Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    Well, when Ms. starting being touted about 20 (?) years ago, I didn't
    like it because I thought it made me sound like a hillbilly. But
    what did I know, I was only 12. ;-)
    
    I never like having my marital status determine what honorific should
    be used. If I had my way, there would be NO Mr. Mrs. Ms. Miss. Just
    plain Tamzen Cannoy, John Doe, Jane Wilson, etc.
    
    On the plus side, I now *do* like Ms., because it only indicated
    I am female. It balances out Mr. Since there is no equivalent to
    Mrs. or Miss for men, I prefer Ms.

    Tamzen

    I agree with .1.  The whole point of Ms. is to provide a title that
    has no indication of marital status, just as Mr. does not define
    marital status for men.  If only non-married women use Ms., and married
    women all use Mrs., then the point has been lost.
    
    bh

    I'm married and I use Ms. I didn't change my name either. ;-)
    
    And have you noticed? Finally all those "bingo" cards in magazines
    and warrenty cards, etc. are starting to have a space for you to
    check MS.? I used to just write it in in BIG letters, so they would
    get the idea.
    
    Tamzen

    I used to dislike Ms. but now I am divorced I have found it is really
    the only one I will use.   However, I agree that a title is not
    really useful in lots of cases.  When I write to friends I don't
    use them but address envelopes to "Mary Smith" or whatever.
    
    Using the title Mrs, really leads to an assumption that there must be
    a Mister somewhere.
    
    di. 

    I use "Ms." because I like the symmetry with "Mr", and because our
    family name was originally my family name.  When someone calls me "Mrs.
    Maurer", I look 'round for my mother.  I usually don't "correct"
    people, but they must wonder why I stare at them blankly for a minute
    before answering... 
                     
    Before I married, I mostly went by "Mademoiselle", living in a
    francophonic country.  The French haven't come up with a successful
    alternative.  When last I lived here (during college), I never
    gave titles any thought at all. 
                     

    Oooh, does this hit home. Ever since I can remember, my mother has
    always signed her name and referred to herself as "Mrs. George
    Blanchard" I HATE THAT ! I never understood how she can totaly
    lose her identity that way. It's what she likes to be known as,
    though, so it's none of my business. 
    
    I however, am getting married soon. I *REFUSE* to EVER refer to
    myself as "Mrs. Michael Ryan". It will be Ms. Ryan or Denise Ryan.
    (Incidently, the only reason I am changing my name at all is 
    because I like Irish last names.)
    
    Dee 

    
    
              My wife, Mrs. Matthew P. Healy, has told me she has
              no problems or insecurities with her title.
    
    

    Before I was married, I was Miss K.C. Coutermarsh, and now I am
    Mrs. K.C. Fahel.  My first name is my own, but I do prefer the Mrs.
    I think you can guess why I went to my husband's last name.
    
    Mrs. K.C. Fahel

    I don't like Miss, Mrs., or Ms.
    
    I am fond of being called 'Ann' [or 'Annie'].
    
    My mother sends my birthday card to 'Mrs. R.R.Johnston' which really
    frosts my pumpkin. I have asked her not to do it, but she says she
    doesn't want the mailman to think I'm trashy. [?]
    
    My sister makes some attempt at appeasement and writes to 'Mrs.
    Ann Johnston.'  This just irritates me.  _She's_ 'Miss Wendy Cox'
    since the divorce. Fine.  But why do _I_ have to have some
    pidgeon-holing prefix?
    
    Then there's my dad.  _He_ writes to 'Gus.'  [It's quite a long
    story.]  This I don't mind, because the last time he tried to use
    my name, the letter came addressed to 'Ann Richardson.' [I'm married
    to Richard Johnston, hence...]
                          
    All told, I prefer a name to a title.
    
      Ann

       What follows is a little old fashioned, but I assue you is very
       real in my family. Note this is British "County" etiquette at its
       stuffiest.

       My Wife is Mrs. Ian F. Philpott

       My Mother is Mrs. Frederick J. Philpott

       My Senior Aunt is Mrs. Philpott

       One of my junior aunts is Mrs. Susan Philpott

       ===

       The rules of this game are simple: the eldest male of the senior
       generation with any members alive is the head of the 'clan' and
       so uses his surname either with no title or with the 'Mr' tag.
       His wife is Mrs. Philpott and reigning matriarch of the family.

