Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    
    
    	i would give back the ring, if he asked for it....
    
    		wendy o'
    
    
    

    Miss Manners and Emily Post and Dear Abbey and Ann Landers all
    stress that the engagement ring belongs to the woman and she does
    not *have* to give it back.
    
    What she wants with the ring in the case of a broken engagement
    is another question.
    
    Bonnie

    re: .1:
    
    "IF he asked" for it back?  Why only "IF"?
    
    re: .2:
    
    Hmm.  Not to be nasty, but notice that they're all female, and thus
    the recipients of this little "gem"?  Are there any "male" equivalents
    to these people?
    
    To all:
    
    Would you accept the ring in the first place, if you were not intending
    to accept the proposal for marriage?
    
    "Thanks, John, nice ring.  Marriage?  Who, me?  Nah, you're not
    my type..."
    
    Bill

    
   > Now, I know that in Massachusetts, and elsewhere, the ring is
   > termed "consideration for a contract", and the guy can sue to get
   > his ring back IF (and this is important) the ring was not given
   > as a present on a birthday, Christmas, or some other holiday, because
   > then it is considered a GIFT.
    
   Along these lines, I'd say that if he bought the ring, and
   he called off the wedding, she should have the right to keep it.
   That is, (to be terribly analytical) that it's like putting down a
   deposit on something. If you don't go through with the deal,
   you lose your deposit.
  
   I would say that if he bought the ring, but she calls off the
   wedding, she should give it back.

   But, personally, I think if I were involved in a broken engagement,
   I'd be too upset to care about who got to keep the ring.
   Besides, what would either of them do with it?

    Well here's one answer for why either would want the ring:  I know
    two couples who have broken engagements, the first one the man got
    the ring back and sold it for as much of the original price that
    he could get. The second, well the girl kept the ring and hocked
    it for a pretty penny......Neither was a family heirloom, in which
    case the rules of if he did it she keeps it and vice versa, certainly
    change......
    
    
    TammyG

    If he didn't buy the ring, but it was his grandmother's or great
    aunt's (or some other family member) she should give it back regardless
    of what Miss Manners or Dear Abby say, or even if he breaks the
    engagement.  What would a person do with the engagement ring from
    a broken engagement anyway? Sell it?  I doubt anyone close to the
    situation would want to wear it again, whether it be the woman who
    keeps it or the next woman engaged to the man who got it back.

    	I happen to have 3 friends (all female) who have been in "broken
    engagements."  In 2 of the three cases, the woman broke it off and
    I don't really know what happened to the ring.  I'm pretty sure
    one of them was returned because it was a family heirloom.
    
    	In the the third case, the male got cold feet and backed out.
    She kept the ring, feeling that it was a gift.  Since she's headed
    for graduate school this fall, her philosophy is "well, I can always
    sell it if I get poor enough."  I know that sounds pretty mercenary,
    but I know how much pain she went through when it happened and she
    didn't keep it for the money. (The breakup was around a year ago,
    and she wasn't even considering quitting and going back to school
    then.)  When she asked me about it, I told her I felt the ring was
    hers to give back as she chose. (FWIW, She also got custody of the VCR,
    which had been a joint purchase...)
    
    	I'm pretty sure I would feel the same way were I the male in
    that position.  Gifts are given.
    
    					--Doug

    I think if the woman breaks off the engagement she should give back
    the ring out of courtesy, to ease the hurt, and to clear her
    conscience.  But, if the guy calls off the wedding, I think the
    woman should keep the ring.  It was a gift, he changed his mind,
    and now he has to deal with the consequences.  (I, regardless of
    laws or rules, consider that anything somebody gives me is a gift
    even if it's not Christmas or my birthday, and people should give
    because they want the person to have the gift, not because they
    want something in return.)
    
    If the ring had been a family heirloom, I would most certainly keep
    it as I collect antique rings. :-)  If it was in a plain, ugly
    contemporary setting I would sell it or have it reset if possible.
    
    People can't have everything their own way (something many men have
    to learn) and if you give something away, it's gone.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    
    (I just know I'm going to catch flak for this...)
    
    I've never liked the concept of engagement rings.  Giving and
    receiving one seems like a sexist arrangement, to me. 
    
    But then it took some real convincing for me to agree to wear
    a wedding ring....
    
    Deb
    
    

   Lorna, 
    
   If it is a family heirloom, then there is a mother or aunt or
    grandmother who cherished that ring and passed it on so that
    it would stay in the family. If your child were a son and you
    had given him one of your favorite rings to give to his bride
    to be, especially if it were one that you'd gotten from some
    one in your family, how would you feel if they broke up and
    she kept it? No, one doesn't have to give it back, but I think
    a ring that has family/senitmental value should be.
    
    and
    
    Bill,
    
    I think your arguements about the sex of the ettiquette advisors
    is a bit specious. I haven't found that any of the above 'advisors'
    to be biased in other areas in favor of their own sex. Can you
    suggest a suitable male authority we could 	query? The Playboy
    advisor perhaps? I referred to those sources as being more or
    less the publically accepted 'authorities' on traditional proper
    ettiquette.
    
