Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    
    plutonic: of deep igneous or magmatic origin.
                                                   
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    Re .1, oh cut the crap, you know she means platonic.
    
    That's the trouble with some of you people (men/engineers/you people).
    You care more about correct spelling and punctuation than you do
    about people's feelings!
    
    Lorna
     

    Re: .3
    
    I agree.  A private mail message would have been kinder.
    
    I already have my comments in in MENNOTES.
    
    				Steve

    re .3, .4:
    
    Normally I do use mail to point out typos and spelling errors (and
    quite a few people can attest to it) but I thought it humurous that 
    "plutonic" actually had a definition, and one that conjured up an
    image of lava people.
    
    I guess everyone is completely addicted to :-) and assume the lack
    thereof is never meant humorously.
    
                                                   
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    Actually, I always thought it referred to the relationship that Goofy has
    with his dog....
    
    				Steve

    re:.6
    
    Certainly not, as Pluto is Mickey's dog, not Goofy's.
    
    --- jerry

    Re: .7
    
    Whatever you say, though he shows up with Goofy in all the cartoons
    I've seen.  Makes sense, though.
   {
    				Steve

    re: the last few
    
    Oh you guys are a lot of help.  This person is asking for help and
    all you can do is crack wise about an unfortunate typo error.  Lovely.
    
    Mike

    
    Thanks, Mike. To re-iterate, please limit replies to this note to
    responses to note 107.9. 
    
    Thank you
    Liz Augustine
    Womannotes co-moderator

    I have  a  very  close  (platonic)  relationship  with  one  of my
    ex-girlfriends.  I can't imagine giving up my friendship with her,
    and  would  be  livid  if anyone asked me to. On the other hand, I
    wouldn't  spend  a weekend with her and hide it from my partner. I
    would drop in for lunch with her whenever we're in the same town.

    I've always  stayed  on  speaking  terms  with  my  exes  (my 30th
    birthday  party was given by my two previous girlfriends), and one
    of  them  is  among my best friends. This hasn't been a problem in
    subsequent relationships.

    I can see spending a weekend with an ex, but certainly in seperate
    beds.  In  fact,  I've  done  it.  I  don't believe that I have to
    announce  which friend I'm visiting to my SO. If she doesn't trust
    me  then we've got a problem. I certainly wouldn't insist on an SO
    telling  me  where  she  is  all  the  time.  To  me  an exclusive
    relationship  means  emotionally  and sexually exclusive, but does
    not preclude friendships with women, including ex-girlfriends.

--David

    I had already replied in MENNOTES, but will summarize my response
    here.
    
    The following text I think is the key issue:
    
>    I'm finding it hard to forgive him and to trust him as much as I
>    should be trusting him in a solid relationship.  Other than this,
>    our relationship couldn't be better.

    I don't think there can be much of a relationship without trust.
    In this case, from the information I have, I conclude that he
    (the boyfriend) does not feel that he is committed to Pat, yet possibly
    expects a commitment in turn from her.  He is trying to "have his
    cake and eat it too".  Maybe this works for some people, but I would
    not accept it in a relationship.
    
    There have been a couple of times I've considered staying friends
    with an ex-lover.  It just hasn't worked out - things and emotions
    just get too tangled up.  I can be cordial to them, and talk once
    in a while, but we have never been able to remain close.
    
    Pat, I don't know what you want to do, but if I were in your
    position I would tell him that I was uncomfortable with him remaining
    so close to his ex-girlfriend and that if he can't put some distance
    between them then I'd bow out.  I just couldn't live with a situation
    like that.
    
    					Steve

    Well, I have been in this situation numerous times, but from other
    perspectives...both as the "other" girl, and as the partner who
    wishes to maintain friendships with ex-SO's.
    
    My feelings on staying friends with ex-SO's are this: I have put
    a lot of time and effort into developing a close, understanding
    realtionship with someone, and I don't want to lose all that simply
    because one or the other of use decides that we can't continue a
    romantic relationship. Also, close and true friends are few and
    far between, and I can't afford to lose one. And finally, romatic
    relationships seem to come and go much faster than true friendship,
    and I would hate to discover after yet another breakup that I had
    lost off my *true* friends.
    
