Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    In my family [3 males, 4 females], I definitely see the women
    as survivors and the men still wallowing.  My three sisters
    and myself have all encountered various abuses in our lives.
    We are all very strong and always seem to turn bad situations
    in our lives into workable ones.
    
    My brothers on the other hand, are trying very hard to maintain.
    Each of them has difficulty keeping a job or holding on to a
    relationship, etc.   In our case, I see it as a male/female
    issue.  
    
    My brothers were brought up in the same abusive household as
    my sisters and I, and they have not ever gotten a good grip
    on life.  Their role model was my father (the abuser).  Our
    role model was my mom, putting up with all this and still managing
    to keep things somewhat together.  We learned our 'survivalist'
    attitude from her.  She is a tough woman and so are her daughters.
    
    I see this more and more, but then again its also what I look for.
    
    Dorothy
    

    I too have "been there," so have my children.  As stated in other
    notes, we spent a number of years being battered and abused, both
    physically and emotionally, but, amazingly enough, most of us feel
    that we've learned some valuable "lessons" from our early experiences.
    The general agreement is that we've learned compassion, empathy,
    and how to communicate effectively.  We've also learned how to be
    assertive and stand up for our rights because of the abuse.  I guess
    it's the positive outcome of a negative situation at work.  Personally,
    I have never felt better about myself or my life.  I've grown instead
    of crumbling, so it's strengthened me in many ways.
    
    In Survivalhood-
    Barb

    To those of you that have been through "abuses" of any sort, you
    are the "true" survivors....and credit is due to all of you!  
    I am thankful that although I've gone through some tough times 
    (divorce, etc.) within my family, I have never had to consider 
    myself a survivor of abuse.
    
    I do think (and this takes NOTHING away from the "true" survivors)
    that we are all survivors....primarily due to the fact that the 
    alternative stinks..
    
    As far as I'm concerned, as long as I've done all I can, all the
    time, and still smile through the toughest of times, I'm
    a survivor!  And proud of it!!  I truely hope that you all feel
    the same way!
    
    Jill

It seems that there is so much negativity and tension in our notes conference
right now, that I, for one, need to hear more stories about women survivors.
They inspire me to "carry on!"  Here is my contribution:


When Isabelle was old enough to go to school in Tennesee, the Civil War began
and there were no schools for five years.  Her father was killed in battle when
she was 11, and she and four sisters went to live with an uncle in
Kentucky.  At 13 she became a hired girl, working for board and room for
herself and a younger sister.  When she married at 17 she had been to school
less than two terms but could read, write, and spell.

Isabelle bore 12 children in 28 years and worked under pioneer conditions
cooking, washing, cleaning, carding, spinning, dyeing, weaving, knitting,
sewing, preserving food.  But she never lost the craving for learning, the love
of reading, and the determiniation that her children would be educated.

Eventually she sold the farm -- I don't know what had happened to her husband
by this time -- and moved to Berea, Ky., where there was a college that would
educate her children and give them work to help pay their expenses.  Isabelle
sold handwoman blankets to the college to help pay her children's tuition.

Two of her sons had died and another was in poor health; four daughters were
married.  But one son and one daughter graduated from Berea College and another
son from Colorado College.

Isabelle was my great-grandmother and a survivor.  I know this story only
because her children established an Educational Endowment Fund in her memory
and I happened to find some of the college's promotional literature.

    The label "survivor" hits a very sore spot with me.  I resent being
    labeled a survivor myself, just because I lived through some terrible
    stuff.  And I really am tired of hearing whining people call themselves
    survivors, just because they lived through the same crap everybody
    who is alive has lived through.  Please note, I am NOT saying that
    everyone who calls herself a survivor is a whiner (however, lately I
    have encountered a lot of them).  And PLEASE note I am not pointing 
    fingers at anyone on this conference -- I don't know any of you. 
    I'm merely sharing my reaction to the term "survivor," and my
    experiences in the world.  And, by the way, I am very glad to have
    this outlet.  This has been a sore spot with me for some time.
    
