Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    First:
    
    *warm supportive hug*
    
    Second:  this was discussed in the old womannotes, topic 343, "Incest
    - the Coming Out", and you might want to look there for information...
    
    -Jody
    
    p.s.  - by giving these pointers I in no way wish to stifle discussion
    - I'm merely expanding the info-base for the topic.

    Gentle request to the community:
    
    This is a particularly painful topic. Let's be especially gentle
    here and focus on our own and the basenote author's experience.
    If anyone would like to share their stories anonymously, please
    feel free to contact a moderator.
    
    Thanks
    Liz Augustine
    comoderator

    
    
    Angela,
    i've never had to deal with this but i will give my reactions
    to your note.
    i say congratulations.  i think it took alot of guts to put
    in that note, and tell your boyfriend.  my opinion is it is
    certainly a proper step towards working this out.
    
    my little advice is what i'm sure most everyone else will
    say, DON'T BLAME YOURSELF.  and don't doubt the way you reacted.
    its very easy to say if you had acted differently things would
    have been better, but you can never tell, things might have
    been worse.
    as for whether you should tell your mother, that's a tough one
    to which i don't know what to say.
    
    best wishes,
    
    Bob
    

    
    I don't blame myself, but I do feel very guilty because I never
    said anything sooner. It was because I wasn't as strong before.
    My boyfriend has been very supportive of me since day one. 
    
    He dealt with this better than I ever thought anyone could. He dealt
    with my newfound sexuality very well, too. We are best friends and
    even closer than that. We are soul-mates of a sort.
    
    I feel I can tell him anything, and he was the very first one I
    ever opened up to about a lot of things, including this. If it weren't
    for him, I think I would still be too weak.
    
    But I have decided that I have let this secret stay a secret too
    long, let it ruin my life too long. I have to get by it and live
    my life to the fullest. I just don't know how. 
    
    My mother loves him with all her heart, and she'd be lost without
    him. She doesn't realize he treats her bad. She buys his beer for
    him and deals with his hostility after he drinks too much. She takes
    his insults, she drives him wherever he wants to go, She takes time
    off of work for him. And she never keeps secrets from him.
    At least until I moved out. She has helped me out a little financially,
    but couldn't tell him about it because he disowned me when I moved.
    He figures if I can't make it on my own I'll go back home. That
    is the one thing i will never do. 
    
    i love my mother so much and know how much it will hurt her to find
    out this about her husband.. i don't want to ruin her life either,
    because even if it is a bad life it is a life.. what will she do,
    where will she go, when my father's gone, after my brother moves
    out of the house?? Will she live alone??
    
    She comes to me for sanity. She calls me, she writes me letters
    on the tube. I think she needs me. She holds on to me so tight since
    I left home. She needs me. But I can't sacrifice the rest of my
    life and happiness either. I am living happily with my boyfriend,
    and want it to remain that way. I can't live with her at the same
    time...
    
    

    Maybe you don't actually need to tell her about it just now?  It
    might be kinder not to do.
    
    						=maggie

    Angela,
    
    I'd like to offer my support again.  You seem to be going
    through an awful lot right now.  My heart goes out to you.
    
    I can't speak to you from your point of view, but from a
    mother's point of view.  I found out last spring that my
    ex had molested my (then) 3 year old daughter.  Granted,
    I was out of the marriage by then and the only relationship
    he and I had was that of mutual parenthood.  Your situation
    is different because your mother seems to have an emotional
    commitment to your father.  However, as a mother, I know a
    situation like this is easy to ignore.  You just don't want
    to believe that 1.  he is capable of doing such a thing and
    2. that your judgement about people is so faulty that it
    would allow you to be so involved with someone who would
    do something as despicable as molest a child.  If your mother
    is at all aware of what has gone on these are probably some
    of the things she's thinking.  Some people are masters of denial
    and simply refuse to allow some things into their conciousness.
    My advise would be to forget about your mother, avoid your any
    contact with your father, for the time being, and concentrate
    on _you_.  I'm glad that you were able to open up to your boy-
    friend about this but that's only the first step.  Now you need
    to get some professional counseling.  Contact your EAP or a 
    trusted clergyperson.  Remember, what happened to you is
    _not your fault_.  You have been a victim of someone who has
    an illness.  You are _not_ responsible for your father's
    behavior.
    
    Something you might want to be aware of is that (in Colorado
    at least) if a therapist feels there is evidence of abuse of
    a child they _must_ report it to the Department of Social
    Services.  I don't know what happens if the victim is an adult.
    Ask your EAP people.  I didn't know this when I took my daughter
    to a therapist.  It was quite a shock when the therapist told
    me.  However, I'm glad the therapist reported it.  We are now
    waiting for notification from the D.A.'s office on when they
    will try the case.
    
    Luckily my daughter told me about this before it became much of
    an issue for her.  As a mother, although it was hard to accept
    that my ex had done this, my first priority is to protect my
    daughter.  There is something very special about a  mother's
    love for her children.  I think it's the closest _I've_ ever
    come to unconditional love.
    
    Feel free to contact me off line.
    
    Love,
    
    Nanci Van Fleet
    522-5101

    This note is being entered for a member of our community who wishes
    to remain anonymous for now. If you'd like to contact the author,
    please send mail to WMOIS::B_REINKE.
    
    Liz Augustine
    comoderator
    
-------------------------------------------------    

When I was between 7-9 years old, my mother caught my older brother and myself 
on the couch.  To this day I don't know if he was inside me or not.  She 
yelled and screamed at us.  Mostly me.  She called me all kinds of things and 
kept asking me if I wanted to get pregnant (I wasn't even sure at that time 
what or how to get pregnant).  She beat me, following me around the room and 
up the stairs to my room.  I was so scared.  I remember my father later coming 
to my room to talk to me about what happened.  I to this day don't remember 
what he said.  I blocked out a lot from the whole incident (and still have).  
I remember that I could not be left alone with my brother or any other boy.  I 
had to go to work with my mother when there wasn't school otherwise I had to 
go to my Aunts house after school until my mother came to get me.  I'm not 
even sure what they (parents) did to my brother.  I was made to feel that I 
was dirty, disgusting, not trustworthy and that I would make guys come after 
me to do that because I was bad also.  My mother didn't even want me to be 
alone with my father.  I'm not sure if this stuff happened before we were
"caught" or not, but my mother would question my father and my self about how 
long were you home together.  What were you doing?  She wouldn't let me sit
on his lap (he is my step-father and younger by 8 years) or have any type of 
physical contact with him.  I used to block out all that happened and so 
didn't my parents after a while but the same treatment was given to me until 
(and some now), I left home at 17.  No one ever talked about it.  During my 
life growing up I always felt that I should be "used" by men, that was the 
way it was supposed to be (due to some emotional problems my mother has, and 
had taught me, did she get sexually abused? I don't know.)  There's more to the 
story but I don't want to take up to much space (as I already am).  When I was 
28 years old I finally went to a therypist (before that I tried to commit 
sucide twice when I was around 11-13 and twice in my 20's, I drank a lot after 
that but that didn't help after a while), I wasn't until about 6 months later 
I found out that my brother used to bring me in the celler with his best 
friend and touch me.  One day his best friend penetrated me and I remember 
asking my brother why did "Butchie" hurt me, I'm bleeding. Thats all I remember 
of that.  My brother standing there with a hard-on and watching and telling me 
to be quiet.  They must have said something to convice me not to tell anyone.
Because I never did.  Even admit to my self.  Everytime I got any kind of 
flashback, I would push it away.  It was automatic.  There has been other 
sexual abuse but I felt that that was the way it was supposed to be.  It hurt 
me mentally and phycially but........I have been in therapy (will be next 
month) 6 years.  It's been the hardest, most painful, learning and re-learning
thing I've ever had to do.  All these years I've felt it was my fault.  I had 
such a low (somewhat still) opinion of my self/self worth but I'm getting 
better and stronger every day.  I now control most of my life.  

My suggestion is to seek therapy.  I went to a man because most of my anger 
was directed at men due to the abuse.  He has taught me that all men are not 
like the others and it was NOT MY FAULT (the most important part)!  He is a 
very caring person and willing to spend the time I need to "get better".  I 
did not want to have daughters and bring them up the way that I was.  I did 
not want to do the same kind of damage to them that was done to me.  Anger is 
a very strong/powerful emotion, akin to hatred.

Hopefully your SO really loves you and can have the patience and understand 
that even when it's not his fault, and you lash out at him, its a very
traumatic experience.  There is a lot of time and energy in "getting well".
This is something that you can never forget but can some day accept and not 
beat yourself up for it.  YOU WERE A INNOCENT VICTIM!  You can never change 
what happened, just ACCEPT and go on with your life.

First let me say that my entire being goes out to you.. you are
a victim in the worse way.  

Now if you tell your Mother, she will be hurt, and possibly
blame all on you.  Some women do that when the love the man
who does these sick things.  

My Daughter-in-law to be is the victim of Incest, and she was
removed from her Mother, her Father jailed.  (he blamed it on
drinking, the Mother blamed her daughter.)  They got counseling
and she returned to her mother, and her father was given probation
until she left home, and if he was found with Alchol of any
kind in his property, he would be returned to jail.

Therapy and counseling are the big key here, I think, however
remember that your Father is SICK and HE needs help.

I would have a Telephone conversation with him, and tell him
that you are having problems, and going to a Therapist and 
suggest that he do likewise.. He needs the help too.

LIZ, I am so sorry that some members of my sex have not
advanced beyond the stone age.  I do hope that your friend 
and you are able to continue, first you must have trust,
then build a real world environment.  <I pray, that in
the future you have nothing but good, you deserve a break>

In Christian Love, I offer my hand..

Dave

    Slight correction: the author of the base note is named Angela,
    not Liz! We now return you to our regularly scheduled conversation...
    
    Liz Augustine

     Sorry, I didn't observe that the second entry was an anon..
    
    I just looked at the author.  I was reaching in .8 to both the base
    noter and the anon author entered by LIZ.  
    
    Boy, am I ever glowing now.. bright red embarrassedly.
    
    Dave

  I just wanted to say that I agree with the advice given by
  a few people so far for .0 not to tell her mother, but ONLY
  if she is certain that her father no longer has contact with
  children.

  You see, when I was about 11, the neighbor across the street
  attempted something, I can't really say what, because I both
  have trouble talking about it, and because I ran away before 
  I found out how far this sick man would have taken things.

  But in the years after this, I found out: 
  he'd tried to pay a girlfriend (a little older than me at the time) to
  have sex with the group of men who came over to his house
  to play cards, he was an alcoholic who beat his wife, he had
  a huge collection of Dutch "kiddie-porn".
  And what tears me apart every time I think about it are the
  questions "What did he try with my little sisters? What has he
  tried with his two sons?"

  I realize that I was very lucky, that my situation is trivial
  compared to .0 and .8's, but I just wanted to make sure that
  this man is never allowed to be near other children before
  we all encourage .0 to keep this secret from her mother.

I agree with the previous noter.  If .0's father still has contact with 
children then (at least!) the mother should be told.  For one thing,
I get the impression that .0's (Angela's?) little brother is living with
his father.  No matter if he is 17, he still will probably not be able
to handle overtures from his own father - big authority figure!

I am starting therapy for the third time to deal with my molestation from
my father.  The first time the therapist had never dealt with it before;
the second time the therapist had dealt with it only some.  This time I
asked for recommendations for therapists who were quite skilled with 
the issue of child molestation.  Each time that I have worked on this it has
helped.  I want this over with, though.  I want to feel good again.
I want no more nightmare, no more flashbacks, no more bad feelings.

         Carol

    RE: .0
    
    My heart goes out to you, whoever you are.
    