       All other wives in the family use the "Mrs <husband's name>
       Philpott" style.

       Should the husband die she continues to use the husband's name.

       Should she be divorced by her husband she reverts to her
       Christian name but retains the family surname.

       Should she divorce her husband she would return to her maiden
       name.

       ===

       See I warned you it was stuffy...

       /. Ian .\

Ms., hands down.

Miss Zurko implies I'm not married.

Mrs. Zurko implies I married Joe Zurko (hmm, pretty catchy that.).

Ms. leaves 'em guessing (or let's 'em know, depending on their, er, stereotypes
about women who use Ms.).

But Ms. Mez is just tooooooo silly.
	Mez

    How's this for a wrench in the works:
    
    My aunt, a dyed-in-the-t-shirt flower child (the kind that wears
    huge peace symbols, tie dyed shirts, and buttons with pictures of
    coat hangers on them (if you want the details on *that* one, send
    me mail) was Ms. Barbara Millios before and after she got married,
    and (*insert favorite deity here*) help anybody who dares to call
    her Mrs. Robert Kilmer.
    
    Even her husband doesn't joke about that.
    
    She'll even call up magazines and other people she receives "Mrs."
    correspondence from, just to lambast them on the point.
    
    Here's the good one:
    
    When her son was born, he became:  Errol (middlename) Millios.
    (I myself am the only father to son Millios in the family, and if
    I don't do my duty, as it were, the name stops with me.)
    
    When her daughter was born, she became (Ms.) Laura (middle) Kilmer.
    
    Granted, this causes innumerable screwups at school, etc., what
    with a full brother and sister having different last names, but
    when they call to complain/comment/inquire, they had better call
    her Ms. Millios!
    
    My parents go by Mr. and Mrs. *only* if it's an official thing.
    Otherwise, it's "Mr. William L., and Mrs. Diana M. Millios".
    
    Dad mentioned that it's a bit tedious to write all that out, but
    since Mom does most of the writing, then he said she could write
    whatever she wanted...
    
    When I get married, I'll leave it up to her.
    
    "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned..."
    
    Bill

    
    My name before and after my marriage is Suzanne Poirier.
    
    I hate using titles - Ms. Mr. etc.  But when the formality requires it
    I use Ms., always have since I was old enough to be aware of what this
    name business was all about.  
    
    It made me cringe when I sent out my wedding invitations to Mrs
    Fredrick Baird - her husband has been dead 10 years but my mother
    insisted that it was her name. My mother is a fuddy-duddy when it comes
    to this name stuff. She always addresses things to me as Mrs David
    Hukill.  No thank you.  My father, even for a real conservative, has no
    problem with me still being Suzanne Poirier. 
                                                                      
    My husband is behind me 100%. And when people who don't know him call
    him Mr. Poirier, he just smiles.  He's such a cutie :-). 
    
    What happens with children - probably hyphenate the names  or maybe just
    avoid the whole conflict and not have any!
    
    Ms. Suzanne Poirier

    ARRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGG - titles. Why titles? At all?!
    
    I don't use one, I don't check them off on the little cards. When
    addressing my friends I don't use them. It ticks off my mother when
    her Birthday card has only HER name on it, afterall it's not Mrs.
    Dad's birthday. And she continues to put Mrs Andrew K. on my card.
     Well, Andrew's history, I wonder what she'll call me now, I'm not
    taking my maiden name (another stupid phrase) back (it takes to
    long to spell). She'll probably just stop writing.
    
    It's interesting to see which companies make the assumtions about
    your name. Car & Driver listed me as Ms, which I find to be acceptable
    when I told Good Housekeeping to change my name they automatically
    changes my title from Miss to Mrs. Other publications left the title
    Ms. It seems they all "require" a title.
    
    My question is why titles? They've outlived their usefulness. 
   

    Call me...Gail, please
    

    
�    My question is why titles? They've outlived their usefulness. 

       Two small comments: In a perverse mood I recently sent off a
       batch of magazine subscription cards carefully ticking "other"
       and listing my title as "Lt. Col." and name as "I Philpott"

       Only "Guns & Ammo" and a technical journal associated with the
       arms industry chose to use it. All the others except a craft
       journal defaulted to "Mr". The craft journal assumed "Miss" (it
       *was* for my wife, and it was a mistake on my part to put my name
       not hers... she likes the joke, and said she'd leave it like that
       to punish me :-)

       Now do G&A and the Defense Industry mag assume no Lieutenant
       Colonels are female (if so they are wrong), or is it just that
       they have a disproportionate number of military folk in their
       readership.

