girl wearing trucks?" MIL: "Well,
    people will think she's a little boy." Me:"So?  by the time the kid
    is old enough to care what gender people think it is, it'll be
    obvious."  MIL: Big sigh and disapproving look.   (And the kid is
    still over 5 months away!) 
    
    	The good thing is that Gary and I agree on this.  (Both the
    issue in general and about his mom.)  So at least I'll have support.
                       
    	 I've been looking at birth announcements.  Out of maybe 60
    designs, I've seen 2 or 3 that don't insist on stereotyping the child
    by gender at birth.       
    
    	Oh well.
    
    tlh
    
    
    
    

    This is something I wonder about, you have no control over how
    other people talk to your child.  When my sister had her baby,
    I was amazed at some of the things people would say to him.
    There were some really good Cathy comics about this when Andrea
    was having her daughter.  Wish I had saved them.  I think Bonnie's
    idea is good, your children have to live in this world, so instead of
    trying to shield them from it, expose them to it, and be open about
    your own ideas.  I think it is important to let the child know as
    soon as they are old enough to notice differences in people that
    other people may believe differently.
    
    Everyone "brainwashes" their children.  Most of what we say contains
    value judgements.  Try to get through a whole day only stating
    "facts".
    		Linda

    Re .2, Bonnie, I like your line, "it's not wise to depend on someone
    else's good will for her livelihood."  That's exactly the way I
    think of being a housewife who doesn't work!  It also applies to
    women who make only a fraction of what their husband's make, but
    live a much better standard of living than their income alone would
    provide for them.  (I found that out after I got divorced!)  This
    is the main lesson I have tried to teach my daughter (now 14 1/2)
    also.
    
    I didn't know I was a feminist when she was little, and since *I*
    have always loved pink, frilly dresses, and dolls, she had plenty
    of them.  But, I never refused to buy her trucks or mechanical type
    toys either.  (My ex and I did agree to never buy her toy guns,
    tho, because we're both very anti-guns in the home.)
    
    But, I have always encouraged her to get good grades and so far
    she's been an A student.  I've always told her that she has to make
    sure she goes to college and gets a good paying job so that she
    can live the life style she wants, and I've told her that she should
    never depend on a man to support her.   I've always told her that
    she should get her college degree before she ever gets married or
    thinks about having a baby.  
    
    I also know what Bonnie means about how just when you think you
    could accept whatever they chose to do with their lives they can
    surprise you.  As Bonnie said, "radical Lesbian sculpter" would
    be fine with me, but recently my daughter expressed an interest
    in the Air Force!  I'm afraid I was less than enthused.  
    
    My main concern is that she go to college (because I didn't, it's
    a big thing with me), get a high paying or good paying job that
    she enjoys and can support herself with, and that she has a happy,
    well-adjusted life with friends, interests and hobbies, and eventually
    romance/or romances.  My main fear for a daughter would be for her
    to wind up an unwed mother on welfare, or a downtrodden housewife
    with a bunch of kids she can't afford and a bully for a husband!
     (What a nightmare!)  
    
    Re Tracey, I wonder, if you can dress a girl in blue outfits with
    trucks on them, does that mean that if I like pink lace dresses
    on babies, that if I had a boy I should have been able to dress
    him in pink lace dresses? :-)    If society is going to be completely
    asexual, or non-sexist, then that should mean that men who want
    to dress like women (and not just at Halloween) should be able to,
    and that people who prefer babies in pink lace should be able to
    dress any baby in little ruffly dresses.   (Somehow I still wouldn't
    want to be the first one on my block with a transvestite baby boy
    tho.)
    
    Lorna
    

    Re: Bob-
    
    I definitely believe in "brainwashing" my children, preferably before
    the rest of the world can do it.  We use subliminals that tell the
    children they are a genuius, they are good, they are creative, they
    are worthwhile, etc.  If they don't get this message at home, they
    will definitely get other, probably less favorable messages "out
    there."  
    
    Re: .4-
    
    I like the term "personist".  It implies a form of "equalist" ;).
    
