Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    My experience - for what it's worth.  I was 28 when I decided I
    didn't want any more children.  I had one son at the time, then
    aged two and in an unhappy marriage.  However, happy or not in my
    marriage, I felt that I didn't want any more children.
    
    A military hospital near where I lived (in UK) was willing to perform
    a sterilisation op. (The National Health Hospital said I was too
    young!)  I had what I believe is called a Laprascopic (sp)
    Sterilisation.  A small incision is made near the naval and a tube
    inserted and the tubes are sealed.
    
    I was in hospital two nights - felt fine straight away.  I divorced
    shortly after the operation, and 12 years later have never looked
    back.  I have one smashing son and have never had the maternal urge
    since.
    
    As long as you are sure that whatever happens i.e. marriage break
    up or loss of child, that YOU don't want any more children, if you
    are then I think sterilisation would be good for you.
    
    
    
    
    
    

    Tubal ligation is an operation that severs the tube making it
    impossible for the tube to pickup the egg from the ovary and bring
    it to the uterus.  Conception therefore does not occur.  It is minor
    surgery and in the States can be done in outpatient surgery and
    you can return to work in less than a week.
    
    A hysterectomy is removal of all or some of the female organs and
    can only be performed if there is disease present.
    
    If you were to have a tubal ligation you would still menstruate
    and still suffer whatever symptoms you currently have with your
    cycle.

    please check out the following in the original womannotes:
    
    34:  Women's reproductive rights
    102:  Contraceptives:  what do you do?
    146:  Do you ever want children?
    434:  Laparoscopy surgery
    
    they all talk about this and other methods of birth control in detail.
    
    -Jody
    

    Please go to Clergy or whomever with your husband..
    
    After our Daughter was born in Texas the Doctor said one of you
    need to be "fixed!"  Your wife will not live through another
    pregnancy... loving my wife, I chose to be the one "fixed."
    
    I have an active sex life with my wife and we never have to
    worry about any precautions.  
    
    I got the operation and went back to class afterwards,
    I did experience some discomfort sitting for such a long time
    and We enjoyed sex that night with a condom, as it takes a 
    while for the existing sperm to be exhausted from the system.
    
    You have my support and if you wish you have my permission
    to use this note in any way..
    
    I am in ELF.. you may phone me if you want any other testemonial.
    (SP)
    
    Dave

    If your GYN does not think you are old enough to have your tubes tied,
    and you are sure that's what you want, call Planned Parenthood or other
    family planning clinic, explain the situation to them, and ask to
    be referred to another doctor by them.  Almost undoubtedly you can
    find someone who will honor your wishes.
    
    Don't get a hysterectomy, unless there is some other medical need
    for it.
    
    Elizabeth

     I had my tubes tied at the age of 23 ( really ). I have 2 great
    kids and I was even divorced when I had it done.
     Starting so young I decided that I would be and am a great mother
    to my children but since I did not have a chance to do the things
    I wanted when I was young I would do them when I was older and by
    then I will be able to afford to do what I want.
      I did think long and hard about this and I do not regret it at
    all. Make sure it is what you want because the chance of concieving
    after you have it undone is slim to none..( if you should want it
    reversed after it has been done).
      I had it done as an outpatient and really was just out of it for
    the one day....
    
         feel free to contact me by mail if you have any questions..
    
                         Julie

    I had my tubes cut (not sealed) in April 88. They did not do it
    through the navel but through the vagina, so it took a little longer:
    I stayed in hospital for 1 week and at home for another week. For
    another 3 weeks I could not do sports and have sex - and that was
    it. My doctor preferred to do it through the vagina a) because it
    is supposed to be slightly safer and b) that was the method he had
    the experience with.
    I found it very difficult to get a doctor to do it - they HARDLY
    EVER do it in Germany unless you're 35 or more, and even then, most
    doctors won't do it for a woman who has no kids. One of the remarks
    from a (male) doctor: "and what will you do when you get to know
    a man who does want kids?" I never went to him again.
    So far, I feel very fine. After almost 20 years on the pill, it
    really IS an experience to feel one's body "working" again; I watch
    my base temperature to see whether my ovaries are working properly
    again etc. (and watch the moon, of course).
    Good luck & regards
    pony
    

    Re .4, I have a lot of respect for any man who is willing to have
    a vasectomy when they know they don't want to father any more children.
     I especially have a lot of respect for married men who have
    vasectomies done so their wife won't have to have a tubal ligation
    (is that what it's called?) done.  I, personally, think that women
    go through enough with having their periods for most of their lives
    (some of us having cramps every month), and with being pregnant
    and giving birth (some of us having c-sections or horribly painful
    labor).  I'm afraid that I, personally, if confronted with an SO
    who refused to have a vasectomy (if he agreed to no more children)
    because he as one male friend once stated to me "didn't want any
    doctor tying his b*lls in knots!" - well I'm afraid I would take
    a very stubborn attitude.  I wouldn't deal with it well.  
    
