Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    One problem with asking us....
    
    Anyone who has acccess to this Notes Conference isn't "among housewives
    who don't work for wages"....
    
    I don't think you'll find an answer here...
    

    I was hoping this well-read group would know some resources . . .
    
    And I'm sure you have an opinion about "housewives who don't work
    for wages," don't you? 
    
    --bonnie 

    I guess the information I can give you would be regarding my two
    sisters and my sister-in-law.  
    
    Kathy has 6 kids and an alcholic husband that she trys to keep in
    line.  Her oldest is 16 and youngest is 1yr and I know she is always
    trying to find ways to keep things afloat in that household.  She
    pretty much does all the cooking, cleaning, budgeting, child rearing.
    She is thinking about going back to school to become a medical tech.
    
    Debbie has two kids and lives on a Air Force base.  She does daycare
    to help up and is planning to go back to College full time this
    fall.  She also does a good part of the cooking cleaning whatnot
    but her husband helps out alot more than Kathy's does.
    
    Rita, who is my sister-in-law has five kids and there are all under
    the age of 6.  She pretty much handles everything until my brother
    comes home from work and then they share the load. 
    
    None have a drinking problem. They like their lives.  I know that
    they are always looking to improve themselves and as well as improve
    their families lives.
    
    I hope this is some of the imput you may be looking for.
    
    Denise
    

    Are you all going to flame me if I admit this??  *I* am one of those
    people to whom "housewife" has a negative connotation.
    
    Two jobs before I came to DEC, I got laid off, and was a "housewife"
    for three months while I searched for another job.  I hated every
    minute of it!!  There was nothing to do and nothing to look forward
    to except an endless round of cleaning the apartment, doing the
    laundry, walking to the grocery store (I had no car), waiting for
    the library to open so I could borrow books (I had no TV, though I
    did own an AM radio), and waiting for the newspaper to arrive at
    the newstand next to grocery store so I could go over there and
    get a paper and spend the rest of the afternoon and evening looking
    at help-wanted ads and typing resumes and cover letters, which got
    mailed the next day on the way to get the next day's paper.  My
    (now ex-)husband was working 80+ hour weeks, so I was also very
    lonely.  I had been used to keeping the apartment clean, the laundry
    done, and the shopping done after work (I "only" worked about a
    50-hour week before I got laid off), so those things sure weren't
    enough to fill up my day.  And I was absolutely, positively broke;
    the additional cost of all those newspapers, typewriter ribbons,
    typing paper, and stamps to send out all those resumes was a major
    burden, and I ate a lot of spaghetti (which my ex- wouldn't eat,
    so he got more expensive stuff - he was what my mother would call
    a "pill", anyhow).  We came very close to losing the apartment,
    and any financial disaster, like major car repairs, would have finished
    us off (my family had moved 1500 miles away, so moving in with them
    wasn't an option, and his lived about a two-hour drive away, and
    did not like me much anyhow - they had hoped for a non-career-oriented
    daughter-in-law for their youngest son, and I didn't fit the bill,
    even if I did knit him sweaters and stuff like that).  Anyhow, that
    period of my life was the absolute low point.  Ugh.
    
    My mother quit her career when I was born, and never went back.
    However, she did a great deal of volunteer work (like typing Braille
    books - it is very difficult to get trained mathematicians to type
    up the special mathematics Braille code used in college textbooks,
    so her work was always in demand).  Now that my father is gone,
    she has been talking about taking a half-time job to get out of
    the house more because she is bored, even though she does a lot
    of social activities as well as the volunteer stuff; she bought
    a smaller house that is all one story after dad died so that she
    could take care of everything herself (she had back surgery about
    6 years ago, and cannot carry things up and down stairs), and she
    finds that the keeping up the house and the laundry doesn't take
    all that much time with only her living there (and she is the world's
    tidiest housekeeper - even cleaner than I am - not a particle of
    dust anywhere, everything shines, no messes, carpets vacuumed every
    day).
    
