Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    Re: Jim,
    
    Yes, when appropriate -- but they seem to refer to any female as
    a girl, whether she's 15 or 20 or whatever.  I'm not sure I've
    ever heard a young male referred to as a boy.  It just sounds
    jarring to me to hear them talk about the women's team with
    references to "this girl" and "that girl."  (This includes women
    commentators as well as men, by the way; both genders do this.)
    
    Not to start another tangent-off-a-tangent, but I remember it
    also sounded jarring to me to hear little boys referred to as
    "men" by the coaches of various sports teams my son was on.  I
    mean, these kids could barely pick up the bat and swing it, and
    they were called men, and yet no matter how old the members of
    a female team are, there seems to be a tendency to call us "girls."
    
    I just wish the pro sports announcers -- male and female --
    would make an effort to make the distinctions.  And I also wish
    they'd concentrate on talent instead of on looks/bods!
    

    re .1
    
    
    I have noticed this about the commentator's coverage as well.  I
    winced when I saw them put their arms around her shoulder.  Their
    coverage of women's events has been below tolerating points at
    times- noticing female athletes' physical characteristics more then their 
    athletic ability.
    
    Does anyone know if Women's field hockey will be on?  I know two
    players and I'd really like to see some coverage for this sport-
    I've seen more of boxing then any women's sporting event (granted
    watching Korean boxing managers beat up referees is a story- but
    enough is enough!).
    
    Terri
                                   

    Re: .2
    
    I don't know when you've been watching, but I've seen LOTS of
    women's events - gymnastics, swimming, volleyball, basketball,
    track and field, marathons.  My impression is that the coverage
    itself is gender-neutral, though it is highly biased towards
    events with US competitors (and the coverage tends to concentrate
    on the US atheletes, even when other countries are winning).
    
    I think the women's marathon coverage was very well done.
    
    I even saw a bit of women's tae-kwon-do!
    
    				Steve

    	We were watching some qualifying rounds for women's swimming
    	last night, and even my *son* cringed when he heard one of the
    	male commentator's refer to a two-time Gold Medal winner (and
    	holder of the WORLD RECORD in her event) as a "Little Lady."
    
    	It may have been an affectionate term to use, but it came off
    	to both of us like a verbal pat on her little head.  (Argh!)
    
    	I mean, honestly -- doesn't a World Class Athlete (who has already
    	won multiple Gold Medals and is the current holder of the World
    	Record in the event under discussion) deserve something better
    	than that????
    

    For those interested in letting their network know how they feel
    I have an address here for the NBC network office:
    
    Network - NBC
    30 Rockefeller Plaza
    New York City, New York  10112
    
    
    
    

    re: Mary Lou Retton
    
    NBC has gone a long way to get Mary Lou trained for these telecasts.
    She's been working with experts for months in preparation. Not smiling
    so wide, controlling her squeaky voice when excited, poise, on camera
    appearance and slowing her speech.
    
    The first night she was on, she went out of control the minute she
    was given an opportunity to speak. She grinned from ear to ear,
    got winded and squeaky and was talking at 1250 wpm. When they
    came back from the commericial, it was apparent that Bart Conner
    and Dick Enberg had been instructed to shut her down. 
    
    TV is a cut throat business and Mary Lou is not considered and never
    was considered a top shelf gymnast by her peers or coaches. You
    have to remember that the eastern bloc countries were not in LA
    in '84 and that her Gold Medal is somewhat tarnished because of
    the lack of competition. Conner reconizes that she has the weaknesses
    that she has to overcome in broadcasting and he's going for the
    throat. He's looking to make a living doing broadcasting and so
    far he's been very successful in cutting her out. Fair no, but that's
    life in showbiz. If Conner tried the same stuff on Gayle Garner
    she eat his lunch and kick sand in his face to boot. 
    
    The crime here is that Gayle Gardner is not doing any front line
    announcing of events. She is one of the best (either sex) announcers
    in television and radio. My wife and I immediately took a liking
    to her style when ESPN hired her years ago. She should be doing
    T & F and/or swimming (men and/or women).
                  
    Ken

    	Libby is enjoying the Olympic broadcast - though she finds the
    sexism annoying.  I watched one hour of the Olympic broadcast and
    timed the commercials - less than 45 minutes of the hour were devoted
    to the Olympics and of the 45 minutes I estimate 15 minutes were
    wasted with chit chat between talking heads (chit chat suggests
    talking which adds nothing to the athletic events).
    
    	I telephoned WBZ and complained about the wasted time and the
    sexist comments.  I was thanked for my opinions!
           