    Re: .0 &.1
    
    I've tried the example with my kids.  I'm a far better mother with
    my daughters that with my sons.  I've tried, though, to teach all
    the children that the most important thing in life is to really
    communicate, and tried to live what this means.  I've encouraged
    (almost preached at times) the children to take charge of their
    own education.  I've told them that their teachers have a right
    to teach, but that they also have a right to learn.  This means
    that they have a right to ask questions and receive answers in class,
    and to make it known if they don't understand what they are being
    taught.  Whereas, the girls seem to have taken the message to heart
    and are "class leaders" in the sense they ask when others won't,
    I was very concerned about my 10 year old son.  In a recent conference,
    however, his teacher told me that he is the most responsive child
    she works with because he isn't afraid to ask questions, or to
    speak up promptly when he doesn't understand.  I was amazed!  Maybe
    it's working with Tom too...  It's really hard to tell, since he's
    a very private person at home.                             
                                                              
    Returning to my daughters, they are very outspoken about their rights,
    and stand up for others in the same capacity.  They demand equal
    rights, and consider themselves equal to any man ever born.  They
    only date males who treat them as equals and are willing to share
    the responsibilites of everyday living.  They are working on putting
    their lives in order and pursuing the dreams of a career.  They
    are practical, resonsible, and serious about their futures.  Now,
    if I could only feel as confident about my sons, I'd feel great!
    
    Barb
                                  

    I definitely think the best way to influence your
    children is by example.  When I was growing up my
    mother was a traditional housewife type.  She was
    constantly _telling_ me that I could be whatever
    I wanted to be while _showing_ me how miserable
    and resentful she was in her "housewife" role.
    
    When I was 19 my mother finally broke the pattern, 
    divorced my father, got her real estate license, and
    made $50,000 her second year in the business.  The 
    next year she became a broker/manager.  This year
    she was voted "Realtor of the Year" for the city.
    
    What these accomplishments have led to is a strong
    sense of my own power in my life.  I've learned that
    there are always choices available to me and that I
    can do whatever I want to with those choices.  This
    is what I hope to instill in my daughter.  I want
    her to recognize her personal power and be aware of
    the myriad of choices available in life.
    
    Nanci

    re: .3's comment on my remark in .2 
    
    Most of my daughter's friends and our neighbors are culturally
    French (many still speak French in the home) and attend the same
    Catholic church.  They're against government, preferring that the
    Pope run things.  They think that no one should be allowed to do
    anything that the Church disapproves of -- even if you aren't
    Catholic.  They think the father has the right to discipline other
    members of his family; abuse begins if he exceeds his authority by
    sending someone to the hospital. Daughters don't go to college but
    sons go to the best private schools available. Moving more than
    two or three hours drive away from your parents is showing
    disrespect to your family.  
    
    "Conservative French catholic" was the best shorthand I could
    think of to describe this set of beliefs, which are not universal
    to all our neighbors but are pretty common.  I don't agree with
    many of these beliefs and behaviors and don't want my son to
    absorb too many of them -- hence the wish to counteract their
    influence.  But disagreeing with those beliefs does not mean
    I'm being derogatory about the people who share those beliefs.
        
    Example:  at a sleepover at our house a while back, Kat's friends
    were discussing boyfriends and sex, as teenagers will.  And one of
    the girls said, "I don't know what I'd do if I got pregnant.  If I
    have an abortion, I go to hell.  If my mother found out, she'd
    kill me.  And if I kill myself, I go to hell."  
    
    I'd like to raise my kids so that they believe their mother and
    their God will help them out in time of trouble, not compound the
    difficulty. 
    
    re: .8  
    
    True, first and foremost we are human beings -- no argument about
    that.  But I'm not sure I agree with the conclusion that if
    they're good human beings, they can't help but be a good male or a
    good female, as the case may be. 
    
    Being a woman is not the same thing as being a man.  Obviously in
    this society the differences are beaten into you from before
    you're born, as anyone picking out birth announcements or looking
    at wallpaper for the nursery will find out.  [A paint store clerk
    told us that cheery yellow was not a sufficiently gender-neutral
    color; a boy wouldn't "feel comfortable" in it...]  But even in a
    fully equal society, with both men and women equally valued, with
    all the differences ignored and everything done the same by both
    genders -- the women would still have the wombs and the men would
    still have the penises. 
    
    The older I get the less certain I am that ignoring gender
    differences is the way to go, either.  True that a womb or a penis
    is not a requirement for very many jobs, but on the other hand
    ignoring their existence seems to be denying a fundamental part of
    our makeup rather than enhancing our full humanity. 
    
    I am not the same as a man.  I wouldn't want to be.  
    
    --bonnie 

    RE. -1
    
    Something I forgot to mention was that there is a great
    book out for young children (both male and female) which
    tries to break down some of the gender lines regarding
    career choices.  It's called _He Bear, She Bear_ and
    is by the Berensteins (the Berenstein Bears).  Emily
    (my daughter, age 4) loves this book.
    
    Nanci

    re .11:
    
    > [A paint store clerk told us that cheery yellow was not a
    > sufficiently gender-neutral color; a boy wouldn't "feel comfortable" 
    > in it...] 
    
