Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    Ooops, I forgot what might be the key part -- when I do convince
    myself to spend something on myself, I go overboard, binge on
    clothes and extras for the house, and then have to spend a several
    months putting the budget back together.  That convinces me more
    than ever I have to be careful, careful, careful because it's easy
    to fall back into shortages and I can't afford to be wasteful. And
    then when I do want something for myself . . . you get the idea. 
    
    --bonnie

    I'm the same way, Bonnie, though I'm making inroads. 
    
    I think that when a person grows up markedly poor or markedly rich, a
    certain mindset develops that takes long-term, focussed effort to
    overcome.  I still have to remind myself that it's okay, I can even buy
    real butter now, and that it's not sinful to leave food on my plate if
    I'm finished being hungry for the moment.  The legacy of a childhood
    where the money _always_ ran out before the month did. 
    
    But I am positively getting better.  I'd wanted a good sound system
    for...jeez, forever, twenty years anyhow.  Four years ago I finally
    grasped that hey, I can afford it now. So did I rush right out and buy
    it?  Well, no, but I did actually go out, shop carefully, and get a
    modest set of components that I reckon to add to as time goes on.
    Spending the money gave me heart flutters, but I did it and I've not
    regretted it one moment.   And yet I still have to remind myself about
    the butter. 
                           
    Weird.  
    						=maggie

    	Here's something even *wierder* ...
    
    	In my family, we had enough money when I was growing up (and
   	I earned BUNCHES of money on my own from babysitting from the
    	time I was 12 years old up until I had jobs after school.)
    	The only years that I didn't have tons of my own money was while
    	I was in boarding school.
    
    	HOWEVER, I went on to spend so many years in abject poverty
    	after I became a single Mother (struggling to keep Ryan and
   	I alive while I was going through college) that to this day
    	I have the mentality of a person who is still poor (even
    	though I'm not.)
    
    	We do buy things now, but the one (most obvious) sign of our
    	former poverty is the way we set up our house.
    
    	When we were poor, we always lived in one room (and it functioned
    	as an "all purpose/do everything" room.)  Now we have LOTS of
    	rooms -- living room, family room, and 4 bedrooms for the two
    	of us  -- but almost each room is set up as though it is the
    	only room we have.  (We have duplicates of things, and hide-
    	a-beds, etc.)  Almost every room in our house could function
    	as a total living space, in other words.
    
    	We just haven't been able to adapt to the idea that different
    	rooms are for different purposes.  :-)  (Now *that's* wierd!)

    Now that I have "enough" money, I seldom spend it on "myself", per
    se.  I will spend a bit on hobbies (health club membership, dance
    lessons, etc), but nothing really on me.  I have absolutely NO trouble
    spending it on other people, though (I like to see them smile).
    
    After so many years of having steady SO's, it is second nature to
    me to be much more giving to others than to myself....and it's a
    hard habit to break.  
    
    -Jody
    

    re: .5
    
    Do you think we spend less on ourselves than we do on others
    because we think we're worth less than the others? 
    
    I found this was the case for myself with clothes -- I wasn't
    worth the effort of finding something that fit and looks good (and
    it is a nuisance, no doubt about that) or the cost of paying for
    good-quality clothing. 
    
    Money is so loaded with issues of morality in our society. It's as
    if by withholding it from myself I'm punishing myself for having
    earned it. . . as if having it was immoral.
    
    --bonnie

    Congratulations to those women who have financial independence!
    
    There's a book called "Financial Saavy for Singles", although it
    applies to anyone who wants to tame a budget.  It was published
    about 5 years ago, perhaps it's been updated since, but the basic
    advice is still sound.  I found it very easy to read...not at all
    dry and scholarly!  There are even chapters on managing your finances
    if you're living with someone, divorced, etc., etc.
    
    Now that you're able, why don't you add a "mad money" item to your
    budget...that way, you can plan on saving $xx and using it for whatever
    you need...or want, without feeling guilting about dipping into
    the primary funds.  And if you don't spend it, there will be all
    the more to play with as it accumulates!
    