    Bonnie

    	If it's ok, I'd like to reference my comments to the person
    	(.?) who wondered what one might do with an engagement ring
    	that one would not be inclined to want to wear AS an engage-
    	ment ring...
    
    	A friend of mine had some very nice jewelry left after her
    	12-year marriage ended (when he left to marry someone else.)
    	He didn't ask for anything back, nor did my friend offer.
    
    	Sometime after the divorce, she had her engagement ring (and
    	some other pieces he'd given her) reset into a beautiful
    	cocktail ring.  The new arrangement made the most of the
    	diamonds (and other stones) that he'd given her and was
    	different/unique enough in its new form to keep from reminding
    	her of the ex-husband AT ALL!  
    
    	(If anything, it was a symbol of the new life she was starting
    	without him.)  Ordering the new arrangement actually had the
    	effect of cheering her up at a moment when she needed it (and
    	the ring really did turn out to be beautiful!)

     
    I haven't read all the replies yet, but there is one thing that
    always bothered me - why would you want it??   
    
    If the gent dumped me I'd certainly have enough memories (good or
    bad) to last without wanting to keep the ring to remind of him,
    and my safe deposit box is cluttered enough already so why stash
    it there, and I guess I'm just to nice, or not greedy enough to
    want the cash, money is no healer for pain.  Even for a super
    shopper like me ;^).
    
    And on the occasions (and yes there were two and both to the same
    gent - and no I don't want to explain it now) where it was my choice
    to end the engagement I felt bad enough about calling it off, so
    why would I want a ring around the would server as a reminder of
    what a cad I'd been.  
    
    Guess it's just me, but I'd return it no matter who ended the 
    engagement.  
    
    lsn

    re: Why would either party want a ring from a broken engagement?
    
    	Well, the woman might want it because it's (a) a nice piece
    	of jewelry, or (b) because it's valuable, and she can sell
    	it for lots of money.
    
    	The man might want it so that he doesn't have to shell out
    	another $1500 or so if he finds another woman that he decides
    	he wants to marry.
    
    re: arbitors of etiquette
    
    	Regardless of the sex of said arbitor, I've always been
    	dubious about appealing to them as an authority. They are
    	generally authorities on what *tradition* is regarding a
    	certain situation. That doesn't mean that what they say is
    	necessarily ethically correct.
    
    re: the question at hand
    
    	In the instance of the ring being an heirloom, it seems clear
    	to me that returning the ring to the man is in order.
    
    	In other cases, regardless of who breaks the engagement, it's
    	my opinion that the *ethical* thing to do is for the woman to
    	give the ring back to the man. It's not clear to me, though,
    	that he has a legal right to get it back. While the law says
    	a gift is a gift, and a contract deposit is a contract deposit,
    	it seems to me that there's a difference between a $30 birthday
    	present or $10 deposit and a $1500 ring.
    
    Now, I may have this view because I'm male. I'll admit it. But,
    if the unlikely situation ever came up that a woman proposed to
    me and (assuming I say yes) gave me an engagement ring, I would
    give it back if the engagement was broken off.
    
    I agree with the previous reply that the giving of engagement
    rings is a sexist practice -- in fact, the whole process is sexist.
    It's the man who "has to" propose, it's the man who has to buy a
    ring for the woman.
    
    While I would most likely go with the flow and buy an engagement
    ring should the occasion arise, my feeling is that either no ring
    should be given for an engagement or the two should exchange rings,
    just as they do when they actually get married.
    
    Actually, I'd be more inclined, should I ever get engaged, to want
    to buck tradition, and exchange something other than a ring with
    my hypothetical fianc�e -- something else that serves as a "mark"
    that we are "spoken for" (which, after all, is really what engagement
    and wedding rings are for). Perhaps matching bracelets or necklaces.
    
    --- jerry

    Seems most people have a very different view of engagements and rings
    then myself and my husband did.  We sort of asked each other if we
    wanted to get married - it kind of evolved out of the relationship.
    Eventually we decided that we would make a serious commitment to each
    other and we BOTH went out and picked out a women's engagement ring and
    we BOTH paid for it.  At the time we were in school with not a heck of
    a lot of money to spare.  We promised that as soon as we could afford
    it we would buy him a nice ring too.  1500 dollars for an engagement
    ring would have been outrageous for us then. We choose a small diamond
    for around $400.  Then I graduated and started making some good money -
    for Christmas I bought him a classy diamond ring - sort of a
    reciprocation. 
    
    What would have happened if the engagement broke of?  Who knows. I
    can't say I would offer to give back a diamond that I partially paid
    for.  
    
    Would he give back the ring I gave him...I wouldn't want him to. I
    gave it to him - it is his to do with as he chooses.  If he did return
    it, I certainly wouldn't ever consider giving it to another man that I
    might later get engaged to! 
                                                        
    Had my ring been an heirloom from either family then it should be
    kept with the family it originally belonged to.
    
