Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    
    I always seemed to have that same complaint.  In my case I had a
    husband who was out of work half the time and still wouldn't offer
    to help out around the house.  Every time I complained about it,
    he said, "all you had to do was ask me", but that didn't even work.
    I finally got sick of doing it all and began laundering MY clothes,
    cooking MY meals, washing MY dishes, and generally just taking care
    of ME.  
    
    I hesitate in suggesting this, but as far as the rest of the house
    is concerned, you might just want to let it all go (if you can stand
    it) and see how long it takes before he notices.  When he starts
    complaining, you now have something to bargain with.
    

The tactic I have taken with my teenagers is to assign them
responsibilities, and if they don't follow through on them they have to
face the consequences.  They are responsible for washing their own
clothes -- if they don't they have nothing to wear.  They are assigned
to cook, do dishes, etc on certain days of the week.  If they don't, I
will not do it for them.  I can fix myself a peanut butter sandwich. It
can be difficult, because fundamentally I care more than they do about
the state of the house.  They don't seem to mind if the bathroom smells,
but I do, and I confess there are lots of times when I break down and do
things because I can't stand it.  Since they are children, I can exert
some parental authority in assigning consequences to some acts: if the
chores aren't done, no TV or whatever until it is.  With a husband, this
is a little harder, although I suppose there are other "treats" you can
withhold -- the least of which is pretending that you are happy with the 
situation.  He is essentially behaving like a child -- expecting not to
have to take responsbility for caring for himself and his environment. 
You will have to train him out of this, like you would a child.
Many men get away with having a "mom" for life who will indulge them in
avoiding these kinds of adult responsibilities.  Few women get this
option, though, and because they are trained to be more socially
reponsible tend to lapse unconsciously into playing a responsible parent
role when faced with this kind of behavior.  You are doing him no favor
in allowing him to avoid the responsibilities of growing up, though.

    Well I would second Marge's suggestion, hire someone to clean the
    house. When my kids were younger I would hire local teenagers
    one day a week to come in and sweep and wash and dust etc. I'd
    also hire them extra on weekends in the fall and spring to do
    deep cleaning, windows etc. I found that teenagers are willing to clean
    for lower rates than the commerical agencies as well. Paying them more 
    than the going rate for baby sitting helps to make the the job attractive.
    
    May I also suggest that your husband may not see the need to clean
    every room in the house even once a week, especially if the room
    hasn't been used all week. If a person doesn't see/feel that something
    *needs* to be done, then they aren't all that willing to spend time
    on it.

    Currently my whole family takes part in the cleaning. The teenagers
    are responsible for keeping the main rooms picked up during the
    week, they rotate turns weekly on the downstairs bathrooms, I do
    the upstairs bathroom, we all take turns on dishes and my husband
    vacuums. Each child is responsible for their own room. I still get
    after the two youngest to clean up but the older two clean (or
    don't clean) on their own. Unless we are having company the state
    of their bedrooms is their own business.
    
    Personally I refuse to spend my weekeneds doing nothing but cleaning.
    Tho that does mean that I live in a house that is not immaculate
    (except when the grandparents come to visit!)
    
    Bonnie
    

    re .1 & .4
    
    I've threatened to hire someone before, but I feel like I'd have
    to be at home when they are there to oversee what is going on. 
    I'm hesitant to let someone come in my house when no one is at home.
    Also, my mother in law keeps telling me that she wants to clean
    houses instead of going back to work full time.  So, I'd obviously
    have to hire her to avoid any conflict and honestly, I don't want
    her doing my house work.  She only half way does anything.  She
    had a cleaning service once before and people quit calling her back
    after two or three times.  She is also really nosy and would go
    through everything I own.  But, I know it would cause real problems
    if I hired someone else and would probably hurt her feelings and
    I don't want to do that.  
    
    re .2 & .3
    
    The thing is, he does do the majority of the yard work, he paints
    and fixes anything that needs to be fixed and works on both of our
    vehicles.  So, I don't really know how to go about not doing anything
    for him, because he might decide to quit mowing the grass and not
    change the oil in the car, etc.  But, that's another thing, I don't
    mind helping him do yard work, etc.  When we remodeled the bathroom;
    I was right there beside him.  When we painted the outside of the
    house, I was out there, too.  I guess that gets to me too.  I don't
    complain when stuff like that needs to be done, I get out there
    and do it.  That's what I'd like for him to do when stuff *INSIDE*
    the house needs to be done.  
    
    Virginia
    wants to 

    Are there people out there who have hired people to clean?
    I would be interested in their experiences and recommendations/
    helpful ideas.  Each year the idea of someone else doing a job
    that I don't find fun sounds better and better.

    a few things:
    re: .5,
    
    I understand what you're saying about your husband doing lots of
    outside work. Would it help if you could keep a log of the chores that
    you both do and how long it takes to do them? If it turned out that you
    were spending about the same amount of time working on the house, you
    might feel differently about asking your husband to contribute to
    housework. On the other hand, if it turns out that your husband does
    lots less work than you do (given that you help him with his chores),
    he might listen to you more carefully.
    