    Why don't you talk with an investment counselor for advice?  There
    are CPA's and there are brokers...depends on how dis-interested
    you want the party!
    
    Enjoy your success!
    Judi_who's_still_trying_to_get_there...
    

    I didn't grow up poor, but now I make more money than my
    mother (haven't caught up to Dad, though!) and with my SO's
    salary we have a nice income.  Sometimes I feel guilty...I
    feel like I have so many nice things, and there are so *many*
    people in the world who don't...

    We set up a budget, some for groceries, utilities, all the
    boring stuff, as well as consciously setting up categories in
    the budget for what some would call luxuries:  books, eating
    out, redecorating the living room, etc.  Some categories,
    such as books, we mostly spend in a given month what we
    budget; other categories, like furniture, are quasi-savings,
    since it may take a year or more to save up for whatever we
    want.

    We also each have an allowance, the same amount for each of
    us, that we can basically spend however we want (although our
    car expenses come out of our allowances rather than being
    joint).  This means that I can at least spend money on
    clothes or whatever without worrying about whether I'm
    affecting our family fortunes.  I can also save money that
    belongs to *me*, not us, and I've done it sometimes, early in
    our relationship when I needed a little more feeling of
    independence or security or something.

    We also budget a certain amount of money to go to charity, to
    help salve our consciences. Sometimes it even works.

    -- LInda

    re: .7, .8
    
    That's not quite what I was talking about.  
    
    The point is, I HAVE my "mad money" in the budget, and the budget
    is in good shape most of the time.  And I CAN'T SPEND IT ON
    MYSELF. A couple of weeks ago I spent two weeks' of my personal
    money in one store. I bought a Halloween toy for my 4-year-old, a
    piece of jewelry for my daughter, and my husband's favorite
    champagne for supper. For myself?  A $2.50 pack of stationery. 

    --bonnie

    RE: .9
    
    So, Bonnie, what *do* you do for yourself?
    
    (Let me know if you think the answer is interesting)
    

    This is something I have been thinking about...
    
    My daughter lives with me and earns more than I do (not much so
    we are peers in that respect).  
    
    I kept saying that we needed new cushions for the window seat. 
    I watched the Bradlee ads, looked around but nothing really suited
    me.  
    
    Several months ago she came home with some nice cushions...they
    were beautiful and I loved them...  I asked her how much they cost
    and as I picked myself up off the floor...
    
    I realized that it never occurred (Ann, how do you use SPELL when
    you are in notes?) to me that I *could* spend that much if I *chose*
    to.  
    
    It is a hard transistion from being poor to having some money to
    spend.  We have the ability to make better decisions...sometimes
    staying with the habits of our poverty and other times deciding to
    opt for better quality or durability.                          
    
    

    re: .10
    
    Well, I'm not having much luck with it, which is why I started
    this note. 

    I made myself spend an amount equal to my daughter's fall school
    shopping budget on my own fall and winter wardrobe. I even made
    myself go out and spend the time and effort it took to get good
    clothes that fit and look good.  And boy, was that a pain! Two
    unpleasant weekends going to clothing stores with my daughter and
    trying on a lot of stuff that was poor quality, poor fit, etc.
    until I found stuff that looked good on me -- and it's mostly
    *pink*, gasp, choke, I gave up pink when I was 10 . . .
    
    Taking my daughter along was the only thing that made it work. She
    has a good eye for what looks good on other people, and she's not
    afraid to say "No, that's terrible, put it back." I feel so guilty
    after having made the clerk go to all the trouble of handing me
    one of those plastic tabs with the number on it so I can use the
    fitting room -- almost like having picked it off the rack
    obligates me to buy it. 
    
    So now I have a nice new wardrobe that is making me feel bad about
    spending all that money.  I want to go out on one of those binges
    I mentioned and buy stuff for everbody else to compensate for
    having the audacity to spend all this money on myself.  

    --bonnie

    Well, Bonnie  -it's obvious! You don't *deserve* to spend money
    on yourself! You're a piece of (%* , lower than pond scum, lower
    even than Whale Doo, which is on the bottom of the ocean! For
    you to think that you should spend money on your*self* is totally
    audacious, and certainly oversteps the bounds of good taste and
    brains. Who the H*ll do you think you *are* anyway?
    