    Thinking of breaking off our engagement is a pretty silly thought
    now - we've been married for over a year!
                                                                   

   Several people have mentioned that they find the idea of the
  man buying the woman an engagement ring sexist, or even
  "buying love". Although I wore (wear) an engagement ring, I
  agree. (He surprised me with the ring. I didn't have the
  heart to say "take it back" after all the time he'd spent
  searching for the right one and keeping it a secret from
  me).

  Two couples I've known, both of whom were Greek, have bought
  each other engagement rings. I think this is a very sweet custom.
  It also avoids the fact that during most engagements, the woman
  is marked (by wearing the ring) as "taken", but the man's status
  is not as obvious. (Sounds kind of like the Miss/Ms/Mr issue
  again, doesn't it?)                                                                   

    Almost every man I've ever had as an SO has given me a ring.  Only
    two were gold (i.e. I felt the relationship was "solid" enough to
    lead potentially to marriage) - the rest were sterling and fairly
    inexpensive (i.e. no "rocks").  
    
    My first real "relationship", he gave me his college class ring
    to wear (HUGE ring, too - 14K)...and within a few months of this,
    I had a ring made for him (gold signet ring with emerald).  When
    we broke up, he asked for his ring back, so I asked for mine
    (fortunately, the initial for his first name, and the initial for
    my last name were the same!).  It was an amicable trade.  I still
    wear it.
    
    The other gold ring I kept, because it was a small 10K gold
    estate-jewelry ring with an amethyst, valued at maybe $100.  But,
    of course, it took a while before I could wear it again - it doesn't
    look like an engagement ring, though, so I'm not too bothered.
    
    If a gentleman bought me an engagement ring (and believe me, diamond
    would not be my first choice...more like sapphire) and made a
    considerable investment, whether or not I gave it back would depend
    on:
    
    a) the situation of the break-up - if it was his doing, I'd keep
    it, if it was my doing, I'd give it back if he wanted it.
    
    b) the amount of money the two of us had respectively thrown into
    the relationship....I've supported student-SO's before and I would
    have no qualms about keeping the ring in that case - especially
    if I had been putting money towards things "for our future", like
    a certain car, or certain hobbies that we would someday share...
    
    c) if it was an heirloom, I'd certainly give it back.
    

    -Jody
    

In 197.14, SHIRE::BIZE writes :

>    I know tradition is a nice thing and our cultural heritage should
>    be preserved and ... I am sure you get my meaning! Still, I was

	Too many traditions are being broken.  The world may be moving
	on (for better or worse) but its dumping some of the nice things 
	into the trash.

>                                                       Still, I was
>    really astonished that most of the people who responded here seem
>    to take engagements and engagement rings in their stride.

	I've been engaged since May and I don't take it in stride. Its 
	the most important thing in my life.
    
>    I think the practice is: 
>    
>    1) sexist - why should the man give something to the woman while the 
>      		woman gives nothing? Can't the woman afford it?
                           
      o	Who says the woman can't give anything?

      o	The idea behind the engagement is not the giving of the ring to
	the other person.  The idea is the commitment that the two are
	making to each other.  To some people the ring is a symbol of
	their love and commitment.  I bought my fiance a beautiful diamond 
	ring.  I did it because I felt that the stone's beauty and fire 
	was a symbol of my love for her.  
    
>    2) insulting - to the woman who is "bought"
>    		 - to the man who feels he has to "buy" his woman's
>    		   love;

	I totally and vehemently disagree.  When I got engaged, I did
	not BUY my fiance nor did I feel that I must BUY HER LOVE.
	I hate when people say this.  Engagements and marriages are not
	purchases.  The woman is not auctioned off for the best price!

>    3) adding unnecessary 
>       complications - when and if you marry, you'll get into a contract anyway,
>    		       do you really want to bother with a "downpayment
>    		       on sale" as if you were buying a house?
                                              
	I do not look at getting married as entering into a contract.  I'm
	not entering a business deal that I've just put a downpayment on
	and in which I 'pay the balance' on my wedding day.  The commitment
	that we've made to each other is not a business deal.

	Too many people are taking the love out of marriage by looking at
	it as a contract.
                                                       
>....
>....
>....

>    I know this is a tangent, but do most people still get engaged in
>    the States (Jerry seemed to imply it's the "done" thing?) What happened
>    to the idea that the US is 20 years ahead of Europe? Is that valid
>    just for technology and fast food?

>    I am having a little private fun at my terminal thinking about a
>    friend of mine who had a diamond in one of her nostrils ... how's
>    that for an engagement ring?

	That's fine if you are from a culture where that is the norm
	and I would respect that culture.


I hope that I haven't offended anybody but it's the way I feel.

Paul C
    
    

    
    	I knew a guy who asked for his ring back.   The reason?   He
    was still paying on it.   He felt it was unfair for her to keep
    the ring (which she did) because he had to keep paying for it long
    after the relationship was over.   I think she was selfish about
    it.
    