    Some of my very best friends are ex-SO's.  If any man told me he
    didn't want me to continue seeing these friends, not only would
    I get very upset, and refuse to do it, I might start wondering if
    he was as good a friend as he says he is...a true friend wants you
    to be happy, and wouldn't ask you to give up something very important
    in your life that makes you happy.  I have been dating a man who
    was very insecure about my friendships with my ex-SO's.  It really
    bothered him, and I know there were many times he wishes he could
    just demand that I not see them anymore.  But even if such a demand
    would have worked (which it wouldn't have) he loved me to much to
    take that special part of my life away from me.    
    
    As for ths guy not *telling* you about going away with this girl,
    I would start to wonder. That would *really* bother me...there seems
    to be a eral problem with trust here, one that goes way beyond a
    friendship with an SO.  You should probably talk to him...not so
    much about this other girl, but about what would make him deceive
    you like that.  And remember...it's not the other woman who is the
    problem, it's him. Even if you convinced him not to see her, a
    deceptive person is still a deceptive person.  I think you should
    really be concentrating more on this deception issue than this exSO.
              
    Diana
      !

    I think it's great for people to remain friends with former SO's
    but I don't think platonic friendship with the opposite sex should
    include spending weekends alone together if one of the people is
    supposed to be involved in an exclusive relationship with somebody
    else.  If the friendship is so platonic, and above-board, why weren't
    you included in the weekend?  To use an old fashioned saying - I
    wouldn't stand for it.  I don't think he has a platonic friendship.
     I think he's cheating on you.
    
    Lorna
    

    I'd forego agreement in a relationship, but not honesty, trust,
    and openness. 
    
    Two people can disagree politely, but there's nothing polite
    about lying and sneaking.
    
    Dana

    RE:Lorna- 107.15
    
    I agree with Lorna, he sounds like a cheat!
    
    Dinner maybe, but no weekend.......
    
    Sheryl

    re .17 , .15:
    
    I don't know that I would go so far as to say that he _is_ cheating,
    but I think you are entirely justified in losing your trust of him.
    I would seriously doubt the truthfulness of the statement "...but
    nothing happened." His actions are very suspicious.
    
    I don't think the mere fact that they were once lovers is sufficient
    cause to doubt him, it is the other behavior that warrants it.
    
                                                   
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"I conclude that he (the boyfriend) does not feel that he is committed to Pat,
yet possibly expects a commitment in turn from her."

I don't get that feeling...  I get the feeling that he *really* wants to be
friends with his ESO, but feels very threatened about bringing that out in the
open because of what reaction it he thinks he will get.

There are two sides to honesty.  One is being honest and open, the other is
accepting honesty and openness.  If it's not 'ok' to say whats going on, which
you feel is perfectly harmless, how are you going to be honest?

There are a couple of other issues which other people have pointed out also...

JMB 

    I disagree  with  the several responses saying that he's cheating.
    He maybe, but I certainly am not convinced. I have often spent the
    better  part  of a weekend with an ex-SO, sometimes the two of us,
    sometimes  with  others and we talk, or go to a movie or a show or
    any  of  the  myriad  other  things that I would do with any other
    friend.  That's all that happens. Some of the time my then current
    SO  would join us, other times she wouldn't. 

    It's all  a  matter  of  trust.  I  can't believe that I will ever
    tolerate  an SO telling me that I can't be friends with someone. I
    can  deal  with  her saying "I don't want to be around one of your
    friends.", as long as I can see him or her when I want to.

--David

I must say that, since I can see myself spending a weekend in the same _bed_
with a person of either gender without compromising my sexually-exclusive
relationship with my honey, I can't say that this guy can't do the same
thing (even if he _is_ a guy [joke alert!]). I could even do it with ex-SO's.
I'd say we just don't have enough facts (as, through the wonders of notesfiles,
we often don't).
	Mez

    When a person goes away for a weekend with someone of the same sex
    or the other sex there is no way to insure that the couple has not
    been intimate.
    