    It's a hard call as to what to do after all these years.  There
    are a lot of good suggestions here.  If you do decide it's best
    to confront your mother, why not do what Ann Landers has 
    recommended to her readers on many occasions...give a copy of
    your letter (basenote) to your mother to read.  I think it begins
    to say what needs to be said, it is for the most part gentle on
    your mother and it may be less offensive to her because it was not
    written directly to her.  
    
    Good luck,
    Jodi- 

    Angela,
    
    You've made the first big step in dealing with the nightmare - you're
    talking about it.  Many women who have been molested by relatives
    are unable to discuss it with anyone, even a counselor.  I add my
    support, caring and "major hugs" to all the others for you.
    
    You are also fortunate in that your boyfriend is supportive and
    patient.  Many times the reaction is terrifyingly negative,
    reinforcing all the self-destructive opinions you formed years
    ago.  My hat is off to him (if I had a hat, that is...)
    
    It has been a shocking revelation to me to realize that perhaps half
    of the women I have been close to were molested as children.  Some
    have dealt with it better than others.  I believe that the path
    to resolution is to bring it all out into the light.  You should
    tell your mother - as soon as possible.  She may not believe you,
    she may blame you, but tell her anyway.  You may want to consider
    telling your brother (or any other siblings you have).  It's NOT
    going to be easy.  But the alternative is likely to be that the
    poison remains within you for the rest of your life.
    
    Putting it in writing is a good idea, if that helps you.

    Know that we care and are here for you.
    
    				Steve

    RE: .0
    
    Please get the book:
    
    		"The Courage to Heal"
    
    You may find it quite difficult to get thru, but once you do, it
    will be *extremely* helpful...  I promise!  The book is $15.95,
    and can be found (or ordered) at major bookstores...
    
    Gale

    
    Angela,
    
    My brother-in-law is doing a life sentence in a Florida prison for
    molestation of his step-children. 
  
    My mother-in-law doesn't take any sh*t from her kids.  When she learned
    what Jimmy had done, she helped put him away.  By this time, old
    concerns from his first marriage had started to surface again and were
    found to be valid. 
    
    A life sentence in Florida for child molestation is a mandatory 25 year
    term before being parole can be considered.  If parole is granted, he
    will be extradited to Massachusetts and tried on three counts of incest
    and child molestation for his own children. 
    
    What a wasted life.  Thirty years old and this is his future.
    
    I suggest you tell your Mother, Angela.  My brother-in-law has already
    damaged the lives of 5 or 6 children (that I know of) and he'll never
    get near my son.  These issues don't just stop.  Someone, somewhere has
    to start the ball rolling. 
    
    Hugs,
    Beckie
    

    
    	Sick men were once innocent little boys who are likely recreating
    "what was once done to them". This man need help, to somehow put
    back what was never given him through his "abandonment". That's his
    problem now. (I only mention this so you may one day choose to hate the
    problem, not the person.) The drinking and Mom's infinite loyalty to
    Dad are further manefestations of the problem I'm talking about.
    One that trully deserves *everyones* hate. You may wish to read
    "Bradshaw On: The Family" By John Bradshaw, to further your
    understanding of this, along with whatever work you choose to do
    for *you*. The book is available at the Acton bookstore and it's
    about $10. I'd be willing to pick up a copy for you, if you're in
    Colorado and cant find one. I highly recommend it.
    
    	Joe Jas

This is a reply from another member of the community who wishes
    to be anonymous. As in the first case I will be glad to forward
    mail to the writer. Please be careful to indicate the note
    number when responding in this string or by mail to either anonymous
    noter.
    
    Bonnie Reinke
    moderator
    
    
    
    Well here goes. I will start from the begining I was involved with
incest when I was in the third grade with an uncle who lived in my parents
house (he was not a blood relative) he was left to babysit us there were
five of us everyone would be locked outside to play but me cause I was 
special, what you imagine is what happened , to this day I have told no
one details. But this situation led to my sister and brother to hate me
cause I was special and got to stay in the house (little did they know it
was no fun). When I was 18 I got married and was three months pregnant at
the time so I lost my all my friends and my father stopped talking to me.
When the baby was born Aug 1969 my father fell in love with her and started
talking to me again. My husband of 20 years knows my past and without him
I don't know how I would have survived. Sex in our marriage was hard many
bad memories from the past but my husband understood and worked this through
with me. When my first child was just a few months old my uncle called my
dad and said he was coming for a visit. He had moved to Florida several years
prior and thus I had felt somewhat comfortable. Now my husband,daughter and
I had just moved into my parents house till we could find lower rent. I
paniced when I found out he was coming. My husband said I must tell my dad
what happened in the past so I asked to talk with him and when I was talking
to him he refused to look at me and wanted details I just could not tell him
his answer to all this was it was too late to do anything about it. 
     I blanked out and don't remember the visit my uncle made to our house 
at all. Next thing to happen is my son was born OCT 1970 and almost died 
again I withdrew from reality and don't recall what happened. My husband
is an alcholic but has been sober for 2 years 5 months now. Just before my
husband straightened out I had a nervous breakdown came to work at Parker
street in Maynard one morning could not talk or type and my vision was bad
so that was when I knew I needed help and went to EAP. I was sent to
Boundaries in Acton for help and found out that my daughter at that time 15
was doing drugs and drinking heavy. after a few weeks my husband was in a 
treatment center in New York and my daughter in a treatment center in New
Hampshire. My son and I coped fairly well for those 8 weeks.
     When my kids were 3 and 4 years old my best freind told me my husband
was trying to date her. My husband came home from treatment and two days later
this freind moved in our house with her son she was divorcing her husband.
Hard time she spent too much time with my husband whom I was trying to get
to know again for now he was sober.
     Before my husband and daughter went into treatment centers my daughter
told the Boundaries people her dad had sexually assulted her they told me
either I believe her or DSS would take her from me. 
     This is where my situation is today My daughter had an abortion two
years ago which I still have a problem dealing with and my daughter has no
problem sitting with dad or hugging him or going places alone with him or
anything so I do not can not I don't know accept she was ever abused by him.
I have been there and MENTALLY still once abused or been in incest you never 
feel safe near that person again. My uncle died about ten years ago and this is
how sick I am I was glad he died and still am. The closeness with my daughter
and I has not been there since the time she said what she did about her father
My dad never told my mom what happened to me so she was never there when I 
needed her. I just found out two years ago that dad never told her and I 
needed her to understand why I have so much trouble with any type of doctor
appointments. How do I forgive Dad. How do I get close to mom again. How do
I get close to my daughter again. Sex is not good it hurts so bad and the
nightmares have never stopped. What is wrong with me how come I cannot let
the past go. I have only my husband no one else who knows and can help me
Boundaries lied to me my husband and my daughter to get them in treatment
now I no longer trust them they also reported to DSS what a 15 year old
girl doing drugs and drinking said, incest with her dad, as TRUTH no matter
what I said.
     So now you see I'm screwed up can not cope with the past have many blanked
time periods I don't remember and my family other than my husband I feel distant
from.  Maybe it is not possible but I want normal sex without pain and closeness
with hugs with my kids and family. But I am scared to get help, they will report
things, and all I want is help. I have had check ups over the years and there
is no medical reason for my pain during sex. My daughter is 19 son 18 now.

re: .19(?)

You say that you are sick because you are glad that your uncle died.
This is NOT sick.  This is perfectly normal.  Your confusion and your pain
are normal, too.  You should really see a therapist.  They would not have
to report the abuse done to you because you are an adult and the perpetrator
is dead.  I don't know what the rules are about your daughter because I don't
know exactly what has already been done (by/through Boundaries).  Have you
ever asked your daughter about the molestation?  It seems like all of your
information about her was from Boundaries.

It really helps to have someone with whom you can talk this out.  If you 
can't afford the normal therapist prices then check with the local County
Mental Health (or whatever it is called in your area).  They usually have
lower prices for people with lower incomes.

Good luck.
                Carol

This is a reply to .21 from the author of .19
    
    ________________________________________________
    
    
I am trying to find a therapist now and hopefully I will succeed soon. I 
need to find one close to home. I was hoping my insurance would cover any
bills in relation to a therapist. As far as my daughter is concerned she
had what she said reported to DSS and I don't feel that was right after all
she was doing drugs and alcohol at the time how could they believe her she
knew of friends of hers who went through this she was 15 and never ever has
had a problem in any way with her relationship with her father no fear anger
discomfort? This tells me she just said what she did so she would not have to
go to that center for help and so her father who disaplined her would have to 
to leave. I have been there you never feel safe or secure with a person who
victimizes you. I can not discuss it with her she may continue to lie to 
protect the lie she already told 4 years ago. She did say she was constantly
presured about abuse to the effect that she surely must have had it. It is 
good to know that maybe I am normal but hard to face being glad about someone
being dead regardless of the circumstances.

This is from a third contributor. As mentioned previously try and
    refer to note numbers when answering the anonymous writers.
    
    __________________________________________________


	I am 19 years old and my boyfriend is 21.  I have been going
with him for 4 months now and we are very much in love and plan to
get married in about a year and a half.

	My problem is - he was molested by his father when he was
younger.  My boyfriend has never opened up enough to tell me exactly
what happened to him and it hurts me to know that he hates his father
so much and won't tell me what he did.  He tells me he has never told
anyone about any of it so I guess I'm lucky that he told me his father
did something to him.  

	What I'm wondering is if anyone has the same type of problem
with their boyfriend or if you can give me any ideas as to how to
help him open up to me.  I feel that if we are going to get married
then nothing should be kept secret between us.  Not matter how muych
support I promise to give him and how many times I ask him about it
he won't tell me anything.

	Also, do you really believe that if he was molested then
he will do the same to our children????

    re: .23
    
    Well, a pretty hefty percentage of people who molest children were
    themselves molested when they were young.  I don't know that the
    reverse holds true, however.  Especially if he gets counselling.
    
    Rather than trying to make him talk to you, you probably should
    try to get him to see a counselor who specializes in abuse who can
    help him deal with his feelings about what happened.  One of
    the typical reactions to abuse is to feel that if I had been
    a better person, this wouldn't have happened, so he might well
    feel that if he tells you more, you'll know what a rotten person
    he really is and you won't love him any more.  This is the
    kind of feeling that a counsellor can help him work through.
    
    --bonnie

    Dear Angela,
    
    I am writing to you as a mother of a daughter who suffered an
    incestuous relationship with my first husband for several years.
    The relationship was abusive both physically and emotionally for
    everyone in the family, but that does not excuse my part in the
    incest.  You see, Angela, I KNEW my husband was doing something
    unhealthy with my daughter, but everytime I tried to touch that
    reality, to prove it, my husband said I was sick.  I had a filthy
    mind, and that NOTHING was going on.  When I asked my daughter,
    she also said there was nothing there (obviously too scared to tell
    me the truth), nothing between them.  I seriously questioned my
    sanity, and, therefore did nothing.  I was a fool to doubt my own
    instincts, but I really began to believe I was the one with the
    problem.  I felt devastated by my inner feelings, and only much
    later learned the truth.  I've heard it said that the non-interfering
    parent KNOWS, even though it may be denied as too terrible to be
    reality; so, it just may be that your mother KNOWS the same way
    I did, but doubted her instincts.  I wish my daughter HAD told me
    the truth because somehow I would have found the courage to do
    something.  I would have made him stop, and I told him as much point
    blank, even though I had been a victim of his abuse for several
    years and was terrified of him.  It may be that your mother needs
    her eyes opened.  I wish mine had been earlier.
    
    One thing you can do, is to get yourself emotionally back in balance
    then possibly help other victims of incest to do the same.  This
    would help you to re-enforce your "okayness" and help others
    desperately in need.  I wish you the best and know that by facing
    reality, you're already part way there.
    