    As for not hiring your mother-in-law, would it be possible for you
    to say that you don't want to mix business with family life?
    
    
    re: .6
    
    I've hired several people to clean my house. For a while, I had high
    school students. They did an adequate job, but were somewhat sloppy and
    unprofessional. When I last hired someone, I made a list of all the
    chores that I wanted done. I then looked in a "shopper paper" (the one
    I used was "Action Unlimited") for cleaning ads. And I called the more
    interesting looking places, and interviewed over the phone. I asked
    about prices, what chores they don't like doing, and told them what I
    wanted done. I asked one person to come to the house, I called her
    references (they were glowing), and hired her. And I've been happy
    with her work. 
    
    Hope this helps
    Liz 

    I'm in much the same situation as you are and this is how I've been
    able to reconcile it in my mind . . .
    My husband, too, does all the outside work; therefore, I felt
    comfortable about feeling that the inside work was mine.  The thing
    is too is that I'm a perfectionist and I tend to want things a little
    cleaner, more often, than most people.  Now, I know that this is
    my "problem", so to speak, as my husband is very neat and clean.
    So, I've come to accept the fact that if I want something done,
    I'm going to have to do it because I tend to want it done before
    it desperately needs it (which, it seems, is when most possible
    do housework) and I happen to like the way I do things better than
    others.
    
    With this problem laid to rest, the method I've used successfully
    for the majority of our married life is to do a little bit at a
    time during the week, such that, by the weekend, everything is done
    (for the most part) and our weekends are free.  For example, in
    the morning, I'll dust one (emphasize just 1 so you don't get
    overwhelmed and so it doesn't take long at all) room or vacume 1
    room or whatever.  And the same thing throughout the week . . .
    
    I'm not only in a better mood come the weekend - looking forward
    to it as you should - but my husband and I have so much more time
    together - to sleep in late, just relax, go out to breakfast, or
    do things!
    
    I, too, am the first one right beside him when it comes to doing
    painting, etc. but, hey, that's my problem if I want to help out.
    Besides, think of all the calories you're burning with all this
    work!
    
    Hope this helps,
    Martha

    I'm afraid I tend to sympathize with the husband in this case. 
    There's nothing much worse than feeling like relaxing on your day
    off and having somebody else nag you about doing some chore which
    *they* think is a necessity of life but that you don't.
    
    I agree with Bonnie in .4, I refuse to spend my entire weekend
    cleaning.  I work all week and when the weekend arrives I like to
    enjoy myself.  
    
    I think one problem in people living together, whether married or
    as roommates, is that people have different ideas of how clean a
    house has to be and often a house has to be cleaned.  I am not a
    slob but I am not a Felix Unger either.  I don't have to have my
    bathroom floor so clean you could serve a meal on it.
    
    At the present time, I live with my boyfriend and he does *all*
    the housecleaning.  The reason this happens is that he thinks the
    house needs to be cleaned longer before I think it needs to be cleaned
    so he winds up doing it all.  Now, if he has to have a spotless
    house that is his choice, and while I find it pleasant not to have
    to do housecleaning, I don't feel guilty because it's his choice.
     He's doing it more for himself than for me.  He's the one who has
    to have a spotless house.  We each do our own laundry and he does
    the cooking (also by choice).  
    
    My ex-husband was much sloppier than me.  So, when I lived with
    him I wound up doing all the housework because it would get to the
    point where I couldn't stand it and would have to clean the house.
     I guess, to me, the bottom line, is, that people who have a compulsion
    to live in a spotless house, that is cleaned from top to bottom
    every week whether it needs it or not, have no right to impose that
    standard on somebody else.
    
    Lorna
    

    I agree with several responses about trying to hire someone,
    if you can afford it and it doesn't cause problems with your
    mother-in-law.  Although the woman who cleans our house
    doesn't do as thorough a job as I like to think I would, it
    gets *done* and all I'm out is some money.  Churches often
    know of people who do house-cleaning; I hadn't thought of
    high-school students.  In my case, I asked around, and the
    woman I hired ws recommended to me by several people.

    I also agree with the idea of trying to do a little bit at a
    time.  My parents have trained themselves into the habit of
    picking up newspapers, books, whatever they've gotten out,
    every evening when they get ready for bed.  Kind of like
    checking to make sure all the doors are locked.  I once made
    a "schedule" for laundry, so that I did one load of laundry
    each weeknight, towels one night, whites one night, permanent
    press another night, etc.  But I never figured out whether I
    was *never* doing laundry or *always* doing it!

    Along similar lines, I got terribly frustrated with my SO's
    lawn-mowing strategy early this spring.  His strategy was
    generally to put off doing it until it *had* to be done, by
    which point it was long enough it needed to be bagged, and I
    generally helped with bagging because it's a lot faster with
    both of us doing it.  I just got sick of it, and rather than
    nag him about mowing as often as I thought he "should," I
    offered to trade him mowing for two ostensibly lighter
    chores:  weed-wacking (which doesn't need doing every time
    the lawn gets mowed) and laundry (which has the advantage of
    keeping him away from the pollen, to which he is slightly
    allergic).  He accepted eagerly and it's been an interesting
    learning experience for both of us.

