Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    
    	Seems John has many characteristic traits of ACODFs; Alcohol
    use, attention/approval seeking, blaming (other directed behavior),
    inconsistancy, and a deep sense of anger.
    
    	What you could do to help him would be to learn as much as possible
    about the ACODF syndrome and what it means to be an adult child.
    
    	This is NOT a speculative comment on your family, as these kinds
    of problems can arise from something as simple as John's perception
    of being sorta "singled out". I mean, there were two girls, two
    parents, and John.
    
    	However, I will point out that in the context of .0, it seems
    from a single sided view, i.e. John "kicked the family in the face",
    John "Was a problem to the parents", John "is a strain to parents
    marriage", John is "a miserable person", "Nothing ever helps" John,
    and no one knows "what to do *with*" John.
    
    	Well, what's John's view? Maybe he feels kicked in the face.
    Maybe he feels that his parents were a strain on him? Maybe he's
    acting out something that really has nothing to do with *who* he
    really is. Ask him sometime; if he gets angry...
    
    	This is a very painful thing you've described. Unfortunately,
    the level of pain could be very difficult to penetrate. It will 
    take a lot of bravery from everyone to face it, hopefully, together.   
               
    	Learn about this Adult Child syndrome - it's the best thing
    you can do right now.
    
    	Joe Jas                                     

    
    
    My oldest brother was like yours.  We tried everything to help him
    and nothing worked.  What did work was my mom finally kicking him
    out of the house.  Now that sounds a little harsh, but it made him
    realize that he had in fact hit rock bottom and he had to help himself.
    All the love and help your family can give him will not help him
    until he decides he needs help.  I don't know if he is living with
    you, but if he is this may be a solution.  He is 29 years old and
    has to clean up his act before it is too late.
    
    I'm sure his girlfriend is trying her best, but again she can't
    help until he decides to help himself.  Don't let him put this strain
    on your family anymore.  It is not fair to any of you.  It is not
    that you aren't being fair to him, he is not being fair to you.
    Sure he has a problem, but it is his to solve not yours.
    Again this sounds harsh, but he has been putting you and your family
    through some pretty harsh times.  Don't be responsible for him anymore.
    
    
    As far as your wedding,  if it were me I would ask him not to come.
    I had to tell my brother that he wasn't invited to my college
    graduation which was really hard for me, but I would have been hurt
    if he had acted in his usuall manner.  That day is just to important
    to you and your future husband to have his selfishness ruin it.
    Whatever you choose to do I wish you the best of luck in your new
    life.

    Try Al-anon. There is a conference on the notesfile, where people
    can relate to this very thing. There are meetings in every city,
    state and country. I attend weekly meetings. They are great!!!
    
    Here is the conference:
    
    Contact MYRRH::JOVAN for membership
    
    Good luck!
    
    Sheryl

	This really was familiar to me. I have some friends who went through
a very similar experience. The solution that they finally came to was to have
the son leave.

	At the best, this is _very_ painful. Especially in their case as the
son was adopted and they had to cope with judgements they made on themselves
about failing as parents and rejecting this child. (He was 21 at the time.)

	I had suggested to them, and will suggest now, that you get in touch
with a program called "Toughlove". All of you need the support of people who
have gone/are going through this. (This isn't as rare as you might believe.)

	I don't have the number, but there is a group in Framingham, Ma that
could probably give you further information. In addition, there is a book
that is available in paperback that tells about the program. They have 10
rules that _everyone_ in the situation should follow. For most people, these
rules are what they would do anyway, but for the family member that is causing
the problems they can be quite tough.

	The rule that I like the best (and I try to use it in my own family)
is: The essence of family life is _not_ togetherness - it is cooperation. I
have thought about this frequently and as time passes, it becomes clearer
and clearer to me that this is the case. Family members _must_ cooperate with
each other in order that the family grows as a whole. If one of the members
constantly is a disruption, then that person must modify their behavior for
the good of the whole. I am not saying that we all must be clones and
cooperate blindly - we can each still be our own person - I am saying that if
a person's behavior is disruptive then it must be modified.