    In Support
    
    Barb

    Another good book is "Father-Daughter Incest" by Judith Herman.
     The publisher is Harvard University Press (cost $7.95).
    
    My heart goes out to you.
    
      - w -

    re:.23
    
    The best thing for you to do is not to keep at him to open up
    to you. I'm sure that he knows that you care for and about him,
    and only want to help, but sometimes pushing will only make him
    pull away all the more. He can only talk with you about it when
    he's ready to.
    
    I also agree with Bonnie R. that you suggest that he see a
    counselor. He may well feel freer to discuss the matter with
    someone not so close to him.
    
    --- jerry

This is from an anonymous member of our community. To help keep
    the replies separate she has signed her mail 'J'.
    
    Bonnie Reinke
    comoderator
    
    ---------------------------------------------------
    
    
I have been trying to come to terms and deal with the issue of incest for
a just a few months now.  Sometimes I think I have come along way and then 
times like today I feel I really haven't come to far at all.  I have so many
questions and don't feel too comfortable asking anyone openly.  Some of my
concerns follow...

I was sexually abused by stepfather for many years.  The hardest thing I have 
dealing with around this issue is that my MOTHER let it continue to happen.
I know she knew about, without me telling her...I mean you don't have 11-15
come home, after being out with him for hours, being bruised and scarred etc.
It makes you wonder what type of person you were?  I can't help but feel that 
I must of been a really low kid or something...that I was doing something that
wrong, that made my own mother not want to help me...And not want to leave him.
I wonder did she see it as something that I asked for?  Or did I ask for it.
I would think at ages like 6 7 8 a kid wouldn't be looking for sex from men...
I try hard to believe that too.  But then thinking about my mother just confuses
me so much.  I honestly know that she knew because everything was so evident at
the time, I mean the way that things went on...So why?  Is this a question
only she can answer or does anyone have any ideas?  

A couple months ago I confronted my mother on the issue of all of this, iut
was a pretty bad confrontation at that, in where I was really sarcastic and
said things that I now wish I hadn't, after our conversation she 
had a suicide attempt...came very close.  Now on top of everything I feel
pretty guilty about this because I know if I wouldn't of said the things I 
said it wouldn't of happened.  Then part of me knew if she died I wouldn't
be able to live with myself, and the other part didnt' care...I feel awful
about that too.  Part of me feels that the only reason she attempted to kill 
herself was because she wanted to make me feel even more guilty than I do.
Then I feel selfish for thinking about her in this way...I mean she is my 
mother.  But what did I do wrong to make her hate me this way?


Thanks for listening,
J

This is from a net mailing list.
	Mez

From:	DECWRL::"amdcad!uiucdcs!rayssd.RAY.COM!hxe" "Heather Emanuel  27-Jun-88 1730 EDT" 27-JUN-1988 22:08
To:	[email protected]
Subj:	Group Message 1637

[NOTE:  THIS IS A "FOR YOUR INFORMATION" POSTING]
 
June 27, 1988		Message 1637 from David Drexler
 
This is taken - with permission - from a pamphlet distributed by the
Incest Recovery Association.  Even though it is being submitted by a
male, written by a male, and directed towards males, I feel that the
subject matter is very much appropriate to this group.  Not all of
it is specifically oriented towards incest, either.  Plenty of what
is said here applies to all relationships.
 
I found this material very informative, and helpful in dealing with
my SO's problems - and my own.  If there are any women on the list
who can relate to this text, and I'm sure there are, I'd suggest
that they hardcopy it and share it with their mates.
 
David Drexler
_______________________________________________
-----------------------------------------------
 
When The Silence Is Broken
 
A guide for men who love and live with women who were sexually
abused as children
 
Charles E Harris, M. Div,. CSW-ACP
 
Incest Recovery Association - dedicated to aiding former victims of
incest
 
6200 N Central Expressway, Suit 209
Dallas Texas 75206
 
[214] 373-6607
 
For the women who have trusted me with their stories, and the men
they love.
 
_______________________________Introduction________________________________
 
At some point in time you decided to share your life with someone
who is a survivor of childhood sexual abuse.  You may have talked
with your partner about this information from the beginning, or it
may have surfaced only recently.
 
Regardless of when you became aware of the abusive part of her past,
at some level of her being you have probably known all along.  You
may not have known that you knew, but you knew.  This kind of
knowledge is difficult to respond to because it is based on feelings
and subtle intuition rather than factual information.
 
Yet, even when the information becomes specific, not many people
know what to do.  This pamphlet has been prepared as an aid to those
who love and live with former victims of sexual abuse.  It is
written with the male partner in mind since the vast majority of my
clients have been female, but I am not unaware that many men were
also abused as children.  I am also aware that some women may be in
a gay relationship.  If the information herein is helpful also to
female partners, I am grateful.
 
________________________________Be Informed________________________________
 
There is no substitute for accurate information.  The problem of
sexual abuse, especially when it is incest, carries such an
emotional impact that many people do not want to think or talk about
it.  Even some therapists shy away from the specifics and the
intense emotional expressions that accompany them.  As a result,
most of us tend to respond to sexual abuse situations out of
ignorance and emotion.  When we do this, we only make matters more
difficult for everyone involved.
 
If you are going to function in a supportive way to the woman in
your life who has been abused, then you have a responsibility to
learn as much as you can about sexual abuse.  Part of her struggle
over the years has been that she had to live alone with a painful
secret because she felt that there was no one to whom she could
turn.  She may even have been given misinformation as a child in
order to intimidate and control her, e.g., "Your mother would just
die if she knew about this."
 
When she finally shared her secret with someone, chances are she
wasn't believed or, if she was believed, she may have been blamed
for her own victimization.  Along with guilt, shame, fear, betrayed
trust and rage she couldn't show, she now had to deal with
confusion.  She couldn't trust her own thoughts and feelings, her
own sense of reality.
 
For her to feel your support she needs to know you believe her and
that you care enough to be informed.  This means some reading on
your part.  A brief reading list can be found at the end of this
pamphlet.
 
Your community may offer support groups for spouses of sexual abuse
victims.  Check with your local Mental Health Association for this
information.
 
__________________________Treatment May Be Lengthy_________________________
 
Some human behavior problems respond to brief therapy.  You have a
few sessions with the therapist, make the changes you want, and
you're feeling better fairly quickly.  On the whole, this is not
true for people who were sexually abused as children.
 
Several factors need to be considered: the specific nature of the
abuse; the age of the girl when it occurred; how long it went on and
how long she carried the secret; how significant people in her life
responded when she told how she perceived the situation, etc.  As
you can see, the involvement is complicated.
 
This kind of entanglement usually takes time to unravel.  While
there is no way specifically to predict the exact amount of time, I
usually tell my clients to count on six months to two years, maybe
longer.  This may sound like a long time to you, but remember that
the woman you care about has had many years of coping with this
problem alone.  She won't be able to just lay it down and walk
away.  There may even be times years into the future when old
memories and feelings resurface, and she will need help and
support.  She'll need you to stand by her through the ups and downs
of her growth.  Deep wounds take time to heal.
 
______________________Understand Your Responsibility_______________________
 
When we are victimized by a certain type of situation or type of
person, we tend to generalize the experience and be wary of all
similar circumstances or people.  This is especially true of
children who have been sexually abused.  Normally, this generalized
fear carries over into adulthood.
 
Since the vast majority of sexual abusers are male (one resource
says over 90% are male) you already fall into the category of an
abuser.  This, of course, doesn't make you one, but the little girl
part of your wife or girlfriend may not know the difference.  To
that little girl, you may represent the source of a lot of of
unresolved pain.
 
Adults who have been abused as children often replicate an abusive
situation in their adult relationships.  At times you may be treated
by her as though you have been abusive.  Indeed, you may even feel
provoked into saying or doing abusive things.  It is important for
you to maintain your perspective and not be "hooked" into playing
the out role that has been cast for you by her childhood
perpetrator.
 
You are not responsible for what happened to the woman in your life
when she was a child.  You can't help her forget it or undo it.  You
ARE responsible for you relate to her NOW.
 
Every relationship has its own peculiar problems to be worked
through.  Your wife is learning to know the difference between her
perpetrator(s) and you.  If you have not been abusive, then you need
not feel guilty for those times when that difference becomes fuzzy
to her.  If you have been abusive in any way (verbal, emotional,
physical, sexual), then you need to admit it, stop it, and get help
for yourself.
 
From time to time she will have feelings and memories surface that
are not necessarily related to you.  Even if she knows the
difference, she may be unable for a period of time to keep those
feelings and memories from affecting her relationship with you.  You
will need to recognize this as part of her healing process (if she
is in treatment) and learn to be supportive and patient.
 
_____________________Develop Your Communication Skills_____________________
 
Several years ago an expert in the art of communications wrote,
"dialogue is to love what blood is to body" (Reuel Howe, "The
Miracle of Dialogue").  Relationships begin with with some kind of
attraction and mutual interest.  They can only be sustained over the
years, however, by effective communication.
 
It is therefore important that you learn and practise clear, direct
ways of communicating your feelings so that relationship problems
can be dealt with as they arise.  Your spouse's experience as a
child probably included not only a breakdown in communications in
her family, but also a suppression of clear, honest expression of
thoughts and feelings.  In order to protect her "secret" she most
likely had to guard against revealing any thoughts or feelings even
remotely related to the secret.
 
This natural protective response in her helped her through
childhood, but at the expense of having a lot of emotional
"unfinished business" from the past.  Communicating is a major skill
necessary for resolving life's daily problems.  When people don't
have that skill or are not allowed ot use it, then the unresolved
daily problems tend to collect into an emotional slush fund that
interferes with future relationships.  This is true for all people,
not just sexual abuse victims.
 
It is this slush fund of unfinished emotional pain that drains rela-
tionships of their life blood.  The only way to restore life to the
relationship is a transfusion of good communication.  There may be
a lot of pain in this process, but it is necessary if healing is to
take place.
 
There will be times when your behavior triggers some of her pain
from the past.  What you may not realize is that the reverse is also
true.  Some things she does may also stir up in you feelings from
years ago you thought you had forgotten.  Only effective
communication will get you through these times.
 
________________Begin To View Your Relationship As A System________________
 
In your relationship each of you initiates and each of you
responds.  Each of you impacts the other with his or her behavior.
Each of you brings a certain amount of unfinished business to the
partnership.  The specific nature of this material from the past may
differ widely.  Its similarity is that it is all "unfinished", and,
therefore, affects your behavior in the relationship.
 
If you can begin to accept that your past experience coupled with
your present behavior plays a dynamic role in your relationship, you
will be doing a valuable service to both you and your wife.  For
yourself, you will be seeing the world from a more realistic
perspective.  The service to your wife may be to ease the blame she
has felt for a long time.
 
Most sexual abuse victims believe (as children) that they are to
blame for their abuse.  They reason, falsely of course, that as a
child, they should have been able to do something to stop what an
adult was doing to them.
 
When this self blame is not corrected, these women tend to believe
that any problem in adult relationships is all their fault, too.
Your owning your part in the relationship will help the woman in
your life absolve herself of the false guilt she has carried for so
long and will enable her to see her part in the relationship more
clearly.
 
______________________________Sexual Problems______________________________
 
Problems of sexual function are common for sexual abuse victims,
especially while they are working through their past trauma.  The
sexual problems of victims usually take the form of one of two
extremes.  They may either totally close themselves off as a sexual
being, or they may become very active sexually to the point of
promiscuity.
 
Each response is understandable, considering the dynamics of sexual
abuse.  The person who shuts down sexually is probably doing so in
order to eliminate, or at least minimize, the emotional pain
associated with her abuse.  This withdrawal may be limited only to
love making and intercourse, or it may include any form of physical
contact or affection from another person perceived as threatening.
Some learn to "do their duty" for their mates, but usually with
little or no personal pleasure and lot of resentment.
 