    Other miscellany:  grocery shopping we do together because we
    each hate it and we'd rather have company in misery. (And I
    get distracted and take forever when I go alone.)  We also
    cook and clean up together, fixing dinner is our time to tell
    each other the piddly details of what work was like that day.
    Generally he fixes the main dish and I fix the salad and
    bread or veggie (because I dislike cooking and view the main
    dish as more work) and he straightens up while I wash up.
    But these are only generally speaking--sometimes one or the
    other of us comes home completely dead-tired, and the other
    one does most of the meal fixing and cleaning that night.

    Those times when chores have come between us, I have
    generally been most successful at solving the problem by
    taking responsibility for it.  When I got frustrated with our
    difficulty in keeping the house as clean as I wanted, I
    looked into hiring someone else.  When I got frustrated with
    the lawn-mowing, I suggested an acceptable trade.  I did,
    however, have to be careful to do these things so that I
    wasn't riding rough-shod over John.  Hope some of this helps!

    -- Linda

    Virginia,
    
    I have to agree with Martha's suggestion.  
    
    My husband and I have only been married for 2 years and we have had 
    thsi problem from day one.  I could never understand how most women
    could work and keep their house clean and neat until I watched how 
    they did it.  My one friend would start a load of laundry in the
    morning while she was getting ready for work and every evening she 
    would do another chore.  I decided to try her method, although it
    takes getting used to, it does work (getting up earlier in the a.m.
    is sometimes tough).
    
    After lots of gripes to my Hubby about him not helping with the
    housework we made a deal.  He does the work on the outside of the
    house and I do the inside (at the time I forgot that the majority
    of the work on the outside of the house is in the summer and winters
    are almost maintenance free, with the exception of shoveling).  
    I thought that I had gotten the bum end of the deal, but the outside
    work is alot harder and more involved.  Try this it might work for you.
    
    I don't know what your Husband does but mine is a General Contractor
    and that involves alot of physical work, he is exhausted in the
    evening and I feel that he deserves to relax.
    
    Good Luck,
    Bethany
                 

    
    	My husband is pretty good when it comes to house cleaning. 
    When we first lived together he didn't do a thing.  I think he was
    use to having his mother pick up after him.  He couldn't even pick
    up after himself - leaving clothes here and there, leaving glasses
    and dishes here and there, it used to really get me *issed off.
    After we got married things really didn't change.  I was always
    telling he that he didn't do anything around the house, that he
    was lazy and all he ever wanted to do was watch tv, that he wanted
    me to do everything for him from cooking him something to eat to
    picking up his dirty clothes.  I didn't fall in love with this guy
    to get married and then spend the rest of my life picking up after
    him...  
    
    Eventually things started to get better.  I don't know what made
    him change - it was probably all the *itching.  Now I come home
    from work and he has the dishes done or he is cooking supper or
    vaccumming.  When he has days off of work - that's the best - he
    does everything from cleaning the bathroom to polishing the furniture.
    The only thing that I haven't gotten him to do yet, is the laundry.
    Once in a while I have to get mad at him to do something,
    but most of the time he's great!!  I think he must have finally
    realized that our marriage is 50/50, even when it comes down to
    the housework.  We both work 40 hours a week and it only seems fair
    that we should both have to do housework.  

    The only thing I can recommend to you is that you try to get your
    husband to understand that he should help out with the housework.
    It isn't fair that the woman should have to do it all.
    
    Good Luck!
    

re: laundry

I absolutely hate doing laundry. I refuse to go anywhere near his laundry
so if he runs out..oh well. For the most part we share everything else.
He tends to clean up the kitchen most of the time and I tend to end up with
the bathroom because I hate the smell and he doesn't seem to mind it. So far 
I haven't been able to convince him to change the sheets, but then again, I 
usually toss them into his dirty clothes so he ends up washing them :-).

Jenna

    
    	I don't think it is unreasonable for you to ask for help with
    	the housework. I work all day as most of us do and I do all
    	the outside work at home as well. Maintaining a house with
    	two children is a never ending battle and I help out my wife
    	as much as I can. The tactics you use in order to get his help
    	is another thing but you both live there and it is a joint
    	responsibility.
    
    	John

    I must agree with .13 (assuming that you can afford it, of course).
    You owe your mother-in-law no explanations.  You DO owe yourself
    peace of mind, so do whatever it takes to obtain it.
    
    Barb

When I first moved in with Joe I _insisted_ that we map out chores so that I
felt it was equitable. I was an only child, and had a lot of adjusting to do,
but I saw this one coming. It worked out fine.

Lots of things have changed since then. Around April, I suddenly realized we
were both bitching at each other for not working hard enough! So, we sat down
and mapped it out again. We made some interesting tradeoffs, and both felt a
lot better. We're lucky in that we very rarely hate the same chore.
	Mez

    We hired a cleaning person once a week over two years ago and it
    was one of the best things we ever did for our marriage.  I just
    wish we could afford to have her come in twice a week!  (Is that
    really decadent?)  She does when we're at work, and it's so 
    wonderful to come home to a clean house.
    
    I highly recommend it to anyone.  Can't you do it, but not let your
    mother-in-law know?  (Let her think you're superwoman.)
    
    Re laundry:  We each wash a load of our own clothes when we need
    it.  
    
    I generally do the "other" laundry and the mid-week cleanup, but
    Paul does most of the outside work.  Sometimes I feel like I'm doing
    Everything, and sometimes I feel guilty and as though he's doing
    everything...so I figure it must be working out pretty evenly.
    