    Does this attitude that many men seem to have toward vasectomies
    bother other women?
    
    Lorna
    

    re: .8
    
    I think I understand a little bit how it must feel.
    
    When I think of birth control, I don't think of having my tubes
    tied, and when something like this note makes me think of it, I
    shudder.  I don't want to irrevokably tie off my ability to have
    children -- not for the reproduction of it but because it's part
    of my sexuality, my feminine identity, and destroying that would
    hurt something inside me.  I know, having my tubes tied has
    nothing to do with my sexual function, but still it would hurt. 
    
    How much worse it must be for a man, whose sexuality and
    reproductive ability are so much more intimately and obviously
    connected. 
    
    --bonnie

    re .9, I think one reason this attitude on the part of men bothers
    me so much is that I have heard male friends state that, in one
    instance, they "never having any more children", they were "done
    having kids", and, in another case, that they "never wanted to have
    any more kids" and that if a woman they had sex with got pregnant
    they would expect her to have an abortion and that if she wouldn't
    she would be "on her own".  Why should I or any other woman have
    to have an abortion, or have her tubes tied, because a man who doesn't
    want to have any more children, refuses to have a vasectomy because
    he feels his manhood is threatened.  (I have had some experience
    of men who have had vasectomies and in none of the cases did *I*
    think it affected their manhood!)  This attitude of selfishness
    on the part of *some men* really hurts me.  I feel like *I'm* left
    to deal with either birth control, getting a tubal, an abortion,
    or raising a child - all on *my own*.  It hurt to have a baby and
    it hurts to have cramps every month, and I think men who really
    love their SO's should be willing to suffer a little, too, in the
    cause of  not creating unwanted children.
    
    I, personally, decided a long time ago that I would never bring
    more than two children into the world, and that after my second
    child I would have a tubal.  I just wouldn't want to have the
    responsibility of being mother to more than 2 kids - I feel like
    I wouldn't have any more mothering to go around.  But, since I've
    only had one child, I've never had it done.
    
    Lorna
    

    This is just Speculation and an Opinion of things that I have
    observed in some men, and I could have fit this catagory when
    I was with my first wife.  Here goes and I expect to get burned
    at or without the stake!
    
    Some men feel that at present time that they are through having
    children.  At some future time perhaps they would like to have
    another child... well no problem, you can have some of your own
    sperm frozen for future usage if you like, and you can save lots
    of it if you would like.  (I wish that I had some frozen, because
    a Friend in California would have like to have had some, but I 
    had enough children.  (by the way this friend is lesbian and 
    artificial is the only way she is going to be inseminated!)
    
    So, if you do not want any more children now, and want to later
    perhaps have some, freeze a few of those critters and you can
    go be chopped, and then enjoy the piece of mind of knowing you
    are not going to impregnate anyone you come across.
    
    Cars have chop jobs done and they are fine too, so we can..
    for those so inclined some say there is a change in the flavor,
    however, I cannot comment on that first hand.
    
    Dave
    

    No, Lorna, in my case, it did not bother me at all. I talked it
    over with my man; he said he felt very unsecure of how he would
    feel after it (see .9, I think Bonnie is very right. 
    Anyway, it was only "a matter of politeness" on my side to ask him
    whether he would do it - I was determined already to have it done
    myself. I know it's a bit schizophrenic: I get very mad at
    some (most?) men's attitude concerning birth control, but I've always
    found it too important for MY life to trust a man with it... ;)
    It's me who might get pregnant, so I rather take the precautions
    myself - and the risks from the pill etc. I know that's making it
    easy to men - but well.......
    Another thing is: I MIGHT want to have sex with another man; the
    birth control methods that have to be applied "on the spot" are
    fine with a partner you really know - but I would not like thinking
    of them with a "stranger".
    The discussion about the whole thing turned out to deepen the
    understanding betwen my man and me; he talked about some of his
    fears, and I talked about the fact that I might want another man...
    
    regards
    pony
    
    

    re: .10
    
    I understand your point, Lorna, and I'm sure some men are using
    this feeling to selfishly avoid their own responsibilities.
    
    But losing the ability to reproduce is not a threat to one's
    manhood or womanhood in the same sense as, say, wearing a man's
    cologne or letting a woman open the door for a male coworker is a
    threat to one's manhood or womanhood.  It's much more serious.
    