The person who reacts toward the extreme that she becomes so
sexually active she harms herself and her relationships has her
reasons, too (the reasons aren't always fully conscious).  This
woman has difficulty distinguishing between love, caring, affection,
and human warmth on the one hand, and sexual behavior on the other.
She tends to equate the two and believe that in order to get caring,
warmth, etc, she has to be sexual.  She usually finds men who are
happy to manipulate her confusion in this area.
 
Sometimes victims will vacillate between these two extremes.
Neither extreme brings them what they need, and both can be
frustrating and threatening to the spouses.
 
The man in this kind of relationship need to be supportive of his
wife's struggle with her sexuality, while at the same time finding
ways to sublimate his own sexual needs.  Exercise and masturbation
are two ways to gain some relief from sexual tension.  Some men
think they can't exist without sex from a woman.  This, of course,
is a myth.  If you are one of those men who has fallen prey to this
myth, you might want to have a few visits with a qualified therapist
to explore this type of thinking.  What you learn could be helpful
to you and and might keep you from putting unrealistic expectations
on your wife to take care of your sexual needs.
 
Many men in our culture tend to equate closeness with sex.  They
don't know how to be nurturing and physically close without
expecting sex.  Such men place undue burdens on their wives.  When
the wife needs the nurturing and closeness, but not the sex, she is
faced with a difficult decision.  Either she risks offending her
husband when she accepts the closeness and refuses sex, or she
betrays herself by giving in to sex in order to have any form of
affection.  If this woman happens to be a former sexual abuse
victim, this scenario is probably a reproduction of her dilemma as a
child.
 
The sexual part of your relationship with your wife may be the most
difficult for you to handle.  You can help yourself and her by using
this time as an opportunity for you to grow in your awareness of
yourself and the area of human sexuality.  You will find some
helpful resources on maleness in the reading list at the end of
this pamphlet.
 
_____________________You Are A Part Of What's Going On_____________________
 
If you have read this far you have no doubt become aware that I view
your wife's abuse as not just her problem, but something the two of
you share.  Your acceptance or rejection of this premise will play
an important part in your relationship with her and in her resolving
her pain from the past.
 
Most sexual abuse victims live with a sense of of isolation.  At
first it is the secret they must keep that forces them into a
private world.  Then, if they tell their secret, they are often made
to feel that they are different, even contaminated, for what has
happened to them.  For you to take the attitude that it is "her
problem" alone reinforces this feeling of isolation.
 
In the introduction of this booklet I proposed that at some level
you probably "knew" that your wife was victim of sexual abuse.  Let
me explain what I meant by that.  I'm not talking necessarily about
conscious, verifiable knowledge.  Perhaps "sense" would a better
word.  Because none of us grows to adulthood having achieved all our
developmental tasks, we each bring that "unfinished business" I
mentioned earlier into our relationships.  We are usually unaware
of the process going on inside us.
 
Part of our attraction to other people and/or situations is that we
"sense" in them an opportunity to "finish" the learning and growth
tasks we didn't finish at home with our parents.  We usually don't
have words to describe this attraction, which may indicate that the
process is not fully conscious.  It is nonetheless strong, however.
 
An honest question might be "Why would I be drawn to someone who was
abused as a child?" There is no simple answer to this question.
There are several possibilities to explore.  Perhaps you, too, in
some way experienced abuse when you were young, and you sensed,
"Here is a person who will understand." It may be that you were not
a victim, but that someone in your childhood was, i.e, your sister,
a friend, even your mother.  Helping your wife through her abuse
pain may be a way to make up for not being able to resolve the pain
of that person in your childhood.  Another possibility is that as a
child you may have been shy around women.  Part of your attraction
to your spouse may have been that because of her abuse you sensed
she wouldn't be threatening or domineering.
 
The possible combinations of attractions are endless when you get
down to specifics.  In general, however, the unfinished business
people bring from their childhood plays an important part in how
they pick a mate.  I urge you to be willing to explore your part in
the attraction process.
 
It may be that you will want to see a therapist yourself for
guidance along these lines.  This doesn't mean that you are
pathological.  View it as an opportunity for growth both as a person
and in your relationships.  At some point in time your wife's
therapist may recommend marital or relationship therapy.  I hope you
will be willing to participate.
 
___________________________There Is Always Hope____________________________
 
People can and do change.  Even though having been sexually abused
as a child is one of the most difficult traumas a person has to
resolve, many women (and men) do overcome the pain and find
fulfillment in life.  When you live with a person who is in the
process of overcoming the pain, you become a part of that drama.
While you are not responsible for your partner's past, you are
responsible for your part in the relationship that exists today.
You can be part of the resolution of the your loved one's pain
instead of part of its perpetuation.  And she can help you grow,
too.  I wish you well as you grow together.
 
____________________________________
Charles E. Harris, M. Div., CSW-ACP is a pastoral counsellor/social
worker practising in Arlington, Texas.  He has worked in the area of
sexual abuse for several years treating adult and child victims and
their families as well as perpetrators and their families.  He has
been a group leader with Incest Recovery Association since 1983
 
READING LIST
 
Armstrong, Louise, "Kiss Daddy Goodnight"; Hawthorn Books, Inc.,
 N.Y., N.Y., 1978
 
Bass, Ellen and Thornton, Louise, editors, "I Never Told Anyone";
 Harper Colophon Books, 1983
 
Brady, Katherin, "Father's Days"; Seaview Books, N.Y., N.Y., 1979
 
Gil, Eliana, "Outgrowing The Pain"; Launch Press, San Francisco, 1983
 
Goldberg, Herb, "The New Male"; Signet Books, 1979
 
Zilberg, Bernie, "Male Sexuality"; Bantam Books, 1978
 
--------------------------
Reprinted by permission from a hardcopy pamphlet distributed by the
Incest Recovery Association
 
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I Flew oil exploration, and our pilot was very good, except for the
alcohol that he consummed.  I never found the problem until later,
even he did not know the reason for his problems.  

He would go to sleep and have very vivid nightmares about being
assaulted and brutalized.  Hypnosis and therapy were the cure that
he needed.  His Step-father was a drunken brute who would come in
and sodemize him while he slept.  (the pilot was only seven at this
time.)  Hence his problems, while he slept.  He remembered waking
up in a bed soaked with blood, and all of the problems while
under hypnosis, however he had blocked out all memorys while awake,
the only problem was the nightmares, so he drank to avoid the 
nightmares.  He would pass out and waken about 2-3 hours later
with the nightmare.  He would then continue drinking.  He is now
cured, The hypnosist had him tell all of the details, and as they
were told they were to be left in the deepest reaches of his memory,
and not to be recalled.. If ever the problem were to resurface he
was to go to the hypnosist.  So far no problems, and he is a non
drinking PILOT for a major airline.  His wife related the tale 
to me, and he does not know consiously.

He had to come to understand that his S-F was a sick man, and that
his mother was also sick.. she could not have missed the bloody mess
in his bed.  After that he was told that he had no guilt, as he was
a child and asleep.  The reinforcement of the Therapy worked well,
and he has been okay for 5-6 years or more.

In therapy there is hope for even the worst of problems, and if 
you can change the hatred, you will remove your cancer.. Hatred is
a cancer of the mind.  

I would not ask anyone to understand the sick mind that perpertrated
some of these awful crimes, nor to love the person, just understand
that they are sick, and their sickness has been passed on to you.
That is a beginning.  

Best of luck and I send prayers your way.

Dave

    
    	J-
    
    	Hi. You have internalized the shame you feel over what happened
    with your stepfather when you were a child. This is the *natural
    reaction* that children have to this sort of thing, and that you
    feel *you* are to blame and are "bad" as a result of what happened
    is perfectly normal. There is nothing wrong with you or your feelings
    at all! With this in mind, you could work through these feelings,
    express them perhaps to these people, in therapy, or in group for
    recovery. I stress that is in in the expresion of these valid feelings
    that you have that positive self esteem comes about.
    
    	Your mother may have been "powerless" to do anything about it.
    I put that in quotes to show that she may have been this way *from her 
    perception*. From yours, of course, you cant understand why. Well,
    I'd guess that it was due to co-dependancy and addiction to the
    man. Fear of the unknown - a most powerful one - probably had a
    lot to do with her not calling him on it. One does not let fear
    rule their life and does not set up co-dependant relationships unless
    their will was broken (by whatever means it took) when they were
    a child. Perhaps her will was murdered when she was a child and
    as an adult cannot effect change - even with the evidence for doing
    so right before her eyes. Perhaps she was "well learned" that she
    was not to express feelings of any kind, so she repressed them,
    leading to the hate that you mentioned over what was going on.
    Remember, the man that possibly *gave her everything* in terms of
    how she felt about herself made a different choice in time. She
    was probably pretty upset about it, but too scared to face the issue
    and the subsequent changes doing so would have mandated.
    
    	Remember that our parents did not have access to the results
    of "family system theory" studies; the information we have available
    to us now. It's fair to say that they were ignorant. Perhaps the
    one that "shoulda known" was only doing what s/he could, given the
    mindset that they were given to "prepare for life" or whatever.
    
    	Even something as simple as the context structure of "The Ten 
    Commandments" with ten "Thou shalt NOT"s repeatedly enforces the
    "I'm Bad" message that the Catholic Religion wants all it's parishners
    to believe at the outset of life. (You dont even come into this world
    "any good" or whatever). Some people have no idea what this does to a
    person as they are developing into an adult; the absolute parental
    rules, the absolute school rules, the absolute religious rules,
    all of which teach that the individual's feelings are invalid, their
    feeling of self shall be minimal and that individual pride is
    generally unhealthy. Parts of society are waking up to it, however.
    
    	Joe Jas                    

	Chapter 4, "Stifiling the child within" from "Healing the child
within" by Charles L. Whitfield M.D. Reprinted w/o permission.

	How do our parents, other authority figures and institutions - 
such as education, organized religion, politics, the media, and even
the helping professions - stifle or deny our Child within? How can we identify
whether *we* were affected? What factors or conditions made our parents and 
others stifle our Child?

				Some Human Needs

	In ideal circumstances, some human needs must be fulfilled so that 
our Child within can develop and grow. Drawing on authors such as Maslow 
(1962), Weil (1973), Miller (1983 84) and Glasser (1985), I compiled a 
hierarchial list of twenty factors or conditions that I call "human needs".
Nearly all are associated with our relationship with ourself and with people
around us.

	To reach our full growth potential, we apparently require most of
these needs. Growing up in an environment without these needs, we grow up 
automatically without realizing that our needs have not been met and are
not being met. We often feel confused and chronically unhappy. These are:

	1. Survival
	2. Safety
	3. Touching, skin contact
	4. Attention
	5. Mirroring
	6. Guidance
	7. Listening
	8. Being Real
	9. Participating
	10. Acceptance

		- Others are aware of, take seriously and admire the Real You
		- Freedom to be the Real You
		- Tolerance of your feelings
		- Validation
		- Respect
		- Belonging and love

	11. Opportunit to grieve losses and grow
	12. Support
	13. Loyalty and trust
	14. Accomplishment

		- Mastery
		- Creativity
		- Having a sense of completion
		- Making a contribution

	15. Altering one's state of consciousness
	16. Sexuality
	17. Enjoyment or fun
	19. Nurturing
	20. Unconditional Love


			The Unfulfilled Parent

	Rarely does anyone find a mother, other parent figure or close friend
who is even *capable* of providing or of helping us to meet all our needs -
much less one who delivers them. There is usually no such person available.
(In fact, getting pregnant and carrying a child to term is sometimes primarily
for the mothers needs.) Thus, in our recovery, we *grieve* over not having had
all our need met as infants, children and even as adults. Grieving over the
opposite, i.e., getting things that we didnt want or need, such as child 
mistreatement or abuse is also helpful. This grieving process will be 
described in chapters 11 and 12.