    						Alan.

>        I know this is a tangent, but do most people still get engaged in
>    the States (Jerry seemed to imply it's the "done" thing?) What happened
>    to the idea that the US is 20 years ahead of Europe? Is that valid
>    just for technology and fast food?

    It appears that most people in the US do get engaged. However I
    don't believe that that is an indication of ahead or behind. While
    technology generally does move in a lineal direction, with each
    step building on the ones before, cultural 'things' are not that
    way. For example, fashion appears to move in cycles. (short skirts,
    long skirts, and then short skirts just to give one example that
    has happened several times.) So terms like '20 years ahead' in
    cultural changes don't have much meaning. 500 years ahead maybe
    but 20 years is too small a time scale.
    
    Just one sociologists opinion,
    				Alfred

           <<< MOSAIC::$2$DJA6:[NOTES$LIBRARY]WOMANNOTES-V2.NOTE;1 >>>
                        -< Topics of Interest to Women >-
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Note 197.22                  Giving back the ring...                    22 of 22
CASV02::AUSTIN "Have a nice day...Somewhere else!"    0 lines  22-SEP-1988 09:46
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    Let me see if I have this right, because I have accepted an engagement
    ring from my husband, he is sexists and I have been bought.  Or
    rather he bought my love by buying me a ring?  How can you (general)
    tell what type of person I am and what type of person my husband
    is by the simple fact that he bought me an engagement ring?
                                                                   
    Just because some of you won't take an engagement does not make
    every woman who does/did "bought"                              
                                                                   
    I would think most relationships that go on to engagement rings
    and marraige have already had love for eachother to begin with.
                                                                   
                                                                   

    Re: .19
    
    I guess it all comes down not to what you do, but why you do it.

    Re: 197.19 NACAD::CIARFELLA
    
    Hi Paul!
    
    Yes, you are quite right we shouldn't always do away with tradition, 
    especially one we believe in, and I guess I expressed
    myself badly when I said that people were taking engagements - and
    rings - "in their stride". What I really meant, is that I understood
    from the previous notes that, if you planned to marry, you were
    "supposed" to get engaged, and "supposed" to spend some money on
    your intended ... and all that sounded awfully ... mercenary and
    artificial. I am sure this isn't the case for you, and that you
    are also expressing the thoughts of other people.
         
    On the other hand, sticking to tradition per se is something that
    I don't hold with. Too many horrors have been committed in the name
    of traditions - and, before anybody objects, I'll agree straight
    away that many horrors have also been committed in the name of moder-
    nity!
    
    How's that for a mixed-up note?
    
    Joana
    

  Re:197.14
    
  > I am having a little private fun at my terminal thinking about a
  > friend of mine who had a diamond in one of her nostrils ... how's
  > that for an engagement ring?
    
    What is so funny about wearing diamond in one of her nostrils? 
    FYI it is called a nose ring if she was an Indian.  I am an Indian
    from MADRAS, INDIA and I do wear one in my left nostril.  I like
    when people ask me about it but not when they think it is funny.
    Even though I love it here in USA I like to take the best of both culture
    and teach my children the same.  If you like to learn about other 
    countries/culture ask or read about it.  I will be happy to explain 
    about our culture and tradition but don't make a joke out of it.
    
    Sorry if I came on strong, but thats how I feel about the above comment.
    
    Regards
     
    Geetha
    
    i
    
    
    
    
    
    

    re 197.25 TIS::ANANDRAJ
    
    Geetha,
    
    I was really into expressing myself very badly this morning, and
    I do apologize most awfully for offending you:
    
    Let me make it clear that I thought my friend looked lovely with
    her diamond in her nostril - she was a very beautiful woman, though
    not Indian. What I thought funny was the idea of replacing a
    traditional engagement ring - i.e. on your finger - by a different
    sort of ring, sort of: if you buy a ring, why not try something
    else?
    
    I am absolutely mortified that I can have expressed myself so badly
    and so unthinkingly, and hope you will accept my apologies!
    
    By the way, as my note seems to have impressed unpleasantly several
    people, I am off to delete it (hope it works, I have never deleted
    one of my notes, but everybody says I should be able to do it: if
    I am not would the moderators be kind enough to do it for me?)
    This subject is not something I have very strong feelings about,
    just "general ideas" and it is definitely not worth hurting anybody's
    feelings. 
    
    Joana

    Bonnie, I was only joking about not giving back a family heirloom.
     I wouldn't really keep it.
    
    In my own case, I never had an engagement ring and have never been
    engaged.  My ex-husband and I decided to get married during a
    discussion after we had been dating for 1 1/2 yrs.  He told me that
    he didn't have much use for tradition, that he had no intention
    of getting married in a church in the traditional manner, and that
    he didn't have enough money to buy me a diamond.  All I cared about
    was being able to share my life with him so I agreed that it didn't
    matter to me either.  We got married by a Justice of the Peace 3
    weeks later.
    