       Do the others want to annoy me, or can their computers not handle
       multiple word titles? And finally does the craft mag assume its
       membership is exclusively female?

       Second: I don't know about today, but back in the cowboy days in
       Texas if you called a man "Mr <xxx>" after you'd learned his
       first name it was a deliberate insult...

       /. Ian .\

    
    RE: .14  (why titles?)
    
    Because, in certain situations, polite speech requires it.  I was always
    taught that it was impolite to use the first name of someone I don't
    know well while doing business with them.  And I'm more likely to
    remember someone's last name than their first, if I've only met them
    once.  It is seldom polite to refer to someone by their last name
    alone, without some title.
    
    I kinda like Ms., just because (if it's accepted), its always correct. 
    I've only miffed a couple of people by using it.  And this upsets me
    a lot less than the embarrassment of incorrectly guessing someone's
    marital status.
    
    On the side topic of women keeping their "maiden" names ...
    I've always thought it would be neat to have a naming convention that
    preserved both patrilineal and matrilineal descent.  Give male children
    the surname of thier fathers and female children the surname of their
    mothers.  It might be interesting (if unwieldy) to hyphenate the other
    parents final surname.  (Mark Adams-Smith and Sally Hawkins-Jones have
    children Ann Smith-Jones and Samuel Jones-Smith).  Well, so much for
    silly ideas 8^).
    
    						-- Mike

    
<    On the side topic of women keeping their "maiden" names ...
<<    						-- Mike

	You've inspired me, I know how we should do this. As soon as you
       aren't a virgin anymore both sexes have to change their last name
       to the name of the first person they slept with. The honorific
       could be something on the line of Dit (for did it). :*) I mean
       it's not really a "maiden" name after that is it? liesl

    in re .0
    
    My impression is that the author of the base note was really
    coming from a different place than most of the respondants to
    her note..and I hope that the replies haven't turned her away
    and she has been open to read them ..
    
    I think she is fairly newly married and is very proud of the fact,
    and if she is proud and happy to be called Mrs name lastname then
    for heavens sake let us celebrate her pride and affirm her right
    to be called as she wishes...we can all talk about which name we
    prefer without making her feel uncomfortable.
    
    and as to name changes when one looses ones virginity..
    
    well when I was in college and a biology major..I studied genetics
    my jr year, and that involved the use of fruit flies. Virgin fruit
    files had a dark spot on their belly, and we separated them out
    of the masses of flies in our experiments by that spot (actually
    what happened was that they didn't defecate for the first time
    until they had mated so the dark spot was feces (and I will not
    !!! take that any further). Well we often speculated as to the
    effect on human society if there was a clearly obivous sign the
    indicated that a girl was now a woman.
    
    
     I think that in the long run I'm definitely glad that we are
      not fruit flies.  :-)
    
    Bonnie

Hah!  That's a good one!

When I don't know the sex or first name of a person I am writing to, I use "M.
Schemolien"...  It's sort of an adaptation of the French abbreviations. :-) It's
also good when you don't want to give your own sex, although initials are pretty
asexual. 

JMB 

    Hi--
    
    After being "Jane L. Bullock" for 37 years, I am VERY happy that as of
    Oct. 31 this year, I will be a Mrs.
    
    "Ms." never set well with me;  half of my family is "down South",
    and every woman there seems to be "Miz This or That" or (worse) 
    "Miz Jane" (#-}).  Sounds right out of Erskin Caldwell, doesn't it? 
    
    I even enjoy all the stupid paperwork involved in changing my name
    to my new one.            
    
    So whatever you decide, MS., Miss, Mrs., or whatever, as long as
    you're happy with it, that's all that counts.
    
    Jane

    Thank you .18 and .20!
    
    FYI, yes, I am fairly newly married (it will be 3 years a week from
    Saturday).  I also am old fashioned, and to me, Mrs. calls for respect.
    Face it; a lot of people do not take Ms seriously.  Also, I have
    a joke with it.
    
    I am 23, but look about 16 (18 on real good days).  When I state
    that I am "Mrs. Fahel", people have a tendancy to drop things!
    