    I say hire someone, and at least give up the things _you_ can live
    without and he can't...like his laundry.
    
    T.
    

    re .18
    
    I can't hire someone to do the housework without my mother-in-law
    knowing it, because we live across the street from her (BIG mistake,
    don't ever do this).  Also, I know she could use the money and it
    doesn't seem fair to pay someone else when I COULD (if I wanted
    to) pay her to do it.  
    
    Like someone mentioned earlier, my husband also does physical, manual
    labor during the day, and he also holds this over my head, since
    "I've got a desk job, I shouldn't be tired at the end of the day",
    etc.  I think I'm going to start making both of us a list of things
    to do and see who does the most.  Maybe then I can prove to him
    that I DO MORE than he thinks I do.  I've been thinking too that
    maybe the things I consider work he just considers part of everyday
    existence; like fixing lunches, making a pot of coffee, washing
    dishes, cooking, changing the sheets on the bed, making up the bed.
    Maybe he just looks at these things as things that aren't any big
    deal and I look at them as work.  
    
    Thanks for all the suggestions.
    
    Virginia

>    "I've got a desk job, I shouldn't be tired at the end of the day",

Well, if he really puts it that way, you might want to point out to him that he
doesn't know how it feels, so he'll have to take your word for it. You know
best how you experience life, and him saying how it 'should' effect won't
change how it does.
	Mez

    re .20
    
    Mez,
    
    Thank you!!!  That's my sentiments exactly!!!
    
    Virginia

    I agree with Marge.
    
    If your mother in law has a problem with you hiring someone else,
    be honest and direct. Tell her that you uncomfortable with her as
    a "hired" person and with her cleaning your house. You feel that
    you would be placed in the position of having to answer questions
    that are none of her business. If she can't live with that, tough!
    If hubby can't live with it, then tell him to get off his ass and
    pitch in. You should agree to do some of this during the week. I
    couldn't stand the thought of damp, sweaty clothes collecting who
    knows what for a week or longer before cleaning.
    
    Warning....hire only an insured, bonded cleaning company. High school
    kids not under supervision can cause a lot of unintended problems
    by cleaning with wrong materials etc.
    
    I clean, cook, do laundry (except perm. press - My wife threatens
    to sew my fingers together because of wrinkles) and anything else.
    I can't climb or go up high so my wife does the roof work and ladder
    stuff over 10-12 feet. 
    
    Ken

So, can someone recommend a good (honest/reliable/competent) person or
service?  The person who has cleaned my place for the last 8 years
just got a "real" job.  (I live in Arlington, MA).

Martin.

    Speaking for myself, the reason I generally don't volunteer to
    help vacuum or other cleaning stuff is that I don't see/believe
    that it needs done. Now with other things there often isn't a
    problem. I do almost all of the laundry for example. There is
    a case where it's obvious why and when it needs to be done.
    
    Some times I hear my wife say "This house is a mess." Then I look
    around for the mess and don't see it. Perhaps there is an extra
    sense woman have that allows them to see dirt that men can't. :-)
    
    I also do almost all of the outside work. Lots of women don't seem
    to count that. I take care of the cars and the bills. Lots of women
    don't count that either. Some women who don't work outside the home
    don't take into account that their husband works when he's not home
    and expect to split house work 50-50 even if they're (the wife)
    is home all day.
    
    Most of the time my wife and I agree on when I'm doing enough. Some
    times we don't. That is usually when she wants me to do things that
    I don't see the need for. Think about it. Would you wash a perfectly
    clean floor? Probably not, but would you understand a mans objection
    to washing a floor that looks perfectly all right to him?
    
    			Alfred

    Alfred,
    
    You have a terminology problem.  "Mess" does not mean "dirt";
    it means "disorder".  A perfectly clean house in which every
    piece of paper has been randomly distributed is a "messy house".
    (It is probably a "perfect mess", but I'm not too clear on shadings
    of meaning.)
    
    My house is messy; objects are in piles all over it.  (My mother
    puts things in bags; I make piles.)  My house is also dirty.  I've
    just come back from two weeks of vacation, having left behind an
    elderly, incontinent cat with a flea problem.  All the rugs must
    be vacuumed and flea-bombed, and the kitchen and bathroom floors
    must be scrubbed.  But if I put away the clothing stuff, and tossed
    all the catalogues (which I won't), most people would think it
    looked fine -- but only because most people only look closely at
    their own dirt/mess/flaws.
    
    							Ann B.

    Years ago, in the comic strip called "For better or for worse"
    there was a strip that went more or less like this..
    
    mother thinks "this house is a mess"
    starts to dial the phone
    kid says "what are you doing mom?"
    mother says "inviting someone to dinner so I have to clean the house"

    a friend of mine says that she has three levels of clean
    
    family clean
    company clean
    mother-in-law clean 
    
    :-)
    
    I know what she means!
    
    Bonnie

    RE: .25 Since cleaning up the "mess" almost always involves
    vacuuming it may not be me with the terminology problem. It
    may be my wife. :-)

    IN any case, even though I have dust allergies and my wife
    doesn't she often feels the house is dusty long before I do.
    