    He did give me a friendship ring the first Christmas that I knew
    him.  It was 14K gold with a tiny diamond chip.  At the time it
    only cost around $30. (1971) I still keep this in my jewelry box
    for sentimental reasons.  Even tho we eventually fell out of love
    and got a divorce after 12 1/2 yrs. of marriage, he's still the
    first man I was ever in love with, and when he gave me the ring
    for Christmas and told me he loved me, he was the first man who
    ever told me he loved me, and that moment will always mean something
    to me.  (I doubt he even remembers he ever gave me the ring.)
    
    Nobody else has ever given me a ring in my entire life.  I've made
    up for it by buying a lot of them for myself!!
    
    If I ever decided to get married again, which means if I ever fall
    in love with somebody who also loves me and wants to get married
    and I want to marry them (whew!), I really don't care if I get an
    engagement ring or not.  Tradition means just about nothing to me.
     If I ever find somebody I feel that way about, just finding the
    person will be enough.  I won't need a ring.  However, if we decided
    to exchange some sort of engagement gift - rings, earrings, whatever,
    that we picked out together, that would be fun.
    
    Lorna
    

re: .9

(what are the twenty some-odd other replies saying? Maybe I'll read 'em)

I agree Deb. I made my poor sweety get himself training wheels (black star
sapphire) so I could put on my family heirloom diamond. I would have skipped
the whole bit otherwise.
	Mez

  Re:    
   > In my own case, I never had an engagement ring and have never been
   > engaged.  My ex-husband and I decided to get married during a
       (Several sentences omitted)
   > matter to me either.  We got married by a Justice of the Peace 3
   > weeks later.
    

    Sure you've been engaged. You were engaged for those 3 weeks.
  Engagement is the period of time between when you two agree to
  marry and when you have the actual ceremony. A ring isn't
  necessary (except to satisfy all those relatives who don't believe
  he'll "go through with it" until they see a ring on your finger.
  Yuck!)

    
    In my (much) younger days, I was engaged twice.  In both cases, I
    lived with my fianc� for some number of years. (Long engagements
    make a lot of sense to me - I never could understand how a person
    could commit to someone s/he has only known for a few weeks or months.)
    Long before our planned wedding date (in both cases), we came to the
    realization that our life goals just weren't compatible, and we
    called it off and went our seperate ways.
    
    In both cases, I was given an engagement ring.  Neither man wore
    rings, so I did not get a ring for either of them, but got other
    things (eg; leather jacket for one, a Navaho squash blossom for
    the other).  I insisted that the ring I was given in both cases
    be an inexpensive one, as I'm not very comfortable wearing expensive
    jewelry.  In each case, when the relationship ended and the engagement
    was broken, I offered to return the ring, and was told, "No, it
    is my gift to you; please keep it."  And I did.
    
    Now, in answer to the question of why a woman would wish to keep
    such a ring, and what she would do with it, let me say this: not
    all broken engagements hold bad memories.  I am still friends with
    both of my ex-fianc�s.  I love both men dearly, and loved them even
    at the time that we split up.  Having great love between two people
    does not necessarily indicate that those people will be suitable life
    companions for each other, or that marriage between them is
    appropriate!  I have fond memories of the time I spent with each
    of those men.  In both cases, we learned a great deal about each other,
    helped each other grow up, and discovered what we, as individuals,
    wanted out of our lives.  I have no regrets, and from what I have
    seen, my ex-fianc�'s do not regret the times we spent together,
    either.  I had both rings (a small (1/4carat) diamond solitaire
    in white gold, and a dark blue oval sapphire in white gold) cut
    down to fit the little finger of my right hand.  I wear them.  They
    are reminders of people I care greatly for, people I shared a large
    part of my life and the experience of growing up with.
    
    Both men are now married to women who are much more appropriate
    for them than I ever was, and I see them and their spouses socially.
    Their wives are not threatened that I still wear their rings, and
    the two men consider it a symbol of friendship and support that
    will always be between us, wherever our lives take us.  Oh yes,
    and they both still wear their gifts from me as well.
    
    Jerry, I like your suggestion of matching necklaces, since that
    is what Tom (my husband) and I purchased for each other shortly
    after moving in together.  We had not planned on marrying until
    about two days before we married, so I broke my long engagement
    rule ;-) and we never really got around to the "engagement ring"
    question.  We're still likely to spontaneously buy each other the
    nice silver jewelry we both collect, so it hardly matters..
    
    Rita
                                       
    

    Engagement ring cases come up regularly on People's Court, which
    I watch religiously.  Under California law (varies by state) it
    does depend on who breaks off the engagement.  If the man breaks
    off the engagement, the woman gets to keep the ring -- if the
    woman breaks it off or it is by mutual consent, the man gets it
    back.
    
    This of course is irrelevant to what may feel right to a couple
    in a particular instance, or what a person may think is a fair way
    to handle it in general, or what etiquette experts may say.