    My husband and I have honestly thought of me hyphenating my name,
    but how would you like this for a moniker:
    
    	Mrs. Karen T. Coutermarsh-Fahel
    
    So I decided just to go by
    
    Mrs. K.C. Fahel

    RE: fruit flies and such
    
    I *hate* to be picky (Not really. I'm a Virgo. I can't help it.)
    Bonnie, but surely you're not saying that a "girl's" first 
    experience at heterosexual sex makes her a "woman"??
                           
    Dawn
    

    in re .22 that was meant to be tongue in cheek
    
    B

    
    I've been known variously as "Yo, dude", "Hey you!", "Bob (by
    friends)", "Rrrrobert!" (by angry wimmyn), and "You ^%#%$@#%"
    (by a man in a smoky bear hat in 1969)...

    I don't like titles either, but when I am forced to use one, I usually
    use Ms.  However, I seem to object less to Mrs. now that I'm married
    than I did to Miss.  I'm not really sure about that one.  I've always
    just preferred my name.
    
    I've been amused at times that I didn't want to reveal much about
    myself and used my initials.  Funny, every time I did that they
    wrote back to me "Dear Mr. "  I guess everyone who just uses initials
    is male.
    
    Elizabeth  (Not Mr. E. K. Younger)  :^)
    

    
    re:  .25
    
    As in so many other areas, until recently, women who wanted to write
    science fiction had a hard time gaining acceptance (having a largely
    nerdy male audience 8^).  Though some took male psuedonyms (al� James
    Tiptree, Jr.), others just used their initials.  Everyone just assumed
    that they were men.  C. M. Kornbluth (sp?) comes to mind (though her
    name, Cyril, could have "passed").  Others escape me, but I can recall
    being shocked a few times to find out that this or that writer was a
    woman.
    
    								-- Mike

    No, you're thinking of C. L. Moore.  Kornbluth was her husband
    (I think).  "Cyril Judd" was a collaboration of Cyril Kornbluth
    and Judith Merrill.
    
    						Ann B.

I have preferred "Ms." for years.  At our house, it is rather funny, as we
are constantly getting calls for "Mrs. Johns".  Usually I just let it slip
but make my voice VERY cold.  Obviously, these people do not know us.
Shellie is not always so understanding.  :-)

It was even funnier when we got married.  Shellie joked that one of us could
be Ms. Johns and the other could be Mss (Ms's, pronounce Mizzuz).

          Carol

    Like a lot of other replies, I don't use a title at all for choice.
    When I do it's Ms.  But here in the UK, mail is nearly always addressed
    to Mrs, so I sort of tolerate it, but I do draw the line at Mrs
    K(eith) Gough!! (which my uncle uses).
    
    Gough is my husband's name; the only reason I changed names when
    I married was that my name was JORYSZ (pronounced Yorish) and I
    was tired of explaining how to spell/ pronounce it!
    
    Helen

    Well, when titles are appropriate...
    
    First of all, I use Ms.  I strongly prefer not to be defined solely
    in terms of whether I am single, married, divorced or widowed.     
    And I can't imagine why everyone who ever writes me a letter would want 
    to be bothered knowing my marital status.                          
                                                                   
    I have no problem with Miss for young girls, as one might use Master
    for young boys.  Ms. is a term of respect for women, as Mr. is for
    men.  K.C., you mention that you feel Mrs. commands more respect
    than Ms.  I don't agree, at least not from people whose respect
    is most important to me.  See, that's the whole point.  I deserve
    respect, but it is not just because I have been fortunate enough to 
    meet a man I love and plan to share my life with.
                        
    I do, however, agree that it is most respectful/considerate to address
    a person with the name and/or title that he or she prefers.
                                                              
    
    -Tracy 
    

    I guess what I mean by the respect part, is that I look so young,
    that if I went by Ms, (and this has happened to me) people treat
    me like a kid, but when I use Mrs., people realize that there IS
    an adult behind the baby-face.  I realize that most people don't
    have this problem (say what you will, but to me, it is a problem),
    and I don't go calling myself Mrs. all the time when a first name
    is appropriate.
    
    Thanx for the input!
    
    K.C.

I like Ms. Glidewell, Ms. Meigs, and Miz Miegs.  Mrs. Glidewell is OK 
from a stranger who knows I am Mrs. Glidewell.  Mrs. Richard Glidewell
would make me faint. 