	Sorry to ramble - I do know the pain that this causes. I'll be
thinking of you often. Please let all of us know how you are doing.

	Wishing you a peaceful life,	tomc

    
    I know first-hand the feeling of helplessness that you must feel,
    wanting to help him but unable to reach him.
    
    The truth is, you can't help him.  Helping him is enabling him.
    As long as he doesn't have to stand on his own, he will lean on
    anyone that will let him.  Your brother needs to fall flat on his
    face and not have a hand waiting to help pick him up.  It's called
    Tough Love and is a difficult thing to do.
    
    Your brother sounds like the classic alcoholic, maybe a cross-
    addicted alcoholic.  He's a very sick person.  Keep in mind that
    his words and actions are those of the alcohol/drugs.  A person
    with a drinking problem is speaking/acting under the influence
    and not as himself.
    
    I'm married to an addict.  My husband is a great person underneath
    the drug addiction.  But, his habit started when he was age 9 with 
    alcohol and progressed to harder drugs by age 12.  He is now a
    cross-addicted alcoholic with addictions to cocaine & heroin as well.
    He's been through 7 treatment programs in the past 2 1/2 years, the
    6th one asked him to leave.  After a recent O.D., he spent 30 days
    in the 7th treatment center and is now in a half-way house for the
    next 12 months.  As a result, we have not lived together since
    November (we have a toddler that I will not subject to this).

    As hard as it may be, the best thing you, your family and his girl-
    friend can do for your brother is nothing.  Just leave him alone.  
    As my husband's therapist told me, "as long as his pain level stays 
    the same, he has no reason to change."  Let him feel some pain.  As 
    the pain level increases, he'll have to make a choice - continue to 
    feel pain or do something about it.
    
    Try and understand the mentality of an alcoholic for a moment.  The
    alcoholic/addict is a very "guilty" person, full of self-hate.  If
    you were feeling really down, wouldn't you do something to try and
    cheer yourself up?  To the alcoholic, in a sense that's what he's 
    doing.  Drinking helps to hide things like fear, guilt, or lack of
    self-worth.  Problems just don't seem to be as big as they were before
    the drinking started.  When the drunk is worn off, they're back in
    the same feelings of self-hate, etc. again and the vicious cycle is
    started.

    I strongly suggest you request membership to the Al-Anon Conference
    and the AA Conference (I co-moderate AA).  Meanwhile, remember: you 
    didn't cause it, you can't control it, and you can't change it - ONLY 
    he can.
    
    Hope this helped.
    - Beckie    
    

    have you ever heard of Tough Love?  I'm not sure about specifics,
    but you lay down the law to your loved ones, and get tough with
    them, in hopes they will rectify whatever is ruining
    their/your/whomever's lives when they realize you won't put up with
    it anymore.
    
    can anyone espouse further?  
    
    -Jody

    You and your family must love your brother very much.  That caring
    makes it so much harder to deal with your situation than if you
    didn't give a hoot.  No one can "fix" your brother.  And you are
    not being disloyal by setting limits on what you'll allow him to
    do around you.  ALANON is a good place to turn.  There's a real
    difference in trying to change someone and in trying to change what
    is okay in your own life.  Your brother is the one to change himself.
    You are the one to change your life.  Trying to be kind, protect,
    fix your brother isn't really kind in the long run.  Setting clear
    boundaries is terribly difficult but can be done.  Good luck.  I've
    been there myself and it's a heartrending situation.  
         
    Dondi

    My mother and step-father tried ToughLove with one of my step-sisters
    years ago.  In our case, it (among many other things/counselors/groups)
    did not help.  My step-sister just did not want to be helped.  She
    was finally taken out of our house, and custody was given to the state.
    She was in and out of foster homes, halfway houses, etc.  Today,
    she is still "rebelling".  She can't hold a job, doesn't have an
    education, still uses drugs, and she's about to be married to someone
    as soon as he gets out of jail (she's 20).  
    