    Here I go again on one of my usual trivia tangents. In
    _Practical_Homeowner_ magazine last month there was an article about
    designing kids rooms and play spaces. In discussing colors, they
    said "avoid at all costs yellow, even in very light pastels, yellow
    will make babies cry more often and older children more argumentative."
    And right after I had just finished painting my 3 yr. old's room
    a relatively bright yellow (Arlene picked it, not me). But, he doesn't
    seem to be any more argumentative than usual.
    
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    

    Re .14, raising children is an important job but, unfortunately,
    it doesn't pay very well - so women who don't want to depend on
    the benevolence of the child's father or the wellfare system are
    beginning to consider the importance of having other means of support
    - such as themselves with a good job.
    
    As far as a lot of feminists having been divorced, isn't that as
    much of a generalization as what you're accusing Bonnie of with
    the French Catholics?  Anyway, in answer, there's nothing like an
    experience with an abusive male to wake a woman up to being a feminist!
    
    Lorna
    

    WHAT?  Probably for the same reasons that women who DON'T
    claim to be feminists get divorced!
                        
    -Tracy (who, BTW, is a married-never-divorced feminist)
                        

    Re: .14
    
    Bob, I think you're reading some things into our notes that aren't
    there.  Perhaps your view of feminists is coloring your
    interpretation of some of my words.
    
    What did I say that makes you think that I don't find raising my
    children rewarding?  Becuase I talk about the difficulties of
    raising children and of having my values in conflict with the
    values of the people around me, do you think that has to mean I
    look down on them and don't value my children?  Do you think it's
    unfair of me to not want my son to grow up thinking it's all right
    to hit his wife and kids? Do you think that if it was a choice
    between my kids or my job, I'd be here? 
    
    I don't believe it's a choice.  I don't believe you have to be a
    housewife in order to raise children.  I believe that it's
    possible to raise children in a different way than our mothers
    did.  I believe in this society it's irresponsible not to teach
    your daughters to support themselves -- like Lorna, one of my
    nightmares is that my daughter will be too poor to leave an
    abusive husband.  I believe that daughters should be raised to be
    as responsible as sons are, and that sons should be raised to be
    as tender and gentle as daughters are.  I believe that good
    daycare is a valuable supplement to parental care -- not a
    substitute for it, but a good experience of a different kind --
    just as good dance lessons or day camp or school is a valuable
    supplement. 
    
    The goal of parenting is to raise the next generation -- to raise
    happy, fully functioning adults who know how to look at the facts
    and their own values and make a decision they can live with based
    on that information.  Confident, whole adults with the courage to
    stand up for what they believe in even if the whole neighborhood
    or the whole world believes something else.  
    
    If that's brainwashing, then I guess I'm guilty of brainwashing
    my kids.
    
    --bonnie
    
    p.s. I've never been divorced.  I suspect the reason so many
    feminists have been divorced is twofold:
    
    1.  So many women of all ages, sizes, backgrounds, and beliefs in
        this society have been divorced; at least some of those women
        must be feminists. 

    2.  There's nothing like being left with the kids, a drastically
        reduced income, and no marketable skills to turn a woman into
        a feminist real fast even if she wasn't one before.

    The underlying assumption is that "your man" COULD leave or COULD
    decide not to be "benevolent."  And guess what?  It happens very
    frequently.  That's not to say, BTW, that men are more inclined
    to take off or to stop being benevolent than women; it's just that
    traditionally, most men don't count on someone else for their
    livelihood.  Therefore a breakup of a marriage, for example (of which
    there is a _50_ percent chance), does not leave him unable to feed
    and clothe himself and his children.
                                    
    -Tracy
    

    Bob,
    
    I think your initial reaction was to my use of the
    term "housewife" in describing my mother's situation
    when I was growing up.  I didn't use the term in a 
    derogatory way.  It was the situation that I described
    in that way.  I believe I indicated that my mother was
    miserable and resentful in that particular role.  I
    realize that for some people the "housewife" role
    would bring great happiness and satisfaction.  However
    back in the mid to late 50's a woman in my mother's
    generation had very little choice in the role dictated
    to her by society.  Therefore if she didn't like that 
    role, more ofter than not, she stayed in it just because
    there was no other acceptable place to go.
    
