Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    I would give a lot to be able to say the things about my mother
    that you have shared about yours, but I can't.  I don't like my
    mother, and I have founght a long, hard, uphill battle to avoid
    being the "ultimate victim" example she has been for me.  It took me
    years of tearing my mind apart to try to extricate my "victim" image,
    but I think I'm doing a lot better now.  I'm much more aware of my
    excursions into being a doormat/victim, and I "call" myself on it
    everytime it resurfaces.  It has greatly dismayed me that several
    of my children absorbed the "before" example rather than the "after"
    example, but I am pleased that the others are NOT about to assume
    that role.
    
    In my life, I am fortunate to have VERY close relationships with
    two of my daughters, and a reasonably close relationship with a
    third.  The fourth daughter is only old enough to still "love Mommy"
    with having a need to respect me, so I have hope for her also. 
    As for my youngest son, he's too interested in playing to concern
    himself with being close.  
    
    In looking at my own needs, I have tried to become the mother I always     
    hoped I would have, but haven't. I believe I've accomplished this to a 
    reasonable degree and I content myself that I am on the right track.
    What more could I ask?
    
    Barb
        
    

    I just want to say that I love my mother and I give thanks to God
    because of her.  and thanks her because she teach me how to be a
    good mother.
    

    RE: 238.0
    
    I to have had the great pleasure of enjoying my mother, She is one
    terrific lady and I give her all the world of credit for teaching
    me everything she knows.  My mother and I have a very special
    relationship, she taught me alone for a long time.  My real father
    left me when I was just 1 when they got divorsed.  And I never met
    him till I was 18 years old.  I see him every now and then NOW but
    I still resent him for leaveing, and him never wanting to see me.
    But my mother married a great guy when I was about 6 years old and
    he has been the best dad a person ever wanted he has been very
    understanding when great problems accure.  
    
    
    I think that when my real father left we developed a close bond
    that has never and will never be broken I think it was becasue we
    were alone for so long and only had each other to depend on for
    comfort.  But now we have a great family with a little brother but
    somehow my mother and I will always share something special.
     
    I think my mom was the best teacher and friend a person
    could ever have and I wouldn't trade her in for any other.
                                  

    Growing up I got along with my mother alright until I was about
    18 years old.  I left home (at 20)with the biggest argument imaginable
    (try 3 police cruisers and an ambulance!), and it wasn't until just
    last year that my mother and I reconciled (I am now 24).  That doesn't
    sound like a lot of time, but we are still working on it.
    
    I am ever so grateful for having my mom back!
    	
    K.C.

    My relationships with both my mother and my daughter have been the
    two most positive relationships of my life so far.  They are the
    two people I have been the closest to.
    
    My mother was a wonderful mother to have as a pre-school age child.
    We lived in a very rural area when I was small and often there were
    no other kids to play with.  My mother didn't work (outside the
    home) and she would spend hours reading to me, playing games with
    me, taking me for walks in the woods pointing out birds and plants,
    and she used to actually play paperdolls with me for hours on end.
     She seemed to love it.  I used to think that when I grew up I wanted
    to be that kind of mother, but by the time I grew up I found out
    that I had no interest in playing dolls or kids games, so I didn't
    live up to it!!
    
    We had some difficult times when I was in my teens and early twenties
    because she had some very old-fashioned ideas about sex, drinking,
    swearing, staying out late, etc.  She was born in 1913 and grew
    up on an apple farm so I couldn't expect her views of the world
    to be too cosmopolitan I guess.
    
    I mostly think of my mother as someone who was always there to listen
    to my problems and to hear about my life in detail.  I always told
    her everything, except anything concerning sex or drugs (which she
    wouldn't have understood).  After I was grown up I used to talk
    to her on the phone a lot.  It really did seem like a safe haven
    in a crazy world sometimes to be able to dial her number and hear
    her voice.
    
    I think that she didn't do a very good job of preparing me for having
    to support myself through life, but then she had no way of knowing
    about inflation and the divorce rate these days.  She came from
    a family where no women had ever been to college or worked outside
    the home.  But, I do think she did a good job of showing me how
    to appreciate little things that can make life worthwhile - such
    as appreciating the beauties of nature and of good books.
    