    There are two issues here that I always find difficult to understand.
    First why is it that some people find the weekend okay as long as
    there is not sex.  Two people would be together for almost 48 hours
    of which maybe four to six might be spent engaging in sex, twelve
    to sixteen sleeping and twenty-six hours having fun.  I would be
    jealous of the twenty-six hours that they had fun together!
    
    My logic is to enjoy people when I am with them and hopefully they
    will enjoy me also and want to spend most of their time with me.
    
    But the second issue is one I think people are just beginning to
    focus on is friendship in relationships.  In the 50's when I got
    married...the thought never occurred to me that my husband and I
    should be friends.  After many years, reading and observing and
    practicing I have found that the men that I enjoy and love the most
    are my friends first.  Just because we decide for whatever reason
    that our relationship can't mature it does not mean I want to give
    up the friendship.
    
    Not everyone is like myself...and I understand that...I guess I
    would have to back out of a relationship if my SO did not feel
    comfortable with my philosophy.

    Re .22, I for one don't blame you for the way you feel.  I think
    I'd feel the same.  What can you do if you really love him and don't
    want the relationship to end yet?  Not much maybe.  Try to talk
    to him about it and tell him that even though you trust him, you
    really would prefer he not spend that much time alone with a woman
    no matter who she is or what they do, that your perception of a
    monogamous relationship doesn't include that much time apart.  It
    sounds to me like he wants to have his cake and eat it, too.  But,
    what can you do if you still want him but tell him how you feel
    and wait and see how things go?
    
    Lorna
    

    
    It somehow strikes me as a typical reaction to assume that
    they were intimate because you cannot prove they weren't.
    
    I wonder whether the same conclusion would be reached were a 
    man doing the complaining...
    
    Its nice to know that men enjoy such a sterling reputation...

    One of my first boyfriends is my best friend (if indeed there *is*
    any one best friend).  If I were to lose his friendship, my life
    would not be as full and happy.
    
    If I were to spend a weekend alone with him now, we would probably
    toss around the idea of "being physically intimate" for about one
    picosecond before trudging off to separate beds; we have already 
    _seen_ what it's been like to be in a relationship together, and we 
    know just how bad that can be (despite the fact that we got along 
    better with each other in bed than either of us have with anyone 
    since).  
    
    If my current lover(s?) were to forbid me to spend a weekend alone
    with this man despite assurances that "nothing" would happen, then
    I'm afraid I would be more likely to leave the lover (break the
    engagement, start divorce proceedings, etc) than leave that friend.
    
    I know this is not _exactly_ what you describe (since the aspect
    of lies has not entered the picture), but I have a hard time
    understanding your anger; if someone I love spends "enough" time
    and attention on me (is there _ever_ enough?), then who cares if
    s/he has outside friendships which are very intimate?
    
    Lee

    To me, it doesn't matter if they were intimate or not.  It is the
    hiding of the information that would bother me.  If things were
    as open and above-board as the boyfriend claims, why didn't he talk
    about it beforehand?
    
    					Steve

    
    
    
    It's difficult to imagine two people as 'platonic friends' when
    one of the individuals has professed "love" for the other.  Does
    this not preclude the idea of 'only friends'?
    
                     D.
    
    

    in re .28  It is entirely possible to go from loving someone
    to being a good friend...and you can still love them in the sense
    of caring a great deal for  their well being...and still be
    really and truely a friend.
    
    Bonnie

"He didn't respect me or care about me enough to even discuss it with me to see
how it would affect me and our relationship.  He lied." 

"He thought he could have everything - keep me and keep a friend and spend time
with her." 

Horse Hockey!  (And I have good reason to say it)  He probably knew on some
level or another what affect it would have.  Would you have "discussed" it, as
in two people communicating to reach a ***mutual*** decision?  My guess is no.
Why is it that you set the situation up that would not allow the question to be
raised? 

He wanted to have something that he didn't see any reason why he (and other
people here) shouldn't have.  If you are the type who throws old lovers off a
cliff into the sea when you are done with them and you insist that your SO do
the same, then get out of the relationship. 

But *don't* make the guy out to be the heavy.  I think you set him up to fail
(IE not talk about it).  You are as much to blame for the outcome as he is. Now
you can either walk away from it, or work on it in *both* of you, or something
else... 