    BTW, and to add more controversy. Does it ever appear that
    houses where one spouse stays home all day are more messy/
    dirty then those where both people work? It appears that way
    in most of my neighbors houses. 
    
    			Alfred

    Housework has always been a chore (meaning a task that I don't
    enjoy) for me.  As an adult I am beginning to understand more
    about why I label it a chore.  One being that it is a thankless
    task.  As a daughter, wife, or mother I have never been paid for
    doing it and it has never been looked upon as an accomplishment.
    Somehow I also got the idea that is a test/value of a woman -
    whether she is a good housekeeper or not.  I very seldom get an
    A plus on that test!  
    
    Two I tested positive for an allergy to dust mites.  After
    I vacuum or even while I am doing it my nose drips, I get short
    of breath, headaches and a general blah feeling which sometimes
    lasts a few days.  Once recently when someone helped me move a
    large piece of furniture (I don't have a husband or a wife to 
    help me with these things) I had quite a bad asthma attack.
    
    
    Each year it becomes more reasonable to pay someone else to vacuum.
    Although I put off checking out agencies/prices because then I
    would also have to deal with the guilt of not being superwoman!
    
    I have no problem with laundry or dishes or getting the car to 
    the garage, grocery shopping, outside repairs, stacking wood,
    shoveling snow etc. after I come home from work.  The only two
    things both I and my son find troublesome are vacuuming and
    mowing the grass because we both have allergic reactions.
    
    I'd rather go sailing on my day off anytime!

    Ok, folks, I guess maybe I've been making a mountain out of a mole
    hill, but I honestly still feel like I'm doing the majority of the
    housework.  Hubby fixed dinner last night, but up until 9:00 I was
    doing laundry and cleaning up the kitchen and dining room.  He was
    watching tv.  I really appreciate him fixing dinner last night,
    but he could have pitched in to help with the other stuff.  Am I
    expecting too much?  Am I trying to be too clean (or is that possible)?
    I don't think the latter is the case as my house always seems to
    be in total chaos.  Maybe I need to adjust my attitude so that this
    isn't such a big deal.  One of my sisters is married to a man that
    expects her to clean the house, pay the bills, take care of two
    kids, do all the yard work, and work AT LEAST 40 hours per week.
    If she's offered overtime, she better take it.  See, I'm just not
    like that.  I don't like to be "expected" to take care of EVERYTHING.
    
    Virginia

Don't take the short view! Don't take a single night as an example. Honestly
Virginia, for your piece of mind, write down a whole year's worth (as someone
pointed out, a great deal of yard work is seasonal). Then pass it by hubby and
_encourage_ him (if he needs it) to add in all the things he does that you've
overlooked. Then, if you've overlooked things you've done, add those too.

Don't try to change his pace, or his attitude, or his values. There are times
of the week when I'm cleaning and Joe is watching TV. There are times of the
week when I'm reading and Joe is renovating. Either snapshot would be wrong,
which might be why we each thought the other was a slug til we wrote this stuff
down.

Just try to make things seem equitable to both of you.

	Mez

    I have been in two minds about answering this note, because, frankly,
    from the housework point of view, I agree with what quite a few
    people have said: I don't care a damn what the house looks like,
    after all we have two children, 4 pets (2 cats, 1 dog, 1 rabbit)
    and 2 full-time jobs, so I can't bothered if dust accumulates (maybe
    when it's thick enough the dog will eat it, this animal would eat
    anything!) My husband is the one who suffers - in silence most of
    the time, as I am not always awfully receptive to remarks about
    trying to see through window-panes - as he was raised by a very
    neat Mom in an impeccable household. As a result, he is the one
    who will finally grab the vacuum-cleaner when he can't stand it
    anymore.
    
    So, my point really relates more to the "repartition of tasks" and
    that's probably where, whatever tasks we are talking about, you
    have better chances either to negotiate the amount of work you both
    do, or at least to do some checking on whether your' and your husband's
    load are really unequal.
    
    On the face of it, I'd seem to be doing most of the work at home,
    as I check the children's homework, cook the meal, and feed the
    pets every evening (walking the dog is a shared taks, because everybody
    likes to do it!), as well as changing the rabbit's cage and the
    cat's sand every other evening. I do ALL the vet, pediatrician and
    dentist visits (with 4 pets and 2 girls wearing braces - that's
    a LOT! ) BUT, I wouldn't be doing it if I hadn't chosen those tasks
    among the other household cores. I don't mind taking care
    of the pets, cooking the dinner and checking the homework. And yes,
    Francois does spend much more time in front of the TV than I do...
    but I don't like TV anyway, so what? On the other hand, he always
    answers the phone, which can be pretty annoying as people seem to
    prefer calling during "food time", pays the bills, and vacuum-cleans
    when the urge takes him. He also goes to the pub with some friends
    for a couple of hours after work every Friday, so I'd better not
    count on him on Fridays... On the other hand, he never travels for
    his job, while I travel 4-5 times a year for mine, and when I am
    away, he gets to do everything. 
                                                             
    So, who is the loser? If Francois had to take care of the pets and
    the children all the time, we would have ... neither. And if I had
    to clean up the house, we'd have gotten a divorce a long time ago!
    