<    my hypothetical fianc�e -- something else that serves as a "mark"
<    that we are "spoken for" (which, after all, is really what engagement
<    and wedding rings are for). Perhaps matching bracelets or necklaces.

	Tatoos are nice. :*) liesl

    As I  understand this discussion, one can purchase a woman for the
    price  of  an  engagement ring, which varies from $150 to $1500. I
    must spend more than $150/year on eating out because I didn't have
    time  to  cook, so assuming I could find a woman who can cook, the
    purchase  would  pay  for  itself  within a year. And that doesn't
    include  the  advantage  of  having  the house cleaned and all the
    myriad other services a wife provides.

    Can anyone  tell  me  where to find the appropriate emporium? I'll
    stop  by  on  my  way home tonight. If I'd understood what a great
    deal buying a wife was, I would have done it years ago.

--David
(with tongue firmly planted in cheek.)

    Personally, I don't like rings.  A variety of reasons for this:
    
     - I can feel the extra weight, and don't like it, and can't get
       used to it
     - I hate having to remember it, when I take it off somewhere for
       some reason (tinkering on bicycle, for example)
     - I use sign language quite a bit, so after a few raps on the head
       while enthusiastically signing, one learns distaste for hard
       metal objects on their hands...
    
    Bonnie:
       I didn't mean to be "specious", as you said. (And I had to look
    that one up!)  If I offended, I'm sorry.
    
    re: tradition, and matching bracelets, necklaces, tatoos (wowee, 
        liesl! How about strawberry *right there*? :^)
    
    I've always felt traditional enough that I would probably be the
    one doing the asking...  I've always felt that I'd have to spring
    for the ring, up front, so to speak.  (I'm now beginning to wonder,
    seeing from the replies in this note..)
    
    Bracelets are not new.  Read Marion Zimmer Bradley - the "catenas"
    (matching bracelets) were exchanged, not rings...
    
    As for myself, I decided a couple of years ago, I wanted a diamond
    earring.  Hot d**n, eh?  Technically, it's still a ring...
    
    re: .0 (my own base note)
    
    When discussing the "ring back" business with the other person in
    the conversation, (female, but irrelevant to giving or getting back),
    I mentioned that I'd want a diamond earring.
    
    Her response:
    
    (popeyed) "Geez, you're expensive..."
    
    Hmm?

    re: .33:
    
    Simply stop by any middle eastern (Syrian Orthodox is one) church.
    For such a price, one can have a subservient, appropriately modest 
    lady imported, eager to serve *you*.  Several far east countries
    practice the same type of thing...  (The usual deal is some amount
    to the parents, plus airfare.  Ring apparently optional.  :^)
        
    Bill 
    (tongue-likewise-firmly-planted-in-cheek)

    LET'S HEAR IT FOR    .19    YEA YEA YEA YEA YEA!!!!!
    
    I couldn't agree more!  Also, a big   RAH RAH RAH for .22!!
    
    I don't really go along with all this sexist stuff.  My husband
    bought me an engagement ring...(picture a small horse choking...)and
    I LOVE it.  This does not mean he "bought" me -- and I am offended
    by being "catagorized" by a comment like that -- it means we are
    committed to each other to the very end.  What did I give to him?
    Not a ring - but the promise to be with him & stand behind him and
    love him forever - as long as we both shall live, the promise to
    still be there for him when he got back from deployment over seas
    (and every other deployment).  To wear that ring he gave me as a
    symbol for ALL to see that I AM SPOKEN FOR AND AM NOT INTERESTED
    IN ANY ADVANCES FROM ANYONE.  *THAT'S* what I gave him.  And if
    you don't belive that's "enough" or "not equivalent" to an 
    engagement ring, that's too bad.  
    
    I was not bought - nor did my husband try to "buy" my love.
    
    Mrs. T (and PROUD of it!) 

    
    
    If wearing a ring 'big enough to choke a horse'-albeit, a
    small one (a pony, I guess), makes you happy, well good.
    People deserve to be happy (I suppose THAT statement is going
    cause an argument too!).  But-some women don't need an external
    signal that says "I'M TAKEN"....heck, it would be a lot cheaper to
    wear a big sign around your neck, you know.    I like the more
    subtle route, myself.  If someone makes unwelcome advances, I just
    tell them I'm not interested.  Gads, I hope you never have to take
    that ring to the jewelers-you're liable to be deluged with requests
    from men who think you are suddenly available!!
    
    Why do I feel it's sexist?  Well-what symbol of unavailability was
    your husband-to-be wearing?
    
    Then again, if the ring symbolized "Hey, look, I finally hooked
    one", well then it probably belongs right where it is.
    
                             Deborah
    

    Since this topic seems to be moving away from why give the ring
    back to why wear a ring (hmmm, noter self to moderator self, is
    this a rathole worth starting another topic for...??) I thought
    I would enter the thoughts I put in mensnotes on the same note
    (where the same digression appears to be occuring...
    