    For me, being able to reproduce is such an integral part of my
    view of myself as a woman that I couldn't cut off that part of me
    deliberately and permanently.  [I expect I'll have a really rough
    menopause...] I think society has taught us all that our manhood
    or womanhood is intimately connected to our ability to reproduce. 
    Men and women who are infertile go through all kinds of hell
    coming to grips with that inability. 
    
    Saying "I don't want to have any more children" is NOT the same
    thing as saying "I don't want to be able to have more children
    ever."  How to avoid pregnancy now is a pragmatic decision to be
    discussed between couples or taken care of quietly according to
    one's own moral and religious beliefs. Deciding to eliminate all
    of one's reproductive capacity, whether it's vasectomy or tubal
    ligation, is an intimate personal decision about the function of
    one's own body.  
    
    Being permanently sterilized requires coming to terms with a
    profound change in one's image of one's self.  If one person loves
    another enough to offer that change, that's wonderful, but it's
    not something that one person has a right to insist that another
    person do.
    
    --bonnie

    Re .13, I agree, Bonnie, that one person has no right to insist
    on another person being sterilized.  (I wouldn't ever do that partly
    because I would never want to give anybody the satisfaction
    of throwing it back in my face at a later date!  I'd definitely
    have to be able to say to the person, don't ever blame me, it was
    your own decision.  The other reason is that I respect the rights
    of others to live their lives as they see fit as long as they don't
    hurt me, (Melissa or my cats!)
    
    All I would ask of a man who would never have a vasectomy is that
    he never tell me that if I got pregnant by accident, that I had
    better have an abortion, because he would have no intention of
    acknowledging the child.  (I was told this by one man and it hurt
    me very much.)  In other words, if any man has determined that *he*
    doesn't want any more children, then I feel that that is *his* problem
    and not mine, and I would, if ever in that situation, sue the man
    for child support if I decided that having an abortion was not a
    decision I could live with.  (I'm so glad the pill exists.)
    
    Lorna
      

    re: .14
    
    Yes, the man who told you that was definitely an insensitive
    clod.  No two ways about it. 
    
    It's amazing how the simple biological fact that it takes two
    people, one of each sex [or the output thereof, so to speak] to
    make a baby can complicate the rest of life so immensely . . .
    
    --bonnie

    I had a hysterectomy 6 years ago at 30.  I don't miss my uterus.
    I have never identified my womanness nor my identity by the fact
    that I had a uterus. My ability or non-ability to have children
    does not make me less a woman then someone who has a uterus. 
    Maybe I have a strong sense of self.  I am NOT saying that women
    who feel different are wrong, I just wanted to put in my very strong
    reaction to the comment that a uterus makes the woman.  No, I am
    not quoting, thats what I perceived what was said.
    
    vivian

    re: .16 
    
    I'm sorry, Vivian.  I didn't mean that the uterus makes the woman,
    or the testicles make the man.  First of all I was only talking
    about myself; I'm sorry if I generalized to how other women feel
    and I certainly never intended to say anyone else should be like
    me. Reproductivity has nothing to do with human worth. Having
    reproductive organs doesn't mean you have to reproduce. And being
    able to reproduce isn't a necessary component to womanhood or
    manhood. 
    
    But on the other hand, the ability to reproduce is not a neutral
    thing for me, either. The ability to make and hold a new life
    inside seems to me very miraculous.  I would define myself
    differently if I were no longer able to do this.  Not better, or
    worse, but merely differently. 
    
    Defining myself exclusively by my reproductive organs would be
    stupid, but defining myself without including my reproductivity
    would be denying a part of myself. 
    
    And, I repeat, I'm talking strictly about myself here . . .
    
    --bonnie

    
    After my wife had our last child, who's five now, we discussed the
    possibility of another. After covering the pro's and con's we dicided
    that we were through having children of our own and proceded to
    plan on long time birth control.
    
    I opted to have a Vasectomy down rather then my wife having the
    "Band Aid" surgery.
    
    She had just had a baby, and we didn't want to prolong her misery
    any longer.
    For me it mean't 30 minutes with a local.
    
    For her she had to be sedated.( We lost a friend 32 who died under
    anesthesia)  Scary!
    
    And I loved her( Please I'm no Martyr)
    
    As it turned out it wasn't as easy as it's suppose to be, still
    problems after several years, but it was well worth it and it hasn't
    hurt our sex life at all.
    
    Cal.
    

    re:  .18
    
    You too? My Husband had a vasectomy in June and he still
    has minor problems. The doc said as long as there was no pain, 
    the changes were ok. Not as simple as it's touted to be.
    