    I see no virtue in merely surviving.  Anybody can survive.  What is
    important is really LIVING.  I firmly believe in dealing with issues,
    not ignoring them.  But to see people who have suffered shit spend the 
    rest of their lives wallowing in it and proudly waving the banner 
    SURVIVOR and living in the glory of their past victimization -- it makes 
    me very angry and very sad.  Having lived through traumatic times
    myself, I've found that just acknowledging the pain isn't enough to
    make it go away.  And glorifying it doesn't make it go away.  I don't
    have a magic formula that WILL make it go away, I just know that
    looking back at it all the time instead of moving ahead will NOT
    work.  
    
    Please, don't call me a survivor.
    

>   Please, don't call me a survivor.

 Being a survivor seems to imply barely making it along. Prevailing seems to
mean accepting the challenges of life and *overcoming them.* Seems alot more
positive that merely surviving.

 The Doctah

    I think, as usually used...or at least originally...it means/meant "I'm
    tougher than you are, world!  There's nothing you can do that will make
    me give up.".  
    
    Seems at least somewhat positive, t'me.
    
    							=maggie

    In terms of sexual abuse survivors, it was a real improvement on the
    previous word:  sexual abuse victims.  

    Re .6, I'm not sure what you mean by "Anybody can survive."  It
    might be interesting if it were possible to get the reactions, to
    that statement, of a lot of dead people, who died young due to suicide 
    or abuse.
    
    Lorna
     

	Thank you Lorna.

	_peggy

		(-)
		 |
			Not everyone can make it through "all the crap"
			and even the ones that remain alive may not 
			be whole.     

    The term as I've encountered it is being applied to everybody that's
    lived through anything, whether they make it through whole or not.
    My point, I repeat, is that just surviving isn't enough, in my book.
    I want to LIVE, whole and happy, and look ahead, and I wish that
    for others too.  
    
    Regarding the alternative, I happen to believe, due to personal 
    experience, that it isn't that bad.  My experience, however, doesn't
    constitute proof for anyone else, nor should it, and that is a topic
    for another conference anway.  But given the belief system of our
    culture (death is so horrendous we can't even talk about it or look
    at it), choosing to live with the pain one knows rather than hurl
    oneself into the apparently vast terrifying chasm of death doesn't 
    seem to me all that courageous.  It just seems like the reasonable
    choice given the options allowed by the belief system, and indeed 
    it is the choice most people make.  So again I say, why proudly wave 
    the banner of "survivor" and glorify one's victimization?  If one
    chooses life, why not get on with living?  The question of those who 
    were not given a choice is another matter entirely, and this conference 
    doesn't seem to be the place to discuss that issue.
    

>So again I say, why proudly wave 
>    the banner of "survivor" and glorify one's victimization?
    
    While it is necessary to go on living, it also is necessary to
    acknowledge the trauma. "Waving the banner of survivor" may actually
    be the source of strength some need to go on living. I do not advocate
    hiding behind survivorship to avoid getting on with one's life; I also do 
    not advocate ignoring it.
    
    The Doctah

    For some people, just surviving is an incredible achievement.
    Recognizing that fact is a part of getting one's self-respect back
    (acknowledging oneself as a strong person, not a victim).  Perhaps
    it is tiring/annoying to listen to other people's pain, and one
    might wish that they would go away and stop talking about it.
    The pain doesn't go away by supressing it, but by giving it the
    attention it needs until it naturally subsides on its own.  IMHO
    	Linda

I think the term "survivor" is very appropriate for women, because (1) it
acknowledges women's oppression (as opposed to denying it), and (2) it
implies the possibility of triumphing over that oppression (as opposed to
giving up automatically and remaining stuck as victim). To me the term
is honest and empowering. 