    	The Olympic broadcasts will continue without this viewer.
    Douglas

    I'm not sure if I was offended or not but I did notice last night,
    Bart Conner making comments on one of the Soviets (or was it the
    Romanian?) on the parallel bars.  He kept commenting that this move
    or that was 'pretty'.  
    
    I felt 'pretty' was not a appropriate for the parallels.  Maybe
    it would be useful for the floor exercises.  I don't know, it just
    didn't sound right.  It seemed a bit demeaning.
    
    Jodi-
   

       And then there was the announcer in the 3-day event who described
       last years gold medal winner (women compete equally with men in
       the equestrian sports) as an "attractive girl who was a good
       athelete also" with the impression being "imagine that!".

       BTW, this is was talking about her as she finished a clear round
       in the cross-country jumping where two others had just been taken
       away by ambulence. This is a tough sport and to treat the women
       who compete as if they were less of a competitor if they were
       considered attractive is a crock of sh*t. liesl

    RE; .10 - Mary Lou
    
    I agree, Mike, if Mary Lou were not "top shelf" she never would've
    competed in 84. Granted, the eastern bloc was absent, but so far
    as U.S. gymnasts were concerned, she was definitely one of the best.
    
    RE: .9
    
    "Pretty" is used to describe nice moves made by both males and
    females. In gymnastics lingo, it describes the *move*, not who
    performed it - it's as likely to be used when a guys's doing a routine
    as when a gal is.
    
    I spent a lot of time around gymnastics as a teen and teacher/coach,
    and I've never heard that word used in a sexist way...
    
    --DE
    

The comment that got me was (paraphrasing) that Florence Griffith Joyner was
the world's fastest woman and a fashion statement at the same time: instead
of showing her training, we got a closeup picture of her fingernails.

There was another "up close" segment that bothered me in a more subtile
manner: interviewing Edwin Moses (400 meter hurdler), they noted in
passing (and very quietly) that he was a physicist.  Given that the
Olympic athletes are supposed to be role models, its sad that there
was more empasis placed on his scuba-diving hobby than on the fact
that he could be a world-class athlete *and* competent in an intellectual
discipline at the same time.  At least Bloom County has Oliver (the hacker).

The marathon coverage retained tv's unbroken streak of cutting to a commercial
whenever anything interesting happened in the race.  (Long distance races
are subtly tactical: the athletes test each other's strength throughout
the race in ways that, if you don't know what you're watching, and don't
have competent commentary, you won't understand).  The gymnastics and
diving events had much better commentators, effectively using replay
and slow-motion technology to explain the techniques.

One of the few positive notes was a long interview with Mary Decker Slaney
that humanized her and dispelled the image of a very unlikable person that
I had ever since 1984.

Martin.

    re: Retton's reputation

    A lot of gymnasts felt that when Retton retired after getting the
    first serious injury of her career, without making much of an
    attempt at a comeback, she displayed an appalling lack of
    toughness and intestinal fortitude.  They've since denigrated
    accomplishments they once admired. 
    
    My daughter's gymnastics team was unanimous in feeling Retton had
    let them down by not making a comeback.  One girl had returned
    from a broken elbow, one from a broken collarbone, another from
    knee surgery -- and they were girls who were going to be lucky to
    be good enough to compete in high school, let alone dream of
    Olympic medals.  The gymnastics ideal is the Japanese gymnast who
    performed on the rings with a broken leg, or the American who
    broke his leg so badly landing wrong on a vault that he severed a
    blood vessel and very nearly lost his leg getting back into shape
    and almost-but-not-quite making this year's team, or the American
    woman from several years back who won some NCAA titles though
    she had only one usable arm.  
     
    Now, how much of this is fair criticism, I'm not sure.  I suspect
    that the disappointment may have been greater at the sport's lower
    levels, because she carried so many of their vicarious dreams, and
    to have her turn out to be less than they were at such a key thing
    was very hurtful.  But it does cause many girls to rate Retton's
    accomplishments much lower than they otherwise would have. 
    
    --bonnie

    Re .13:
    
    I haven't been watching the Olympics, so please excuse me if it's
    obvious, but...can you explain how Joyner has "made a spectacle
    of herself" and how that is responsible for media focus on her
    fingernails instead of on her athletic abilities?
    
    Thanks,
    
    -Tracy
    

    RE: .14 - Mary Lou
    
    Actually, *I* thought she just plain sold out. Got her medals 
    and jumped onto a Wheaties box. Still, she was great during the
    84 Olympics, and let's tell the truth here - women can't continue
    being gymnasts much out of their teens now. Kelly Gerrison-Steves
    is an exception. It truly isn't normally a sport for women anymore
    ...just girls. (No hips, no breasts, higher center of gravity)
    
    RE: FloJo
    
    She may be trying to make a fashion statement, but Joyner-Kersee
    has gotten as much publicity and she isn't nearly as flamboyant.
    It's not like she doesn't back it up - she won the 100 *going away*.
    