>   ... I worked hard to become a Mrs.

Too bad. You shoulda done it the other way. Played hard ... partied,
dated, went steady, danced, got silly, got engaged, got un-enngaged,
flirted, partied some more, danced some more.  Worked hard?  Bah!
Humbug. 

>    I have to admit, though, that Ms is good for divorced or widowed
>    women.
    
BS.  It would be inappropriate for me to "admit" you can call yourself 
Mrs, just as it would be inapproprite for me to "admit" you can go to 
college or buy a horse. It's none of my business to "admit" what you 
can do.

    Re .-1
    
    Don't judge me!  You don't know my circumstances.  "Playing hard",
    as you put it, seems rediculous.  You make it seem that I married
    the first man that came along.  And what I meant by "admitting"
    was that I admit that I actually like Ms for something rather than
    condemming it altogether.  A serious commitment takes serious thought,
    and "playing hard" seems, to me, flighty.  Sure its fine to have
    fun, but that particular description sound like a joke to me.
    
    K.C.

    um, please folks, be cool.  
    
    KC's use of "admit" is a very common idiom-synonym for "okay you got
    me", Meigs, you know that at least as well as I do.  Give'r a break? 
    
    KC, Meigs's "play hard" is to be taken with a large grain of salt and a
    grin.  I'd bet hard cash that no actual judgement of you as a person
    was ever intended.
    
    						=maggie

    OK.  I  apologise.  Shake?
    
    K.C.

    re:.26
    
    C.M. Kornbluth was very definitely male. As Ann suggested, you're
    likely thinking of C.L. Moore (whose husband was Henry Kuttner,
    Ann).
    
    One of the "worst" examples of this type of "initializing" was
    when Ursula LeGuin sold a short story to PLAYBOY. The editor
    asked her if she would mind if the by-line read "U.K. LeGuin",
    and she consented. After it was too late to change it back, she
    realized that the reason for the request was that the magazine
    didn't want it to be obvious that a (gasp! horrors!) woman had
    a story in it (note that this was in 1969). She vowed then that
    never again would any of her work run under any other by-line
    than "Ursula K. LeGuin".
    
    --- jerry

    RE:  .36
    
    I forgot that there are some *real* card-carrying, flag-waving SF fans
    active in this conference.  I'll think twice before I make an
    observation drawn from science fiction again 8^).
    
    							-- Mike

    I dislike all titles and never mark one on a form, which
    usually results in mail getting sent to "Miss" rather than
    "Ms" or no title at all.  I'm married and quite happy about
    it, but it is *not* who I am--I'm Linda Huxtable, not Mrs.
    Huxtable.  If I've got to choose a title, I'll choose Ms.
    That identifies me as female, which has had a lot more
    influence on my life than my marital status.

    Then there's the time I filled out a credit card application
    for a local department store.  I put my name down, then put
    my husband's down as "spouse."  Now we get sale notices
    sent to "Mr & Mrs Linda Huxtable"...  :)  :)

    -- Linda

    We got some mail addressed to "Mr and Mrs Margaret M Meehan" last week.
    Of course, the letter was dated "9:00 am August 88", so it's pretty
    obvious that no one was paying attention out there.
    
    I saw a reference to "the Jimmy Carters" in The Globe yesterday. In
    fact, when a couple is well known to use different last names, they're
    still frequently referred to as "the Smiths". That always says to me,
    "Well, we know she uses her own name, but it's not that important."
    

    
    
    On the lighter side, my 8 year old son answered the phone this
    evening, and, when asked if Mrs. Bessant was home, logically
    replied "No, Mrs. Bessant lives in Syracuse.  My mom isn't home
    either."  Bless his little heart!
    
       Deb (married to a Bessant but a Wolbach to the end)
    

    re: Note 130.39 by SKETCH::SHUBIN
    
    yes, hal, that's why i call you (pl.) "The Meebins" <grin>
    
    liz

    I don't like titles, and using them manages to confuse more people
    than it helps, anyhow.  Most of the time it isn't anyone's business
    what my marital status is, or my husband's.  Even my father seldom
    used his "title" of Dr., since it often caused whoever was talking
    to him to recite medical symptoms!  (His doctorate was in electrical
    engineering; he was a college professor.)
    