    Nanci

    
    Well, I am neither married, nor a parent, so maybe I should keep
    quiet.  I am however, a feminist, and was once a child, so perhaps
    I can make a few relevant comments.
    First, my mother, and father I might add, both raised me to
    believe I could be anything I wanted to be.  I could be a doctor
    or lawyer, or engineer :-).  But they made it clear that to do
    any of those things I had to have  college degree, be ambitious
    enough to try many new things, and believe in myself!  
    I think that is what is being said here.  Today one can't raise
    boys or girls to be 'meek mild rely-on-someone-else' people
    cuz all too often there is no one else.  I guess mathematically
    one could say that folks have a 50/50 chance of getting married,
    and then a 50/50 chance of staying married, which I think works
    out to only a 25 % chance of getting and staying married...or a
    75 % chance of HAVING to support yourself.  
    Now, if I did get married, and have kids, and the hubby made
    tons of money....I doubt that I would work (full time anyway)
    as I love to travel, volunteer, shop, etc...
    BUT its RARE that hubby makes tons of money...it takes two
    salaries just to get by.  Let alone save for college, save
    for vacations, etc, etc.
    So, I think the commentary here, is one must raise children
    to be self-sufficient confident folks...both male and female.
    
    Does that help clarify anything?
    
    deb
    

    Bob, Your questions are good ones and have been talked about to
    some extent elsewhere (Jody?)... If you'd like to continue discussing
    them, maybe you could go to one of those notes or start a new basenote.
    In the meantime, perhaps we could return to Bobbi's original questions:
    how does one go about raising feminist children?
    
    Liz

    re: .18

    Bob, in trying to answer your question about day care as a
    supplement to parenting, I wound up with a long-winded treatise
    about social and economic trends and some of the reasons why
    having one spouse at home full time is becoming less and less an
    option for many people.  I hope you'll bear with me . . . 
    
    The post-war generation was something of an anomaly in that it was
    one of the few times when the birth mother was expected to care
    for a house and children with no help from anyone. In-home hired
    help -- formerly called "servants" -- and extended families were
    the rule, not the exception, and entrusting children to an older
    sibling, an aunt, uncle, or cousin, or a nanny for major parts of
    the day was routine.  So was having someone around to scrub
    floors, or do the cooking and marketing, or to come around once a
    week to take care of the yard. 
    
    But life has changed.  I suppose most of us had noticed.  Now a
    "married couple" is expected to meet all of each other's emotional
    and physical needs, be everything to their children, and still
    stay in love.  We're supposed to give our children a better life
    than we had, or at least a chance for it, even if that means both
    of us working. We're supposed to pursue our own goals and be
    personally fulfilled and rewarded. We're supposed to always be
    there emotionally for our children, attend PTO meetings and
    teachers' conferences, root for them at little league games,
    chauffeur them to dance lessons, bake chocolate chip cookies for
    them and make homemade Christmas ornaments with them, teach them
    about sex, monitor their homework, and still be friends with them.
    We're supposed to stay fit and attractive, dress well, take care
    of ourselves, and be gourmet cooks on the side.  [Health food
    only, please.]  Oh, and did I mention the spotless house? And the
    comments you get when you hire a plumber to fix your dripping
    faucets?  After all, it takes *only* half an hour to do it
    yourself... 
    
    And all this in a day of only 24 hours.

    It's not surprising that the isolated nuclear family often doesn't
    have enough support to hold together under this kind of stress.
    Having one parent stay at home and take care of household things
    while the other one takes care of the economic side of things is
    one way of reducing the stress, but depending on the people
    involved it can wind up increasing the stress as the person at
    home is further cut off from the social support and contact that
    functions as a sanity check if nothing else, while the person who
    is out in the world copes with the pressure of knowing that if
    s/he fails, the family may go hungry and not have a place to live. 
    
    But that traditional model is not the only way of reducing the
    excess stress on the family unit.  One can also try to reduce the
    stress by delegating work to other people -- the kind of work that
    used to be delegated to members of the extended family.  We don't
    have extended families any more, but we can often hire people to
    do lots of our work for us -- clean the house, watch the kids, do
    the laundry.  You can even get someone to drive the kids to dance
    lessons or do your shopping for you.  The disadvantage to this
    solution is that very few people earn enough on one salary to pay
    for this kind of help.  Hence, two salaries. 
    
    There are a couple of interesting side effects.  One is that in
    many households, the woman is expected to bring in money in
    addition to being responsible for her traditional stores; a UNH
    study conducted in 1985[?] found that though those women felt
    overworked and pressed into a superwoman role, they showed fewer
    signs of stress than nonworking mothers and rated higher on
    self-confidence and happiness than nonworking mothers.  

    The other is that the more equal the two jobs are, the more the
    economic stress on the earning partner is reduced, because the
    family unit is no longer dependent on one person's success or
    failure.   I was away from work for part of last year while we
    lived on Neil's income, and the difference in stress was
    instantaneous and very noticeable. [I'd say measurable, but I'm
    not sure what units one measures stress in!] 
    