    
    So does it sound ridiculous when someone *else* says it?
    
    Start by telling Bonnie she's worth it. When she believes it, your
    bank balance with respond accordingly.
    
    (Just a suggestion)
    
    --DE
    

    Sorry, Bonnie, I did miss your point a little bit.  I have no
    trouble spending on myself; it's rather *too* easy, in fact. 

    Are you saying that you are able (intellectually?) to set
    aside money that's for spending on whatever things *you* want
    for *you*, but when it comes down to the crunch you are
    unable (gut reaction?) to spend the money on yourself?

    I hope this doesn't sound like platitudes...but if you're
    *happy* spending the money on other people, is it a problem?

    -- Linda

    Re .12
    
    Sorry I mis-read the basenote, Bonnie.  Methinks money is a touchy
    subject, especially for those who grew up with financial constraints.
    Look at who you are today and what your needs are...if you need
    to update your wardrobe, then DO IT (and thank goodness you daughter
    has a discerning eye!).  As long as you can afford it, why _not_
    get used to treating yourself well?  Yes, comparison shop for the
    best price, to avoid throwing money away, but treat yourself well.
    
    As for the wardrobe, would a book on color suitability and wardrobe
    planning help?  That way, you could plan what you need, and also
    avoid marathon shopping trips.
    
    Judi
    

    This note rings a bell, 'specially since I just reluctantly bought a
    new car, a much more humble one than I could have done. We weren't
    exactly poor while I was growing up, but the urge to find good value
    for money is deeply ingrained. In my case, I'm sure this is much more
    significant than any consideration of whether I 'deserve' better things
    than I actually acquire. Feeling like I've overspent when treating
    myself to something fancy would be much more likely to hurt my
    self-esteem than boost it. Although it's possible to get good value
    in upmarket goods, it's harder.
    
    This seems to only apply to durable goods, and only when it's for
    myself - f'rinstance, I'm perfectly willing to splurge on food & drink
    once in a while (or more :-), to splurge on gifts, to contribute
    to charities, etc. I guess I'd still like to think that the difference
    in attitude toward spending on a gift isn't a matter of valuing
    myself less than others, but just part of the fun of giving.
    
    Chuck

    re: .13
    
    You forgot "You're selfish and self-centered -- hopeless!  How
    can anybody love you when all you ever think about is yourself?"
    
    Yes, it sounds a lot sillier when you say it.  
    
    --bonnie

Bonnie,

I recognise a lot of myself and Pat in what you say - we have had periods in
the past when we had to sell things to get through the month.  What you 
describe is not meanness and its not just being careful. 

However, what can you spend money on easily ? It sounds from what you say 
that books are something you buy for yourself - I'd try to get in touch with 
the feelings about yourself when you do spend money on yourself ? Do you ever 
give yourself permission to buy ?

Most of my men-friends are like me, we have NO problem  spending on ourselves 
- and I don't know why it is like that for us. I think we had the line in 
W-notes V1
 
- the only difference between men and boys is the price of their toys ?

I have found that when Pat and I go on holiday we can enjoy spending money on
us that way. Having decided to spend tho' we are still careful -its not
eternal ruination so go look for something, a Himalayan treck or whatever ? 

Roger

Bonnie, I know what you mean, too.  I almost ALWAYS buy the better
stuff for my husband and daughter.  I believe part of my "problem"
was that I was raised to buy things on sale and anything less than
50% off wasn't enough of a sale.  

I did grow up poor (according to Mom, though I don't remember feeling
that way) so of course buying on sale was the only way we could do it.

I'm no longer in that situation, but some of the old ideas linger.
Another thing that I'm sure is part of it for me is that for a long
time I've struggled with my weight.  So, I didn't want to buy the
"good stuff" because then I'd justify being overweight, which is 
something I didn't want to be.  So, I'd shop <your_favorite_discount_store>
and that would have the effect of "you don't deserve any better" and
it got to be a vicious cycle.