    As far as my daughter goes, I'm very happy with the way our
    relationship is going right now.  If it continues this good for
    the rest of our lives I'll be happy.  I always wanted to have a
    daughter and I'm very happy with "what I got."  She's smart, pretty,
    has a good personality, and cares about other people.  We have a
    lot in common.  We both love clothes and shopping and so far take
    the same size.  We both love going to rock concerts together, and
    we point out cute guys to each other all the time.  They're usually
    all too young for me and to old for her - which is a running joke
    we have :-)!  She's very versatile and can enjoy a day at an art
    museum as much as a day at an amusement park.  We also go to the
    movies a lot together.  I wanted her to see, "Room With A View",
    and she thought it was beautiful.  (Since she's only 14 I think
    that's encouraging.)  We also talk about all kinds of things together.
     Several months ago a friend of mine met us for dinner, and the
    next time I saw him, he said, "I was very impressed by the way you
    and daughter act together."  I asked him what he meant, and he said,
    "You don't act like most mothers and teenage daughters I see.  You
    act more like girlfriends, yet at the same time I could tell you're
    very fond of each other."  I was pleased by his observation and
    hope it continues to be true.
    
    Lorna
    
    

    I sure envy the ones that have/had great relationships with their
    mothers. Mine is a different story.....my mother was an alcoholic
    and very sickly. She also went thru the "change of life" while
    I was 22 or so (she was about 45). I can't relate all the problems
    here and now (I'm still working on some inner feelings). Is there
    anyone else who went thru similar childhood/adolecence/adulthood
    experiences with their mothers? 
    
    Oh, by the way, my mother died at age 47 while I was 25.....and
    I never really got to establish an adult-level relationship
    with her.
    
    pat

    My Mom was the quintessential nurturer - June Cleaver and Harriet
    Nelson rolled into one. She and Dad provided my sister and me with
    a home filled with love and security, but in retrospect, probably
    not a lot of intestinal fortitude for some of life's little
    adversities. When my sister was divorced after 10 years of marriage,
    my Mother went into a real depression and Dad threatened her with
    pysychiatric counseling (pretty serious stuff in the 60's) if she
    didn't snap out of it.  Guess we learned that she was a great nurturer
    but not a good "coper".
    
    So in my relationship with my daughter (age 21), I've tried to combine
    the best parts of my bringing-up with the realism that's needed
    to be a child of the 80's. Since I didn't have the option of being
    a stay-at-home Mom, I've seen both my kids develop a self-reliance
    and independence that I probably didn't have at their age.  I probably
    have wanted more in the way of a career for my daughter than she's
    wanted for herself and that's created some problems which we thankfully
    have overcome.  I also look at her and see alot of the best parts
    of my mother (they were very close and had a wonderful relationship
    until my mother's death 5 years ago).
    
    My daughter is married and living in another state now.  I'm dealing
    with feelings of knowing that I have to share her with another woman
    - she does have a Mother-in-law afterall, who gets to see her more
    often than I do.  Will she still "love me best?", will her "other
    Mother" be more talented than I? Will they shop, and laugh and share
    fun times that don't include me? Will she make comparisons, and
    how will I stack up?
    
    Will she write to a woman's forum in 20 years with the wisdom of
    a Cathy L. and think I was a pretty good role model?  I couldn't
    hope for more, if that turns out to be the case.

    I love my mother very much but I sure don;t want to be her.  And
    it took alot of hard work for me to feel ok about that.  My Mom
    has told me that she envies the relationship that my daughter and
    I have, yet, for many years I felt guilty that I wasn't the kind
    of mother that Mom was.
         
    After raising 8 kids (my only sister is 13 years younger than I)
    my Mom went to work as a Social Worker for the first time.  She
    was 51.  She had had her degree since she was 20.  It has been a
    real pleasure to watch Mom grow and gain confidence in herself and
    her abilities.  And she's a damn good social worker!
    
    Mom and I never really fought when I was younger, we jsut never
    talked.  It's only been the last 2-3 years that I've felt that she
    and I are really friends.  What a wonderful feeling!  Thank God
    I didn't miss out on it.
    

    It's just been recently that I realized the relationship I could
    have had with my mother.  She moved to Florida this past weekend
    and though I flew down with her and helped get her settled at my
    brother's, I miss her terribly.  In the past few weeks we talked
    about life for the first time and I shared some things that I was
    going through and she really helped.  Why I never did it before
    I'll never know, but I'm glad I did it now.
    