    
    
    Pain!?
    
    Yes a lot of pain, and still is after over 2 years. I figure the
    doc left his watch or something . ha!
    
    I finally went to another Doctor and had a complete exam, a CAT
    type scan and X-Rays with a follow up 6 months after. The problem
    was a infection wich formed Calcium deposits. The only way to stop
    the pain is to reverse the operation.. No thank you, once is enough.
    
    Now it's just uncomfortable at times, nothing major.
    
    Funny thing about those X-rays.. I had a rupture Disk and finally
    went to see a Chiropractor as a last resort.  I brought him my complete
    CAT Scan and x rays of my back, but he also needed a side view.
    
    Well when I first injured my back I did have these taken. So I signed
    a release form and made a follow up the next day with the Chiropractor.
    
    Next day the Doctor tells me he got the X-Rays from the hospital,
    and told me I have a very healthy pair! Ha Ha Somehow the hospital
    send over the wrong X-Rays. The Doctor said it took a while to figure
    out what he was looking at.. Course the whole office got a kick
    out of that one.
    
    Cal.
    

    the doc forgot his watch - why do you think so? Does it tick?
    pony
     +
    

    
    -1
    
    No.. but when the big hand points to twelve!!  :^)
                                   

    
    	Well, I guess I must be one lucky person!! I had my vasectomy
    	done 18 years ago and can honestly say I NEVER felt any pain
    	what so ever. I had expected to feel some pain once the local
    	wore off, but felt great, no pain at all. It was by far the
    	best move I'd ever made, no longer will I ever worry about
    	fathering an unwanted child!! My wife at the time (now ex),
    	had thought about a tubial, but to us it seemed too extreme
    	to have her submit to and alot less for the vasectomy. That,
    	plus the cost of a visectomy is alot lower.
    
    	A vote for vasectomy.....
    
    	G_B

    I'm looking for a doctor in the Colorado Springs/Denver area who
    does tubal ligations (with cauterization) without general anesthesia
    - just use a local or light sedation.  Does anybody have any
    recommendations in this area?
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    Paula

PJ, did you try Dr. Trudy Skiles?  If not her, you might want to try
Dr. Robert Hahn.  They are both Ob/Gyn's.  I don't know much about TL's,
but I know these folks are good doctors.  If they don't do it, I'm sure
you could get a good recommendation from them for someone who would do a
good job.
            Carol

	 Just reading thru here, can any of you out there that have
	 had a tubal ligation write me a little note about what the
	 exact procedure is, or give me a pointer somewhere?

	 I have a lot of problems on the Pill and have just recently
	 found a lead on a doctor that will perform a tubal ligation
	 (after discussing options thoroughly of course).

	 I do NOT want children, I'm just not the maternal type of
	 person and I just don't have the patience required for such
	 an undertaking/responsibility of a child.  There seems to
	 just be a total lack of desire to parent a child, so a
	 viable solution to me and my sanity/health is a tubal
	 ligation.


	 BUT, this is the person that woke up crying hysterically from
	 having her wisdom teeth pulled.....I'm scared to death of
	 surgery.  Could someone please give me a little more of an
	 idea of what is involved in a tubal ligation?


	 thanks.


	 kath

    quick reply kath,
    
    I have to go make dinner, I'll write more later.
    
    I had the operation 15 years ago and it was much easier than
    having my wisdom teeth removed by surgery, tho harder than having
    the other two pulled last month.
    
    material following the formfeed may not be for the squeemish
    
    
    Basically I became part of the process, I was awake for the surgery
    and looked at my insides...through the fiber optic tube, that to me 
    got rid of a lot of the scareynesses.
    
    Bonnie

	 Oh Bonnie!  you're making me squirm (I told you I was bad at
	 this......)


	 I suppose I'll need to get someone to hold my hand afterward
	 when I woke up, but other than that, I'd be fine.....but no
	 one could pay me enough to be awake during the surgery.



	 kath

    
    
    I had a tubal ligation several years ago, Kath (damn, the things
    we admit to in NOTES!)....forget getting someone to hold your
    hand afterward.  You need someone to wait on you hand and foot!
    
    Actually it's not a bad operation, but "major surgery" has such
    an ominous ring to it, might as well use the situation to full
    advantage!
    
    Now, do you want to know the actual medical procedure?  Or do you
    want to know how those of us who have been thru it, felt before,
    during and after?
    
    I can tell you this-I'll pick tubal ligation over the dentist any
    day!
    
    Deb
    

>    hand afterward.  You need someone to wait on you hand and foot!