    We've had, and still occasionnally have, big - BIG - arguments
    centering around "I do everything in this blasted house and you
    never lift your little finger to help me, you lazy so-and-so". This
    comment has been uttered at different times, and in perfect good
    faith when they were spoken, by each of us. After 13 years of common
    life, I still feel I am doing most of the work, but I guess if somebody
    where to ask Francois he would say HE does most of the work.
                                     
    I don't believe that work in the house can ever be equally shared,
    because, depending on the personalities involved, one will always
    end up doing more than the other, whatever we may try to do to reduce
    the inequalities. I mean, it's the same in the office: two people
    in the same job, one works like Hell, the other one polishes his/her
    fingernails to a beautiful gloss. 
    
    I do understand your frustration, Virginia, as I used to get pretty
    upset about Francois doing or not doing certain things I expected
    of him. But I have been pointed out, kindly, that he also had quite
    a few expections about me, which he had to drop ... and quickly!
    
    Good luck in your search for help, if you can't get it from your
    husband, get it from outside (not your mother-in-law!), we had a
    cleaning lady for two years and it was Heaven!
    
    Joana

    Joana,
    
    That was a wonderful reply and for the past several days, I've been
    trying to look at everything through Billy's eyes, not just mine.
    The dirty towels are piled in the laundry basket; I think they need
    to be washed; he doesn't see the need as there are still clean towels
    in the linen closet.  There are dirty dishes in the sink; I think
    they should be washed; he doesn't see the need as there aren't flies
    buzzing around over the sink, yet, and there are still plenty of
    clean dishes in the cabinets.  Then again, I don't see the need
    to clean the car out because I can still get in it, but he thinks
    the empty soda cans need to be thrown out and it needs to be vacuumed.
    I guess I can't expect him to feel the same way I do about EVERYTHING,
    and vice versa.  But, then there's the problem that even during
    this day and age a messy house reflects upon the woman of the house,
    not the man!!!
    
    Also, I have tried the advice of trying to do things in the mornings,
    before work and it seems to help.  The past two mornings I've washed
    up the breakfast dishes and any "leftover" dishes from the night
    before instead of trying to wash them with my supper dishes at night.
    It seems to cut down on time spent in the kitchen. 
    
    I guess this is something Billy and I will have to work out the
    best we can and even if occasionally we do fight about it, I'll
    have to learn to deal with it.  I think another thing that gets
    to me is he's always wanting to GO.  Let's go here, let's go there.
    I feel like yelling "If you'd help me out around here a little more
    I might feel like GOING places!!"
    
    Virginia

    Housework, my favorite subject. :-}
    I live with my daughter and my brother is our roommate. he is a trucker
    so is home only 4 to 5 days out of a month(thank God). Since we
    live in a house, I do all the housework, help my daughter with school
    work, do all the yard work, all the laundry, dishes, animal care...
    this summer when my brother was home, I would be out mowing the
    lawn, (I have severe allergies to everything, since I quit smoking
    over a year ago, its very much worse)my brother came out and watched
    me, pointed out areas that needed to be mowed over again and watched
    me sneeze turn purple with weezing and never once suggested that
    he might help.  when I asked him if he would take over he explained
    that being a trucker he felt that the house care was mine cause
    after all, he has the harder job.....
    I have a dog and a cat too, I clean up after them, etc. he decided
    he needed a dog(chump).  well, my animals are spayed and neutered,
    his is a champion stud, he has to pee all over the house *every*
    time he comes home.  I explained to my brother that his dog needed
    to be contained since it keeps marking teritory every time they
    come home and handed him the rug shampoo and mop.  He felt that
    since his dog wasn't there all the time, wellllllll geee vivian,
    can't you  understand its his nature?  auhgggg!
    I wish I did have someone at home to help, obviously my brother
    won't. my daughter and I do have an occaisional discussion but like
    others in this file, she can't figure out what I am so discouraged
    about.  I discussed getting a cleaning person and when ever I do
    it seems like magic, the house gets worse.  I am not talking about
    dusting, or vacuming(Idon't mind doing those jobs, a bandana over
    my face helps me with dust and fur flying) I am talking
    about dishes everywhere, clothes, books, papers, toys, dog presents
    (when my brother is home).  I'm still working the issue, I remember
    putting a request for ideas about my brother in the old -wn-, most
    didnt work.  right now the house work and dog are a problem.
    Life goes on and I am still trying to figure out how to get my house
    cleaned up.
    
    when I was married, my husband used to bring a multitude of friends
    home *every* day, they partied and left a mess.  they couldn't
    understand why I was being such a *itch because I didn't like picking
    up over 2 cases of beer cans and mopping up spills when all they
    wanted was to have a good time. so I went on strike.  I didn't pick
    up a thing, did my own dishes and hid them, moved the tv into my
    room and watched tv while they partied, never vacumed or mopped.
    it took about 2 months(these guys were really dense) before they
    realized that things were pretty bad.  They came over one saturday
    and spent the day cleaning.  I had to get out of there because
    efficient they were not, but they never took advantage of my house
    again. 
    I would never have hired a cleaning person in that instance, just
    imagine what I would have been charged to clean that mess up!
    
    vivian

    RE .34, that much of a mess would bother me, too!  Even if a place
    isn't spotless and shiny, I can't stand it when members of a household
    leave their personal possessions strewn from one end of the house
    to the other!  The two people I live with now are the two neatest
    people I've ever lived with and I do appreciate it.  There's a big
    difference between not feeling like doing a heavy cleaning job at
    a certain given time and being a slob!  Even if your brother didn't
    help with real housework if he would at least pick up after himself
    it would help a lot!  
    