	Many mothers or other parent figures are mentally and emotionally
impoverished. A likely reason is that *their* needs were not met as infants,
children and/or adults. They are thus so in need that they tend to use others
in an unhealthy and inappropriate way to get those needs met. Anyone in their
immediate environment, anyone close or near to them, including infants and
children, will be unconsciously used (Miller, 1983). In order to survive,
the child who cannot develop a strong true self compensates by developing an
exaggerated false or codependant self. This is an amazing thing about infants.
They can sense that mother is needy and can eventually detect her *specific*
needs and *begin providing them for her*. Or course, this carries a major
price - the denial, stifling and stunting of the infant's own true self or
Child within.
_______________________________________________________________________________

	I thought that this would be a useful contribution here.

	Joe Jas

    re: .33
    
    I notice that this extract seems to believe that the mother is the
    ONLY person who can meet any of the child's needs, and if she
    doesn't do it, the child is screwed, either figuratively or
    literally.  But this belief that the mother is solely responsible
    for her child's mental health and emotional development may be the
    most damaging myth about womanhood and motherhood floating today. 
    
    Of course no one person can meet all of another person's needs,
    even if that one person is only a tiny baby.  But there are lots
    of other people who can help meet those needs -- father, siblings,
    uncles and aunts and cousins, friends, caretakers, teachers.
     
    I suspect that this variety of sources for having needs met is one
    of the reasons why a functional family works.  My mother couldn't
    meet my needs for achievement, mastery, challenge -- but that's
    all right, my father could.  My father couldn't meet my needs for
    emotional honesty, acceptance of feelings -- but that was all
    right too, because my grandmother and my brother could.  The more
    people the child knows, the more chance that those people will
    compensate for each other's weaknesses.  
    
    Unfortunately a mother who believes this myth feels like a failure
    if she needs help from any of these sources because society
    keeps telling her she's the only responsible person.  
    
    --bonnie

    
    re: .34
    
    Bonnie,
    
    With all due respect, the extract entered in .33 speaks of a mother,
    *OR other parent figure or close friend*.  I do not see this as
    placing all the blame on the mother.
    
    Beckie

    Bonnie R;
    Although I do not think that the extract was ment the way that you
    thought....
    I must commend you on an outstanding writting.  Very good.
    
    Thank you.   Al

    re: .35 
    
    All right, Becky, I'll grant you that the author does add the
    words that appear to make his theories apply to everybody. But if
    you look closely at the quoted passage, you get a far different
    message. For example, look at the way the last paragraph Joe
    quoted really works. 
    
> 	Many mothers or other parent figures are mentally and emotionally
> impoverished. A likely reason is that *their* needs were not met as infants,
> children and/or adults. They are thus so in need that they tend to use others
> in an unhealthy and inappropriate way to get those needs met. Anyone in their
>immediate environment, anyone close or near to them, including infants and
>children, will be unconsciously used (Miller, 1983). 
    
    Okay, we're fine so far.  Parent figures who are impoverished
    because their needs weren't met use others to get those needs met.
    Careful use of nonsexist, not specific, plural nouns and pronouns.
    All from the point of view of the impoverished parent figures, not
    from the child.  But then we go to: 
    
>    In order to survive, the child who cannot develop a strong true self
> compensates by developing an exaggerated false or codependant self. This is 
> an amazing thing about infants.  They can sense that mother is needy and can
>eventually detect her *specific* needs and *begin providing them for her*. Or
>course, this carries a major price - the denial, stifling and stunting of the
>infant's own true self or Child within. 

    Note the subtle shift from parent figure to child surviving in the
    face of manipulation.  Note the unsubstantiated claim that some
    amazing instinct allows infants to read their mothers' needs.  How
    does meeting mother's needs help the infant survive? The emphasis
    indicates, however, that this assumption is key to the author's
    theory.  And there's no mention of parent figures.  No mention of
    anything other than mother -- and mother failing her child at the
    infant stage, no less. 
    
    Perhaps this is the fault of it being a mere extract. Perhaps the
    next paragraph talks about how a baby develops a co-dependent
    personality in relation to the father, or the caretaker; on the
    other hand, maybe it doesn't. The actual, specific charges against
    the mother aren't as serious in this particular extract as the
    belief that there is only one parent figure.  Note the rest of the
    paragraph you quoted from: 
    
> 			The Unfulfilled Parent

    The title of this section is singular.  

>	Rarely does anyone find a mother, other parent figure or close friend
>who is even *capable* of providing or of helping us to meet all our needs -
>much less one who delivers them. There is usually no such person available.
>(In fact, getting pregnant and carrying a child to term is sometimes primarily
>for the mothers needs.) Thus, in our recovery, we *grieve* over not having had
>all our need met as infants, children and even as adults. 
    
    I call your attention to the phrase "There is usually no such
    person available."  It's singular.  Emphatically singular.  These
    four sentences refer three times to not having had ALL our needs
    met by ONE person.  The phrase "a mother, other parent figure or
    close friend" seems to refer to alternatives, not to supplements.
    Take over the mother's job, share the mother's blame. 
    
    Note also that the author cites the fact that women *sometimes*
    get pregnant to meet their own needs as evidence that the child
    will probably never have someone who is interested in meeting the
    child's needs.  It doesn't even follow that a woman who has a baby
    to meet her own needs is going to be incapable of meeting that
    baby's needs.  How, then, can it be evidence that the child's
    father, or aunt, or a combination, won't be able to meet those
    needs?
    
    --bonnie

    
    	Whoa-                                                          
    
    	I guess I'd better admit that this extract was not even the entire
    chapter - each of twenty factors or conditions was somewhat elaborated 
    on. So as not to take "forever" to type it all in, I tried to include
    what seemed interesting and relevent to me in the context flow of the
    author's concluding paragraphs, from the factor elaborations. The
    wording is exact, with the exception of what was in the [  ]. However,
    even when the part in question is read under the elaboration of
    "mirroring", I guess it can still be construed as "slamming moms". 
    
    	I did this with the hope that it'd support the ideas expressed
    in my previous entry and that the "hate the problem - not the person"
    idea I put forth there would let us overlook "who to blame". Blame
    is counterproductive by virtue of it's general negativity, when
    one is assessing what they can do for themselves. The author talks 
    about "anger" later in the book, but for some reason I cant find the
    issue of "blame" anywhere!
    
    	I think that "meeting mothers needs to help survive" is intuitively
    obvious, although I didnt realize that this was a possibility before
    I read about it. It makes sense in terms of a survival mechanism on the
    part of the child.
    
    	Joe Jas

    Joe, I didn't mean to sound like I was blaming you for posting the
    extract.  As far as it goes, it sounds like an interesting,
    helpful book. It was also a clear extract -- it sounds like you
    really understood what was going on in the book.  Also, the
    problem I was talking about is not a part of what the author
    explicitly advocates, but rather what he assumes underneath. 
    
    But the author is missing one whole aspect of the problem, it
    seems to me -- a societal factor that contributes to raising the
    emotionally impoverished adults he's talking about and to the
    dysfunctional family's rule that "thou shalt not speak, thou shalt
    not feel." 
    
    A mother who has been taught that it's entirely her job to meet
    ALL the needs of every one of her children, no matter how
    different those children are, feelings of inadequacy are likely to
    compound any other problems she has.  If she's in an abusive
    situation, a drinking situation, etc., she's going to be much more
    likely to blame herself.  She'll think, "If I was a better mother,
    he wouldn't be doing this, would he?  If I was a better mother, I
    could protect my children, couldn't I?"
    
    And then she can't ask for help because she's afraid to have
    anybody else know how bad a mother she really is. 
    
    One can't blame society for all of everybody's problems, but
    it's not fair to make individuals assume total responsibility
    for social factors over which they have no control, either.
     
    --bonnie

    Also refer to trucks::euro_woman where a conversation on
    this topic is getting started.
    
    Bonnie

    I give people a lot of credit for entering their stories here. 
    You have a lot of courage.
    
    This note has given me the courage to say that, as a child, I was
    sexually abused, too.  Not by anyone in my family, but by people
    who were certainly old enough to know better.  NO ONE in my family
    knows this about me;  I have only told a counsellor and my fiance,
    and now this conference.  I mention it here because of what I learned.
    What happens to you as a child IS NOT YOUR FAULT.  Nobody asks for
    this, believe me.  If this has happened to you, you are not dirty,
    or low, or anything else.  You have been a victim, and that is all.
    
    I would hate to think of anyone wasting as many years as I did,
    feeling such low self-esteem.
    
    Get help, and believe in yourself.  Learn about the past;  look
    at it, get your anger out, forgive yourself, and go on.
    
    Jane

    
    Re .41
    
    I would second what Jane says.  I've started a discussion on the
    topic in the European Woman conference, as Bonnie mentioned in an
    earlier note.
    
    I was also sexually abused as a teenager, and would say it is possible
    to heal the emotional wounds, provided you can be brave enough to
    go for help.
    
    Val

    	I just completed reading the base note and most of the replies.
    
    	I am not sure how I feel.  I have had my own problem dealing
    with sexual abuse and it is on one hand an eye opener and on the
    other heart breaking.
    
    	I did not know so many have been abused.  I did not know that
    I was reacting to my own abuse in my own relationships.  If it
    is of any value, reading this has helped to open my eyes, not just
    to my own problem, but the problem of the entire family.  
    
    	The fear, the blame, the angry, the crime hurts everyone
    involved.
    
    	I can only say don't blame yourself, don't blame your parent,
    don't even blame the individual who did the crime.  Perhaps there
    is something good that can come from it, a learning, a sharing,
    something, I don't know.
    
    Veronica.
    
    

    anouther good book is " My Father's House " I don't recal the author
    it's in hard back because it is a new release and is around 15.00.
    My mothers father rapped all his daughters except one (she was
    prottected by my mother and an Ant, she was allso the yuongest).
    my grandmother might have known we don't no she was always frail and
    ill. no one has ever spoke of it but to say my grandfather thought
    it was his God given right to be first in each of his daughters
    lives.  he was a verry sick man.  all of the granchildren were worned
    never to be alone with him or even set on his lap.  none of my ants
    ofr my mother have ever saught help.  my mother is 57 now and she
    feels it is to late, she has eight children, two failled mariges
    and some verry confused and mixed up children.  I know allot of
    people who have been threw what you have been threw I know some
    children that are still going threw it that our society has failed
    to help and or legal system have turned there back on.  It is stealling
    the inasents from some one that can never be returned, it shatters
    a world of a child in ways that we as adults can no longer visualize,
    older people espesily are parents are almost Gods to children, and
    when these Gods fail them it set the stage for life. I send you
    hugs, I am sharring tears with you as I am sure many others are.
     
    Let your voice be hered, let society and the legal system know it
    is not the man who is paaing threw town or that no one knows that
    is rapping the inacents of our children but the man that looks like
    every other and may even be your nebour or your son or your father.
    If there is silance there will be no stopping them and no healing
    for there victims.
    
    

    there is a Incest Survivors Anonymous in the Mass area and a news
    letter, for more information contact CSSE::HALL  I do not know of
    any thing in the sout except a Womens Center in Atlanta, I'm sure
    there are other places.

The following text is being entered anonymously for a member of the
    community.
    
    Bonnie J Reinke
    comoderator



**************************************************************************
My parents discovered that my father was going to die 6 months before he had
his stroke. I was 11 then. Living in poverty, with 6 children on her hands, my
mother, who, along with my father,  up till now had been a prominent civil
rights activist in the community,  panicked upon hearing the news,  and started
going out every night, coming home late at night drunk. 