    RE: Best (FEMALE) Athlete
    
    Saw an interview with Bruce Jenner, and he said he thought
    Joyner-Kersee was the *best* athlete - Male or Female - in the
    world today.
    
    --DE
    

	What is sports comming to if it's expected of you to force yourself
	back despite severe injury? It's OK for someone to decide that they
	don't mind placing themselves in risk but is it to be demanded of
	everyoe who tries to be an athelete? 

	I worked for a brief period as the x-ray tech for the Notre Dame
	team doctors. Some of those guys were already (at 22-24 years old)
	heading for a sore and miserable old age. Some of them came in before
	every game to have swollen knees and elbows drained so they could
	bend them enough to play. 

	Is it no longer possible to quit while you're ahead? liesl

    The comment last night that really bothered me was made by one of
    the commentators at the diving competition.  He was talking about
    Greg Louganis and how well he's done, especially after having started
    life as the child of 2 unwed teenagers and not having a name til
    he was finally adopted.  I didn't realize that the circumstances
    surrounding his birth should be a deterrent to his athletic ability.
     And what's this business about not having a name?  Just because
    his parents weren't married and he wasn't carrying his father's
    name doesn't mean he didn't have a name! I'm getting real tired
    of these archaic attitudes, and was real tempted to just shut off
    the competition at that point, but diving is my favorite event,
    so I stuck it out and tried to ignore the dumb comments.
    

    re: .18    
    
    Actually, that has a personal interest for me.  The comments as
    usual were cloddish.  (I've avoided most of the commentary of the
    olympics by turning off the sound, and putting good jazz on the
    stereo.)
    
    But this weekend I participate in the celebration of a wedding.  My
    sister is to marry a man who is also adopted, about the same age as
    Louganis.  He bears a resemblance to Louganis - if the two were in the
    same room, you could imagine that they were brothers. 
    
    Oh, it's probably nothing, but somehow I felt connected last night.
    I know Doug feels connected, even if the two aren't "brothers",
    he's proud of Greg, proud like a brother.
    
    The two have never met, and probably never will.  Is there a reason
    to?  It's a nice fantasy.
    
    								-mr. bill

    RE:  girls vs. women, etc.  I couldn't help but think of this note
    while I was watching the male diving competition last night.  There
    was a  *14* year old Chinese BOY diving--he was the one who was
    ahead of Greg Lougainis until the very last dive.  Anyway, throughout
    the entire 9 dive competition, I couldn't help but notice that the
    commentators (both men, Steve McFarland and ??) kept referring to
    this KID as a man.  "Here's our next MAN up to dive..., the technique
    of this MAN is exceptional..."etc.
    
    It really stuck out like a sore thumb to me, especially since I
    had been reading this note all week.  When the women were diving,
    some were referred to as girls, and certainly the women's gymnastics
    team was referred to as girls.  It really makes me angry that a
    14 year old male diver can be referred to as a man, and that these
    commentators don't seem to think twice about calling the female
    athletes girls.  It's really degrading, but the sad thing is, I
    don't think they even realize what they're doing--just goes to show
    you how readily society accepts these terms, without realizing that
    it's dehumanizing to women everywhere.
    

    Re: Florence Griffith Joyner and Jackie Joyner-Kersee
    
    I can't remember which is which, to tell the truth, but I'm not
    watching the Olympics.  (No TV -- I figure you either watch or don't
    watch, but half-and-half just doesn't work.)  Anyway, one of them
    came up with one-legged track outfits.  One side looks like a leotard,
    the other side looks more like bikers' pants.  All in splashy colors.
    Also, she showed up at one meet with six-inch-long fingernails (which
    is just plain insane, runner or not).

    RE: Flo and Jackie
    
    Flo's the one with The Fingernails. She competed in 84 with them
    as long as they are now, and decorated as flashily. They don't seem
    to hinder her performance any. She's also the one with The Outfits.
    
    Jackie's the heptathlete who (yet again) broke her own world record
    for points. Not as flashy as her sister-in-law, but they are both
    wonderful athletes.
    
    --DE
    

    re .18:
    
    > He was talking about Greg Louganis and how well he's done, especially 
    > after having started life as the child of 2 unwed teenagers and not
    > having a name til he was finally adopted.  ... And what's this
    > business about not having a name?  Just because his parents weren't 
    > married and he wasn't carrying his father's name doesn't mean he
    > didn't have a name!
      
    They could have meant that he didn't even have a *first* name until
    he was adopted. It is possible that he was given up for adoption
    at birth and was not named by the biological parents. 
    