	 Ahhh...one could only wish!
	      
>    want to know how those of us who have been thru it, felt before,
>    during and after?

	 This is what I want to know.......(I know, I'm a baby,
	 right?)  "Pain" and "surgery" and "needles" are words that
	 make me shiver and squirm.     

	 I want to know what you felt throughout the entire process
	 (if you don;t mind)

	 kat    

    there are some pointers here in 177.3......but if anyone has more
    procedural information please share...
    
    -Jody
    

    Kath,
    
    My sister had one done when she finished having all the children
    that she wanted.
    
    However, I do not know your age, but if you are under 30 it seldom
    can be reversed.  I had no desire to parent until I was almost 30.
    
    So might end up with an SO who would like a child(ren) and that is
    a large step.  
    
    However if your life has settled to the point that you KNOW you will
    never regret it, I have heard it as being quite painless -  certainly
    less painful than wisdom teeth (when I had 2 removed I literally went
    into shock and passed out cold in the dentist's office) - I empathize
    with wanting to know more.
    
    Good luck on what you decide.  BTW my daughter at 20 has sworn she will
    not have children - only time will tell how she will deal with it.
    
    Cathy

    
    
    My surgery was several years ago, so the memories are hazy.  What I
    recall are:
    
    1)  Being very apprehensive from the day I scheduled the surgery until
        the operation was finally behind me
    
    2)  Because of past experiences, I was most terrified of the I.V. in-
        sertion.  As it turned out, the surgeon numbed that area of my
        hand and I barely felt it (ie, worst fears are rarely realized)
    
    3)  I could feel the anesthesia traveling up my arm, to my shoulder,
        at which point I went under.  A very unnerving sensation.
    
    4)  Coming out of the anesthesia was very difficult.  It was similar
        to waking up, and not being able to quite reach consciousness.
        Part of me wanted to go back to sleep until the anesthesia had
        worn off completely; the other part knew that I could process it
        out of my system faster if I made an effort to be mentally and
        physically active (under limited circumstances, of course)
    
    5)  I was not in pain, but was very stiff and sore all over, I would
        guess from laying in one position for so long.  You will gain new
        appreciation for your abdominal muscles!  I had a terrible time
        just shifting position, because I could not use those muscles.
    
    6)  My surgery was done on an out patient basis, so I went home in
        just a couple of hours.
    
    7)  Recover from that point was easy.  I don't recall any pain,
        although I was very very hungry!! Don't recall being physically
        limited in my movement.  I think I just took it easy for a day
        or so.
    
    
    Interesting enough, I had a similar type of surgery a year before
    the ligation.  That experience was just the opposite.  The I.V.
    insertion was difficult, painful and arduous.  The anesthesia knocked
    me out so fast that I had no idea it was happening.  I woke up in
    great pain (and I don't mean to imply that you will be in pain, I'm
    sure the pain at this time was due to the internal damage before
    the surgery) and it took me 3 weeks to recover.
    
    In summary, I don't think tubal ligation is a piece of cake, but it
    really isn't anything to dread.  I haven't noticed any physical dif-
    ferences (my periods are the same, etc).
    
    Good luck.   
    
    Deb
    
    

    Regarding surgery in general...one of the risks associated with having
    surgery is having to have general anesthesia.  It seems that some of
    the women responding to this note went through the tubal ligation using
    a local, and others opted for general anesthesia.  Local anesthesia
    would reduce the risks of adverse side effects.
    
    I went through arthroscopic surgery on my knee a few years ago and
    insisted on a local because I wanted to do everything possible to
    minimize the risk of having to have surgery.  I would imagine that the
    fiber optic scope used in a tubal ligation is similar to the one used
    in arthroscopic surgery.  Between the local and a very slow drip of
    some sort of sedative, I was sort of awake and sort of dozed through
    most the surgery and it was fine.  
    
    More than anything else I would urge you to have a thorough
    conversation with the Anesthesiologist to determine what makes the most
    sense for you.  Good luck.  Surgery can be a scarey proposition but
    being fully informed helps to minimize the fears.
    
    Laura
    

    kathy,

    I would urge you to hold off.  Someone else pointed out that you don't
    know what may happen in your life as you get older.

    For Example:

    I have a couple of kids at home right now...  I *don't* want anymore,
    at times I can't even stand the ones I have :-)...  If I had to do it
    all over again, I would have never of had them (if I only knew then,
    what I know now syndrome)...  I also have no immediate plans to get
    remarried. However, maybe someday in the future, I might change my
    mind on the remarriage issue (if the right guy came along, and really
    wanted to)...  what if he REALLY wanted a baby?  If I *really* love
    him, then perhaps (perhaps not!!), I might want to have a baby with
    him...  