    Every once in a while, we get a phone call for "Mr. Richardson"
    (since we have two phone listings, one for each of our names, of
    course).  Sometimes I just say "Close enough" and talk to the (sales,
    usually)person anyhow.  Sometimes I say that he (my dad, sniff...)
    died three years ago, or lives in Oregon (my uncle).  Sometimes
    I hand the phone to Paul (YOUNG::Young).  "Mrs. Young" is normally
    either my mother-in-law or my step-mother-in-law (normally known
    to all as Ellie and Joanne respectively).
    
    Not big on prefixes to my name - just call me: Charlotte!
       
    Then there are the phone calls for "the head of the household".
    I *always* answer those, but they are nearly always selling something
    we're not interested in anyhow. (I figure I am the "head" since
    my paycheck pays the mortgage.)

    Talking about confusion when answering a telephone;
    
    My brother and his wife lived with my parents for a short amount
    of time while I was still living at home.  When people called it
    went something like this:
    
    Caller:  Is Karen there?
    
    Answer:  Which one?
    
    C:  Karen Coutermarsh
    
    A:  Which one?
    
    C: The short one with long, dark hair.
    
    A:  WHICH ONE?
    
    We went by Mrs. and Miss, or Rick's (my brother) and Terry's (my
    mom), but people would not remember that for some reason.  And when
    I got married and tried to change my name with the post office,
    all hell broke loose with the mail between us.
    
    Another one is I knew a girl named Bobbi, whose father and brother
    were named Bobby, who was dating a guy named Bobby!
    
    Have a nice day!
    
    K.C.

    This reminds me of something...I have two cousins, Joanne and
    Jerry, who bought a house together.  Since they are brother
    and sister, they have the same last name...and yes, they
    often get mail sent to "Mr & Mrs"! 

    -- Linda

	My wife uses the prefix Mrs. to her name making it Mrs. Kimberly
	Unger-Sargent.  She decided to hyphenate when we got married.
	Although, if she had really wanted to, I would have supported her
	in just leaving her name the way it was.  

	The real problem comes when we get mail addressed to Mr. and Mrs.
	Duncan T. Sargent.  Whahoo!  The fur flies!  "Am I just nothing!"
	I hear.  I dislike having mail come like this because it upsets
	her and then me.  The trouble is that my mother does this too! 

	We have mentioned it to her (them, parents) but it still happens.
	I understand why my mother does it, shes just been conditioned to
	use that format as the default.  It's not like she is deliberately
	writing "Mr and Mrs. <husband's name>" just to irritate us.  My
	question is what is the best way of making sure she stops to think
	about the TO: before writing.  I would rather not have to say:
	"Mom, you've just got to stop addressing things to Mr. and Mrs.
	Duncan T. Sargent.  Every time you do I get my @ss kicked and hear
	this big deal about how you have no respect for Kim's identity."

	There must be a better way.

/dunc

    re .45:
    
    With 45 replies I'm sure this has been said before, so please excuse
    me for repeating it.
    
    The proper use of the "Mrs." is with the husband's full name. A
    married woman's *formal* name is Mrs. John Smith, not Mrs. Jane
    Smith.  Mrs. Jane Smith is proper for a widow.
    
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    

    re .46
    "Proper English" hasn't caught up with contemporary American usage;
    it's almost as bad as trying to write a slang dictionary (obsolete
    before printed).  I reserve titles like "Mr. and Mrs. Dale W.
    Richardson" for my Uncle Dale and Aunt Jenny (might as well list
    them in that order: he is my father's brother, while she is a (very
    dear) relative by marriage only) who are close to 80 and expect
    to be addressed that way.  But I myself feel left out if I get
    addressed as "Mrs. Paul Young" even though I am very happy that
    Paul shares my life; that is not my legal name, and, anyhow, it
    reminds me of Mrs. Paul's Fishsticks!  (Which we don't eat.)  The
    idea of "proper usage" will just have to expand to cover what is
    considered proper by other factions of society.
    
    My parents had one of those "proper etiquette" books which I remember
    being told to read (since I wasn't a very polite child!) at one
    time in my childhood.  I was horrified to discover that "proper
    etiquette" at the time that book was written (at least 25 years
    ago, I suppose) required that after a dinner party you provide not
    only ashtrays but *cigarettes*(!!) for your guests.  Times change,
    thank goodness!  (I don't even *own* any ashtrays, and I am allergic
    to smoke.  But then, no one who comes to our dinner parties smokes
    anyhow, and if they did, they would know better than to do so around
    people who get sick from it.)
    
