Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    Sometimes I "needed" a seduction to make me aware that the
    person was interested--sometimes it took that to make me
    think about whether I might be interested, too.  Sometimes I
    *knew* I was interested, and was pretty sure the other person
    was, long before any "seduction" occurred. 

    I've never really thought of seduction as being something men
    do to women, more as a mutual "I'm interested; are you?"
    before one person or the other asks The Question.  A way of
    reducing the risk, if you will.  I've also found that I was
    about as likely as the other person to initiate a
    "seduction," although (for whatever reason) I was usually
    somewhat less likely to ask The Question first.

    -- Linda

    re: .0
    
    � Do women need to be seduced?
    
    I dunno, but I kind of doubt it.  I, on the other hand. . .
    
    Steve
    

    Do I ever feel ignorant -- is seduction getting someone into bed
    for the first time without quite saying that's what you want to
    do, by hook or by crook?
    
    If so, what a horrible idea...

    Re .5, I would suspect that if a man isn't interested that no seduction
    will take place at all either.   In my experience, there's nobody
    more self-righteous than a man who isn't interested in being seduced
    by a particular woman.
    
    I suppose if you claim that "the woman writes the script", that's
    a good excuse to never feel responsible for what happens.  I think
    it's more realistic to assume that sometimes the man "writes the
    script" and sometimes the woman does.
    
    Lorna
    

    [partial duplicate of 253.10] 
        
    Seduction isn't persuasion so much as arousal. After a bad day at
    work and a couple of hours of getting the kids fed and bedded or
    settled down to their homework, romance is not generally the first
    thing on either of our minds.  Seduction, either one of us by the
    other or mutual, helps us relax and starts us thinking in terms of
    sexual enjoyment instead of survival.  If he asked me, "Want to go
    upstairs and fool around?"  I'd probably say "No, not tonight, I'm
    tired and it's been a rough day and I'm not really in the mood."
    If, however, we cuddle for a while, and he rubs my back a bit, and
    then nibbles my ear and says the same thing, I'll be off for the
    stairs in a flash. 

    The same general thing was true when I was dating -- I didn't need
    to be seduced in the sense of having to be persuaded I was
    interested in sex.  But in order to make love that was mutually
    satisfying, we generally both needed something seductive and
    suggestive to make the transition from the everyday troubles to
    the private intimacy of loving. 
    
    --bonnie

    
    Re .9
    
    Bonnie,
    
    I think you describe exactly the way I feel about this.  I define
    "seduction" as something that probably would have happened, anyway.
     I don't think anyone can be "seduced" unless they want to be.
    
    Some people seem to be using "seduction" when they mean "coercion",
    usually emotional rather than physical.
    
    Val

    RE" .10
    
    So, Val, how do we communicate exactly what seduction and
    coercion *are*, when they are happening, and what behaviour
    we expect? How do the lines stay clear so there are no
    misunderstandings?
    
    --DE
    

    re .13                        
    
    So who sez you have to comply? 
    
    You filter what men say as having authority, so for you
    it does.
     
    Others read it and haven't assigned any particular import
    to it. You should maybe examine where in your life you are 
    abdicating power to men.

    RE: .13, RE:.12
    
    Of course one doesn't have to comply. What *I* notice is the
    temerity, chutzpah, <dare I say> b*lls, to bang the gavel
    when the guy isn't even the judge!
    
    --DE
    

    	Lorna, 
    	
    	I realize that this is probably going to sound smart-ass no-matter
    how I say it (I don't mean it to), but I feel extremely compelled
    to say it.  There is, of course, an implied "in my opinion" at the
    beginning of each of these statments.  The day that you entered 
    into a relationship with a man like that and the day that did not break
    it off after he treated you like that are the days that you abdicated
    such power to the men in your life.  That fact that you stayed in the
    relationship tells them that yes, they *do* have the power/ability to
    say STOP and that ultimately you will comply since you did not break
    it off.  I could *never* stay in a relationship with a person who felt
    that they could unilaterally call a halt to a discussion of an issue.
    (As a matter of fact, my husband and I once cut short a vacation with
    his parents because his father did try to unilaterally cut off a
    discussion.  We felt so strongly about it that we left early and
    let them know why.) (*Asking* to postpone til we calm down, he feels 
    up to talking about it, etc, is a different story.  There are times
    when it is indeed a smart thing to do.  Heck, I've asked to postpone
    such conversations myself from time to time.) 
    
    	To those who had problem with eagle's note,
    
    	As for eagle's note, I didn't take it that way at all.  I just
    thought he was complimenting Bonnie on how well she put together
    the words to express a complex thought.  (Much better than I could
    have done it!)  I didn't at all think that he was seriously suggesting
    that we write lock this note or refrain from discussing this anymore
    because the "definitive" reply had been made.  But then again I'm
    the woman who has all "male" nonverbal cues and body-language, so
    maybe its just my bias showing...  (Or maybe it's yours?  Would
    you have reacted this way if a woman had written that note?  And just
    exactly how hard would you have stomped on a note that said "just
    like a WOMAN to feel that she can just say STOP and expect everyone
    to fall in with it"? )(I hate asking that kind of question!  Who the 
    hell knows how they WOULD have reacted to something? But I feel
    it is necessary in this case.  I think a hell of lot more was read
    into that reponse than was intended by the author with little to
    no justification.)                                    
    
    tlh
    

    Re .18, yes, you're absolutely right.
    