    With the future as wide open as that, why take a chance now?

    
    Kath, you may find it hard to get a tubal at your age. They are
    usually reluctant to do anyone under 30.

    Personal opinion: Don't do it just yet. I am childless by chance not
    choice and even at age 39 find myself unable to go through with
    getting sterilized just "in case". It's not likely I'll ever have a
    child  but to lock out the possibilty completely is more than I can
    do right now. Things change in life and irreversable decisions
    should not be taken too soon. liesl

	 RE: (.35)  Gale
	 

>    wanted to)...  what if he REALLY wanted a baby?  If I *really* love
>    him, then perhaps (perhaps not!!), I might want to have a baby with
>    him...  

         If he *REALLY* wanted a baby, our baby, and nothing else
         would do, then he would not be the right man for me.

	 Because.....

>    I would urge you to hold off.  Someone else pointed out that you don't
>    know what may happen in your life as you get older.

	 If I *REALLY* wanted a baby after this, there would always be
	 the realistic option of adopting.  In fact, *IF* I ever
	 wanted a child, I would RATHER adopt than go thru the 9
	 months and the birth.	 
	 
>    With the future as wide open as that, why take a chance now?

	 Because

	 1) I'm a very impatient person, I could not handle 9 months
	 of being pregnant.

	 2) I'm not "taking a chance" as such....Adoption of a child,
	 *IF* I should want one, is a very real issue with me.

	 3) I've never felt any desires, EVER, in my life, to have a
	 child.  That means, I've gone thru 24 years of life not
	 wanting one (when I was 10 I told my mother that if my
	 husband wanted a baby, HE would carry it and HE would birth
	 it).  In another 24 years, I will be way too old to consider
	 it.  I don't anticipate my mind being changed.

	 4)  The Pill is giving me a LOT of problems.  My cervix and
	 my vagina are VERY sensitive to the least bit of infection.
	 Sponges, diaphrams, IUDs etc are out because of the abrasion
	 they would cause.  I'm allergic to most spermacides.....about
	 the only thing I am NOT allergic to is a rubber, which means
	 the BC is on the shoulders of the man, and I'm not about to
	 put my life in someone else's hands.


	 In other words, losing the chance to birth a baby is nothing
	 to me.  I takes away the worry of wondering whether I'm
	 pregnant or not when I miss a period, it takes away the side
	 effects I've had with the Pill, it doesn't interfere with my
	 future should I decide to have a child, because i would
	 rather adopt.

	 Why should I NOT have a tubal ligation?  It solves a lot of
	 my problems and doesn't create hardly any, does it?


	 kath

>>>	 which means
>>>	 the BC is on the shoulders of the man, and I'm not about to
>>>	 put my life in someone else's hands.
    
    Interesting comment.  You don't have to have sex with him if he isn't
    wearing a condom, so how is it in his hands alone?  At any rate,
    condoms do break and not having a backup there (i.e. spermicide or
    diaphragm) can lead to undesirable consequences.
    
    This is a classic example of what I was discussing with a co-worker a
    few weeks ago: what if you can't take the pill and are allergic to
    the most common spermicides?  You're pretty much SOL ... sad when
    you think about it.  People shouldn't have to resort to such draconian
    measures as vasectomies or tubal ligations.

RE: .38

>    Interesting comment.  You don't have to have sex with him if he isn't
>    wearing a condom, so how is it in his hands alone?

	 I would never let it be in the hands of a man alone.  I think
	 BC is a joint responsibility.  True, (and I've known men like
	 this), if he refuses to use a condom, I don't have to have
	 sex with him, but, as you say....
	 
>    At any rate,
>    condoms do break and not having a backup there (i.e. spermicide or
>    diaphragm) can lead to undesirable consequences.

	 This is another reason I wouls never leave it in his hands
	 alone.
	    
>    the most common spermicides?  You're pretty much SOL ... sad when
>    you think about it.  People shouldn't have to resort to such draconian
>    measures as vasectomies or tubal ligations.

	 Yes, it is unfortunate.  Currently I'm on the Pill, but it's
	 starting to cause more problems than it is worth.  For a
	 woman that eventually wants children, it's very sad indeed.
	 For me, it seems to just be another "option" at the moment.


	 kath

    With no desire to persuade or dissuade anyone, I will offer my own
    experience.  When I was married at age 22, I knew with absolute
    certainty that I had no interest in ever having children.  At age
    25,  I went through the preliminary interviews for a vasectomy, but
    somehow it was never convenient enough to get around to having the
    operation done.  Two years later, I had come around completely, and
    Lynne and I decided we really did want a child.  Today, I have an
    eight year old daughter, and I literally cannot conceive how
    different (and, in my opinion, poorer) our life would have been
    without her.
    
