Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    I entered 229 and tried to express a feeling about being a woman...I
    think I want to make a point and I wasn't sure how to do it...what
    I think I need is either some responses...or no responses....to
    finish my thoughts...
    

    The problem I have with women glorifying motherhood (biological
    motherhood, I mean, although I know some very happy adoptive mothers,
    too) is that it seems to be too easy for people hearing these
    discussions to slip into the old biology-is-destiny arguments, and
    those arguments, I think, tend to shortchange both men and women
    by denying human diversity.  Whatever a woman (or man) finds satisfying
    and fulfilling is the right thing for her (or him).  I had a very
    interesting mail conversation a couple of days ago with an American
    man living in Great Britain who was responding to one of my responses
    in this file.  He was very nice, actually.  He basically said that
    he didn't understand why a woman would desire anything else in life
    than what his own (apparently very fulfilled and happy) wife wanted
    out of life, which was to be a wife and mother, to cook, clean,
    travel whenever she wanted to (I guess this gentleman makes more
    than I do...), and hold afternoon teas (remember, they live in
    England).  I tired to explain some of what my life is like as a
    principal engineer here in VLSI CAD, and why it is so satisfying
    to me, but I'm not sure what I typed came across as anything other
    than eccentric (oh, well, probably that is not too far from the
    truth anyhow!).  Human diversity is one of the most wonderful things
    in life.  Thinking that tries to put all of us peas into the same
    pod is limiting to human fulfillment.  Some women (and some men)
    are happiest in the nurturing role, just as some people have inborn
    musical or artistic talents, others are great speakers, and others
    are happiest doing scientific fieldwork (that is probably what I
    would be doing today, if you could make a living doing so without
    teaching, which I am not cut out for - my father was a college
    professor).  I think it's great!  It's wonderful to me that people
    are so diverse!  (What a dull world it would be if we were all human
    broodmares, and our men were all warriors...ugh!)  The people I
    feel sorriest for are those who are trapped in roles that they do
    not find fulfilling or for which they are just not well suited,
    but are stuck in because of lack of education, oppurtunity, money,
    courage, or whatever.  The real sad thing is that these people most
    often seem to be women, and the usual reason that people I know
    end up trapped this way is economics: single mothers working two
    jobs trying to provide a decent life for themselves and their children.
    
    Enough from me....
    /Charlotte
                                     

I can now understand that joy called childbirth and parenting. I didn't
before Sam was born, I thought I did though.  It is something you cannot
expect people to understand without having experienced it themselves. 

But, just as we have the desire to parent, there are those that don't have
this desire.  I don't understand _that_.  But at the same time, I don't feel
that these women should feel that they are 'missing' something.  A lot of
women/couples who decide not to have children are badgered, made to feel
guilty and less than adequate.  My sister and her husband are going through
this.  It is not a given anymore that when people get together, they will
eventually have children.  It is not considered the duty, these days, for
women to procreate.  

I'm not sure I understood exactly what you were getting at with your note.
But I think I read that you feel it would be a shame for people not to
experience the joy of parenthood; some people just don't want to.
Women/couples can choose _not_ to and should not be made to feel guilty for
it. 


Dorothy

    The role of parent is a unique experience.  It's one I
    wouldn't have missed for anything.  (In fact I'm looking
    forward to a repeat performance.)  However, I also find
    fulfillment in my work, spiritual and personal growth,
    my friends, etc.  I agree that many women are defensive
    when they hear the mother-thing lauded.  I think that's
    primarily a reaction to the societal standards of the 
    previous generation's concept of the role of women.  The
    pendulum does have to swing to the opposite extreme in
    order for balance to be achieved.  
    
    Personally - I want it ALL!  I want to feel free to express
    not only the nurturing side of me but also the creative and
    intellectual parts of me.  After all we are all multi-faceted
    personalities.  Unfortunately some feel that women, in 
    particular, should, or are capable, of expressing only part
    of who they are.  If we accept that this is true we are
    limiting our own potential.  
    
    I guess what I'm trying to say is that for me biological
    parenting is an important role.  For others it may not be.
    However, in our own individual ways we are all uncommon
    women.

    I have experienced the joy of childbirth and parenting. I have also
    experienced the *joy* of SINGLE parenting for 16 of the 17 years
    that I have been parenting (without benefit of any support that
    I could count on emotionally or financially). I have two children,
    16 1/2 & 17 1/2, my son has been depressed/suicidal since the age
    of 5. He has a chemical imbalance and I suspect some kind of allergy
    to sugar that causes behavioral changes.
    
