Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    There could be a problem with the case of women with partners. 
    The women have an allowance made for them so they can handle the
    work of raising children and maintaining the household.  Since they
    have 'all this time' now, it's harder for them to get their partner
    to take a fair share of the burden.  If a woman and her partner
    are already sharing the load, then she doesn't need much of an
    allowance.  Also, it would make sense for single fathers to have
    allowances made for them as well, in many cases.

    	Also, there are some fathers who contribute quite a bit towards
    	childcare and other household duties along with their partners
    	already, so I would think that any policy regarding allowances
    	for such things would have to be sure to provide the benefit
    	to *anyone* who fits into that sort of profile (man or woman,
    	married or single.)
    
    	It sounds like it might be a bit difficult/cumbersome to figure
    	out who should get this sort of benefit and who shouldn't.
    

    What about the fathers who work, but their wives stay at home ?
    They ususally have to work overtime, and still do household 
    duties when they get home. 
   
    Jim

    The sexist streak in me (it's *real* small, ladies) says, "Sure,
    women work longer hours at their work and at home with the kids;
    but, on the average, men have higher level positions than their
    spouses (No, I don't have statistics, but I think this should be
    accepted as a given) so they have more demanding jobs..."
    
    That may be the thinking of the men who aren't helping out.
    
    Me?  I'd help out...  I can cook, and I've changed sh*tty diapers
    before, so I know it won't kill me...  However, I hate to cut grass,
    so when the time comes, we will have to set up some kind of 
    agreement..   :^)
    
    Just out of curiousity, did the article only address workplace and
    child-related duties, or did it include other things as well, such
    as lawn mowing, trash emptying, car washing, and other "traditional"
    male household duties?  (Again, THIS IS NOT ME, and I think that
    something being "traditional" is, if anything, an excuse for me
    to do differently...)
    
    How about the married, blessed(?)-with-child(ren) wimmin in our 
    audience...  Do you find this is so, or are things pretty 50-50?
    I'd be especially interested in hearing from some wimmin who have
    more demanding jobs than their husbands, and have children...
    
    Bill

    Bill,
    
    Don and I definitely share the housework evenly, and if anyone
    does more than 50% it is him not me.
    
    Plus we enlist the junior members of the household...
    
    I get real upset if I come home to a messy house and dished
    undone when there are four capable teenagers living in my
    home!
    
    Bonnie

    
    
    I don't think that 'higher level' necessarily equates to
    'more demanding.'  Perhaps you could define or clarify
    your terms.
    
    My position with DEC is one of the lowest possible-Customer
    Response Rep (CRR).   Yet this job has more pressure, stress
    and complexity than many more-technical positions.  
    
    I'm sure many secretaries would tell you that their job is
    more demanding than their manager's job.
    
    

      Total Hours Each Week Spent on Workplace - Family Responsibilities

                            Work      Home      Children     Total

Married Female Parents      39.55     19.91     25.45        83.91

Single Female Parents       39.08     15.98     22.11        77.17

Married Male Parents        43.55     12.02     13.54        69.11
(Spouse Unemployed)

Married Male Parents        44.38     10.56     13.98        68.92
(Spouse Employed)

Single Male Parents         42.73     12.67     13.00        68.40

Married Female Nonparents   38.53     14.91                  53.44

Married Male NonParents     43.04     14.61                  57.65
(Spouse Unemployed)

Married Male Nonparents     44.15      8.74                  52.89
(Spouse Employed)

Single Female Nonparents    38.90     10.95                  49.85

Single Male Nonparents      42.62      7.23                  49.85


"Vulnerability of Working Parents:  Balancing Work & Home Roles", Googins,
Bradley & Burden, Dianne, "Social Work", July-August 1987

A couple of things that strike me strange ...

Married Female Parents do more child care then Single Female Parents.

Married Male Non/Parents whose Spouses don't work, do more house work then
Married Male Non/Parents whose Spouses do work. 

Notice that the Married Female category is not split into Spouse employed
and unemployed?

JMB

    
    	I'm just curious if any studies have been done to show the amount
    	of time married men with children spend on yardwork/home repair/
    	auto repair?
    
    	This is a topic often discussed with my friends. The males spend
    	about as much time doing upkeep as their wives do with housework/
    	childcare.
    
    	Guy Novello
    

    re: .7
    
    Gee, that's embarassing...
    
    About your "strange" comments.
    
    I thought that the higher hourage (to coin a word) for married female
    parents (MFP) over single female parents (SFP) was strange until I 
    considered that the chart did not indicate whether or not the 
    MFP were employed - since there *are* still a *very few*
    (:^) housewives out there, I'm sure they help to pull up the average,
    while the SFP have almost no choice in the matter, being the sole
    breadwinner for the family.
    
    All categories should have been split up into whether the subject
    was employed, and where applicable, if their spouse was employed.
    It is easy to draw the wrong kind of conclusion from something like
    this.
    
    I *am* curious why the single male parents have the lowest time
    of all spent with their children...  I would have thought that it
    would be roughly equivalent to the single female parents; it's also
    interesting that the SMP are the ones with the lowest total hourage
    for parents...  One wonders where they are spending their time?
    :^)  Perhaps they're looking for the single female nonparents, who
    tie for the lowest total work week...
    
    re: .6(?)
    
    I stand corrected.  I should have said "more pressuring job" than
    higher level.  I agree, some secretaries have a more pressuring
    job than their managers.
    
    I'm not sure how well this would stand up, but I notice that the
    people who stay late around here are predominantly men...  Going
    back to the statistics, IN EVERY CASE, men were working more in
    the workplace, but they were lagging behind the females in child
    care, and home care.
    