    In all fairness, the at-home life is probably more fulfilling for
    someone who has a houseful of young children - or at least not as
    boring -- as nothing but cleaning, laundering, mending, shopping, and
    cooking (all things those of us who work outside the home also do).
    Though I would imagine that you might long for some adult conversation
    and something more intellectual to discuss than who gets to swing
    on the hammock swing instead of the one with the wooden seats.
    
    I guess I wasn't cut out to be a full-time housewife....
    
    /Charlotte                         

    re: .3
    
    I'm trying to figure out how much truth there is to those
    portrayals like the one in the Stones' "Mother's Little Helper,"
    which I heard on the radio this morning -- whether things have
    changed since our mothers were raising us, and whether that change
    is for the better. 
    
    Maybe I should ask this question differently -- if you had the
    choice of staying home full time without impacting your "family"
    income, however you define family, would you do it?  Why or why
    not?  Do you think you're better or worse off than your mother?
    Happier or less happy? 
    
    --bonnie

    > If you had the choice of staying home full time without impacting
    your "family" income, however you define family, would you do it?  
    
    No, unless I was involved in a full (or nearly full) time volunteer job
    that meant a lot to me, in which case I wouldn't be "staying home".
    
    > Why or why not?  
    
    The people contact and opportunity to exercise my brain are two
    things I wouldn't want to give up. And I don't want to trade that
    for full responsibility for "keeping a nice home".
    
    > Do you think you're better or worse off than your mother?
    > Happier or less happy? 
    
    Emotionally? Financially? Because of whether or not we work? I'm
    probably the wrong person to ask, since my mother is much smarter and
    better educated than I am, and because she's worked steadily since I
    can remember. And her mother had a demanding volunteer job (and was
    better educated than me, too). And _her_ mother probably didn't "stay
    home" either (and I'm sure was better educated than I am). 
    
    One difference is that I don't have children, so perhaps my choices are
    easier to make. In addition, I believe that I needn't stay in unhappy
    situations; knowing that I have options and am not stuck probably helps
    me feel happier.
    
    Liz 

    This is a timely subject for me because I had just discussed this
    very thing with my sister when I was on vacation a couple of weeks
    ago.  She quit working a few years ago so that she could stay home
    and raise her two boys.  She was telling me about all the negative
    comments that she received from other women about her decision to
    stay home.  One woman even told her that she was a second-class
    citizen.  I was amazed that anyone would say that.  Apparently,
    where she lives, (Rochester, N.Y.) anyone that does not have a
    career outside of the home, is dirt.  My opinion to her was that
    I believe that these women are jealous of her situation.  Given
    the option, I wonder how many women would enjoy staying home and
    taking care of their children.  Incidently, she doesn't exactly
    do nothing.  She is very involved in community activities as is
    her husband.  Their meeting schedules for various functions would
    boggle the mind.  My observation of their children is that they
    are growing up well nurtured and with a better sense of confidence
    than most.  They don't seem to feel as much peer preasure as other
    children that I have observed.  Perhaps this is because they feel
    more secure at home. 
    
    Sue
    

>    Maybe I should ask this question differently -- if you had the
>    choice of staying home full time without impacting your "family"
>    income, however you define family, would you do it?  

Nope, but I might do computers for battered women, or some such.
	Mez

    re: .8, .10
    
    Liz, you said you needed "people contact," and Mez, you titled
    your note "need that peer contact."  I often say roughly the same
    thing.
    
    Does this mean you don't think you could find the kind of contact
    and stimulation you need from other stay-at-home wives?  Or
    does this express a belief that the stay-at-home wife lives
    in social isolation?  
    
    --bonnie 
    
    
    

>    Does this mean you don't think you could find the kind of contact
>    and stimulation you need from other stay-at-home wives? 

Nope, it means I'm a dweeb (a friend and co-worker called me that recently,
not without provocation). I need a structure to make friends. If I didn't
have a structure, I'd sleep, watch TV, read, and eat and drink (well,
at least that's what I do when I don't have the structure short-term).