    So our general situation is that by my being able to hold down a
    good job and our considering different options, we can each work
    less hard and still bring in more money.  We can hire help or
    divide the household tasks and running around among all members of
    the family, according to their ability, thus further reducing
    general stress.  And because we're less stressed, it's more
    enjoyable to spend time as a family. 

    One of those tasks that can be delegated is the routine aspect of
    child care.  Playing with kids is wonderful.  There's nothing more
    fun than baking chocolate chip cookies with your four-year-old
    son, unless maybe it's falling down in the snow with him or going
    to your teenage daughter's first rock concert with her.  But
    there's the "My tractor is stuck in the toybox" "Where's my lunch"
    category of child care that is not very exciting, and that's the
    part that day care relieves a parent of.  The nice people at day
    care get to pick up the toys at the end of the day while Steven
    and Mama and Daddy go home and play balloon-catch in the living
    room or stop at McDonald's for a nutritious meal.
        
    Note that this lengthy description only deals with families that
    are still traditional to the extent of having two parents in the
    families.  That doesn't even deal with trying to raise kids in the
    kind of single-parent situation Lorna and some of the others are
    coping with. 

    --bonnie

�     instantaneous and very noticeable. [I'd say measurable, but I'm
�     not sure what units one measures stress in!] 

    Agons.
    
    						=maggie

    RE: .25
    
    I'm sorry. I don't mean to interrupt the discussion here, but I
    can't resist this stuff.
    
    SO Maggie, is the Agon-scale open-ended, like the RIchter? OR is
    there a definable way of telling how stressed-out you are?
    
    Gawd! THis has been a 1000 Agon day!
    
    --DE
    

    No, Dawn, the Laumer Scale maybe, but not the Tarbet scale.
    
    Far's I know, it's open-ended.  If I remember correctly, 32 agons
    are about what a slightly-ill-fitting pair of shoes generates.

    Let me guess.  100 agons equals 1 agony.
    
    --bonnie

    re: .23
    
    parenthood and two-career families and working and homemaking and
    incomes and such like can be found in 
    
    Womannotes-V1
    
    65 - He works / she works
    96 - A career doesn't have to be outside the home
    101 - when a spouse returns to work
    559 - DEC and working mothers
    
    Womannotes-V2
    
    195 - Working women's unworkable world

    RE: .15
    
    I'd like to wholeheartedly agree with Bonnie's assertion that raising
    children using day-care is not necessarily a bad thing.  (I think that
    you probably have to shop very long and carefully for good day-care,
    though). I had a good friend at my last job who is now running her own
    little computing consulting service.  Both she and her husband have
    always worked.  They've raised two daughters using day-care when they
    were you, who currently, at ages 5 and 9, appear to be very bright,
    well-adjusted and personable people.  Neither she or her husband feel
    any guilt about they way they've been raising their kids and I don't
    think that they should.  They spend plenty of time with them after work
    and on the weekends.  I don't think that other adults (day-care workers
    or whatever), can have nearly the impact on children that their parents
    can, especially if their parents are caring and attentive.
    
    Eventually (by age 7) your kids are in "day-care" anyway -- whatever
    elementary school system you chose to send them to.  What does it
    matter if you start it a little earlier?
     
    								-- Mikey

    Well, I'm the other Bonnie and I have also a bit to add about
    day care versis home care. My oldest son was in day care from
    about age 2. He is currently in his second year at Wesleyan
    University in Conn. He is a sensitive socially aware young man
    of whom his father and I are very proud. His next younger brother
    was also in day care part time or full time from the time we adopted
    him at age 3 mos. He is now a junior in high school and is also
    doing very well academically. He is also very involved in many
    extra curricular activities and is a leader in our church youth
    group.  My next two children (skipping our challenged son here,
    who we adopted at age 7) were also adopted as infants, but were
    not in day care as much because we moved to a farm and I chose to
    be home more. My two younger kids, my daughters are far less
    academically oriented, and far more oriented towards doing things
    with friends. They both did not have the day care preschool 
    experiences that their brothers had (infact the youngest who
    has had the most problem with ineracting with peers instead of
    studying had the most time of all the kids interacting with me).
    Yet I was a very involved mother, I played games, read, took trips,
    did tea parties, taught how to tell time, baked bread, rasied
    chickens and goats, and basically did the whole involved mother
    child routine and enjoyed it. But it is those two kids who are
    not academic and who find socializing to be the major point of 
    school. (and yes I am well aware that genetic and family order
    differences also play a role)
    
    Bonnie

    Could we please get back to the more specific topic of how to raise
    feminist children? Anyone who wants to discuss more general topics
    about childraising is welcome to start a new note.
    
    Thanks
    liz, comod

Like the base-noter, we are trying to bring up non-sexist children
by example.  Basically having the children see their parents sharing in
the responsibilities of the household and childcare will hopefully go a
long way towards their own values.