Three months after my father's death, around my 12th birthday, my mothers new
boyfriend moved in. He was 15 years her junior.  Together, they partied all
night long on the insurance money from my father's death. We kids cared for one
another. We didn't accept that this invader now lived in our house, but we soon
found that our feelings didn't matter. 

It didn't take long to discover that this new man was an alcoholic. He didn't
work and lived off of my mother. He also was a woman beater. He would humiliate
my mother in front of their new drunken bar friends and then beat her when the
night was over. We kids usually fell asleep listening to the screams and moans
of my mother begging him to stop beating her up. When we tried to offer
assistance, she would get angry at us and tell us to mind our own business.
Sometimes we would call the police, but when they arrived, she would tell them
to go away, there was nothing wrong. I remember the times he threw her down the
stairs, threw plates at her (and hit her), gave her two black eyes, a broken
nose, a broken leg, a broken arm,.... 

One night, I can remember through her tears she pleaded with him as he beat
her, "Please stop, I love you more than I love my children." How could my own
mother love someone that was going to eventually kill her more than she loved
me? I  cooked, babysat, excelled at school, and did everything else I thought
were the proper things to do. (I didn't know since no adult was around who
cared enough to correct me). 

Soon, he started sneaking into my room. He would start kissing my body and
rubbing his thing against me. He would start fondling my body parts and I would
just lay there and let him do it. I reasoned that my mother would probably kick
me out of the house if she found out that her man was after me, and I had no
where to go. I told my older brother, but he just shrugged it off. I think he
felt it was my fault. He would bring himself to orgasm (or close to it) while
fondling me with his hands and mouth. 

After a year or so, he stopped. I think he was honestly surprised to see
how unresponsive I was. It was obvious that he wanted to go further (
penetration), but I always stared at him with such a blank expression, that
I think he realized that would really push me over the edge.

They stayed together for 13 years. For about ten years since that happened,
I never thought about it. I never realized it was rape. Rape, back in those
days was considered penetration. Now I know it was rape. And I know that
it has affected me severely. But, compounded with all of the other horrible
things this man brought into my life, it was just another bad memory to
add to the list.



  � Posted: 21-OCT-1988 15:20 �
  � To:     WMOIS::B_REINKE �

    Does anyone know the actual figures of how many children are molested
    annually in the U.S.?  During a recent discussion with my husband
    on this topic, I discovered I have no idea what kind of numbers
    I was talking about.
    
    Thanks in advance-
    Barb

Some studies so far indicate about 25% of all female children have been 
molested, but I don't know what that translates into in terms of numbers 
of thousands, for example.

    There have been quite a number of programs on television lately
    that have depicted the father being accused as the victim. I am
    concerned because they do not point out that 98% of the people accused
    are guilty and if they do not pursue to protect the 2 to 3% that
    are not guilty the child is the loser. Our society still wishes
    to believe that fathers and grandfathers do not do this and if some
    one was doing this they would be a certain type or look a certain
    way. In Mississippi the judge has stated on two cases that he knows
    these men wouldn't do this, they come from good families, they hunt
    and fish, he's known them since they wee young, and it just can't
    be. When people come forward and finally talk about what has happened
    to them it helps society to understand more and more that it is
    true and it can be any one. Hopefully someone will open the eyes
    of our judicial systems and children someday may even have rights.

    re: .51
    
    This is the way a seminar at our daughter's school taught us
    to handle it after an incident a couple of years ago:
    
    Teach them that they don't have to let anyone touch them in
    a way they don't like.  ANYONE.  
    
    Explain that there's good touch, like the hugs you share at
    bedtime, and bad touch that makes them feel uncomfortable or
    scared or dirty.  If it's not a good touch, the child should pull
    away and come tell you.  Apparently a good deal of molestation
    starts with a familiar person pushing the limits of what the child
    will allow, and once the child has allowed it, guilt keeps him or
    her from protesting later -- they just hope it will stop.  They
    often think it's their fault, so they can't tell anybody for fear
    of being punished.  And they've been taught to obey adults and
    fear their power, so if an adult they're supposed to obey says
    "Don't tell or I'll hurt your Mommy and Daddy," they believe him. 
    
    So you have to teach your children that they have the right
    to set the limits over who touches their body, and if someone
    touches them in a way they don't like, to tell you.  They need
    to know you'll believe them.  

    One of the things the seminar mentioned was that you have to stop
    making the children kiss Aunt Mary or hug Uncle Ben if they don't
    want to. This is an important way to reinforce the child's right
    to reject unwanted touch.  Politeness does not have to involve
    display of affection, and if you make the children hug someone
    they don't like, you're undermining their ability to make the
    distinction between good and bad. 
    
    The reason it's so important to teach them they have the right to
    set limits with family members is that any danger to your
    daughters is most likely to stem from a family member or friend.
    I know this is shocking, but only a tiny percentage of sexual acts
    come from strangers luring your child with candy.  
    
    --bonnie
    
    p.s. Almost forgot -- the seminar was taught by the school
    counsellor and someone from the Nashua Police Department. 
    

    re: .51 
    
    A difficult question, Bob, but if I'm correctly interpreting 
    the data I've come across in the last couple of years, I think
    there is at least some good news for you.  Catherine's figure
    (.49 ?) of 25% is consistent with what I've heard and I must
    admit, when I try to think of it in human terms. . .I don't 
    know what to say other than even if the figure were half as
    high, the personal and societal implications are, to me,
    terrifying.
    
    From the sound of your reply, you have a loving, supportive family
    and, if I understand the patterns the statistics to date seem to
    be showing, that's a *big* plus.  It appears that a great deal
    of molestation is at the hands of a family member; what I've seen
    in the last few years suggests to me that intra-family abuse
    constitutes a majority of the cases.  If this is so, then a strong,
    loving family unit will reduce the odds.  A caveat here: I've 
    seen and heard evidence to suggest that a significant amount
    of intra-family molestation happens outside the immediate (mother,
    father, sisters, brothers) family unit; abuse by cousins, uncles,
    and aunts appears to be considerable.
    
    I'd be astonished if there were any "easy" answer to your question:
    
    � What can we do to minimize the possibility of this happening?
    �
    � I have to admit I have difficulty balancing the comfort of my children
    � being innocent with informing them enough to protect them.
    
    I'll go way out on a limb here (I've chosen not to be a parent)
    and guess that the main line of defense would have to be education:
    
     o	that most people are pretty good, but that some people have
    	problems which lead them to do some things that are hurtful
    	and this includes certain kinds of touching (I know that
    	there are resources to help parents talk about this with kids
    	of different ages but I'm at a loss to give you a pointer at
    	the moment. . .)
    
     o	that the child is loved and safe at home, and when something's
    	happening that doesn't "feel right" to the child, (s)he will
    	gain safety and "rightness" by stopping action (as best (s)he
    	can) and coming to you and telling you about it.  No matter
    	what happens, you'll always be there to love and protect and
    	nothing anyone does will ever change that.  Particularly the
    	child should know that when someone else says "If you don't
    	do _________, I'll tell your parents how bad you are. . ."
    	that this is a lie, and that, in fact, one reason you're around
    	is to help protect your child from people who are trying to
    	do such hurtful things.
    
    Steve
    
    
    

    re: last few
    
    As a mother who has (is) going through this with her own
    child, a few thoughts.
    
    First, very young children don't know the difference between
    "good" and "bad" touches.  So if your child mentions anything
    that sounds suspicious or seems withdrawn emotionally or
    physically either try to get them to talk or take them to
    a professional.
    
    Second, if it turns out that the perpetrator is someone
    in the family do whatever it takes to protect the child.
    That child is an innocent and can do very little to protect
    him/herself.  It is the parent's responsibility to protect
    that child.  In my case there were a lot of toes that had
    to be stepped on and lives were disrupted.  However, these
    things had to be done in order to protect my child.
    
    Third, you may never know who did the molesting or to what
    extent.  This is something you might have to accept.  Many
    people may have to be phased out of your child's life, 
    babysitters, playmates, friends of the family, until you're
    sure.  Don't feel guilty!!  You are protecting your child
    and that is of primary importance.
    
    Nanci
    

    The figures I have is that 1 in 3 girls is molested BY SOMEONE
    SHE KNOWS by the age of 13.  1 in 10 boys is molested BY SOMEONE
    HE KNOWS by the age of 13.
    
    As for prevention, education is important, but there are some people
    to be particularly suspicious of.  Namely, people who have an
    unwarranted interest in children's activities, such as adults who
    are scout leaders and have no children involved.  Also, friends,
    neighbors, who show an abnormal interest in the child.  All such
    people are *not* child molesters, but be particularly careful of
    them.  The majority of perpetrators live in the same house as the
    victim - father, stepfather, brother, grandfather, etc.  Also, remember
    that the perpetrator *can* be a woman.  It is rather unusual, but
    don't discount the possibility if you are suspicious.  A clue is
    a sudden change in the child's behavior, especially an attitude
    toward a given person.  It can be anything from general withdrawal,
    to a graphic explanation, to avoiding a relative or friend that
    they were formerly close to, giving only an explanation like "I
    don't like Uncle Harry any more."
    
    I agree with the previous noters - tell them to tell you if someone
    touches them in a way they don't feel comfortable with, reinforce
    their right to say no to something they don't like, and reassure
    them that no matter what happens, you'll still love them and will
    help them.
    
    Elizabeth

    RE:.55 (sort of) and in general
    
    Actually, the solution *I'd* like to see is for the "Uncle Harry"'s
    of the world to realize that a)children are not their property
    b)women are not property c)female children are especially not property.
    
    I realize that the kids have to be trained, why, I was told in 1950
    by my folks that I shouldn't take rides from strangers, etc. And
    I suppose that since most abusers are known to the child, they need
    to be taught about this stuff. But still....
    
    A figure like the ones we've seen here indicates, not random incidents
    by "strangers", but an INSTITUTIONAL Philosophy in the society.
    That's *real* sick, and I think *that*'s the thing that needs to
    be addressed. Sure wish I knew how.
    
    --DE
    

    re: .56
       
    RE: > a)children are not their property
    	> b)women are not property c)female children are especially
    	> not property.   
                          
    I should like to add, d)men are not property e)male children are
    espcially not property.
    
    IMHO
    jim
    

    I agree though.  All children are special and all children are
    vulnerable.  No child should have to go through such a thing, boy
    or girl.  The subject of child abuse enrages me.
    Mary

    The subject of child abuse enrages me too.  But the subject of how
    our laws and courts [don't] deal with it enrages me far more.
    
    							Pat

                                                        
    re the last few..
    I think the call for "special" emphasis on how female children are
    not property has to do with current statistics which suggest that
    females are much more likely than males to be victimized.
    
    I think the current campaigns- that are teaching children that it's
    ok to say "no!" to any kind of touching that seems wrong- are really
    on the right track.  I think teaching children to be cautious around
    strangers is still wise, but we also need to teach them that some
    behaviors are wrong - no matter who engages in them.
                                                            
    Justine

    I too, am enraged by the people who abuse children, and the court
    system for abusing them further while doing little or nothing to
    the offender.
    
    I agree with Justine, the emphasis on females are that female children
    are more likely to be sexually abused than male children.  There
    are probably several reasons for this, including the WASP attitude
    that both women and children are inferior, therefore, female children
    are most inferior, therefore it's allright to use and abuse them.  It is
    inherent in this society that unmarried women are property of their
    father.  For details, look at a traditional wedding where the father
    gives away the bride, implying that she belongs to him.  It's even
    biblical.  Look at the story of Lot and his daughters.  Another
    reason is that most offenders are heterosexual men.  Girls are going
    to be more appealing to them, although many abusers of boys are
    heterosexual with their sexuality involving adults.
    
    But I agree that children, girls or boys, are not the property of
    anyone, have a right to know that they can say no to any touching
    that seems wrong to them, and will be protected if abuse occurs.
    