    ___________________________________________________________
    
    Well my ring cost the price of painting a house the first time.
    It is small but 'suitably ostentatious' i.e. it stands for
    somthing very special. (The house was a two story victorian and
    all the paint peeled off the following spring!) The ring was given
    to me in a bar/coffee shop in Grand Central Station! :-) Savins?
    Some years later the stone fell out and I put it away until we
    could afford to replace it. At the time we were *very*  broke
    having (perhaps foolishly) bought an old farm in the country. At
    about that time I found three savings bonds my great uncle had
    given me when I was born. Being very tempted to cash them in for
    food and expense money, we cashed them in instead to replace the
    stone in the ring. (This being before we were sensitive on SA
    issues, I would have picked a different stone today.)
    
    So my ring stands for a lot of things, the hard work a very
    broke young grad student put in painting the house of some
    next door neighbors (who knew neither he nor his clergy parents
    had the cash for an enagement ring), the gift years ago during
    a war of a man who I never met, and a memory of some very rough
    times for us that we survived.
    
    Bonnie
    
    it reminds me of a poem that I can't quite quote correctly
    
    "....if thou hast two loaves, then sell one and with the dole,
    by hyacinths to feed thy soul"

    Re .34, a male friend used to wear a big diamond stud earring. 
    He actually had trouble with women trying to steal if off his ear
    at singles bars and had to stop wearing it!!!
    
    Re rings.  I collect antique rings and usually wear 8 at a time,
    but I'm single so none of them means I'm engaged, bought or married
    - just mildly eccentric :-)!  I'm so used to wearing a ring on every
    finger that if I forget them I feel naked! or like I forgot my shoes
    or something!
    
    I have a book on the history of finger rings.  The history of
    engagement and wedding rings is especially interesting.  The author
    put in a list of sayings that have been found engraved in engagement
    and wedding bands.  This is the funniest (?) if I can remember it,
    "Take this ring.  It is a manacle of my love."
    
    Talk about possessive, huh?
    
    
    Lorna
    

    .36 Deborah
    
    1.  "Choke a small horse" is merely a comment - actually more of
    	private joke for us - take is as you may - obviously its not
    	as funny here.....
    
    2.	No, my husband did not wear an engagement ring, we are fairly
    	traditional people.  Nevertheless, I could not see going through
    	the extra expense of TWO engagement rings - we did, however,
    	wear a Mizpah necklace (split coin)....is this "un"sexist enough?
    	He now wears a wedding band.                                                          
    
    3.	I'm sure that I would not be bombarded with proposals by the
    	simple act of taking off my ring (as you implied), however,
    	I do feel I put up with less of it by wearing my ring.
        
    
    My original note may have come off somewhat harsh - however, I do
    feel insulted by previous notes which "catagorized" me as someone
    that is shallow & has little self-respect (which would have to be
    true if a person allowed herself to be "bought" & sold with such
    ease). 
    
    Personal opinions are fine - but we can keep them just that - personal.
    GENERAL/CATAGORIZING statements should not be made.
    
    Mrs. T.
    
    
    Mrs. T.
    	

    I have an engagement ring.  Paul and I decided to get married, then
    we picked out a diamond ring together for me and bought a ring he
    had been wanting for him.  I always considered these rings _gifts_
    to each other.  It never occurred to me that _my_ ring "belonged"
    to him.  As others have said, these rings symbolized our new level
    of commitment to each other.  However, that doesn't mean that the
    practice and the history behind it aren't still sexist.  Being able
    to give him a ring he wanted made it seem more equitable to me.
                                                
    It seems as though the law as explained here, for Massachusetts
    anyway, looks at it in the following way:  The ring belongs to the
    man; he just puts it on "his woman" to "mark" her.  (Remember, I
    said this is how the _law_ seems to look at it, not the individuals
    within the relationship.)  If that's the case, and the woman is
    obliged to return the ring, why doesn't that still hold after
    marriage--that if the marriage ends, the woman is obliged to return
    the ring, which really belongs to the man?  (I don't think that
    it should be that way, but that's what the law's "logic" seems to
    dictate.)  Most divorced women I know have kept their diamonds and
    had them reset into other pieces of jewelry.            
    
    This law may explain what happened to a friend of mine when she
    received a diamond ring from her fiance (about six years ago). 
    It was a very expensive ring and she decided to have it insured.
    The insurance company refused to insure it in her name.  Their policy
    was that they would not insure a diamond solitaire in a women's
    name unless (a) she could proved, by cancelled check or credit card
    receipt, that she had purchased it, or (b) she could produce a
    notarized letter from her fiance saying it was okay.  AAAARRRGGHH!!
    What if your grandmother left it to you?
    
    Judy got the letter from her fiance (who agreed he had _given_ it
    to her) and returned to the insurance company.  This time she got
    a different clerk who didn't know how to deal with this "exception."
    Finally, Judy--who was very angry by now--grabbed the form from the 
    clerk, went behind the counter, sat at the typewriter and typed her 
    name into the form herself.                                         
                                                                        
    
    The symbolism of rings on women _is_ very powerful.  It's been very
    interesting being pregnant and wearing no rings (because of swelling
    in my fingers) to note how many people react to this.  Why do they
    even care?  But that's another topic...
    