    /Charlotte
                                

    Frozen fish is the first thing that comes to my mind, too, when
    I'm called "_Mrs. Paul_ Warren" (to which I generally don't reply)!
    Grrrr.                                                             
                                                                       
    I was looking at a Bride magazine last night (there was nothing
    else to read!).  In the advice column, there was a question about
    keeping your credit straight after your marriage, particularly if
    you change your name.  The response said, among other things, that
    regardless of what title (Ms., Mrs., etc.) and last name you use,
    you should _always_ use your own first name.  For example, credit
    card companies will issue you a card in the name of Mrs. John Smith
    if you want, based on only your (eg., Mary Smith's) credit.  However,
    credit reporting companies generally disregard/drop titles, so the
    report on that card becomes filed under John Smith.  It also said
    they seem to have a hard time dealing with hyphenated names, and
    often treat Mary Jones-Smith as Mary J. Smith--which in my opinion
    is taking undue liberty in "rewriting" what someone's name is. 
  
    
    -Tracy
    

    The women around where I grew up didn't consult ettiquette books,
    but our custom on marriage was to drop one's middle name, use our
    birth name as middle name, and take our husband's name.  So I'm
    Bonnie Randall Schutzman, my mother is Edith Cole Randall, her
    mother is Norma Maynard Cole, and my father's mother is Alice
    Landa Randall. 
    
    Letty Cotin Pogrebin and Mary Decker Slaney apparently agree with
    me. 
    
    One etiquette book I read referred to this custom as "barbaric"
    but it fits better on forms than a hyphenated name and I hate my
    middle name anyway. 
    
    --bonnie
    

    I take it that the "barbaric" part was the peculiar custom of taking on
    one's husband's name, right? :-) 
    
    -b (daughter of Eugenia Durham Rust, born Margaret Eugenia Durham; note
    that she cheated by dropping her *first* name, which she said she never
    liked)
    
    p.s. I have always been rather fond of the - was it Southern, or did it
    originate in Europe? - custom of giving one's sons their mother's
    maiden name. Hence, John Smith marries Mary Carter, and the first son
    becomes Carter Smith. (Some names don't work too well here, of course,
    but I find the custom rather charming...)

I don't use any "title" at all.  I'm Liz Wilcox.  This has some
benefit.  If someone phones and asks for Mrs. Wilcox I KNOW it's
a phone salesperson and I usually say, "She's not here, can I take
a message?".

Well, to expand, I'm Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox.  I kept my whole
name, and use my husband's last name.  This has interesting points
as someone else mentioned relative to credit cards.  I always use
Elizabeth JE Wilcox when signing my name.  Most don't know how to
deal with 2 middle initials.  I actually had one credit card that read:

Elizabeth J E* Wilcox

My mom was thrilled to drop her middle name and take on my dad's last
name.  She was Mary Gertrude Close, now Mary Close Erbe.  Not that
Gertrude isn't a good name, it's my grandmother's, but she didn't care
for it.  

    re: 51
    
    Me too!  I use Suzanne Carol Hukill Poirier and sign my name with
    middle initials C.H.  and my husband added my last name as one of
    his middle names!  Most people drop one of them, everyone asks
    what is stands for, my mother thinks it is silly, my husbands father
    told him it wasn't legal for a man to do that and on and on and
    on.  It's funny how people react when people do something a little
    different.  I rather like it myself.
    
    Suzanne

To answer the question of how to get Mom/Mom-in-law to quit addressing 
things as Mr and Mrs <husband's name>, then why not provide her with 
a bunch of ready-made stickers with your names as you would like to be
addressed and your mailing address?

          Carol

    A widowed friend of our family has informed each and every person
    that she knows "that just because my husband has died, does not
    mean that I should be addressed as Mrs. Rosalie Fiske".  Her attitude
    is that Fiske is her married name, and her husband's, and she should
    be addressed as Mrs. John Fiske - regardless of the fact that her
    husband has died.  I have been at her house when she receives the
    mail, and she gets very upset when people have addressed the envelope
    as Mrs. Rosalie.  
    