Anyway, I've taken off 30 pounds and have lately treated myself to a 
couple really "good" things.  I'd always wanted a 14K gold watch so
I bought one (yes, it was on sale!) and I found a beautiful red raw silk
dress that looks great on me so I bought it, too (also on sale...).

I do know I DESERVE IT, but it does also make me happy to buy things for
other people.  I think now I usually buy on sale because I tend to like
to change wardrobes a lot and can't see spending the huge $$ that some
stores charge.  Besides, then I don't feel guilty if I give it away after
one or 2 seasons.  (Hmmmmm, three of my favorite lined wool suits are almost 10
years old and were bought on sale for $15. each.)

So, feel good about you (easier said than done)  and remember that you
deserve to be treated well.

liz

    Bonnie,
    
    I have also found it easier to buy things for others than for myself.
     But I believe that has to do with the fact that I grew up in a
    home where material things were a demonstration of affection.  So
    if I don't give things to people...how iwll they know I care about
    them?  
    
    At this point, I'm not quite up to giving 10% of my income to charities
    of my choice (but 10% is a goal I'm working toward), but I find
    that as long as I feel that I'm making a difference in the lives
    of people who have less than me, then I feel o.k. about buying whatever
    I need or want.  BTW, I did not start giving to charities as a means
    of relieving guilt.  Supporting certain organizations is, for me,
    a form of social action.  
    
    Laura
    
    

    re: .20
    
    Yes, I agree about the giving being associated with affection --
    which is why the connection between not giving to myself and not
    caring about myself is so suddenly so sharp and painful.  I don't
    want to give any less to them, I just want to learn to treat
    myself better. 
    
    I cook for the same reason.  Since we didn't have much money, the
    only way my mother could give us something special was frequently
    by putting in a lot of extra work, which was free.  She'd make
    something special, like fresh bread or apple cobbler from the
    windfall apples, even when she was very busy trying to feed us on
    not quite enough.  So I often feel that when I make an easy meal
    that gives my family a lot of enjoyment, I've cheated somehow
    because I didn't put in enough work, meaning love.  It made sense
    for her, it was healthy and warm when she did it, but now when I
    do it, I've warped the connections somehow.
    
    --bonnie 

   Bonnie I'll trade problems any day...I have just the opposite. Not
    only do I like to spend money on others but I take great pride in
    buying nice things for myself. I live well beyond my means in doing
    this. I think it is tied in with never having any money spent on
    me as a child and being terminally broke through college. I've recently
    paid off all my plastic and am trying to live within my means but
    it is hard for me to turn away nice things that I know I deserve.
    
    Gail
 

    I wish *I* had this problem....
    
    Money isn't as tight as it used to be, though, which is maybe as much
    as I can hope for.  I'd like to have a bit more saved up so that when
    my 9-year-old car finally gets to the point where I can't keep it
    running anymore, I can replace it.  And I'd like to relegate *ALL* my
    towels to the rag bag, and replace them with new ones that do not have
    holes worn through them - not only do they not work real well as towels
    anymore, but it is embarrassing if I have guests (I try to fold the
    towels and especially the facecloths so that the holes aren't visible).
    Ditto on some of the curtains (I actually *did* replace some of them;
    they finally fell apart in the wash!).
    
    I do manage to contribute money to quite a few different charitable
    organizations (maybe more than I should since it takes away from what I
    am able to buy for myself) that I believe in.  I'd like to be able to
    give my time to work on more of them, too, but I don't have a lot of
    that, either, so I donate money (to schools, the synagogue, wildlife
    preservation, pro-choice groups, and museums).
    
    I also do manage to take photography vacations, which I love to do, as
    all of my family does.  When I was a kid, if my father was not teaching
    summer school that year, we would drive all over the country, visiting
    national parks, and staying with relatives or in cheap lodging (of
    course, gasoline was real cheap in those days; it was 18 cents a gallon
    when I was leearning to drive -- this wouldn't be a cheap vacation
    anymore).  Most of the family pictures of my relatives show them with
    cameras in front of their heads -- *especially* my father's elder brother
    (when they moved into their retirement condo, he built shelves all over
    the place to hold his hundreds and hundreds of boxes of slides - he is
    in his 80s now, but still an avid slide-taker).
    