    She has instilled in me independence, she has let me be me and for
    the most part accepted that, and taught me how to stick up for myself.
    
    She's not June Cleaver or Margaret Anderson...she's just Myrtle.
    And for that I'm most thankful.
    
    P.
    

    re:.6
    
    In starting this note, I realized that not everyone responding would
    have positive reactions.  Your note reminded me of a dear friend
    of mine who had a similar relationship with her mother.  Her father
    was an abusive drug addict and mother was an alcoholic.  My friend,
    up until very recently, hated her mother for not being like all
    her friends' mothers.  She was embarassed to have friends visit
    the house because it was so dirty and she never knew what condition
    her mother would be in.  (Her father, thankfully, was not home much.)
    I have never heard such anger and resentment, although I sympathized
    tremendously.  Gwenn finally reached a point in her life after living
    hundreds of miles away from her family for several years, where
    she knew she had "grown up".  She decided to take all the negative
    feelings she had toward her mother and turn the whole mess into
    something positive she could build on.  (Easier said than done!)
    After her mother's death a year ago, and after seeing a therapist
    for twice that long, she has come to better understand her mother
    as a PERSON.  She and I have had long talks about "when you first
    discovered your mother was a human being, just like every one else".
    She learned that she had some positive experiences from her mother,
    as well as negative.  When she could accept her mother as a person,
    and understand that it was okay not to "like" her, she was able
    to let go of "tons of baggage", as she put it.
    
    I don't know if this helps you at all, but I hope it shows that
    there is nothing such as the "perfect parent".  People are people
    and so are parents and we all make big mistakes.  I read in this
    forum about a woman who suggested that you should have to take a
    class and be certified before becoming a parent....Not a bad idea!!
    I wish you the best of luck in sorting out your feelings.  
    
    Cathy L. (still visiting on REDDEN)
                                       

    
    My mother and I have a terrifice relationship. We are just like
    close girlfriends.  I can talk to her about anything.  This only
    happened a few years ago.  I can remember when I was living at home,
    I wouldn't even think of going to my mother for advice or comforting.
    I used to go to her sister.  Now things are much different and I'm
    sure glad we became good friends when we did.  
    
    Love ya mom.....
    
    Laura
    
    

    re:  .10
    
    Thanks!
    
    I felt a lot of the feelings your friend did. The hardest feelings
    I'm dealing with now is the emptiness. When my mother was alive,
    I just started working at DEC in the mailroom, was 180 lbs, VERY
    insecure and TERRIBLY shy. I have grown *so much* since then,
    and I can't share that with her. I have dropped my weight (was down
    to 113...now up about 135), have a great job in the technical space,
    became more outgoing, developed a greater self-esteem, became
    fiercely independant (both financially and personality-wise) and
    got married. I can never tell her things that adult mother/daughters
    talk about. I hated myself for not loving my mother back then....
    but like your friend, I've talked it out with other people and that
    it's ok. 
    
    Your friend is very lucky to have someone close like yourself she
    can turn to with her feelings. Thanks for sharing....
    
    pat
    with her feelings.

The following is from a member of the community who wishes to remain
    anonymous.
    
    Bonnie Reinke
    comoderator
    
    
    
	Please post this as an anonymous reply to 238.6

	Thank you.

************************************************************************


	I have a very similar `relationship' with my mother that you had
	with yours. My parents were divorced when I was about 12. My 
	father hasn't kept in touch with me. I cannot tell you when the
	last time was that I actually _told_ my mother anything of a 
	personal nature. I just can't. She has never expressed any interest
	in anything I have ever done, never praised me for anything, never
	told me she was proud of me, and I could probably count on one hand
	the number of times she has told me she loved me. (usually when
	she was going away on a trip). I am pretty much a loner, I guess she
	taught me that the only person I could rely on or trust was myself.
	I hold a lot of anger and resentment towards her, and my older 
	sister to whom she has always been close. But I have never told
	either of them how I feel because I don't want to hurt them. 