"It somehow strikes me as a typical reaction to assume that they were intimate
because you cannot prove they weren't."

This strikes me as an accurate description of the situation.  This is not
"Trust".  Trust is not when you can prove your SO is not 'doing it' on the side.
Trust is when you cannot prove it, or the situation looks suspicious and you can
say, "I don't care what it looks like; I trust him."

JMB 

    all right Lorna--my feelings exactly.  I'm new to WN and have already
    noticed many trivia responses

    You know, this is fascinating stuff, but what happened to .0?
    
    Your ex-lovers are the ones who understand what makes you tick the
    best, and they have the advantage of not being currently emotionally
    and physically involved.
    
    The women who know me best are my ex-lovers...  That goes both ways;
    I know them better then their current SO's, and everybody is happy.
    
    Bill

    The original base-note, re-entered for the author who wishes to
    remain anonymous.
    --------------------------------
        
    Any advice for the below situation?
    
    My boyfriend and I have been seeing each other for a year now.
    About 5-6 months ago, way after we had become 'exclusive', he
    went away for a weekend with an ex-lover with whom he had kept 
    up a close platonic friendship after he found that he did not 
    love her.  He chose not to tell me about this incident at the
    time because he thought it would give me mixed messages.
    He said that they were just friends and that it was something 
    he had promised her some time before we had become exclusive and
    that although they had stayed in the same room that weekend, 
    nothing happened.  He had made his feelings towards her very clear
    before he had started dating me.  Apparently, she was a rebound
    relationship and she had been very supportive during the tough
    times after he's broken up with his girlfriend of 2.5 yrs.
    
    He regretted having had that kind of relationship with this woman
    and that when he saw that it wasn't right, he broke it off.
    But he had found someone who valued as a good friend.
    
    Meanwhile, she had fallen in love with hime and told him of her
    feelings about 5 months ago.  He made his feelings clear to her
    again.  I wanted him to resent me for putting my foot down, so
    I'd let him handle this - I tried to be supportive, but could not
    flat out tell him that it would be easier for all of us if he
    didn't see her anymore for awhile.  Again, he did something without
    talking it over with me first - he promised her that he would 
    remain good friends with her and spend time with her and told her
    that he always stood by his principles.
    
    I was very hurt about the weekend trip that he hid from me, that
    he'd never mentioned her before, that he'd promised her his
    continued friendship without talking it over with me to see how
    it would affect me and our relationship.  Since then, that woman
    has called at hours and days when he and I have out private time
    - namely, during early morning on weekends and evenings on weekends.
    He seems to think that she is not doing anything intentionally to
    disrupt our relationship - he only has positive things to say
    about her.  There are other incidents - but too complicated and
    would take too long.
    
    Basically, he did not respect my opinion enough or care about me
    and our relationship enough to talk over his intentions about the
    weekend and about retaining that relationship with this woman.
    I had trusted him and he had betrayed that trust.
    
    He continues to communicate with her.  It has caused me great pain
    and I've been miserable for those months.  He understands that I
    am in pain, but he doesn't understand why.  He sees nothing wrong
    with what he's doing.  Just the mear mention of her upsets me.
    
    I'm finding it hard to forgive him and to trust him as much as I
    should be trusting him in a solid relationship.  Other than this,
    our relationship couldn't be better.
    
    We're considering counseling.
    
    Any advice would be appreciated!
    
    
    Anon.
    
    

    An update from the base-note author
    ------------------------------------
    
    This woman is seeing someone - has been for 2-3 months now.
    I've met her and her friend on my boyfriend's suggestion and
    also to see if that would help my feelings any.  Unfortunately,
    I was extremely uncomfortable with the meeting and it only
    seemed to add fuel to the flame.
    
    She supposedly goes away on weekends with this new boyfriend of
    hers- but why does she call my boyfriend up during times that she
    should be her boyfriend?  She may be waiting in the wings - although
    my boyfriend assures me that she is happy with her boyfriend and
    that she is not waiting in the wings at all.  It seems that this
    woman wants to settle down and have kids right away due to the
    biological clock which supposedly ticks away during women's mid-30's
    She is 32 - 5yrs older than my boyfriend.
    