    The moral of all this is that the person has to want to change.  If 
    they don't, there's no use trying to force it.  The best you can do 
    (and about the ony thing you *can* do ) is help yourself deal with
    it.  It's not easy to just let a loved one alone in such a case,  
    but for your own sanity, it's necessary.  You can only hope the person 
    eventually takes a good look at himself/herself and decides to change.
    
    If you want to talk further, drop me a note.
    
    My thoughts are with you.

    -Amy-

    A reply from the author of 106.0.
    
-----------------------------
Thanks for all your responses so far.  I think I need to tell you a little
more so everyone can understand the situation better.

John has not lived with my parents for at least 7 years now.  He was kicked
out at about age 19 - we thought then that "TOUGH LOVE" was the answer.  
My parents have refused to let him live with them many times.  They refuse
to be subjected to his behavior as far as that goes.  They did let him
back once after he came out of rehab on the condition that once he found
a job he would have to find his own place to live.  They ended up kicking
him out anyway because he started drinking again.  

I received a call from my sister this AM - she told me that she had spoken
with my mother this morning.  My mother told her that John called in the
wee hours of the morning and started screaming at her.  He is very angry
with my parents - why we don't know.  Part of it is probably that he
thinks my sister and I have gotten all the attention because of my upcoming
married and my sister marrying last year.  The fact is we have not received
any special treatment from our parents because of this.  Of course they
are paying a good portion of the wedding expenses but - they are not running
around falling all over us.  None of us kids were ever abused or mistreated
in any way.  He received everything my sister and I did and more.  This is
why I don't understand his anger towards my parents.  His girlfriend is 
great - but I think someone pointed out that helping him is enabling him - 
that is what she does - she calls in sick for him - gives him money and lets
him take advantage of her.  I told her today as long as she does these things
for John he will never make an attempt to change because he can get the
things he really needs from her.  

I have decided that I will not let John attend my wedding unless he gets some
help soon.  But - I feel very bad about his girlfriend and don't know what
to do about her.  If she's still with him then do I tell her she's welcome?
Do I send them both an invitation, just her, or not to either one of them?

Thanks for all your help so far!

    
    re: .10
    
    In my earlier reply to you, I made an attempt to show how the vicious
    circle begins.  Maybe I can help shed a little light on the _anger_
    side of the coin, too.  The anger could come from a number of different
    sources.  I'm not saying that what I suggest is the source, only a 
    possibility.  
    
    A person full of self-hate and guilt is apt to become angry at themself
    at some point.  For example, while my husband got high, nothing
    mattered except his having a good time.  When the high was gone,
    the self-hate, feelings of failure and lack of self-worth were back
    again.  Then he would become an angry person looking for an argument.
    Although the anger was directed at me, his anger was really with
    himself for not doing right by his family.
    
    You mentioned that your brother received just as much, if not more,
    as your sister and yourself.  I've seen it happen in many instances
    where a person ends up resenting the people who have done the most
    for them.  In this case, your brother resenting your parents.
    
    I was like your brother's girlfriend.  I bought him a couple of
    cars, brand new wardrobes, gave him food/shelter/money, etc.  It
    only made it worse.  The more I helped him, the more money/opportunity
    he had to support his addictions.  And, you know who he resents
    the most?  ME!  To this day my husband will tell you that he loves
    me but cannot go on feeling like he owes his life to me.  
 
    I don't know what to suggest to you relative to your wedding.  If
    it were me, I'd just invite who I wanted and not worry too much
    about it.  Afterall, it is _your_ day.
    
    Beckie
    

    
    You cannot help your brother; he can only help himself.  You can
    help yourself, however, and encourage the rest of your family to
    help themselves.
    
    I agree most wholeheartedly with the previous response: get to an
    ALANON meeting.  If you can convince her to go, take your brother's
    girlfriend (and the rest of your family, for that matter) with you.
    