    Pets are such a difficult issue.  It's not easy finding people who
    are happy to live with 3 cats either!  But, I couldn't stand the
    dog wetting all over the place either.  Unless he's really into
    breeding dogs and raising show dogs I don't see why he can't get
    the dog neutered.
    
    Lorna
    

    I actually didn't set out to hire a cleaning service when I did.
    Most of my friends (poor, poor people!) are allergic to cats. I
    am allergic to lots of things, but not to cats, which is good, since
    we have two cats.  Our cat-allergic friends can only come over to
    visit or for dinner if the house has been just vacuumed to suck
    up all the cat hairs the critters scatter around (I love cats, but
    they can be messy little beasts sometimes).  One couple had recently
    hired a cleaning service (they actually OWN a cat; John has had
    the cat for many years, and only recently developed an allergy problem,
    and married someone who is also allergic to it, but they love the
    cat and won't think of finding it another home - not that I blame
    them!), and they recommended that we do so also, so we can have
    people like them around more often.  I felt funny about doing so,
    even though I usually work about 50 hours a week here, plus various
    volunteer and committee work, and so does my husband.  But I did,
    anyhow.  We normally keep things picked up (because clutter bothers
    me; Paul doesn't notice it), but we weren't very good about cleaning
    up (dirt bothers Paul more than me, unless it is really bad) because
    it is so time-consuming.  The housekeeper comes for two hours once
    once a week, and gets the place cleaner than we could do in five
    or six hours: this woman is a real professional.  She won't pick
    up clutter, though (you wouldn't usually want someone to pick up
    after you: you'd never find anything again!), so you have to keep
    things neat.  Now the cat hairs get dusted up and vacuumed up every
    week, and the bathroom is never gross.  It's nice!
    
    The trick to doing laundry in our house is that we do it on a schedule.
    On Wednesday morning before work the dark clothes laundry goes into
    the washer.  The housekeeper comes as we are leaving for work, and
    she puts it in the dryer when she leaves.  When we get home that
    night, I fold that laundry and start the towels, and then we go
    to our folk-dancing group.  When we get home I put the towels in
    the dryer and go to bed.  The next morning I get up early and put
    the white clothes and sheets in the washer, and fold and put away
    the towels.  Right before I leave for work, I put the white stuff
    in the dryer.  Then after we do the grocery shopping on the way
    home from work on Thursday, I fold and put away the white clothes.
    Thursday night we bake bread, which I start before we make supper.
    Then we eat, and while the bread rises I do the ironing (Paul is
    an extremely slow ironer, so I do this job even though nearly all
    the clothes that need ironing are his).  Then we bake the bread,
    and go to bed!  Oh, getting the groceries doesn't take long because
    we do a menu for the week, so we know what we need: I hate spending
    extra time wandering around in the grocery store.  This leaves the
    weekends free except for chores that you can't do if it is getting
    dark out by the time you get home, like mowing the lawn.  I do that
    one because of Paul's bad knee (he did it once this season, because
    I was very busy, but he really shouldn't be doing it on our steep
    hill), but if I move fast I can finish it in less than an hour.  If
    there are errands to run, Paul does those while I mow (like the
    Post Office, now that it is only open from 9-5!!  I work from 8:30
    til 6:30, and walk to work, so Saturday is the only shot at the
    post office we get, thank you Mr. Reagan.  It used to open at 8:30,
    so Paul could stop there on his way to work.)
    
    I find that we have to be ruthlessly efficient in order to get all
    the necessary chores done without having them eat up all of our
    non-working-non-sleeping hours, or fill up the whole weekend.
                                                 

    Wow!  You're so organized!
    
    -Tracy
    

    I wonder if you really need your Brother there, is he Contributing
    toward the Household upkeep?  If not suggest that he find another
    location to flop when he comes to the area.  If you have carpeting,
    and such, the Dog Urine will go through the carpet and be in the
    padding and stay there no matter what you do, including steam 
    cleaning.
    
    I would not tolerate such messiness and I am a Male.  My wife works
    and is not usually home for the evening meal, so when I arrive home
    at 6-6:30 my children 19 son, 17 daughter, 14 son, 12 daughter 
    expect to eat, and when the house is a disaster, I just say we eat
    after we clean, and if you do not help out you do not have to eat.
    
    They all pitch in except the 12 year old who will help at times,
    but she has problems and those are not needed here.
    
    Dave

    I wholeheartedly agree with the folks in previous replies who said
    hire someone!  It's the best present I've given myself!!  I've had
    someone clean my house almost continuously since 1972, and I'm a
    true believer!  My weekends are free to spend with Steve doing what
    *we* want, and the house is clean in case we want to invite someone
    over on the spur of the moment.
    