    So, there are some of us whose inalterable inclinations have turned
    out to be more changable than we expected.  Your milage may vary...
    
    	-Neil

    But as Kathy has pointed out, and I have experienced, parenting
    is not necessarily of the body.
    
    I had my tubes tied at the age of 30. At that point I'd had
    one pregnancy, and one early miscarriage. My pregnancy ended
    in a C-section becuase I failed to establish normal labor after
    being in intermittant labour from Tuesday to Sat am. (Contractions
    every twenty minutes, even if they aren't severe are not a picknic!)
    We also had two other, adopted children at that time, who were 1 and
    2 and our 'home grown' son was 5. I chose to be sterilized when I 
    found out that I could no longer use my IUD and the Dr didn't want
    me back on the pill because I had varicosities that were the result
    of my pregnancy. I talked extensively with my Dr. about my reasons
    and motivations and his experience with the operation. (He told me
    afterwards that I'd asked all the right questions.)
    
    Since that operation we have added two more kids to our family, again
    by adoption.
    
    I have had every bit as much satisfaction in parenting the later 4
    as I did in the child I bore.
    
    I think that if kath has made her mind up, that her choice is a
    reasonable one. If she wishes to parent later on in life, there is��
    no lack of kids needing parents.
    
    Bonnie

    Kath,
    
    I had the TL at age 32.  I knew I didn't want any more children, not
    even if Robert Redford appeared at my door (^'  
    
    I went into hospital on the Friday morning, was operated on at 11.00am,
    don't remember anything at all until I came around.  Now, I have a very
    *high* tolerance to pain, so when I did come around all I felt was a
    bit sore, dissolving stitches along the pubic hair line, but was up
    walking around the hospital grounds that afternoon.  I went home on the
    Sunday and was back at work on the Monday.  That was a mistake, so went
    home to bed for two days of R & R, and was back on Wednesday.
    
    I too couldn't tolerate the pill and had had the IUD.  I didn't suffer
    any feeling of remorse, guilt or anything associated with getting
    pregnant again.  Of course when I make up my mind that's it!!
    
    I can't tell you there is no pain, because I don't know what you feel
    and how much, but for me it was relatively painless.  
    
    Good luck,
    
    ..dale
    

    
    kath,
    
    :-) your comments at age 10 sounded like mine!!  I always told
    my mother...never no way...if I ever think I may want kids (heaven
    forbid) then I'll adopt.  No way will I suffer 9 months when I
    don't have to!
    
    Age 10 I said it, and age 20, and still now at nearly 35.  So,
    sometimes those opinions STAY the same!  
    
    However, finding a doctor to do it is something else altogether.  
    If you are having trouble with the pill, and have spermocide allegies
    then maybe you can get one to do the surgery on you.
    
    Best of luck!
    
    deb
    

    A comment from someone almost in the same boat as you....
    
    I can never remember a time when I've actually wanted a child around
    24 hrs/day.  When I was in school I said to myself I'm not even going
    to worry about it until I'm 30.  And now, at age 23, I still feel the
    same way.  What scares me is that 30 isn't as far away as it used to
    be. =)
    
    I guess I'm lucky because I have had no problems with the pill at all.
    I don't know what I'd do if I couldn't take it.  I'm not sure that
    I'd go for a TL because I can't say how I'll feel in ten years and 
    maybe I'll get a surge of maternal instinct or something.
    
    But then again, I've never had problems with birth control and I
    haven't had Kathy's life so I don't really feel I can tell her what 
    to do.  
    
    What I can say is this:
    
    Kath, if you really believe that having the tubal ligation will make
    your life easier and happier, you should think about what will be
    better in the future and don't dwell on how miserable you might feel
    during the recovery.  I mean you may feel sick for a week or a month,
    but compared to the relief you may feel in the years to come is it
    really a big deal?  When I had my wisdom teeth removed, I just had a 
    local anasthetic and it really wasn't a pleasant experience but it
    was only bothersome for about a week, and now I don't get mouth
    infections anymore.
    
    And FWIW, my mom had her tubes tied after my brother was born.  She was
    only in the hospital for maybe two or three days, and I distinctly
    remember that when she came home she showed me her band-aid.  That's
    all she had on her stomach was a big band-aid.  I'm not sure if it's
    the same now.  
    