I have 3 children - ages 7, 4 and 1 - my husband and I are lucky enough
to be able to both work part-time and be at home part-time.  When I am
here 3 days, he is at home with the children, and when he is at work, I
am home.  (We both agree that coming to work is our "day off"!).

Our children are still pretty young and we are still a major influence
in their lives.  But as they branch out into the real world, peers and
teachers and the media start having more of an influence on them.
One aspect of my life that I am VERY happy with is the church I belong to.
It is a Unitarian Universalist congregation.  This religion goes out of its
way to be non-sexist - from the songs we sing, to the subjects we discuss,
to the way work is handled in the congregation.  At this point in my
children's lives, I am happy to have them see other role models with 
similar values.  And in the future, if/when they decide to reject what
mom has told them (that will never happen!) - I am hoping that they will
turn to these other adult role models and also their peers from their
youth groups.  The teenagers I have come to know, I think are real 
"together" kids, and it seems that the values I am trying to instill in
my children have become accepted by these teenagers.

Debess

I think that I have raised two feminist children to (near) adulthood.

My son is Pro-choice with out my badgering - he decided for himself and
this is after attending a Fundalmentalist Christian school for almost
2 years.  My daughter dragged me to the Pro-choice rally in Boston last
month - she also attended the FC school.  Both of my children were asked
to leave that school, they both questioned the "authority" of the school
leaders.  That is how I raised them - this means they also question my
authority but as long as I have the check book that supports them through
college I have "special" authority.

When I my son was born I was not a "feminist" I was a humanist.  I really
believe that by help everyone women would be included. Ha!  Two years
later when my daughter was born I was still a humanist but questioning
the definition.  I have always worked, as did my mother and my mother's
mother and her mother and so on.  Day Care - that's  when someone takes
care of children, be they the mother, father, sister, brother, aunt,
uncle, cousin, friend, neighbor or "certified" day care worker.  What
is the hoopla about "day care" unless you were very lucky prior to the
1950s your mother was not your primary care giver but she was one of many.
Mother care is a middle class concept - being rich enough to own a home
but not rich enough to have a live in nanny.  Even today most people
in the United States are not middle class (no I do not have the stats).

BTW - When my kids were pre-teens they both read Rita May Brown's book
Ruby Fruit Jungle (did I get the title right?) and we had many discussions
about ideas that were presented in that book.  My daughter still re-reads
it every couple years.

_peggy

		(-)
		 |

			My son is 20 - 2nd year of college
			My daughter is 18 - doing it the hard way
				night school and working full-time
			Vicki and Amanda are just visiting for now
				They too may become feminists.

			Brainwashing is good for the soul. 

    
    > Brainwashing is good for the soul.
    
    Heh heh... wait till I tell Boris !

    um. Bob, most womannoters have no idea who Boris is, I am
    one of the few who confesses to the vice of reading soapbox.
    Would you mind explaining?
    
    thanks
    
    Bonnie

    re .37  What grade is your daughter in now?  Do you have access
            to her school textbooks?

    RE: .37
    
    I'd be interested to know what other "situations" parents have
    encountered in raising feminist children, how they handled them,
    and if they observed any raised consciousness(ess?) as a result.
    
    If folks think it's apropos here...
    
    --DE
    

    Yesterday, the infamous PJ, told me that when she was shopping with
    her dad on one of their visits, he asked her what she wanted in
    the toy department. she said she wanted one of those race car tracks
    and cars that do flips etc.  she said her dad got this shocked
    expression on his face and told her those where for boys only. 
    she said she "explained" to dad, that he was living in the dark
    ages and there wasn't any such thing as boy or girl only toys. she
    told him he was a sexist and needed to think about it. 
    
    yup, sure do love that kid....

    vivian

    re: .40
    
    Which is just one of the many reasons why I love my father so much,
    he never said things like that to me.  In fact, he bought me my
    first baseball glove, bat and ball, my first football, a train set
    and a race car set.  He was also the one that started me golfing
    at the age of 11 and was actually quite proud when I could beat
    him, and most other adults (men & women) on the golf course.
    
    Sure wish all kids got this kind of encouragment.
    

    re: .42
    
    Mine too.  He taught me how to take care of my own car (he's
    a mechanic and a good one), use and take care of a chain saw
    and a rifle, stack wood so it won't fall and nail sheetrock
    to the wall so the nails won't pop out, how to drive a car
    and pop a clutch, how to argue until all hours of the night
    and care about the world around me.  
    
    And he never, never told me there was anything I couldn't do.