    Elizabeth

    It is worth mentioning from an historical point of view that
    in Roman times the  father did indeed own his wife and children.
    Until this century laws derived from that Roman law still
    existed in many western countries including the US of A.
    
    Bonnie

    Just heard on NPR today:-
    
    In England a judge let a confessed child molester get free because
    he believes that his wife was pregnant and thus was not that sexually
    active.  According to the Judge, this fact was considered in letting
    the husband get away with molesting his child as that was "the only
    way to let out his sexual frustrations."   The judge also commented
    that he is aware that his ruling will be extremely controversial
    but he is going to stand by his ruling.
    
    It is unfortunate that judges like him or the one from Masschusettes
    are not alone in treating women as non human-being.
    
- Vikas

    <--(.64)       
    
�     There are plenty of potential 'causes' that are more plausible,
�     among them higher adoption rates of females to lower income families.
    
    
    Mike, it's now well-accepted that sexual abuse and molestation is not
    limited to "lower-income families".  The only real difference across
    socioeconomic levels is that higher-income families have more resources
    to hide what's going on.  And they also benefit from the social "halo
    effect" that accrues to high-status people.
    
    						=maggie

    I agree with Mike (.64) that Elizabeth's (.62) "cause" was an injustice
    to many of us, and that it was, indeed, off track.
    
    A more widely held "cause" of the predominance of girls being molested,
    rather than boys, is that far and away most molesters are men/boys.
    And most men/boys are heterosexual.  As molesting is a sexual
    maladaptation, not an act of violence (as in rape), the victims
    will be of the gender of sexual preference - Female.
            
    Does anyone have any information of the ratio of girls to boys that
    are molested by Women/Girls?
                  
    Thanks,   Jack

    RE: .67
    
    Molesting *is* an act of violence. Most molesters are indeed male,
    and most are heterosexual. Thus, MOST of the children molested -
    both boys and girls - are molested by heterosexual males.
    
    Sexual abuse is *is* IS and act of violence, and an act of power.
    It has nothing to do with sexual attraction, preference, or
    what-have-you.
    
    --DE
    

    re: .62
    
    I agree with your rage, Elizabeth and I believe that the research
    to date has begun to show that more female children *are* abuse 
    victims than male.  I'm a little less comfortable with the
    notion of the "court system" as an abuser that does "little
    or nothing to the offender", but I suspect that a semantic
    difference is at the heart of this.
    
    Specifically, if one were to fault "the legal system", which 
    encompasses the legislative process, I'd be inclined to agree 
    more readily.  My experiences tell me that lots of judges would 
    rule differently on many cases were they not bound by the laws.  
    To be sure, their role as interpreter of the law leaves them some 
    latitude, but often they must rule from a "hands-tied" position.
    
    Then too, I'm not sure just what we *should* do with these offenders
    in light of strong evidence that most of these people started out
    as abuse victims; the way things stand right now, the child-victims
    who evoke our tears today are very likely to be the abusers of
    tomorrow who will evoke our rage.  I think we somehow need to break
    the cycle - get massive, on-going help to abused children so that
    they don't become tomorrow's abusers; and my preference would be
    the same for the abuser.  As enraged as that individual makes me,
    I believe that simple punishment (i.e. prison) is a mistake, at
    best, a time bomb waiting to re-explode.  I wish I could believe
    that the voting public was ready to shell out the kind of money it
    will take to break this abuse-abuser cycle; realistically (and
    sadly) I don't believe this to be the case.
    
    � There are probably several reasons for this, including the WASP 
    � attitude that both women and children are inferior, therefore, 
    � female children are most inferior, therefore it's allright to use 
    � and abuse them.

    I have difficulty with this piece of your reply, more for how
    it's presented than what it says - I agree that some (many, perhaps
    most) WASPs carry those attitudes, but not all of them.  If I
    take issue with a male noter's "blanket generalizing" as I have
    sometimes, fairness dictates that I do the same now.  Also, one
    trend the research seems to be showing is that no one particular
    group has a lock on abuse; personal experience confirms for me
    that people from other ethnic or socio-economic groups abuse
    children as well.  By singling out one factor, your reply begins
    to appear "slanted" to me.
    
    
    � But I agree that children, girls or boys, are not the property of
    � anyone, have a right to know that they can say no to any touching
    � that seems wrong to them, and will be protected if abuse occurs.
    
    Amen.
    
    Steve
    

    re: 66
    
    Maggie,
    
    Thanks for pointing out that sexual abuse isn't a lower income family
    issue...the follow-up to the attitude about adoptions happening
    in lower income families is that that statement is ridculous.
    
    In today's world, adoption requires money, sometimes upwards of
    10 grand.  Maybe more.
    
    In prior years, babies were placed in 'upwardly mobile' homes or
    with parents who already had some bucks put away.

    Re .69
    
    What I meant by the court system as abuser is a number of things. The
    laws, the way proof must be handled, the way the defense lawyer treats
    the child witness (who may be the *only* witness in many/most cases),
    may be as traumatic for a young child as the abuse itself was.  If the
    abuser is acquitted, the child may be in more danger than he/she was
    before reporting the crime.  In many cases the abuser, if convicted
    gets a very light sentence of only a few months.  In many of these
    cases the judge lets the guy off with things like "the wife was
    pregnant at the time, the man had no other sexual outlets (says
    who???), and OF COURSE turned to his 5 year old daughter" as if this
    all excuses raping a 5 year old girl.  Some of this is the legislative
    system which dictates how courts are run, what kind of sentences to
    allow, and what constitutes proof, some of it lies within the judge
    (see above), others of it are within society (jury letting him off).
    Remember, the chances of getting a good sentence are so low and
    additional trauma to the child so high that many parents of these
    victims are encouraged to not press charges.  I have known a number
    of adult victims and parents of recent child victims, NONE of whom
    have gotten a successful conviction.
    
    I see your reasoning about what to do with the offender.  My heart
    wants to turn them over to a group of victims who are now over 50
    and turn them loose on the guy.  It's too bad that he was a victim
    himself, but all victims do not grow up to be abusers.  There is
    something else going on here than mere cause and effect.  If you
    grew up poor, then went out stealing large sums of money they are
    not going to excuse you because you grew up poor.  The best solution
    I can offer is more education to the public that there is no shame
    in going for help with these problems, and to make such help readily
    available. 
    
    To my other statement that upsets you, in two cases I've known two
    adult victims who confronted their abuser, to the effect of "A man has
    a RIGHT to treat his children any way he wants!"  There are other
    reasons people may abuse their children in this way, but this
    particular one *really* makes me sick.  There are other reasons, but
    that attitude points to a sick set of values within a subset of
    society.  It does indeed cross all socio-economic lines, the wealthy
    are better able to cover it up, and the educated know they are supposed
    to. 
    
    Elizabeth

    re: .71
    
    Good points, all, Elizabeth; with that definition of the "court
    system" I have no qualms (and, in truth, a beef or two of my
    own. . .).
    
    Further, I agree (in a very visceral way) that the "slave owner"
    attitude is particularly disagreeable; my only discomfort was the
    surface *appearance* that this was only a WASP trait - careful 
    reading yields that this isn't the case, something I knew at the
    time.  In retrospect, I'd reword my reply to the effect of "I think 
    some of the disagreement which followed .62 may come from an
    appearance of bias. . ."  
    
    In a perverse kind of way, I sort of wish it were confined to that 
    (or *any* single) group; unfortunately, it appears to be an equal 
    opportunity atrocity.  Also, to the extent that WASPs have been
    a dominating and/or influencing agent in this society, I'd agree
    that the fostering of the "slave owner" attitude may, at least
    historically" belong them more than other groups.
    
    Steve               
    
    P.S.  Gah!  This is kind of a depressing topic for a Friday afternoon;
    	  I hope I can find a couple more "lite" topics before logging
     	  out. . .

    RE: .68 (D. Evans) - Thank you for responding to my questions. 
    I have some questions about your response, however, that I would
    like to see posted - so that other members of the noting community,
    as well as myself, may be better informed.
    
    .67>            -< ANyone got the stats on this? 95%, I think. >-

    I assume that your title is a response to my question of what percent
    of the children molested by Women are male.  Is that true? 
    
    .67> Molesting *is* an act of violence. Most molesters are indeed male,
    .67> and most are heterosexual. Thus, MOST of the children molested -
    .67> both boys and girls - are molested by heterosexual males.
         
    This statement seems to contradict the one made below, i.e.
    .67> It has nothing to do with sexual attraction, preference, or
    .67> what-have-you.

    The statements made in your response did not make it clear (i.e.
    that molestation is an act of violence) whether this was your opinion,
    or psychological fact.  I have to plead ignorance, not yet having
    had Abnormal Psych.  The reason why I ask these questions is twofold
    - First, I am trying to deal with my recent knowledge of the
    molestation of a person very close to me by a close "family friend."
    Second, I am studying Psychological Counseling, and may be called
    upon to counsel either the Victims or the Perpetrators.
    
    Again, thank you for your response.
    
    Jack
    

    RE: .73
    
    Jack, I'm not sure why you say my statements are contradictory.
    I re-read my note, and I don't see it.
    
    I believe the statistic is: 95% of molested children are molested
    by a heterosexual male. That means both boys are girls are molested
    by men. (Hence, the lack of connection to sexual or affectional
    preference)
    
    I believe molestation to be an act of "power" , if you will. It
    is certainly violence. Unfortunately, many men seem to have made
    a connection in their minds between sex and power, and it gets
    mixed up in violent situations. (I've personally seen confrontations
    in which men said, to show power, dominance, or whatever..."Oh YEAH??!
    Well, ____ my ____!!!" (a sexual act) )
    
    I don't have the statistics on this, so I hope maybe someone who
    *does* have them can come to the rescue here.
    
    There might also be an agency or someone to whom you can talk in
    order to get more information to help you with the situation you've
    encountered.
    
    --DE (Dawn)
    

    Jack,

Dawn is absolutely right.  OVER 95% of all child molestation is done by
heterosexual males, and it has nothing to do with sexual orientation.
Sexual orientation is the sex of the adults of one's species that one is
attracted to.  A man may be attracted to adult women while still molesting
little boys.  

What's more, this is not an issue of consenting adults, who willfully engage
in the behaviour.  This is an act of power done TO children.  Quite often
the child does not vocalize her/his feelings against this because the child
is confused (has been taught to trust this person doing this bad thing...)
or is fearful.

There are many good books on the subject.  I hope you read several of
them before you try to counsel anyone on this.  I'm really glad that you
are asking questions so that you can learn.  You may want to read more first,
though, as this is a VERY sensitive topic.

       In sisterhood,

               Carol

    Mike,
    
    You are right - sexual molestation does not necessarily involve
    having sex with the child.
    
    Other inappropriate sexual behaviors involving children are also
    sexual abuse, such as having sex in front of a child, inappropriate
    sexual talk to the child, asking the child to pose nude (either
    to look at or for pictures), bathing the child at too late an age
    (Anyone seen the movie _Nuts_?), and of course, fondling either
    of the child by the adult or of the adult by the child is certainly
    inappropriate.
    
    As for your direct question, I would say that yes, patting a child
    on the rear end could be sexual molestation, rubbing the child's
    shoulders probably would not be.  I say probably because a lot of
    it depends on circumstance.  Anything, if done in a sexual way,
    could be viewed as sexual abuse when done to a child.  For example,
    taking your rubbing the shoulders example, you can see the difference
    between patting a guy on the team's shoulder after a good play,
    rubbing a friend's sore shoulder muscles, and stroking your SO's
    shoulders while in bed.  The latter is a low-key sexual act, the
    first two in this example are not.          
    