    Lisa

    I also have one daughter and decided that I did not want to have anymore.
    Because I felt it was unfair to ask my husband to have a vasectomy
    ( I am the one who doesn't want anymore children) I decided that
    I would have a tubal ligation.  I went to my gynecologist.  Told
    him I didn't want anymore children and could not continue to live
    with the worry from month to month as to whether I would be pregnant
    or not.  I can not tolerate BCP or IUD either.  He said OK.  I went
    into the hospital for early morning surgery.  Got out that afternoon.
    Was uncomfortable for about a week.  Now I am fine,  I am happier.
    If this is what you want and you are sure of it. THEN DO IT.  The
    peace of mind you will have from doing what you want will make you
    a happier person.

Kath, 
One comment on...

>	 they would cause.  I'm allergic to most spermacides.....about
>	 the only thing I am NOT allergic to is a rubber, which means
>	 the BC is on the shoulders of the man, and I'm not about to
>	 put my life in someone else's hands.

Just because he is the one who actually *wears* the condom doesn't mean
that the condom is a form of BC that is "in his hands" and not yours.
You can buy them (which means you get to choose the ones you like), you
can bring them out at the "right time", and you can put them on (which
can be a lot of fun!) which means that, literally, they are "in *your*
hands".   If you think about it, the condom is just a piece of plastic
*between* your cervix and his penis.  The *between* part means it is no
more "his birth control" than it is "your birth control".  Really,
a condom and a diaphragm do exactly the same things, the only difference
being whose body it *starts* on!

Anyway, as for whether you can decide now not to have babies, frankly
I look at how much I have changed in the last 15 years of my life and I
*know* there is no way in heaven or hell that I am qualified to guess
how I will feel 15 years in the future!  I think I can better understand
the feelings and motivations of my friends now than myself in 15 years.
But, as you say, adoption is a real alternative should you change your
mind.  coming from one who has been raised with adoption (tho) not adopted,
I don't see any reason why that should be considered a "lesser alternative"
than birth!

(Also, I would never consider getting myself "spayed" at such an early age...
but I grew up with the reality [in my mind] that I was infertile, and so
I got very used to the idea that I may never give birth to children, and it
never bothered me, even during my phases where I was sure I wanted kids.
[I thought I was infertile because 1) my mother was given an unknown drug
during her pregnancy that we thought might be DES, which causes infertility
in the fetus, and 2) my gyn told me at 15 that my periods were irregular
because I hadn't started ovulating...when there were still irregular at
20, I figured if I hadn't started ovulating by then I never would!  Since 
then I have discovered that 1) the drug was probably not DES, and 2) there
is probably some other reason for irregular menstruation.])


D!

    re:  "spayed"


    FWIW....The above terminology is not used in human beings.  

    
    What is more important to consider is what *you* the person
    who owns the body wants to do with the reproductive mechanism
    connected to it.  

    One option that has not been covered is the new female condoms.
    Are they available for general use yet????  Would this be a
    viable option????  Double protected if the male uses a condom
    also in case one breaks!!!  8*)   Kind of leads one to think of
    burning rubber????   <gee, that's bad>

    justme....jacqui

    

>     <<< Note 177.46 by TLE::D_CARROLL "It's time, it's time to heal..." >>>

>Just because he is the one who actually *wears* the condom doesn't mean
>that the condom is a form of BC that is "in his hands" and not yours.
>You can buy them (which means you get to choose the ones you like), you
>can bring them out at the "right time", and you can put them on (which
>can be a lot of fun!) which means that, literally, they are "in *your*
>hands".  

	 Yes, D!, I feel the same way you do, but remember, that
	 there are men out there (and i've run into this and refused
	 sex because of it) that will refuse to wear a condom.

	 And it's a catch-22 anyway, because condoms aren't as
	 reliable, so that would mean that I would STILL have to deal
	 with the spermacide issue, which is not a viable choice.
	 

RE: irregular menstration and mother taking a drug

	 This is the exact reason I was put on the Pill to begin with.
	 My mother took a certain hormone pill while pregnant (sorry,
	 don't remember the name) with me, and hence it has not only
	 screwed up my menstrual cycle, but also can be linked to my
	 numerous infections and sensitivity to infections.

	 

	 kath

    The following questions are from a member of our community who wishes
    to remain anonymous at this time.

    							=maggie
    ====================================================================

    Has anyone gone through reversal of tubal ligation?  What were the
    cost involved?  Was the surgery successful and if not were there
    other options?  Is there any insurance or financing available for
    this purpose?  Does DEC cover you short term will you are recovering
    from the surgery?  What referral resources did you use?  What was
    the recovery time?  
    
    Thanks in advance for any answers to my questions.