    --bonnie
    
    p.s. but to be fair, it was my grandfather who taught me to
    throw the knuckle curve!

    Re .43, well, at least my father taught me "to argue until all hours
    of the night and care about the world around me"!  But, he never
    taught me to stack wood or work on cars.  (Somehow I'm both relieved
    and sorry, all at once!)  I am a victim of a sexist upbringing!
    
    Lorna
    

    
    When my daughter was about 6 yrs old, she wanted a tool set like
    her brothers so that she could build "things". I was in the process
    of explaining that it would have to wait for the next gift giving
    occasion such as her birthday, when my then SO very firmly told
    me to "stop giving in to her demands, that I had her believing that
    she could grow up and be anything she wanted to be, and that was
    unrealistic". Well my now 25 year old daughter is a farmer, thats
    what she wanted to be, and she just repaired our barn and fencing
    by herself. She tore out the old floor and replaced it, dug several
    fence posts, by hand, and has enjoyed it. Last year she got her
    long requested chain saw for Christmas.  My son got his request
    also, a whistling tea kettle.  
    
    

    I've been pondering this in a *very* abstract way (kids?  me?  bleah).
    One good first step might be raising any child with the expectation
    that he/she will be a self-supporting adult.  In other words, the
    natural order is for an individual to be self-supporting; it would
    be unnatural to have to rely on someone else for basic necessities
    (in the material sense).

    re: .44
    
    Lorna, I'd say both your mother and your father did a pretty
    good job on you.
    
    --bonnie

Bobbi,

Great question!

In the spirit of 'think globally, act locally' I belive adults
should consciously make an effort to include women in 
explanations and reflections about the world.

If the family conversation turns to ... 

  Great painters, include O'Keefe.
  1920's Paris, include Stein
  Great comics, include Moms Mabley
  Vietnam, include Linda VanDevanter

There are umpty ump reasons that cause Americans, by default,
to cite mostly or only males when talking about the world.
The world view this 'minor' speech habit gives to a child 
is wrong.  Debilitating. A 'reality' that isn't.

Case in point: 
In 1954 a schoolmate told me distainfully that girls had 
it easy because men got killed in wars while women stayed
home safe.  Less than a *decade* after WWII. Three idiots:
he said it, I believed it, and the teacher let it stand.

This default speech habit hides the past and disables children.
It can be hard to be proud or even accepting of being female 
-- much less a feminist -- if your world view omits women.

Currently, very public people make a conscious effort to include 
women when they are speaking publicly.  But it is important that 
private people do this too, around the dinner table, in the
library, .... 
                  Meigs         

	[moved by moderator]
    
================================================================================
BARTLE::CARWILE                                      28 lines  30-DEC-1988 15:48
                    -< By their fruits you shall know them >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Entered for a womannoter without an account of her own:
    
    Regarding sexist toys:
    
    Being a rabid feminist in the early '70s when my children were born,
    I was determined to rear non-sexist citizens for the coming
    generation.  Thus my daughter received BOTH dolls and trucks,
    and played with neither.  My son also received BOTH dolls and trucks,
    and played only with the trucks.  Considering this experiment
    in molding the minds of the new generation a failure, I nevertheless
    continued to train them through example/discussion/family roles,
    etc.
    
    Then, when he was 11, my son surprised me by buying, with his
    own money, a male Cabbage Patch doll, which he proudly carried
    to school for show and tell (while I feared the worst about the
    ribbing he would receive).  I never knew what happened at shool,
    but he continued to play with the doll at home and to nurture it
    in a heartwarming way.
    
    Today my daughter is preparing for a career as a bio-chemist, still
    unmoved by either dolls or trucks.  My son, at 14, has put his doll
    away, but loves babies and young children and babysits regularly.
    
    And I'm proud that the training they received when they were young
    has borne fruit, even though it initially appeared to have failed.
    
    
================================================================================
SSDEVO::YOUNGER "Never dream with a cynic"            6 lines  30-DEC-1988 15:54
                                  -< Curious >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Re .295
    
    What did your daughter play with if she didn't like the dolls nor
    the trucks?
    
    Elizabeth

    
================================================================================
BARTLE::CARWILE                                       2 lines  30-DEC-1988 16:08
                         -< girl=woman-in-the-making >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Mostly she read (alas, the traditional "girls" books, until recently)
    or drew/colored/painted.

    I apologise if this topic has been covered elsewhere, I am also
    not sure if this is the proper conference to bring this up in. 
    There is a "parenting" conference which I will try if I don't get
    any responses or people feel I am misplaced.  Anyway....
    