    I'm sorry, Eagle, I deleted the note.  
    
    Sometimes I have an awful time trying to understand other people.
    
    
    
    Lorna
    

    <--(.20)
    
    Eagle, it may be that it's just too early in the morning after an
    exciting evening...but I didn't follow one single word of that.
    
    						=maggie

    	Nope.  I don't think it's time.  I've been awake for awhile,
    and I still didn't understand it... :-)
    
    tlh                                            
    

    
    It's lunchtime, here, and I don't understand a word of it.
    
    Val

    I thought it was funny.  The tangent's tangent -- thank the
    goddess you don't teach geometry, eagle . . . 
    
    --bonnie

    An awful lotta words.
    

    Well, gee whiz, Eagle, I must've misread your note, too. I usually
    understand your notes, even when you're pulling our collective
    leg...but I missed that one altogether!
    
    Getting old, perhaps....
    
    --DE
    

    Thanks, Eag' (May I call you Eag'?) :-)
    
    SO: When *does* seduction become coercion? And when *does* coercion
    become date rape?
    
    And while we're on the subject (we are, I think) what do you define
    as seduction? Coercion? What's the difference?
    
    --DE
    

.29> what do you define as seduction? Coercion? What's the difference?

    Seduction:  when I'm feeling good, happy, having fun (about
    the possibility of sex with this person)

    Coercion:  feeling uncomfortable, uneasy, angry, frightened
    (about the possibility of sex with this person) 

    -- Linda

    	RE:  .28
    
    	Oh, I think I get it now, Eagles.
    
    	You were chewing us out in .20 for a tangent that *you*
    	started in .12 while trying to give the highest praise
    	to .9 (after seeing .10, and .11 that *agreed* with .9
    	but didn't praise it enough.)
    
    	(P.S. If anyone doesn't understand the above, it reads better
    	after a few beers.)  :-)

    

    RE .29
    
    Being seduced is being led, being coerced is being pushed.
    

    Dana

    PS...and I realize that many consider "when leading doesn't
    work, push a bit" to be a valid technique of seduction. 
    

    ans it would be nice if sdt the eagle would leave his thought provoking
    notes in the file for more than a day...so that when I log on
    or any on else logs on after a day or so away we dont' find
    a miriad of notes to eagle with no note there to reference.
    
    Bonnie

    Maybe, Mr. Thompson, if you could refrain from telling the rest of us
    how to participate in this conference, we'd get additional
    illumination.  A sensitive guy like yourself surely understands
    that he may just not have the "Universal Truth"?  And if you think
    you DO have the Univeral Truth, why can't you leave your notes in the
    conference for more than a day?
    
    This reader would, at least, prefer to not have good topics sidetracked
    by a self-appointed Arbiter Of What Is And Is Not Illuminating.
    
    				Steve

    No, women don't _need_ to be seduced, but it might be nice to
    _feel_ seduced (if lovemaking is the mutually understood goal,
    or even possibility).
    
    Paula
    

    To get  back  to the original question, seduction is fun. To quote
    an  old joke:  Why is sex like bridge? A:  The bidding is the most
    exciting part.

    Flirting is a wonderful way to relax with someone, even if both of
    you  know  that  nothing  will  come  of it. It's one of the major
    reasons I enjoy folk dancing.

    Consider seduction  of  some  one  you're already involved with as
    extending the foreplay, and it's hard to see why one would want to
    forego  it.  I  suppose,  now  that  women  don't  faint  at  such
    questions,  that one could simply say "Want to f*ck", but it seems
    crude and uninteresting.

--David

<    Consider seduction  of  some  one  you're already involved with as
<    extending the foreplay, and it's hard to see why one would want to
<    forego  it.  I  suppose,  now  that  women  don't  faint  at  such
<    questions,  that one could simply say "Want to f*ck", but it seems
<    crude and uninteresting.


       It doesn't SEEM crude and uninteresting, IT IS crude and
       uninteresting. Part of sex appeal is how we act towards members
       of the opposite sex and that includes flirting and invited
       seduction. liesl

    Re "Want to f*ck" being "crude and uninteresting", I think it would
    all depend on who said it.  If my boyfriend said it to me when I
    get home tonight I would just giggle and say, "Of course I do."
    It depends on what the current relationship of the two people is.
    
    Lorna
    

    Re: .40
    
    Not only who, but how.  An accompanying waggle of the eyebrows would
    lower the crudeness quotient (on my scale, anyway).

    Seduced?
    
    My question to new man in my life: I wasn't looking for you, I didn't
    even expect you, why are you interested now, after all this time?
    
    His response: I don't think either one of us was looking... We just
    sort of crossed paths and stumbled into one another... I'm glad
    you were there to bump into..
    
    He certainly got my attention! Previous men in my life had very
    few words to say and I find this man to be saying the words I need
    to hear.

    Seduction? Sometimes...
    
    Eduction? Always.