Now, Denise (woman who doesn't work and has a family next door) is doing
fine. She bopped right over and introduced herself. She is not socially
isolated. She loves borrowing things 'out of the ordinary' (or grill
with the hot charcoal that we're done with, the microwave). And I really
enjoy her personality and chattiness.

But if the majority of my time was spent on stuff like laundry, kids,
church, other folks' lives, etc., I'd go bonkers. It suits her fine.
She's very happy. But it ain't for me.

Hmmm.... Looking at what I wrote, maybe the answer really is yep. But
I don't find the contact from co-workers either. It's the structure.
	Mez

    At the risk of horning in where I'm not wanted, I'd like to mention
    that there *are* houseHUSBANDS out there, as well.
    
    I'm 22 now, and with no immediate S.O., this is all figurative and
    sometime in the future, so understand if it doesn't seem all that
    concrete...
    
    My mother asked me recently (mothers think of the oddest questions 
    sometimes) what I would do when I had kids - would I ship them off
    to day care, or make wifey stay home, or what?
    
    I told her that at the arrival of the child, the two of us would
    sit down, and see a) who earned more, and b) who *could* work
    part-time.   Obviously, some jobs you cannot do part time.  Whoever
    seemed to be the logical choice, would stay home with the kid until
    the kid was maybe 2-3, and then off to day care.  The first six years
    (I believe) are the most important.   Up until the kid is about
    three, they have many immediate needs that require attention, and
    to "farm this out" goes against my grain.  My grandmother took care
    of me up until I was old enough to enter pre-school (age 4), and
    I can see where that was a big help, emotionally and financially,
    to my parents.
    
    When my sister came along, my mother took an extended leave of absence
    (9 months), and then when that was up, Sis was taken care of by
    a good friend of the family who had a toddler at home herself. 
    This went on until Sis was about 4, and then into day care.

    My mother admitted that she enjoyed spending the time with the child,
    but that the "routine" (diaper, cry, pat back, feed, burp, sleep,
    etc.) got real tiring after the first two weeks.
    
    If it came down to the wire, I'd stay home.
    
    Of course, I'd have to have my own computer, and modem, and I would
    spent every spare minute either doing the part-time work, or just
    contacting the world, much the same as we do with this Notes file.
    I'd go bonkers without the "contact" and the new experiences.
    
    I recall reading somewhere that the reason many husbands find other
    women more attractive is because those other women are constantly
    gaining new experiences, growing, and maturing, while wife-at-home
    is merely stagnating.
    
    My aunt is a housewife, and I really have no idea what she does
    with her time.  I think that things like grocery shopping become
    extreme wastes of time when you have to take the kid along, whereas
    if both parents are working, one would go to the store, and the
    other would watch the kid.  I recall that it took her an entire
    afternoon (about 3-4 hours) each week for grocery shopping...  The
    majority of the time was spent diddling around with the kid: "Don't
    touch that, no, no, no,..."
    
    Ever watch "thirtysomething"?  Hope, the wife, left her job when
    the baby was born, and she was happy taking care of her baby girl,
    but due to financial necessities, she had to return to work.  After
    she started working, she realized how much she missed, in terms
    of the action-packed office routine (she used to be a top-notch
    editor for a magazine).  The way the show displayed her stress between
    leaving the kid at home, and wanting the action of work, with the
    "dual-job" nature of wife/mother and worker, was good.
    
    Bill

    If I could afford to, I'd rather stay home than work.  But, I would
    have to have my own car and enough spending money.  (Enough is very
    relative, but I'd want to be able to go out to eat and to movies
    and buy books, tapes, a few clothes, or put a down payment on a
    piece of antique jewelry when I felt like it.  I wouldn't want to
    stay at home and be broke, what would be the sense?)
    