    Elizabeth

    Mike,
    
    Correct me if I'm wrong.  The concern that I hear you expressing
    here is that these statistics may be biased because social attitudes
    may carry with them an automatic suspicion of men in general.  
    
    I don't know where the stats came from but I can reassure you
    as to the procedures in such cases.  In general, the victim
    will be interviewed by a social worker at the Department of
    Social Services on video camera.  They will try to get the child
    to draw a picture of various parts of the anatomy, tell what 
    happened (without prompting), and then show the interviewer
    what happened using anatomically correct dolls.  The all of the
    members of the family members and friends are interviewed by
    DSS.  Then there's usually a psychological evaluation done on the
    victim including a one on one interview with a psychiatrist plus
    extensive testing, plus interactive sessions between the victim
    and the parents and/or family members and possibly the perpetrator.
    (In my daughter's case they even interviewed her teacher at pre-
    school to check out behavioral changes.)
    
    At this time the case is submitted to the District Attorney who
    will determine whether the state has sufficient evidence to try
    the case.  If so, a preliminary hearing is set before a judge,
    sans jury.  This is the stage we're at now so I'm not sure what
    will happen next.
    
    In any case, the state is very thourough about gathering enough
    evidence to make sure there is a case.  I realize there have been
    cases where the perpetrator was found innocent.  However, they are
    very careful about gathering sufficient evidence before trying the
    case.
    
    Now, I don't know if the statistics sighted were gathered from the
    Department of Social Services (in which many cases do not go to
    trial because of lack of evidence) or from the District Attorney's
    offices (in which case the statistics would be much more accurate).
    This may account for the discrepancy.
    
    I have stayed out of this topic as much as possible because I'm
    going through it.  I felt my viewpoint might be too biased or
    emotional.  However, I do have first hand experience of how things
    work and this might be useful to some of you.
    
    Nanci

    re: .80
    
    Thanks for an inside view and the courage to speak openly and
    clearly about an issue that is surely very difficult for you.
    
    Steve
    

    I would guess that's at least possible, Mike, and from what I know of
    my own reactions (I'd have a tough time recognising it if unprepared),
    even probable.  
    
    I think the "over 95%" figure that I've seen is "of reported cases"
    which of course is very different to "of all cases", though most
    professionals still are pretty adamant that whether it's 80% or 95% the
    vast majority of all child abuse is committed by heterosexual men. This
    is in line with the general observation in psychology that practically
    any pathology involving sexualised behavior is far more prevalent in
    men than in women (tho whether that's nature or nurture is, as usual,
    unclear).
    
    						=maggie 

    RE: .82
    
    Mike,
    
    Yes, I think there are some cases of molestation done by
    women that go unreported because society tends to be more
    lenient in the way it looks at women expressing themselves
    physically to their children.  However, I think that there
    are just as many unreported cases having to do with fathers.
    I think that, regardless of gender, society expects to see
    parents being physical with their children.  Society also
    has a tendancy to sweep under the rug anything that might be
    unacceptable and, therefore, uncomfortable.  It's so much
    easier not to get involved.  If you got involved you might
    have to, God forbid, _do_ something.  So we, as a society,
    choose to not see these situations regardless of the sex
    of the perpetrator.
    
    Is this what you were looking for?
    
    Nanci

    re: "all cases" versus "all reported cases"
    
    Logically speaking, it would *have* to be "all reported cases".
    After all, if the cases are not reported, how the hell can we
    know *any*thing concerning them?
    
    --- jerry

    There actually are a lot of cases, Jerry, where some professional
    suspects abuse based (e.g.) on the kid's changed behavior ---or even
    statements--- but which never find their way into the reporting system
    from which the stats are drawn.  I would guess perhaps a majority of
    the abuse by women falls into the unreported category. 
    
    						=maggie 

    There are *many* cases involving perpetrators of both sexes that
    are never reported to anyone in the criminal justice system.
    
    The child may have been threatened, bullied, or coerced into believing
    it's *their* fault, *they* will be punished, or someone they love will
    be hurt if they tell, or if they did tell weren't believed.  So, they
    don't tell.  Some of these people start telling people what happened to
    them when they are adults - after the proof is long gone, the
    perpetrator may have left the person's life, or even died.  Most of
    these cases are unprosecutable, yet they should be counted in the
    statistics, even though it may have happened 20, 30, 40, 50 years
    ago.
    
    Elizabeth

    You're quite right, Elisabeth, and I should have made that more
    clear.
    
    Some fairly conservative professionals have estimated (as I think
    someone here has already pointed out) that perhaps 6 or 7 out of every
    10 cases (!) go unreported.  If we presume that they parallel the cases
    that _are_ reported, these too range anywhere from a single instance of
    casual fondling to repeated, systematised gang rape by relatives and
    others in the family social circle.
                           
    						=maggie

    Just heard on the radio this morning that a book is being published
    about male sexual abuse cases.  Didn't catch the title.  One such
    victim was interviewed.  He made the point that, 'Men are not supposed
    to be victims.  A man who is victimized is seen as gay, or as a
    woman; wimpy, insignificant,...<a couple of other choice adjectives>.'
    I thought that that statement was as telling as the fact that men
    are reluctant to report childhood sexual abuse.
    	Linda

    RE: .90
    
    The same "article" interviewed the counselor who authored the book.
    He said he thought when all the men who were abused as kids began
    to deal with the issue, and the "dust settled", the numbers for
    abused male and female children would be comparable. Which is to
    say (quoting him) that about ONE-THIRD of ALL CHILDREN are sexually
    abused. 
    
    This absolutely connects so much for me in the other current issues
    we are discussing. Abortion rights  -  care about 'em before they're
    born. Afterward....who cares?  And  the US as a "moral and ethical
    leader". For crying out loud. 
    
    --DE
    

    Author is probably Mike Lew, a Boston area counselor.

    Re .90 (Linda)
    
    >A man who is victimized is seen as gay, or as a
    >woman; wimpy, insignificant,...<a couple of other choice adjectives>.'
    >I thought that that statement was as telling as the fact that men
    >are reluctant to report childhood sexual abuse.
    
    Another way of looking at this is that a woman (or girl) who is
    abused also invited it, is insignificant, and deserved it anyway.
    I agree that that's how male victims are looked upon, and if you
    look at it it is a sad commentary on how women are viewed.  This
    is, of course, backed up by the way that rape and sometimes sexual
    abuse of children is treated by the courts - I recall one case recently
    of a judge deciding that a 5 year old girl had acted "seductively",
    thus it was her fault.
    
    This is just more "blame the victim, then say that they are wimpy,
    insignificnt people, or (worse) A WOMAN!"
    
    Elizabeth

<-- 	there is the implication that for women, it is basically 
	"natural" to be treated this way, whereas for a man to be 
	treated "like a woman" is about the worst thing that could
	happen to him.  He suffers a real degradation of status,
	while a woman is already of low status "naturally".

Too often the proof of sexual molestation traumatizes the victims again and 
again.

Monday on the tv program Evening Magazine it was presented that Elizabeth
Morgan has been imprisoned for the past 18 months because she went against
a court order to present her daughter (she appeared to be about four years
old in the videotapes) to the father, for unsupervised visits, the man that 
she has accused of sexually molesting the child.

The mother presented videotapes of the child describing the incidents and
crying and refusing to visit her father.  The mother also presented the
results of 18 visits with a child psychologist stating that the child
was hysterical, depressed and fearful of her father.  This evidence was
deemed inadmissable.

The father says that it is untrue and a ruse to keep his daughter from him.

His daughter from a previous marriage presently does not have visitation
rights by reason of sexual molestation of the child.

Elizabeth Morgan is being required by the court to turn over her injured child
to the person who injured her in the first place.

It looks like the child is being traumatized by 1) her father, 2) the 
court, and 3) by being apart from her mother.

It looks like the mother is being traumatized by 1) her husband, 2) the
court, and 3) by being apart from her child.

The questions arises why is it necessary for children to be protected from
the decisions of the court.  If there is any question from the videotapes
that the child has been harmed, why is the court unable to protect her?

			???

Is there such a thing as witness protection? 

RE: .-1
  >>that the child has been harmed, why is the court unable to protect her? 

Change the word "unable" to "unwilling."
    
    							Pat

    re.95
    
    In many cases the courts have set up such strict guidlines
    regarding admissible evidence that it's hard to use _anything_.
    In Colorado, for instance, only the first or second interview
    of the victim is admissible as evidence.  If neither interview
    (by whomever) gets taped then you're out of luck.  In my
    daughter's case the first interview was conducted by a therapist
    who reported the case to Social Services.  The next interview
    was with a man at Social Services.  Unfortunately my daughter
    was (understandably) reticent around all men at the time.
    She refused to talk to him, but afterwards talked to me.  I
    called them back the next day and insisted that they re-interview
    her with a woman interviewer.  They did, she talked but it still
    wasn't admissible as evidence.  They finally got a written report
    from the therapist and are basing the case on that interview
    plus subsequent psychological evaluations.  They told me that
    the reason they're so strict is that they don't want to take the
    chance that the child was coached or led in the interview.
    
    Nanci

<    They told me that
<    the reason they're so strict is that they don't want to take the
<    chance that the child was coached or led in the interview.
    
This makes me very angry.  I understand how difficult it would be to be
falsely accused of child molestation, but you have to take the child into
consideration FIRST.  If the child is saying that they do not want to see
the person, then KEEP THEM FROM SEEING THE PERSON.  You can undo a mistake
made on that side a LOT easier than if it was made the other way around!

                Carol

    I've been told that there is a members only conference
    for survivors of sexual abuse and incest.  But I can't find
    out where it is.  Anyone able to help??
    

There is a conference whose nominal agenda is support of adult children of
alcoholics.  It is possible that their agenda may include abuse survivors as
well.  (I'm not a member, so I can't say for sure.)  In any event, contact
HPTS::JOVAN for membership info.  Even if that isn't the right place to be,
it may well be that some conference member can point you to it.  (Given the
nature of the subject, it wouldn't surprise me if its existence were some-
what hidden.)

Good luck and best wishes.

						--Q (Dick Wagman)

    I've sent mail to the person you've mentioned and she did supply
    some help.  I'm still waiting to hear from someone that I sent mail
    to.  I can understand why it might be hidden.  But it's frustrating
    when you have to hear about it from a professional outside of digital
    and then can't find any hint of its existence.  Thanks for trying
    to help.

    I've sent your request to someone who may be able to help.
    
    						=maggie

    Hi.
    
    I'm the someone who may be able to help (at least one of them!). I
    co-lead weekend workshops for survivors of sexual abuse, and I am a
    survivor myself.  About a year ago, I looked into starting a members
    only conference on this subject.  I spoke with a few people from EAP
    about it, and was strongly advised against using a non-face-to-face
    medium for this kind of work.  EAP suggested starting a resources
    forum on this subject if we wanted to start a notes file for survivors.
    
    I did not do that, because I don't know how to keep it from becoming
    a place where people start to do personal work.  EAP was concerned
    that people in many areas who have access to notes do not have access
    to professionals working in this field, and that for people in that
    position, it might be like starting therapy and then finding you
    don't really have a therapist.
    
    I personally feel that people will use notes as far as they are
    comfortable, and that people could have the same experience reading
    books that EAP people are concerned they will have reading notes,
    so I would have been willing to try it.  

    What do other people think?  Is there a need for such a conference?
    Would a resources forum be helpful?  I have a great deal of interest
    in the subject and want to support other survivors in any way I
    can.   Perhaps there are other EAP people who would feel differently
    if I were to explore the subject further, and who might be willing
    to participate in a file for survivors.
    
    If I can help you (writer of .99), please send mail.
    
    Holly
    

    re: .92
    	The title of his book for male incest survivors is
    "Victims No Longer", by Mike Lew.