    Gee, maybe I *do* have this problem, to some extent!  I make just about
    enough money to manage to do some of the things that are important to
    me, but not all of them.  Does that count??  At least I am better off
    than I was several years ago.
    
    /Charlotte

    I also wish I had your problem, Bonnie! :-)
    
    Money has been tight for me ever since I got divorced 3 1/2 yrs
    ago.  I have to confess that I do love to buy things for myself,
    though, and if I ever *do* have your problem it may not *be* a problem!
    
    When I was a kid we had the basics - we owned our own house, always
    had plenty of food, Xmas & birthday presents and back-to-school
    clothes, and one 2 or 3 week camping trip a year.  But, there were
    plenty of other things we didn't have.  *I* bought my first car.
     Nobody gave me a penny towards it.  I was told by the time I was
    12 that whatever I did after high school, my parents wouldn't be
    able to give me a dime - not for school, not to pay for a wedding
    or anything else.  I think the fact was that they were very poor,
    but they managed what money they had so well that we didn't really
    know how poor we were, and my mother always went without so that
    I could have a new outfit or whatever.
    
    My ex-husband and I were just getting so we had enough money, but
    not extra money as in Bonnie's case, when I decided to leave.  Since
    then I've gone from having not enough (before the house was sold
    and I paid off all my debts) to just barely enough as long as I
    have 3 roommates and no car loan!  :-(   Sometimes I go without
    necessities so that I can have a luxury or two!  Life has to be
    made to be worth living!  
    
    It's hard for me to understand how somebody cannot like to clothes
    shop especially if they have the money (Bonnie!)  I love shopping
    for clothes!
    
    But, if I suddenly, or eventually, had more than enough money there
    some areas that would give me trouble.  For example, I cannot imagine
    having a luxury car.  My idea of a "nice" car is a Chevy Nova instead
    of the Sprint that I have.  I don't think I could ever spend (at
    today's prices) more than $12K on a car and not feel awful-like
    I should have bought a cheaper car and given the difference to charity
    or something.  Also, I would have trouble spending a lot on a vacation
    as much as I would love to be able to travel.  I would love to have
    another house, but, even if I won the lottery I wouldn't buy a mansion.
     I could be very happy with something for about $200K.  So, I do
    understand.  It must be a wonderful problem to have though.
    
    Lorna
    
    P.S.  Bonnie, have fun shopping - for yourself.
    

    re .0  I recall Thoreau writing something to the effect that
    "anyone can earn money, but only one in a thousand knows how
    to *spend* it".  I've allways concentrated on *being* that
    one-in-a-thousand, and sometimes it's hard. So, I buy myself
    a "christmas present" every month. Maybe an album, maybe a
    new car. (This month it's expedition-grade long-johns :-) )
    
    Dana

    re: .24
    
    Carol, I think you're actually closest to what I see as a healthy
    relationship to one's money!  You've made your choices about what
    you see as important to you and your life -- vacations are
    important, towels are less so.  You seem to enjoy the things you
    do have and not regret the things you don't have.  I envy you that
    ability -- do you give lessons?
    
    --bonnie

    ---bonnie,

    A few tips in order to salve your conscience while shopping for 
    one's self.  Try perusing the area's TJMAXX's and MARSHALL'S for
    great savings on top brand items.  Many things can be had for 
    a LOT less money than the real stores.  In fact, I rarely buy
    from a real store!  8*)   A dream trip of mine would be to go
    from TJMAXX to TJMAXX.  I even suggested that as a contest to
    run and got a reply back from the consumer department of Zayre
    Corporation!!  