    I can't imagine myself encouraging any woman to have children. I
    know that there are great joys in mothering. I wanted nothing more
    than to have a family and lots of kids when I was younger. But,
    I have been assaulted (resulted in hospitalization and surgery)
    by the very son that I so enjoyed nurturing, teaching, watching
    him grow, etc.  Mothering is not all joy and 'hallmark' moments.
    
    On the other hand, I will never knowingly DISCOURAGE a woman from
    wanting to have children. I'm not sorry that I had mine. My daughter
    is one of the biggest joys in my life.  I just hurt knowing that
    my son is ill and I can do so little to make his life any easier
    or more fun.
    
    Every woman must make her own decisions, based on what she wants.
    
    Ruth 

    Its hard to be a mother in our society, in our world.  
    We don't live in a warm, caring, supportive society...
    not unless you're Donald Trump that is.
    
    Every mother wants her child to have security, a home,
    good nourishing food, intellectual stimulation, and 
    the love of caring adults.  Todays children take a very
    low priority.  America is among those industrialized countries
    having a high infant death rate. More infants die in one year
    here than have victims of AIDS since it entered the country.  
    No one ever talks about that.  We try to prevent girls from
    aborting babies they know they are unable to care for and yet
    we begrudge young mothers our financial support and we look 
    down upon them for being 'welfare mothers'.  
    We pay women less then men traditionally even though most single
    parents are women.  America's 'new poor' are almost exclusively
    women and children.  To be young and poor and pregnant is to be 
    sentenced to a very difficult life. 
                            
    The greatest joy of my life has been my children.  My sons were
    always there for me. Sharing the good times and the bad times.
    Pointing out how ironically funny life really was.  Bringing 
    laughter into a cloudy day.  We laughed at my credit rating, we
    laughed when the utilities were shut off, we laughed at the 
    amazing regularity with which the car broke down,  we found ways
    to make Christmas special without very much money.  We had fun.
    
    They aren't little boys anymore. They are men now... tall and strong
    and intelligent.  My youngest graduates from High School this year
    and somehow he and his brother and a semi-official son we picked up along
    the way, will go to college.  
    
    Its been rough.  I don't know how we did it.  I have no regrets.  
    We are (as we have always been) a team.  And I know now, as I have
    always known, that my children are the single greatest accomplishment
    of my life.  My job, my house, mean nothing in the long run.  My
    family is the testament to my being.  
    
    My advice to other women?  Do what is best for you... and only you
    know what that is.  Trust your own judgement.
                                        
    Mary

    
    
    	When I was younger parenting was something special to me.  I 
    found joy in knowing that I can produce life.  I never thought
    about how much work it is.
    
    	I have three children, they are healthy and bright, but I
    spend a great deal time trying to raise them.  It's hard.  
    
    	I don't think many people, know what parenting is
    all about.  You can destroy a child with one word or
    one action.  It's serious business.
    
    	People should have choices.  They should not blamed
    if they don't want to enjoy this biological priviledge.
    If they do want to enjoy it, they should understand what it
    really means.  It isn't all roses, it has ups and it downs.
    
    	Personally, I'm glad I had my children.  I wish I was
    more prepared.  Because I do a great deal of learning
    as I am parenting.  I hope that while I'm learning, I
    don't make a mistake that any of my children will suffer
    for.
    
    	Veronica.

    
    
    Gee, I had just the opposite experience.  I never had an
    overwhelming urge to reproduce-in fact, I spent a lot of
    time and energy trying NOT to become pregnant.  We finally
    did decide that maybe a child would be ok...my 'maternal
    urges' finally hit me the first time I saw my baby.  Love
    at first sight-literally.  Today, there is nothing-absolutely
    nothing-in my life that is more important than my son.
    
    I'm thankful that I had no previous experience with children.
    In a way, I'm also thankful that my mom was such a terrible
    role model.  I have nothing to 'unlearn'-Jamey and I started
    from scratch with this 'mother/son' business.  We're learning
    together how to be a good mom and how to be a good kid.  So
    far we're doing a pretty good job, although I think I've 
    learned more from him, than he's learned from me....I know I'm
    a much better person from having this child share his life with
    me.
    