    So in regards to the proper way to address widows, I guess it's
    best to ask the woman how she wants to be called.  I would think
    that there would be very strong emotional feelings about dropping
    the husband's name, as we all can imagine.

    re .54:
    
    > So in regards to the proper way to address widows, I guess it's
    > best to ask the woman how she wants to be called. 
      
    Yes, of course. I do believe that either form is correct.
    
    --
    
    in general:
    
    I had a bizarre thought last night. I was thinking about the origin
    of the "Mrs. John Smith" name change and how it might be adapted
    to the modern world. The idea of cementing the bond of marriage
    through a name change is, I think, a good one. But the problem is
    the "loss of identity" problem, in that it is the woman who must
    change her name to that of her husband. 
    
    The obvious solution is to make the exchange symmetrical. That is, 
    when John Smith and Jane Doe get married, he becomes Mr. Jane Doe, 
    and she becomes Mrs. John Smith. These are just their *formal* names, 
    informally he is still John and she is still Jane.
    
    ... (as Steve Martin would say, "naaaaaahhh")
    
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___                          
                  ) ///
                 /
                    

    Re. /
       (  ---
    	) ///
       /	:
    
    What does that mean?????  This has been driving me crazy!
    
    K.C.

    re: .56
    
    It's his initials, in VT imitation of scipt.  Though I admit that
    for the longest time I thought it was a profile sketch of . . .
    something. 
    
    re: .55's idea --
    
    The main reason I've found for changing one's name upon entering
    marriage is that life is ever so much simpler when all the people
    living in the household share the same identifier. 
    
    In an age of frequent divorce and remarriage, and permanent
    relationships that don't involve marriage, it seems to me that
    what we need is some sort of equivalent of the VMS group id. You
    keep your individual name permanently, and then take the group ID
    of whatever household you happen to be living in. 
    
    Maybe we could even make them cumulative.  Sort of like setting a
    bunch of flag values.  Then by parsing the longword you could find
    out that you have dinner access to the Smith's, overnight access
    to the Taylor's, bedroom rights in both your parents and your
    second daughter's houses, and you're denied access to your
    ex-stepmother's house because she's said she'll call the cops if
    you ever darken her door again. 

    I'm not sure how we'd make this scheme PC-compatible.
    
    --bonnie 

re .55

    Before I changed my name, my SO's and my names were "John
    Huxtable" and "Linda Pettijohn."  One friend suggested
    instead that John change his last name to "Pettilinda"... 

    -- Linda

re: .54
>    I would think
>    that there would be very strong emotional feelings about dropping
>    the husband's name, as we all can imagine.

    especially if she's tied up her identity in his for all those years
    (e.g., Mrs. John Smith); when he's gone, she may be lost as to who she
    is anymore.


    One of my sisters lent the other sister a book published by McCall's
    Magazine in 1972 on planning engagements and weddings. I read through
    it when we visited this past weekend, and couldn't believe it. There's
    all sorts of stuff that I thought went out of style long before the
    book was published. 
    
    A lot of it dealt with how a woman is to properly identify herself
    after marriage. It did allow that "career wives" (also called "girls",
    even though they are married to "men") may use their own first names in
    business, but not in social life. There was something about signing a
    letter "Mary Jones" followed by "(Mrs. John Jones)" on the next line so
    that people would know how to address a reply. 

    Good to see that m3 and I did just about everything "wrong" in planning
    our wedding. It makes me feel so much better!

    					-- hs 

    I just thought of something concerning how widowed women of the "older"
    generation prefer to be addressed.  My grandmother (my mother's mother;
    my father's mother died when I was about a year old, so I never really
    knew her) was always "Mrs. Oscar Asbury Steele" to everyone.  Her given
    name was Mary, but no one called her that.  Mr. O. A. Steele, my
    mother's father, died fifty years ago yesterday (as mother reminded me
    when I talked to her on the phone last night), when my mother was a
    teenager.  I don't know why my grandmother didn't use her own first
    name, or why both my mother and her sister (both widows) do.  I'll have
    to ask mother the next time I talk to her.

When I mailed post cards from California last week, I addressed them

Mrs. & Mr. Murphy & family

					mkowa

Didn't do it, but was tempted to send a thank-you note to;

Mr. and Mrs. Liz Smith

    The license plate on my BLACK Corvette is "MS PJL".  I feel very
    good about that, although "SPINSTER" is very tempting!
    
    PJ