    Wonderful theraputic times can be had leisurely wandering through
    the aisles of these stores.  No one to accost you as to whether
    what you pick up and put in your basket is something you are
    ultimately going to buy.  Of course, one or two items must just
    jump out at you, grab your legs, and you might just have to drag
    them up to the register and pull out those little wonderful 
    plastic cards that automatically send you bills once a month that
    you have to write a check for and put in an envelope and put a 
    stamp on it and place it in the mailbox.  WHEW!!!!  But, we did
    get wonderful therapy from it all!!!  Didn't we?????

    justme....jacqui

    It's kind of been a strange experience -- being financially
    independent.  Sometimes I'll shop around for something, delay buying
    because I don't feel like spending so much.  Sometimes I'll shop
    for something I like, good quality, and buy what I like without
    too much concern for price.  However, I don't go shopping for things
    too often.  I don't need a lot of stuff.
    
    So, here I am, having just moved into a place with someone (major
    savings on rent) and having just gotten a raise, which means I'm
    going to have a lot more money.  What am I going to do with it all?
    
    Build up my savings.  I'd like to make sure the level in my checking
    account never dips below $1000.  Save for a townhouse of my own.
    Something *very* important to me.  Buy certificates of deposit.
    Continue spending the way I've been spending -- lots of books and
    rarely other things.  I think my purchases are driven by how important
    they are to me.  A new tape player isn't really important.  I'm
    doing fine with what I have now.  No big deal.  It's been over a
    year since I first thought of upgrading what I have and I still
    haven't gotten around to it.
    
    So that's another possible factor in your purchasing strategies:
    how important is it?  If books are awfully important to you, you
    buy them without really thinking about it.  If new clothes aren't
    really important to you, you don't bother with them.  Clothes aren't
    too important to me, so I pay much more attention to price.  I don't
    see myself paying much over $25-30 for *anything* -- including dresses.
    (I shop in Marshalls and Kimricks, so it's usually not much of a
    problem.)  Fifty bucks for a dress?  Forget it.

    
    re: .17 I have the same dilemna! I.e., In some areas I am fanatically
    careful, but then I will blow money. I will splurge five dollars
    on potato skins (come on - for 2 potatoes?) but clip the 25 cent
    off coupon to take to the supermarket. 
                                          
    I guess maybe the coupon clipping allows you to feel less guilt
    about the occasional splurges.                    
    
    Roberta
    
    P.S. Anyone know where to get micro-blinds, cheap?

    Re:  .30
    
    Roberta,
                       
    Concerning your P.S., yes I know where to get 'em cheap.
    
    Call 1-800-5-BLINDS.  That's Jayson's Window Fashions (Treatments?)
    out of Michigan.  Call 'em and ask them to send you as much
    information, brochures, samples, as possible -- they carry all
    of the major brands (DelMar, Kirsch, Levolor, Bali) and their
    prices are phenomenal!  They have a special deal where if they
    can't deliver your blinds within x-number of days, your entire
    order is free.  I know they make good on it, too.  Contact
    PARITY::(John)SZABO for the details.  We both ordered entire
    houses full of blinds at the same time.  He wound up getting
    his entirely free...
    
    can't get any cheaper than that...
    
    sorry for the tangent, everyone...
    
    donna
    

    Hello, it's me again....this note got me thinking, so I replaced all
    the "holey" towels!!  (The rag bag is now full, too.)  Right before I
    went away for Thanksgiving, I notice that Bed'n'Bath was having a sale
    for a couple of days on the kind of towels we like (and only had two
    sets of, along with all the ratty towels with holes in them, because
    they are expensive).  I didn't have time to go there to get them, but I
    was able to mailorder them (for a $2 delivery fee).  The new, non-ratty
    towels arrived home the day after we did, and still cost less than I
    was expecting to pay for them (under $400 to replace every towel in the
    house except the two sets of "new" - only 4-5 years old - ones) since
    they were on sale.  And I am still solvent, more or less, although if
    this weather keeps up this month's heating bill is going to be an
    impressive sight!
    
    /Charlotte

    
    Re: .31
    
    Thank you so much! I couldn't have done better if I'd put it in
    consumers! I love this file because everyone's so close knit and
    responsive. I was busy for a while but now am coming back to find
    a lot of notes I'd written have been responded to. Thanks to everyone.
    
    Now back to our regularly scheduled program...
    
    Roberta
    

    
    
     What is so impotant about money?
    