	I, too, dread bringing people to my house. I'm 22, but can't afford
	to move out right now. The house is always filthy, yet she never
	goes anywhere or does anything. She spends a lot of time watching 
	TV or sleeping on the couch. She has let her appearance slip. I
	now believe she is depressed, but how do you tell someone you can't
	talk to that she needs to go to a psychiatrist? (something I am in 
	the process of doing for myself). Every time I have tried to talk 
	to her about her actions, she blows it into an argument about something
	else, and usually starts to cry. So, I don't try anymore...

	I try to remember affection during my childhood, but there is none. 
	She never touched me, hugged me, etc...Fortunately, I am very 
	intelligent.(I'll explain). I spent all of my time reading by
	myself. Somehow I learned early that my `family' was not normal, 
	and that I had `value' that they could not see. I guess my personality
	is pretty strong, and I think that's the only reason why I'm not 
	a manic depressive or anything. I hope that someday I will be able 
	to get rid of all the anger and resentment, but I don't ever 
	expect to have a normal relationship with my mother after having
	spent my entire life feeling like an unwelcome guest in my own home.

  

    re .13 anon reply
    
    I could have written most of what .13 wrote about her mother. Except
    I don't live at home, I had to get out for my own sanity at about
    18. My mother couldn't tell you where I live...doesn't know what
    college I graduated from (if in fact she'll acknowledge I went to
    college). If she thought about it she could probably come up with
    my birthday...
    
    It's very difficult to explain such an unatural situation, a mother
    that shows no love for her child. It certainly leaves the child
    longing to have that need filled. My Dad, luckly made an attempt
    to be a good father. He is well aware of my mothers distane for
    me. But even our relationship is on a cordial basis. 
    
    Thinking about our relationship, it sounds like I am speaking of someone
    that lives far away or has a mental handicap, neither of which is
    true. To outside observeres she is a normal caring person. She is not
    an addict of any kind.  
    
    I never earned my mother disinterest/dislike it was there as long
    as I can remember. It would be easier to accept if I'd done some
    terrible thing in my life, but that is not the case. 
    
    The reason I decided to enter this was to tell those of you with
    the enviable reltionships with your parents...call them up tonight
    to tell them you appreciate them and love them. I can't call my
    mother to tell her that...it just wouldn't be true.
    
    Gail

     There is a book entitled My Mother/Myself - I forget who the
author is  - I thought it was appropriate to mention it since it
relates to the Mother/Daughter Relationship.

- Nancy

    
    
    Didn't Nancy Friday write My Mother/Myself?
    
    Deb
    
    

    Yes, Nancy Friday wrote My Mother/My Self.  It's an interesting
    book -- overstated and overly emotional in many places, but
    something most traditionally-raised women should read before they
    decide to have children of their own. 
    
    The first time I read it I nearly blew a fuse raging over how
    stupid, shortsighted, narrow-minded, and unforgiving she was
    toward her mother -- and my anger was in direct proportion to how
    close she was coming to real problems in my basically healthy
    relationship to my mother. 
    
    It's very good at coming to grips with issues like realizing one's
    mother *doesn't* love one (something that turned out not to be
    true in my case, thank God) and getting over having your mother in
    bed with you in the back of your mind. 
    
    --bonnie

My mother was a housewife.  She devoted her entire adult life to taking
care of her family and raising three children.  When I was growing up, I
thought she must lead a very dull existence.  When I got to college and was
thinking about a career, I was very thankful that I had the option of 
taking a different path.  We were close -- in fact our whole family was
always very close --  but Mother didn't have a whole lot of credibility
with me -- she was "old fashioned", didn't understand how things are today,
etc.  I never doubted her love, but as far as what she did for the family,
I took it totally for granted; didn't appreciate a lick of it. 

Now I'm all grown up and I've had a career for about 20 years.  And I look 
back on my mother, and my perception is totally and completely different.  
She was a very strong woman, stronger than I by far.  And a very giving 
person, far less selfish than I.  She loved my father more than I've ever 
known one human being to love another.  But the biggest revelation for me was 
when I realized that she led a very fulfilled life doing exactly what she 
had chosen to do, and doing it well.  Her life might have seemed dull to 
*me*, but to her it wasn't at all.

I didn't think too much about Mother's life until she lay on her death bed
with cancer.  That I regret.  But I'm happy that I did reflect on her life
before she died because it made me feel closer to her than I ever had, even
as a child.  And I was able to let her know it before I lost the chance 
forever.

							Pat