Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    Once there was THE PEOPLE.  Terror gave it birth.
    Once there was THE PEOPLE, and it made a Hell of Earth.
    The Earth arose and crushed it.  Listen, all you slain:
    Once there was THE PEOPLE.  It shall never be again.
    
    			Rudyard Kipling
    
    (Reproduced from memory, so the punctuation is probably wrong, and I
    think it's the end of a longer poem whose title I don't remember.)
    
    	-Neil

                                                         
    re .0
    
    Bathed in sweat...?
    
    It was a trifle long and overblown.
    
    Of course, I'm hardly a critic, let alone literate...

    I'm not a literary critic, but I know what I like and I don't like
    this poem.  Sounds like it was written by an anarchist or by someone
    like Lenin.  Don't like the call to battle tone at the end of it
    either.  Much more could be accomplished in this world with loving
    unity, not anarchy/battling.
      

    RE: .3 Loving unity is in the heart of the beholder. Maybe I read
    the poem wrong, but what came through to me was the incredible power
    of the human spirit, and how nothing can violate it. Needless to
    say, I liked the poem. For the same reason I like Ferron.

Just so there's no confusion... I'm not the WELBY::MURRAY in .4 (:-).

And for the record... As a literary piece, it's awful -- far too
blunt and obvious; lacks the depth, complexity, and imaginative use
of language I look for in good poetry.

As a political piece, it's naive and simplistic, and basically wrong
about who "the people" are and what they want. When most political
ideologues invoke "the people" ["Who do you represent?" "The American
people."], they really mean "Us people" or "People who think like me."
In fact, the poem seems to reflect a love-hate dichotomy in the speaker
toward "the people": they're of course wonderful, but he/she also seems
to want to knock their heads for not being sufficiently aware and
militant. 

So now, all you folks who like the poem can say: 

    "Chuck, you're no WELBY::MURRAY!"

    I notice that the poem considers that intellectuals aren't people. 
    
    --bonnie

    The poem was written by a person who's very much a pacifist...and
    not at all a politician...or a professional poet.  I did not make
    reference to the author, because I did not want to color people's
    interpretations (i.e., if it was written by X type of person, then
    it must mean Y....)
    
    My understanding of the piece is that it is up to _each_ of us to
    look beyond "the norm" in our lives and not accept things for their
    face value.  To take a more active role, in whatever capacity we
    can, whether we're a CEO or a blue collar worker.  Values for the
    most part today are skewed, and I often wonder _what_ people value
    now.  Is it the acquisition of material goods, or internal values?
    
    The issues are far more complex than this, and there is no one answer.
    If one is to merely exist from day to day, without taking an active
    role, then that life is a hollow one.  To work toward a full life,
    to whatever degree possible, can only benefit society as a whole.
    
    No, I am not a socialist.  I believe that it is up to each of us
    to do our part to improve our lives.  I, for one, am not content
    to just sit back and let life go by.  I've seen too many people
    bitch and moan about their jobs, etc. and not do a thing about it,
    except to bitch and moan some more.  Yes, change is a risk, but
    there's usually _some_ way out of a situation.  That is up to the
    individual to choose.
    
    I don't expect people to agree with me, but that is how I view things.
    Yes, it's a generalization, but I wanted to express my overviews,
    for what they're worth.  It's up to each of us to decide how we
    want to live our lives, and yes, there will be obstacles along the
    way which we must deal with, to whatever degree possible.  Some
    can be easily side-stepped; others must be chipped away at, bit
    by bit over a period of time.
    
    Judi
    

    Re .0, I love poetry, and I'm afraid I have to agree with those
    who think this poem is rather badly written.

    I especially dislike the lines,
    
    "People, remember
     You are the only reality;
     Without you the world is but a shadow."
    
    There was a world long before there were people, and there may be
    a world long afterwards.   People can't survive without cooperating
    with the rest of the planet.
    
    Lorna
     

    re .8
    
    Lorna, I agree that the planet will remain long after we've gone.
    
    Looking at the piece from a societal perspective, without a "healthy"
    society (open to individual definitions there), people are here
    to merely take up space and use up resources.
    
    Throughout history, there have been people who have advanced societies,
    and there have also been those who have abused their knowledge.
    Every society will go through cycles of success and struggle, and
    it is up to us as individuals to contribute to the success of the
    society, keeping in mind the elements of cause and effect.  
    
    Where do we look for role models today?  It seems that everywhere
    you look, someone's on the take.  We can no longer "follow the leader"
    with blind faith...there's no telling where s/he will lead us.
    
    We're here on the planet, and until that changes, we need to do
    what we can to improve our lot.  
    

       pity this busy monster,manunkind,

       not. Progress is a comfortable disease:
       your victim(death and life safely beyond)

       plays with the bigness of his littleness
       -electrons deify one razorblade
       into a mountainrange;lenses extend

       unwish through curving wherewhen till unwish
       returns on its unself.

			A world of made
       is not a world of born-pity poor flesh

       and trees,poor stars and stones,but never this
       fine specimen of hypermagical

       ultraomnipotence. We doctors know

       a hopeless caseif-listen:there's a hell
       of a good universe next door;let's go

						ee cummings

    I wrote this recently, and I just figured I'd enter it here - it's
    an analogy of sorts.  I welcome feedback and discussion...either
    in NOTES or MAIL.......
    				-Jody
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    	The House of Cards
	------------------

	To live in a house of cards
	One cannot rush around corners
	Or slam doors in the face of startled visitors
	Or hurl things in righteous anger.	

	The foundation is brittle
	Walls barely braced, so new this structure
	Each day I am amazed it still stands
	And I am careful not to jar the walls in passing.

	It is not the house of cards I value
	But, rather, what it represents
	It is my dream to make it more solid
	To cement the junctures with coherent caulk -

	So the ties that will bind the walls will bend
	But will not break if I should choose
	To stamp or slam or simmer silently
	It will be safe from strangers' storms.

	In this society - being a woman among men
	The cards are sometimes stacked against me....
	We build our houses alone, carefully balanced
	But only by connecting them can they stand strong.

	-jb - 1/9/88

    I find your imagery very powerful!
    Very personal until you generalize it in the last 4 lines.
    Until then I felt it represented one specific relationship, either
    a new one, or one in jeopardy.  In any case, I could really see,
    and feel the fragile cards around me!  If it is more an
    all-men/all-woman kind of thing, I'll want to mull that one over
    a bit more -- I think the imagery is still there, but it came as
    an unexpected ending!
    
    Nancy