                                           Ray

    
    
    
           I made a typo error on the impotant. The word should be
    important.
    
                                       Ray

    re: .34
    
    What is it you're really trying to say, Ray?  The fact that you're
    replying in this conference means that you're working for money
    at DEC and therefore have some appreciation of money and that, for
    example, it's really hard to feed one's kids a plate of happiness
    for dinner.  My guess is that you're trying to say something about
    the relative value of money to peace of mind or spiritual fulfillment
    and that's o.k.  On the other hand, it hasn't much to do with the
    questions raised by the base note.
    
    Steve
    

    
    
    Is money a master or servant in your lives?
    
                                 Ray

    re .38, Ray-
    
    > Is money a master or servant in your lives?
    
    Servant.  Its a medium of exchange, a tool, useful to exchange
    what I have (time, intelligence, productive labor) for what I need 
    or desire.
    
    How about in yours?
    
    DougO
    

      
                        MONEY,MONEY,MONEY
    
    Money is servant to me. I find that for myself for giving for what I
    have cheerfully it feels great. If I keep hanging on to what I got I
    will never truly gain anything from it. Even Rockefeller himself was
    close to dying and he himself wanted to keep what he had. But once
    he gave his health got better and he also became richer on the inside
    as well on the outside.
    
    Money is the lifes support system. For money men will sell their souls,
    women their bodies, and everyone is tempted to lose their virtue. Men
    spend the majority of their time on earth thinking about money.
    
    In divorce, money and children are the greatest causes of litigation.
    Governments fall when corrupted by money's misuse. People perish from
    its lack, unable to buy food.. Families are destroyed from the stress
    both of having too much of it and no having enough of it. The haves and
    have nots still divide the world and homes. Men worship what money can
    do. Men worry with it and without it.
    
                                     Ray
    
    
    
    

    "Lack of money is the root of all evil." Anon.
    
    (The original seems to have been distorted in translation :-) )

    "Money is the root of all evil...and every woman needs roots"
    
    (seen on a pre-designed cross-stitch I made at age 11).
    
    

    It's really funny to be toobusy to read this file for a week, and then
    pop in and find a whole string of notes obviously leading up to
    someone's pet theory being expounded - you get the whole buildup and
    the punch line, all withint two minutes!
    
    Anyhow, about money.  When I didn't have much of it, it was definitely
    the master.  How to stretch what I had to make the rent payments, keep
    my old clunker running so I could get to work, and feed myself, those
    were what was important.  I didn't even own a TV, for example.  These
    days, there is enough money (not that I wouldn't be happy to get my
    dealyed raise, mind you - assuming the boss thinks I am worth one in
    the first place), I can instead spend time figuring out things like
    making a contribution to the Darwin Station in the Galapagos, or
    donating needed equipment to our synagogue, or taking vacations.
    
    Money is a lot more important when there isn't enough of it in your
    life than when there is.  But how much money that takes varies from one
    person to another.
    
    /Charlotte (running off to yet another meeting....)

    
    
.40 >Money is the lifes support system. For money men will sell their souls
.40 >women their bodies, and everyone is tempted to lose their virtue. 
    
    i would sell my body ($22), but not my soul.  my soul can only be
    bought by intangibles.
    
    i don't see what virtue has to do with money.  i mean, i have been
    tempted by other things, didn't really think money entered into
    it.  thrills and excitement, yeah, dull plain money, no.
    
.40 >Men
.40 >spend the majority of their time on earth thinking about money.
    
    not this man.  or maybe i am not a man because of that.  spend more
    time thinking about .....hmmmm.....brain is dead, let me kick it
    a bit..... okay, for starters, worrying about state of the world,
    thinking about where i can find rare Cure albums/cds/cassettes,
    science fiction/cyberpunk novels, role playing games.
    
    money is a tool to obtain some of these things, but i can also get
    most of them without, by borrowing from friends.
    
    a clean plennit, on the other hand, will take a little more than
    money.
    
    you are sounding rather bitter about money....  been hurt by it
    recently?  (or perhaps, had a close person-friend, relative- hurt
    by it recently?)