    I agree, however, that most of the personal commentary surrounding 
    *all* the athletes is rude and thoughtless. 
    
    After winning the gold in platform diving, Bryant commented about
    how Louganis. as a child was "very introverted and dyslexic" and
    is now the best diver in the world. I was not aware that dyslexia
    would be a hinderance to diving.
    
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    

    I also noticed that Dick Enberg, in his post-win interview with
    Louganis, managed to refrain from mentioning how cute Greg is.
    
    

    re:  Greg Louganis...
    re:  .18, .19, etc.
    
    See the adoption note #166.
    
    Yes, isn't it amazing that an *adoptee* could turn out o.k.
    There is still that leftover attitude that the kids are going to
    be flawed or damaged goods.
    
    Re: .19 and your SO who looks like Louganis...most adoptees live
    in fantasy world because we never had any real information about
    where we've come from.
    
    I think that these news announcers got confused about Greg not having
    a first name.  Just a couple weeks ago in the Parade magazine they
    did an article about Louganis, he did have a different name than
    Greg, and it was given to him by his birth mother.  I think she
    tried to raise him for about 2 years before she gave in and agreed
    to adoption.  I can't imagine that she would have called him 'hey
    you' for two years!
    

    Can we get rid of Bart Connors....he talked so much during the mens
    and womens gymnastics that I couldn't even enjoy watching these
    marvelous athletes do their thing.....also, although I don't think
    MaryLou is so terrific a commentator, Connors never gave her a chance.
    
    Jill

    Re Gymnastics,
    
    Why is it that men's gymnastics emphasizes skills and strength, but women's
    gymnastics emphasizes choreography, arm movements, and cutsey routines
    (for example Nadia Comenici-how ever that is spelled-floor exercise
    with the little pout or temper tantrum piece that everyone chuckled
    over how cute it was)?  I like men's floor exercises, but I detest
    the little dance routines that the women's floor execrices are supposed
    to be made of. I have never really understood why the difference. Does
    anyone else feel the same way about this?
    
    
    

     Re 204.27 by CSC32::MA_BAKER- 

>    Why is it that men's gymnastics emphasizes skills and strength, but women's
>    gymnastics emphasizes choreography, arm movements, and cutsey routines
      
    Um, well, you see...they win points that way.  there are a couple
    of things going on in here.  First, the judges are supposed to respond
    to how well everything is executed.  Try as they might, however,
    they can't help overhearing 'crowd approval' and for all kinds of
    cultural reasons, crowds respond to 'cute' movements by female
    gymnasts.  The best judges (years and years of experience) get
    conditioned by these things.  Now, it includes the things that you
    said are only emphasized in men's gymnastics, too.  Anybody who
    hasn't recognized the stamina and strength required by one of those
    pounding arms-locked vaults or beam routines or uneven-bars moves
    or even the aerial routines on a floor-ex, doesn't recognize strength
    and stamina period.  Watching them practice vaulting is awe-inspiring,
    time after time after time run-run-run-run-WHAM-POUND-(sail)-*THUD*.
    again.  again.  Brutal.
    
    (My sister, after years and years of gymnastics, won a four-year
    scholarship to NC State for it.  I've watched lots of meets...)
                           
    DougO

    re: .27
    
    You might have also noticed on the uneven parallel bars that the
    cute 80-pound gymanst with the little-girl grin got a 10 for a
    routine that had two breaks so obvious even I picked them up,
    while the 5'4" gymnast with the womanly figure got a 9.95 for a
    clearly superior routine.
    
    --bonnie 

    I know that, I was referring to the fact that the better routine
    got the lower score.  
    
    Bart Connors couldn't see a fault in the young woman's routine,
    either.  "I guess the judges must have spotted something I didn't,"
    was his comment, and Retton, in the background, added, "I didn't
    see it either."
    
    --bonnie

well, after reading this note, i've become much more sensitive to 
the seemingly sexist comments on the olympic broadcasts.  i was a 
little later than usual getting to work today, so i heard the 
following comment.  

nbc was showing the semifinal water polo game between the u.s.
and <mumble> (the soviet union, i think).  after the game they
showed a shot of the u.s. cheering section.   the announcer (i
don't remember his name) said something like "it seems that the
handsome water polo players all have beautiful wives".  even 
before my morning coffee, i wondered what that had to do with the 
game (and i'm not usually awake until about 10:00!).

    RE: .32
    
    WEll, at least he said the water polo players were handsome! Usually,
    remarks about looks are only made about the women!
    
    RE: .27 Women's vs mens floor ex
    
    Actually, *I*'ve always wanted to see more dance in the men's
    routines! I think it would tie them together much better rather
    than have them be just a succession of awkward ways to get into
    the corners for the tumbling passes.
    
    --DE