    
    
    .40
    
    Yes, the symbolism of rings DOES seem to be of importance in
    our society....during my first marriage, I wore no rings at
    all (feeling that marriage was a private act and not feeling
    the need to "advertise" that I was indeed married).  Even more
    confusing, neither my husband or myself changed our last name.
    So you can imagine the scathing looks I received during my
    pregnancy (this was 9 years ago, when it was even more unusual
    for a woman not to change her name, much less skip the wedding
    ring part)...
    
    I did not change my last name after my second marriage either,
    although I do now wear a wedding band. It's amazing how people's
    eyes automatically go to our left hands when we introduce ourselves
    and they notice we don't share the same last name....most recently
    when my son (who uses my first husband's last name, hows THAT for
    confusing???) signed up for cub scouts, and my husband volunteered
    to be Cub Leader...I think the scouts would have been scandalized
    if Chuck and I were not legally married. (yes, they checked to make
    sure we were wearing wedding rings)   sigh.
                                                               
    
                         Deb
    
    

    	I have presented and offered more than a few engagement rings,
    some of which were returned when the engagment broke off (one when
    a marriage ended in divorce).  I never expected to reacquire any
    of the rings and in most of the insttances when they were returned,
    I felt quite sad since they were as much statements of love as anything
    else and breaking an engagement means there will be marriage much
    more than it means there is no longer any love between the couple.
    
    	C....... and I broke our engagement because she wanted to join
    Peace Corps (as a reult of my experiences in Peace Corps).  We felt
    we would both be better of with our bond of love and the freedom
    of non-engagement.  Two years proved to be a bit long for either
    of us to wait.  We saw each other about 15 years after she returned
    from Peace Corps.  She was (is) happily married and commeneted that
    she saw the engagement ring every time she opened her jewelry box
    and thought of me.  Regardless of the cost of the engagement ring,
    I could not be happier that she kept it.
    
    	Hell, money is nothing more than a means to an end.  Spend it
    well and tomorrow will always be a sunny day.
    
    	Libby, the woman with whom I am married, wears a wedding ring
    but no engagement ring (she doesn't like engaement rings for her).
    I don't wear a wedding ring (never have).  Libby's ring is not a
    'manacle' of marriage and my ringless third-finger-left-hand is
    not an 'I-am-available' sign.  (I dislke jewelry on me and wear
    a watch [a very sentimental gift of 29 years ago] and a pinky ring
    [made by my late father during the 2nd World War from a stainless
    steel nut].
    
    Douglas

    	Just prior to being inducted into the military (exactly 20 years
    ago today!!!), my girlfriend and I became engaged. We corresponded
    almost daily for about 5-6 weeks, then her letters became shorter
    and and less frequent. Three day before I went home on leave from
    boot camp (12 weeks total) I called her to let her know all about
    how much time I'd have, when I'd be home, flight, etc. when she
    told me that she had been seeing someone else for over two months.
    	When I got home, I went to her house and picked up my albums,
    sweaters and misc other things. It was quiet to say the least and
    as she escorted me to the door, I said "Where's the ring??" She
    was shocked that I was asking for it back and thought that she would
    keep it and use it as their (her new boyfriend couldn't afford to
    buy one) engagement ring. Needless to say I got just a bit angry
    and demanded it back since it was she who had broken the engagement.
    She gave back and I went directly to the jeweler and asked if they
    would take it back. They examined it and said that it hadn't been
    worn at all, and they would gladly take it back. Instead of money
    I decided to buy a beautiful Seth Thomas Mantel Clock. 
    
    I still have it today and it still runs perfectly. When the chimes
    sound, every once in awhile my wife will say "Chrissie's calling".
    
    I guess what I'm saying is that if she breaks the engagement then
    there should be no question but the giver gets the ring. If it's
    an agreeable break without hard feelings then the giver should be
    able to ask for it back and not cause problems. If the giver breaks
    it off.......the getter should do with it what she wishes.
    
    Ken 

    
    Ken,
    
    Consider this if you will:  Girl gets engaged to sailor.  Sailor's
    enlistment is up and is coming home.  GREAT!  Right?
    
    Scenario:
    Sailor has been at sea for last few months.  Girl goes out with 
    friends for _one_ evening without sailor.  He gets angry, then drunk 
    then finds a one-night stand for himself.
    
    Next day: Girl finds out, breaks engagement.  
    
    Why should she give back a ring (which holds memories of GOOD times) 
    when it was his actions that sabotaged their relationship?

    Why would she want to keep it?  Many reasons.  (1) Fond memories
    of the _good_ times together; (2) It was a gift; (3) Having the
    stone placed in a different setting.

    

    Any suggestions on where to sell a "used" engagement ring? Luckly
    I have the "papers" for it. I don't want to have it reset...I'd
    rather have the $$.
    
    Gail