    Deb
    
    

    
    Really good points in this topic, especially Ms. Pare.
    
    My wife Lynn and I waited until we were married 12 years and were in
    our mid 30's before we tried to fulfill our biological roles.
    
    Lynn has mentioned that she had no idea just how magical it was
    and is until we did have a baby; that some things must be experienced
    to know.
    
    We both wonder what the future holds as it pertains to both
    the biological and societal roles of women and men.  

    I feel somewhat intrusive here, not being either a woman or
    a parent. But...
    
    I love children. I used to take care of my nephews when they
    were infants, and thought it was great (well, all except the
    changing diapers part :-)). I also enjoyed the couple of summers
    I spent as a YMCA summer camp counsellor working with 5-6-year-
    olds. I always expected -- and looked forward -- to getting
    married and raising some children of my own.
    
    But as the years wore on, that desire decreased until, now, I
    have absolutely no wish to have children. The reasons are many
    and varied, and alos pretty irrelevant.
    
    I have to agree that people are too often "pushed" into being
    parents. I'm constantly being asked by relatives "So when are
    you going to get *mar*ried?"  And I know that the minute I do,
    the question will change into, "So when are you going to have
    some *chil*dren?"
    
    One of my XSO's told me that her mother, in asking about me,
    wanted to know if she (the SO) thought I'd be a good husband
    and father. My SO told her that in talking about such things,
    we both decided that we didn't want to have any children. Her
    mother thought we were being selfish!
    
    I think Charlotte hit the nail on the head. The wonderful thing
    about being human is being able to *choose* what you do or don't.
    Just by virtue of the fact that you *can* be a mother doesn't
    mean that you should take advantage of what "Mother Nature
    gave you". I mean, not all tall people should want to be basket-
    ball players, right?
    
    I certainly don't mean to downplay the desire to be a mother (or
    anything else), but those who don't want to be aren't "missing"
    anything. It's human nature for people to think that anyone who
    isn't interested in a particular thing is "missing" something.
    
    What struck me about the base note was that it seemed like the
    same feeling that devout Christians have about non-Christians
    "missing" something by not accepting Jesus as their saviour.
    (nota bene: I using this purely as an example. No offense
    towards Christians is intended or should be inferred.)  I can
    understand the fulfillment, but others are just as fulfilled in
    other ways by other things.
    
    --- jerry

    As I read over some of the replies to this note I begin to understand
    some of what I am trying to say.
    
    I am not trying to convince anyone to be a parent...it is by no
    means a religious experience.
    
    My concern is that parenting has some real bad press...and if you
    look at it logically these negatives make good sense.
    
    There is a need to discuss the positive aspect of parenting...this
    magic which happens...after birth...to fathers as well as mothers.
    
    I believe that in our (women's) struggle for equality we have lost
    sight of some of the positive aspects of being a woman.  It is almost
    as if we don't want anything that reminds us of the oppression we
    endured for years.
    
    To me there wasn't anything wrong with the basic plan of men and
    women and their biological roles...it was the value system that
    developed around the responsibilities..
    
    

    Yes, a woman who hasn't experienced childbirth and motherhood is
    missing something. 
    
    But then I'm missing something by never having learned to
    hang-glide and from deciding not to take art lessons because I
    don't have the time and love to devote to it.  If I had chosen to
    devote my life to art, or to writing, or to my career, I would
    have had a far different life. 
    
    Not necessarily less rewarding, mind you, though the rewards of
    motherhood are great.  But different, with different hurts and
    different rewards. 
    
    --bonnie

    I know what it feels like to hear my biological clock ticking. I'd
    give anything to have a child.  The only child I ever had (so far)
    were my 2 neices and 1 nephew.  I've always loved children even
    when I was a child myself.  Now I've gotten older (not old)and the
    feeling seems stronger as the months go by.  I often get scared
    thinking that I may never have children.  I've fallen deeply in
    love with a wondreful man.  He's a great father(he already has 1
    child)but he can't be another father;he has a vasectomy.  For some
    reason he can't understand why I want a baby so badly;although he
    said he'd never trade in his child for anything in the world. Not
    being able to have a child if I stay with him is devestating but
    leaving him would also be awful.  I can just imagine how wonderful
    the feeling is when you just gave birth to a beautiful baby.He said
    it was wonderful even though he didn't 'give birth'.