    Does this indicate a more pressuring job (on the average), or just
    that men prefer to stay at the workplace, instead of going home
    to wife, child, and dirty laundry?
    
    Bill
    
    P.S.  Thanks for those stats, JMB!

  > ... IN EVERY CASE, men were working more in the workplace, but they
  > were lagging behind the females in child care, and home care.
    
  > Does this indicate a more pressuring job (on the average), or just that
  > men prefer to stay at the workplace, instead of going home to wife,
  > child, and dirty laundry? 
    
    I don't believe that across the board men have more pressuring jobs for
    a skinny minute!  Our culture is still oriented toward career
    responsibilities for men and home responsibilities for women.  That
    will hopefully change with time, but as of right now, the woman usually
    (at least often) bears the brunt of the responsibility at home and
    therefore can't spend all the overtime hours on her career that her
    husband can. 
    
    							Pat

    Back to the original topic...
    
    I too, am nervous about the "make allowances for women".  For one
    thing, it is another example of "women REALLY SHOULD be doing the
    parenting", it's probably going to take away from the amount of
    time the husband is spending helping, since she's now got "all this
    extra time".  Another thing that bothers me, is that if employers
    have to "make allowances" for women, they are going to tend more
    than they do now to hire the man for the position.
    
    While I agree that parenting is a tough job, that takes a lot of
    time, it is still a CHOICE.  The employer should have nothing to
    do with that choice.
    
    Elizabeth

	I don't think we should foster the idea that women should be the
       ones taking more time for children. If it's OK for the women it
       should be OK for the men to take extra time. But then what about
       those of us without kids? Will it be our lot to make up the
       difference? I believe I should pay taxes to support public
       education because an educated society is in my benefit. I don't
       think I should be responsible to pick up the extra work because a
       colleague has kids, though I'm willing to help if someone is
       having problems (a sick child etc) I don't want it mandated that
       I have to. liesl

Re: 141.4 and others

Qualifications: married; three kids (12, 11, 2); higher salary than
husband, but more demanding ?  maybe...

This is a subject near and dear to my heart. I am still not satisfied
that, in my family at least, the split is 50-50. I have thought long 
and hard about this subject and have come to the conclusion that the
division is not 50-50 in regard to distribution of *stress* at home.

example: I could care less if the lawn is cut (to a point :-)). The 
lawn causes me no stress. But the *kids* do. I'd rather have him share 
by accepting some of that stress. (like get up early some mornings, 
help me get out in the morning, do some of the carpooling, watch the
baby while I shop...)

I don't think the *real* answer is to have special allowances at work, 
but to have equality in the off-work stresses and responsibilities. 
This would help married men and women, but doesn't address single 
parents' needs. I have been a single parent, too. It's difficult, but 
I found it somewhat less stressful because I had one less person's 
demands to juggle.  I knew  who  was  responsible  for the  off-work 
duties - me - so I just did what I could.

As far as the effect on career, I can only speak from my own experiences, 
but I have found more career limiting attitudes at home than here at 
Digital. In my experience, no matter how hard I try to change it, there 
is a pervading attitude at home that a man can adjust his priorities and 
give more of himself at work, but a woman's priority must ALWAYS be her 
family. (eg. I want to work extra - I have to make sure he'll agree to 
watch the kids; he wants to work extra - he just tells me that he is) 
Maybe it's just my selection of mates :-) , but I'll bet I'm not alone.

Again, I'm only one example, but I think the answer is at home.

    re .7
    I find the survey results distrubing.  But then I am a single parent
    with child, make more money and more technical then my ex( he's
    a mechanic, not too good at it either).  I have a house to take
    care off.  
    So I work 50 to 60 hours a week, then do yard work, house work,
    and still spend time with my daughter, who usually keeps me company
    while I do everything!  My husband never did any of the above when
    we were together, he went to work for 35 to 40 hours a week, came
    home, ate dinner I cooked and then went to bed.  I still did all
    the above.  I don't think I am alone by any means.  There a millions
    of women who are doing basically the same things I am.  So I don't
    think the averages are correct.
    
    Just my opinion
    vivian

    Re: .12
    
    >I don't think I should be responsible to pick up the extra work
    
    (Potential rathole ahead:  Don't let it catch you!)  There's an
    argument that a shorter work week would create more jobs (with
    subsequent marvelous consequences to the economy).  So it might
    not be a matter of off-loading onto one's coworkers, but off-loading
    onto new employees.
    
    I still don't think it's a great idea.  I don't see why business
    should get involved in arranging your home life, though I think
    it would be nice if they were willing to give adjustments to work
    schedules.

    hmmmmmmmmmmm......it sounds to me that if we don't get equal rights
    but women's rights....then we are just creating the same dilemna
    we now face.  That women should be home with their children and
    men should work.  It sounds backwords....I think today more men
    are taking interest in their children and let's face it if a couple
    wants a child then it up to both of them to decide who does what
    etc.  beforehand.....I know some women that *love* careers and their
    husbands are great with child care.  And then I know some women
    who love to stay home while their husband works.....it seems again
    that this is a personal choice and not a business choice.
    
    Also if we had equal rights wouldn't women make more money?  Also
    wouldn't that help men as well?  With shared custody if they got
    divorced?  I think that's why the single male parent is down.  More
    male parents cannot spend as much time because of visitation
    restrictions.  To me non-custodial parents should have equal rights
    and I don't feel they do.   I think equal rights would help both
    parties....if everyone thought gender-neutral than I feel
    jobs/parenting wouldn't be such an issue.  Yes? No?  Maybe???
    
    bobbi