    I disagree with the recommendations to hire a cleaning service, but
    that's just personal opinion.  I've had both, and wouldn't hire a
    cleaning service again.  Why?  Well, for one thing, they have a
    specific list of tasks they will perform, and anything extra costs more
    money.  I remember the last one I had wanted $5.00 extra to put clean
    linens on the bed and throw the dirty ones in the hamper! *And* my
    experience has been that they charge probably 50% more than a plain ol'
    maid. Over the years I've had, gosh, maybe 15 different maids.  I've
    never had a single item stolen, or any other problem that bonding would
    have solved.  I've gotten all my maids through references from friends,
    and I think that's the key.  When I hire someone, it's a maid who
    already has worked for one of my friends for quite a while, so I *know*
    she's trustworthy.  That isn't an ironclad guarantee, but it's stood
    the test of the years for me.  I have *always* worked, and *always*
    given the maid a key to the house and have a 100% track record of
    success as far as honesty.  Just as an aside, I would *not* hire
    my mother-in-law or any other family member, and would tell them
    so in an instant.
    
    Points about *not* using a cleaning service: (these are merely
    observations; you might consider some of these items either an
    advantage or a disadvantage, depending on what you are looking for)
    
    Lower cost
    
    The maid works for you, not someone else.  Disciplinary matters
    are between you and the maid, not between you and her manager, then
    her manager and her.  If you're shy about such things, you might
    prefer for someone else to be the "bad guy", but when you do that
    you're relinquishing some control over your own situation.
    
    You decide what she does.  I usually get agreement that she will
    stay a certain length of time and do whatever she can get done in
    that time, with a list of required items.  Then if she has time
    left over, she can clean the stove, or clean out the fridge, or
    iron, or polish silver, or ...  Try and find a cleaning service
    that will either do laundry or iron!!!!
    
    One last comment:  Over 16 years or so, there is one thing about
    having a maid or service that has remained constant.  Don't expect
    to hire somebody and keep her for the next 25 years.  By the time
    a maid has worked for me for a year or so, the quality of work starts
    slipping.  Invariably.  The longest I've ever kept one was less
    than 3 years.  You will eventually end up firing her and getting
    another one because the work becomes shoddy.
    
    Currently I have a maid who comes in on Tuesday and Friday.  She
    literally does everything.  Laundry, ironing, ... the works.  We
    do not leave the house messy so she has to spend time picking up
    old newspapers and stuff -- it's neat when she arrives so all she
    has to do is clean.  And we do not leave dirty dishes for her to
    clean up.  Other than that, she does it all.  And Steve and I spend
    our weekends sailing or playing with his woodworking hobby or gardening
    or doing all the other things we enjoy.  I *HIGHLY* recommend it!
    
    
    							Pat

    In re teenagers or non cleaning service personel...note .39 expressed
    what I have found, that a teeanger or older person with good references
    can be just as reliable and more flexible and cheaper than a service.
    
    When I hired teenagers to clean they were usually girls who lived
    near by andwere also my baby sitters. They would stop off at the
    house after school and clean until we got home. I'd leave a list
    of things that I wanted them to do. When we got home from work 
    (to a *Oh Joy* clean house) we would pay her for her time and
    take her home. 
    
    My standards may be a bit looser than some, but I did find that
    all the young women who cleaned for me did a careful job and I never
    had any reason to mistrust them.
    
    Bonnie

	You've had lots of excellent advice, and it appears
some of it has hit home (pun intended!).  For two cents more,
here's a brief outline of both practical and theoretical 
ideas that I've had experience with.

	If you think you have it bad, consider that 5 years
ago, I worked full-time, did all the housework, inside and
out!  I'd mow the lawn, fix broken furniture and lamps and 
doors and disposers, build the bed, vacuum, sew curtains, mend clothes,
do laundry, fix the car, etc.  I also bore our son and nursed
it and paid for all the expenses.  At some point, during all the 
diapers and tears, the laughter stopped, and I noticed the 
difference between my SO's free time and disposable income.  

	Predictably, none of the solipsizing, ragging, reasoning,
scenes, or logic worked.  Experimenting with centering myself
and finding the cosmic scheme of things got me back to the point
where I could communicate effectively.  In asking what gave,
I got the terse answer, "Make less work".  I began with doing
only my own laundry, cooking with fewer courses and pots,
replacing handwashables with machine washables, and ended up
getting a housekeeper every other week.  After the predictable
"superwoman" inner monologue, I discovered that I was dreadfully
inefficient at cleaning compared to local agency helpers.  
First, I centralized cleaning materials, then trained myself
to neaten up the house before they cleaned it.  My new ability to
to have the house cleaned after a morning's work and $40 sent me soaring!
The argument over who paid the $40 came next!  But, like others,
I've had many professionals work "with me" and served them with
respect and any cleaning materials they needed, and had no problems.

	In fact, after I continued the process of centering myself,
setting priorities, and communicating my need to alternate some of
the chores with my SO, the static has died down and the clothes
magically seem to clean themselves every other week or so.  The
light bulbs I can't reach renew themselves, the garbage disappears
astonishingly from time to time.  A few things I hadn't appreciated, 
like getting rides since I hate to drive, became more worthwhile.  

	I recommend many of the same things:  look at it from
a new perspective, get the support you need from co-professionals,
appreciate the unseen glories of the world, and spend your precious
time on yourself, your shape, and your peace of mind.  Have a 
happy healthy household.