    I've never really liked any job I've ever had in 21 years of working.
     Maybe if I had a profession that I loved that paid well I'd feel
    differently.  Mostly I hate just about everything to do with business
    and industry and I hate the day-in-day-out repetitiveness of working,
    being on time, etc.  I wish it could all just be conducted without
    me and that I didn't need the money to get by.  I'd rather be taking
    painting and drawing classes, learning to make a quilt, taking care
    of a flower garden, reading, and just hanging out.  Maybe I'd get
    sick of it after a couple of years and want some kind of a job,
    but after working for so many years at boring jobs it would take
    me awhile to get sick of not working.
    
    My mother took care of my daughter which was very helpful.  I went
    back to work when she was 3 months old because we needed the money.
     Ideally, I would have liked to have stayed home, and stayed happily
    married instead of working forever and getting divorced.
    
    I think in some ways my mother did have a happier life than I do,
    but *I* wouldn't have been completely happy with her life either.
     She had two kids and stayed home.  She kept very busy.  They had
    a house on 5 acres of land and she always had a large vegetable
    garden and flower garden, mowed the lawn, shoveled snow, and went
    for long walks in the woods.  She also read a lot, and when we kids
    were little she used to play games with us all the time.  I think
    she was happy.  She and my father were very happily married, but
    they never had enough money and were always pinching pennies which
    I would hate.
    
    Lorna
    
    
    

    Will you marry me, Lorna?  I think I need a wife :) :) :)
    
    Seriously, you bring up one of the things I remember noticing from
    my earliest days.  My mother, like yours, stayed home taking care
    of the family, raising a garden, and managing the family income
    creatively so we could live comfortably even though we didn't have
    much money.  My grandmother worked for wages most of her life --
    driving a potato picker when she was younger and that was the only
    work available, then later as a clerk in a clothing store, a
    bouquet-maker in a florist's, and, after my grandfather died, as a
    bartender because it offered more social contact.  I should note
    that these are all considered good jobs where I grew up; a
    "career" means you're a bank officer or an insurance salesman. 
    
    I was aware even then that my grandmother had an independence that
    my mother didn't have.  My grandmother could take a few vacation
    days from the clothing store, pack a suitcase, and take off to
    visit her sister for a few days.  My mother always wanted to visit
    her stepsister but there wasn't enough money in the family budget.
    My grandmother could go out shopping and buy a new blouse because
    she felt like it; my mother had to plan new clothing for herself
    after everybody else was clothed, because after all, nobody saw
    what she wore around the house.
    
    I don't think my grandmother was happier than my mother, and our
    family life was always satisfying, but I knew in the back of my
    mind that if for some reason it wasn't, if my father lost his job
    or something else went wrong, my mother didn't have very many
    choices while my grandmother could just leave. 
    
    I've learned since then that about when I was born, my mother's
    mother, who also worked for wages most of her life, left her
    husband.  She lived in a little apartment upstairs from a music
    store and I loved to visit her and dream of some day owning one of
    their pianos -- but I digress.  I don't remember any of the events
    leading to their divorce, but I imagine that's what put the idea
    of money meaning independence into my head. 

    --bonnie

    I am about to take a break from work to care for a new baby.  I
    have already decided that I will not fall into the "lazy" housewife
    routine.  Instead, I want to learn about my four-year-old and about
    the new baby.  
    
    The most difficult aspect of working and having children for me,
    as for many people, is putting my child in daycare.  We had a great
    deal of trouble with him about a year ago.  We examined our lifestyle
    and decided that changes had to be made.  The result was that my
    husband started his own business and spends much more time at home.
    Even if he isn't participating directly with our son, he is there
    and that is what our son needed.  Since the change, my son's personality
    has changed for the better, as has our home life in general.
    
    I don't believe it is beneficial for either a parent or a child to 
    be apart for 12-14 hours a day.  The responsibility imposed upon the 
    daycare provider is immense and the worry that the child is learning 
    the proper values (or the parents' values) is a burden on the parents.
    