    My boyfriend wants me to become friends with her because he really
    feels that if she and I got to know each other and I talked to her
    about this whole thing - I would feel better about it.
    
    Does anyone think I should try this?
    
    Actually, the problem is not with her directly, but the problem
    is between my boyfriend and myself.
    
    My boyfriend's friends seem to trust him till they're 
    'blue in the face'.  Should I?
    
    Do I have some valid concerns?
    
    Anon.
    

    Another note from the base-note author
    ---------------------------------------
    
    In the previous note [107.35] - when I mentioned that this woman 
    wanted to settle down right away, I meant to say that my boyfriend
    told me this and all the other stats that wend along with this.
    He said he wouldn't be surprised if she got married in the next
    year or two.
    
    Anon.
    

                                 -< He Lied. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    
    
    Of course there's got to be trust - but I'm talking about a 
    deliberate breech of that trust!
    
    He never mentioned even going away anywhere - he thought I'd just
    let it slide.  He didn't respect me or care about me enough to
    even discuss it with me to see how it would affect me and our
    relationship.  He lied.  He didn't want to forgo the trip or
    to lost me - he wanted his 'cake and eat it too'!
    
    He thought he could have everything - keep me and keep a friend
    and spend time with her.  His ex probably would have understood
    if he had explained to her that it would bother me - but he didn't
    even bother to do that!
    
    Of course I'm hurt!  He place this trip and her more important
    than me and my feelings.
    
    That was wrong!
    
    You say - am I going to condemn him forever?  I'm trying so hard
    concentrate on our current relationship and think positively -
    one never completely forgets pain though and even if I may put
    it out of my mind, the thoughts will pop up at unexpected times.
    
    - anon    

Doing this via notes is grodey, but I'll try.
    
re: .35
    
>    hers- but why does she call my boyfriend up during times that she
>    should be her boyfriend?  She may be waiting in the wings - although

Different people have different ideas on how to conduct a friendship.
It seems to me yours and hers don't agree. But you can't make somebody
else conduct a friendship the way you would, even if they're conducting
it with your lover. Take care of yourself; _stop_ giving yourself grief
over something your can't change. You deserve better.

>    My boyfriend wants me to become friends with her because he really
>    feels that if she and I got to know each other and I talked to her
>    about this whole thing - I would feel better about it.

>    Does anyone think I should try this?

Nah. Pick your own friends. And let what's-his-name pick his own. Join
him on group activities with people you like. Let him go alone with
people you don't, or when it's not a group activity.

>    Actually, the problem is not with her directly, but the problem
>    is between my boyfriend and myself.
    
>    My boyfriend's friends seem to trust him till they're 
>    'blue in the face'.  Should I?

Yes, that's it! And people here know even less than you do about the
specific people involved. They can only draw parallells, and spell out
assumptions.

That said, here's mine:

If there's something you need from this relationship, and you're not
getting it, can the relationship. If there's something you'd like, you
have to start weighing pros and cons. Personally, I never fooled around
with anyone I didn't trust (at least as far as the particular relationship
called for). Stop driving yourself crazy trying to change others. Take
care of yourself.
	Mez

    
    
    More cheap advice.....
    
    I haven't been in this situation before, but I can tell you how
    I've handled things that drove me bonkers in relationships I've been
    involved in.
    
    Sit down and talk, if you haven't done so already.  Tell him exactly
    why you're feeling like you do.  Ask him exactly what he is looking
    for from this relationship.  Ask him exactly what he wants from
    you, what he wants from his "friend", etc.  Tell him what you're
    expecting from him.  Ask why he felt he had to keep that weekend
    from you.
    
    As other have suggested, maybe you and he are looking for different
    things.  Maybe not.  But I think you owe it to yourself to at least
    attempt to get some questions answered and try to straighten things
    out in your head.
    
    Talking (although sometimes LOUDLY ;^)  ) has helped me in the past.
     You may not hear what you want to hear, but at least you'll know
    what's going on and in the long run you'll be better off.
    
    Good luck and please let us know how you're doing.
    
    Cherie