   The following entry is being entered for a member of the community
   who wishes to remain anonymous. If you wish to write to the author
   directly send mail to me including the note number of this note.

   Bonnie J
   =wn= comod

   ----------------------------------------------------------------



		I am a male survivor. There is no difference

    I assure you that survival is not easy.

    I assure you that the only thing that keeps me alive is the love I have for
    my wife and children.
    The pain my suicide would give to my wife and children would be too much.

    Most of the time I would love to end the pain I am in all of the time.
    And I am one of the *lucky* ones, I have had an elaborate support system to
    fall back most of my adult life.

    So I keep slogging through and keep slogging through and keep slogging
    through, and *some* day life will be worth living again. 

    sign me a middle aged male *survivor* who was last abused 37 years ago


    p.s.

    My mother started beating me in ways several enought to require hospital
    attention before I was 1 year old. My mothers 'lover' orally abused me
    before I was one year old. Those memories aren't clear, the rest are!

    6-9: the sexual tool of several teen age boys, including weekly
    episodes in church. (masturbation, fellatio). My first memory of these
    boys is of being used for anal intercourse by them in my living room. 

    9-11: sex (fellatio, masturbation)for money, cigarettes, and candy from a
    male storekeeper.

    11-15: at least weekly occurrences of masturbation and fellatio with a
    middle-aged man.
          
    Sex (masturbation) many times -some at knife point- with an older bully in
    the neighborhood. 
    
    I remember washing my mother's back in the bathtub when I was a young teen,
    I also remember that my mother didn't wear any underwear and frequently
    held her legs in such a way that her crotch was visible. 

    I would agree with .13, .14 and .15.  Some of the strongest and more
    couragious people I have met do not have visible wounds to testify
    as to just how difficult it has been for them to survive.  I, myself,
    see the term as empowering.  Also it has been my experience that the
    people that I know who are survivors now have a greater capacity for
    compassion.

 I disagree with the sentiments expressed by (my interpretation of) reply .15.

 GEMVAX::KOTTLER seems to be implying that the term 'survivor' can be applied 
to all women, because it "acknowledges women's oppression" .  To me, this
usage devalues the word and indirectly devalues the experiences of women 
(and men) who have survived something extraordinary (abuse, rape, death of a
loved one, whatever).  Somehow, claiming survivor status just for having lived
on the planet as a women seems a little exaggerated. (Disclaimer: I am not a 
woman, nor have I been one). 
  
 I have a similar negative reaction to a suggestion elsewhere in the conference 
that a 'stolen kiss' might be considered as rape.  

				Nigel

    re .18 -
    
    Any woman alive in our society today has indeed survived something
    extraordinary. But I'll admit there are degrees of oppression/abuse. 
    Can you suggest a better word?

    re .16
    
    That was very brave of you to post that, anonymous or not.
    
    I would think that you would indeed be a survivor, all definitions
    aside.  
    
    ---kim

    re:  .16

    For you and for any other male survivor of incest and other sexual
    child abuse:

    		VICTIMS NO LONGER BY MIKE LEW  
    		(men recovering from incest and other sexual
    		 child abuse)
    		pub. 11/89 - hardcover   1990 -softcover updated



    		Mike Lew, M.Ed.
    		The Next Step Counseling
    		10 Langley Road - Suite 200
    		Newton Centre, MA 02159

    		(617)  332-6601
    	
    		

    
    re .19
    
    I am a woman, I am alive and I LIVE in todays society which I don't
    find extraordinary.  Sure, I have had some bad experiences, experienced
    sorrow etc etc.  But haven't most PEOPLE?  Yes, there are those who
    have suffered abuse and have really had to fight to SURVIVE, let alone
    live.  I am not a survivor, I am a person.  I don't want to be called a
    survivor and I can understand that others (even though they may have
    suffered abuse) may feel the same way.  It is a very personal thing.
    
    Suggestions for another word:  woman, man,  PEOPLE.