    I realize that the child learns most of his values from his parents.
    But when a child is so young, he also learns from the person he is with
    most of his waking hours, which, unfortunately, is the daycare
    provider.                             
    
    Given the choice, I would like to stay at home to ensure that my
    children have the best environment.  That does not mean that I would
    spend all my time filing my nails, watching soaps, and grocery shopping.
    Children are fun and while housework is a fact of life, it certainly
    isn't the most important factor in my life now or if I were at home.
    
    My child is growing up so fast and I am sorry I am missing most of it. 
    What I am feeling is probably what many fathers feel or felt in
    previous generations.                                          
    
    I, for one, would recognize significant benefits by staying at home.
    Unfortunately, in these economic times it is out of reach of most
    of us.  So look for me again in about 4 months.
    
    
                                   

    It is my feeling that most of us have failed to truly understand
    the opportunities for growth and the skills required to perform
    this job and to come out a two performer.
    
    First of all a housewife has to have many of the skills of a Project
    Leader.  To do well you have to be a self starter.  You have to
    be proactive.  You have to have a plan and a schedule.  You have
    to be able to deal with people...you have to be able schedule events
    and coordinate activities.   There are many benefits, activities,
    sales, etc.  in the community a good housewife is aware of all this.
    A good housewife knows how to negotiate the services required to
    maintain the household.  
    
    A good housewife needs some financial background.  Needs to know
    how to project future expenses...how to record expenses...how to
    maintain records.
    
    A good housewife needs experience in good nutrition....to know how
    to purchase foods...how to store surplus...how to anticipate needs.
    
    It could go on and on...but maintaining the household and raising
    children can be a challenge, it can develop skills not used in a
    more specific career and if it is tedious and boring to some
    individuals I expect they might lack some of the creativity and
    imagination that separates the two performers from the threes.
    
    Today's housewife is different than when was a young woman because
    I feel there are two distinct groups.  The first group is the
    individual who choses to stay home out of laziness.  They perform
    and meet the minimum requirements and they enjoy the soaps....the
    lack of structure.  But I have seen a different group of women 
    that have chosen to stay home.  I have seen a lot of super stars,
    women who have made the decision to stay home and have been extremely
    creative in managing their income, in utilizing available resources
    and in raising their children.  
    
    And yet when a woman is a good housewife taking her responsibilities
    seriously there seems to be a negative attitude.  One I cannot put
    my finger on...but how often have you heard someone say "She is
    an excellent housewife".  How often have you heard someone say "She
    is so clean I am uncomfortable in her home"?  I think the reason
    people say that is because their home does not compare...not because
    of any action of the housewife.     
                                    
    We will have come a long way when we as feminists take housewifes
    into our fold as career women in their own rights...and when we
    recognize that it is a feminist issue.  We have allowed men to devalue
    the role and in so doing have eliminated a very exciting and
    challenging career option.
    

>    if it is tedious and boring to some
>    individuals I expect they might lack some of the creativity and
>    imagination that separates the two performers from the threes.
 
er, since I have said publicly that being a housewife isn't for me, I am
insulted and hurt by this statement. I can only assume I must have something
equally hurtful in my reply. Please point out what it is. As a woman in a man's
world, and a UI expert in an operating systems group, I know what it's like to
be trivialized. And I try not to do it to others.

	Mez

    Mez,
    
    Housework *is* tedious and boring.  And Sisyphian.
    
    If all a housewife has is housework -- well!  If a woman who is
    a housewife has/does other things as well, that is different.  She
    isn't JustAHousewife.
    
    						Ann B.
    
    P.S. Gotta run.  I hope this reconciles the two views.

    Mez did you say being a housewife was tedious and boring or did
    you just say that it was not for you.  Being an engineer is not
    for me but that does not trivialize the career.
    
    Ann the objective of my note is that being a housewife is not all
    housework...just as being an accountant is all recording in accounts.
    
    Just a housewife is a demeaning phrase...so we put cutesy little
    titles like home engineer.
    
    Why not keep the word housewife and give it the respect it deserves!