    My wife is pregnant and as we have two sons already, we feel we
    may have a daughter this time.  I like to think of myself as being
    as non-chauvenistic as possible, this is difficult as I had a "normal"
    upbringing and am surrounded by all the sexist world (advertising,
    TV etc.).  We try and treat our two sons (the oldest is three next
    Tuesday) as asexually as possible ie they have toy cookers, prams,
    dolls, fluffy toys as well as trains, cars, lorries etc.  We check
    their books for "daft" things without being too paranoid about it.
    Most children's books are OK nowadays but the odd lemon still slips
    through.
    
    Now for the BIG dilemma.....
    
    If We have a daughter, how do we bring her up?  All our relations
    will buy fluffy pink dresses and dolls for her and expect us to
    dress her in certain ways and with certain lengths and styles of
    hair.  I feel that this is the tip of the sexism iceberg and starts
    a girl on the long path of subservitude to society's intent of sex
    segregation fostered on 99.999999999999999999999999999999999% of
    us.  Now, if our daughter, when she is old enough to decide, wants
    to run a brothel/test-fly jet-fighters/be a house-wife etc. it will
    be her life and all we hope to be able to say to ourselves is that 
    we gave her a good, unbiased upbringing.  So, what is YOUR advice, 
    please tell me as we are unsure of even where to begin.
    
    Nick.
    

    Ask your relatives to send yellow dresses, or lavendar.  Tell them
    you hate pink, or you want her to have variety in her wardrobe.
     Don't forget to get her some overalls for playing in.  Keep her
    hair the way it's comfortable for her (children should never wear
    curlers, or have to worry about how their hair looks all the time).
    If they all buy dolls - even out the odds by buying tonka trucks
    and especially those terrific non-sexist toys like lego's, lincoln
    logs, and tinkertoys.  My parents got me a set of multiplication
    flashcards - and a set of reptile flashcards.  Boy did I get to
    know those reptiles!  
    
    Others may bring her feminine clothing and toys - if you want to
    give her the freedom to choose, provide other options for her. 
    Better yet - read bedtime stories to her when she's old enough to
    understand - stories with strong female characters AND strong male
    characters.  Let her help you fix things around the house if she
    wants - and let her help cook and clean too.  Let her choose - that's
    the key....
    
    -Jody
    

Whenever I buy something for a a boy child, I ask myself "Would I buy this for
Caitlyn or Sara". And, conversely, I ask myself "Would I buy this for Tim or
Jim?" when I buy something for a girl child. It's shocking how often I answer
'no' to myself, without a particular reason like "I know Tim really likes
Smurfs, but no one else does.". There's still a long way to go.
	Mez

    Re: .50
    
    Nothing wrong with a little girl having some traditional "girl stuff." 
    If that's all she has, things are pretty unbalanced.  So let your
    relatives supply the girl stuff and you supply the other options. 
    Since she'd be growing up with two brothers fairly close to her in age,
    chances are she'd be very familiar with "boy stuff" by osmosis, if
    nothing else.

to .50:

Just a warning, from personal experience: sometimes trying to balance for
society's sexism can overcompensate.  My parents did what .53 suggested...
let relatives and other people provide "girl toys", and my parents provide
"boy toys" and "neutral toys".  Looking back, I feel my parents pushed me
to be "non-traditional, non-feminine, etc", in an effort to compensate, and
now I find I feel guilty when I find myself in traditional female roles.
I felt guilty for not being an engineer, like I know my Mom wanted me to
be!  Neither of my parents woul ever even suggest that I had let them down
if I became a housewife, or even traditional female job like nurse, teacher,
whatever, but somewhere inside I would feel that I had failed their
expectations.

I don't know how to avoid this, but just thought I would warn you to watch
out for this overcompensation.

Good luck on the difficult task of bringing up right-minded children in
a wrong-minded world!

D!

 We have both pretty dresses for Kacie as well as outfits like she wore
yesterday (white shirt w/ red stripes and red osh kosh overalls that my
wife found in the boys' section). She looks adorable in either type of
outfit- my unbiased opinion .;^)

 The Doctah

    26 years ago when my daughter was born, I used to sit and dream
    of dressing my little girl in pretty dresses, lots of ruffels and
    frills, patent leather shoes and the whole bit.  She lasted about
    10 minutes dressed like that. I got smart and dressed her in her
    brothers hand me downs, and she is still wearing them, or at least
    she did until he moved out. Don't get me wrong, she does dress in
    dresses and skirts, but she is most comfortable in jeans and pants.
    For the most part I don't think that a lot of womens fashions are
    very practical. I just don't feel comfortable feeding the horses
    in a dress and panty hose, or changing the oil in my car, or mowing
    the grass.  Men don't have this problem, they just change the fabric
    when they change tasks. except maybe for the neck tie.