    There are resources here at DEC that you can use, as well.  The
    AA conference (send mail to ATPS::GREENHALGE), the ALANON conference
    (MYRRH::JOVAN) and the ACOA conference (mail to me at MEIS::TILLSON)
    all have many members who have been through what you are going through.
    I don't know what site you work at, but some DEC facilities (Spitbrook
    and Tewksbury, for example) have weekly SERENITY (AA/ALANON/ACOA/CODA)
    meetings that may be of help to you.  Your EAP reprsentative will
    also have a list of resources available to you.
    
    Rita
    

    
    	I've had similar experiences with _enabling_ two people - with
    the same result - they end up hating you because you *let* them
    get away with a behavior they really hate about themselves. Both
    were ACOA/DFs. I had absolutely no idea of just what I was doing!
    By "giving them a break" in life... 
    
    	Getting to the core of self-hate is a painful process. The good
    news is, a new awareness is available which allows one to dismiss
    his *self* from being "defective". One's perception of "defectiveness"
    of self can stem from something like being diciplined for bedwetting 
    to an actual physical handicap. Or, as I mentioned earlier, it can
    come simply from a deep sense of being the "odd one out" in the family.
    As an only child, *I* often felt that way - my parents had each
    other - and then there was me. <SLAM!> 
    
    	And, as we all know, what is very real in the context of a
    perception to one person can appear to be complete non-sense to
    a different person. There was no "real reason" for me to feel like
    the "odd one out". But reasons to a child dont matter - I just felt 
    that way! That feeling was, (how you say?) "invalidated" as nonsense
    by my parents. INVALIDATED I SAY - instead of being worked through.
    Quickly invalidating, instead of working hard to understand someone's
    feelings, is the worst thing you can possibly do to someone. To
    this day, when someone tells me my feelings are just a bunch of
    sh*t, it severely warps my peace of mind.
    
    	Getting to know how someone really feels about something takes more 
    than a one shot effort, basing all on the literal answer. For example, 
    someone can be screaming "I love you" yet be pounding their fist on 
    the table at the same time. How do they really feel?
    
    	Only John, upon realizing "where" or by what mechanism his current
    perception of self originated, can then go in and convince his
    inner child that it's OK, I'll never leave you, you no longer have
    to feel this way, and this is not who we really are. To get him
    to that realization, someone's gonna hafta listen to him, let him
    know his feelings are valid and let him express them vividly.
    
    	Hope this makes sense.
    
    	Joe Jas           
           
    	

    "To get him to that realization, someone's gonna hafta listen to him, 
    let him know his feelings are valid and let him express them vividly."
    
    Though Joe didn't specifically mention it, I feel certain he would 
    concur that the "someone" in this case does *not* necessarily have
    to be you.  I think I'm on fairly safe ground in saying that it's
    even likely that you cannot/will not/should not be that person -
    the more-or-less standard profile of this kind of situation is that
    family members jump through endless hoops trying to "get through"
    to the individual, usually to little or no avail.  As others have
    indicated John has to *want* to hear the message - the phone only
    works when someone on the other end picks up. . .
    
    If he's been in therapy/rehab that often, I feel certain that he's
    been given a number of opportunities to experss his anger in a
    safe environment.  Perhaps he has done so, perhaps not, but, by
    your description, it sounds as if he hasn't gotten past it; it's
    one thing to express the anger, another to begin to understand it
    and get past it to a newer perspective.
    
    In any case, I second (third? fourth? whatever) the motion for making
    sure your support network is what you need it to be; many find
    organizations like Al-Anon beneficial, others prefer individual
    therapy, and still others take different routes.  It matters not.
    What *does* matter is that you feel you have resources you can turn
    to when things get crazy (f'rinstance, weddings are great opportunities
    for craziness. . .)  I'd say the best thing you can do is to seek
    out those who can help you stay in touch with yourself, can help
    you understand the process, and can help you stay as prepared as
    possible for whatever may lie ahead (good or bad).
    
    Wishing you strength and peace,
    
    Steve