Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    You won't be this child's mother.  As you stated the child already
    has a mother.  You might extend your friendship to this child as
    it sounds like this little girl has already been through alot.
    If you love this guy, support him.  Be intelligent about it.
    This notesfile and others such as Mennotes, offer advice to parents
    about divorce.  
    Have your SO get a good lawyer, have him document all incidents
    between him and his ex.  Don't let their conflicts interfere
    with the relationship that you two have.
    
    I wish you the best of luck.
    

    
    re. -1
    
    I don't want the responsibility of helping raise this child.
    He has a good lawyer and is doing what he is supposed to.
    I guess the real problem is I have conflicting emotions on this.
    I want to support him any way I can , and I have been doing that
    through this whole mess.  
    
    Yes, the little girl has been through alot.  And I feel she is entitled
    to live in a loving family where two parents can take care of her.
    I would also love to see him get what he wants.  I just don't feel
    that he can raise this child on his own.  He barely scrapes by 
    financially and If he has to work two jobs who will take care of
    the child?  I also don't think that he realizes how much work it
    takes to raise a child.  Mind you I do not feel he wouldn't be able
    to overcome that.  But at what expense to our relationship?
    
    As it is this battle has taken its toll on our relationship.  We
    have been trying really hard to work with each other instead of
    against each other.  I just feel that this is also an issue that
    should be worked on together and it isn't.  We aren't married so
    it isn't as though this would affect me in that sense.  But it is
    affecting me in a very real way.  I don't think what either of them
    is doing is right.  I don't see this breaking us apart, but it is
    taking its toll.  How can I support him if in my heart I feel what
    he is doing is going to hurt the child more than help?

    It sounds like your SO is in for some big surprises if he does get
    custody.  The fact that he has not discussed what impact his child
    will have on your life alone, would concern me.
    
    But until you know exactly what your up against, try not to let
    the possibilities overwhelm you.  It may just work itself out as
    you have indicated.
    
    Jane

    If I were in your shoes, I'd want to sit down and talk with him about
    how I was feeling, and find out how he is feeling. 
    
    Jenny

    
    I agree with Jenny that it sounds like a good idea for you to sit
    down and talk about your feelings with your partner.  I think this
    is important even if he doesn't get custody.  It sounds like you
    might need some clarity around what kind of relationship he wants
    you to have with his daughter and what feels comfortable to you.
    
    With regard to the custody issue- It's my understanding that in Mass. 
    the courts generally use a "primary care presumption" when deciding
    the matter of physical custody.  That is, unless the primary caretaker 
    is deemed by the court to be unfit, she or he generally gets sole
    physical custody, and the non-custodial parent (unless deemed unfit) 
    shares in the legal custody.  I hope you will be able to talk with
    your partner about your feelings, though, regardless of the outcome of the
    court case.
    
    Good luck,   
    
    Justine

    First, my standard advice for SOs of single parents . . .
    
    Even if he does get custody and the child lives in your house,
    that does NOT mean that you have to act as if you're the child's
    mother.  She has a mother and she's old enough to know that you're
    not it.  Don't think you have to play a role of what you think a
    good mother/stepmother should be, or try to force confidence, or
    add discipline, or make her breakfast, or any of the other things
    you think of when you say "I don't want to raise a kid".  Just be
    yourself with her -- kids appreciate frankness and honesty more
    than most people think. 
    
Now, on to the rest:
    
    I may be reading too much into your notes here; if I am, please
    forgive me and ignore me.  But it sounds a little like the reason
    you're having trouble being supportive because you feel like
    you're not being honest with him, like you're hiding your true
    feelings. 
    
    Maybe you need to sit down with yourself before you talk to him
    and think through your own feelings.  Why do you think he's wrong
    to want custody?  Is the girl's mother not providing a good
    environment, or does he just want to hurt her?  Are you afraid he
    won't be a good father?  Are you worried that he's going to get
    custody and then turn her over to you?  What do you think will
    happen if he does get custody?  He'll move away and leave you
    stuck with the kid?  You'll have to take an extra job to support
    them both?  He'll spend all his time with his daughter and none
    with you?  A toddler will interfere with your love-making?  
    
    No, don't tell me the answers!!!!  You might not even want to tell
    him.  But all these feelings and more are normal worries about
    having a child in the house, and if you know the answers in your
    heart you'll be better prepared to support him honestly.
    
    --bonnie

    I was and am in a very similar situation.  The man I was dating
    (and am now married to) has a daughter with a 'high school sweetheart'.
    When we first started dating, she was only 5 years old and the
    relationship between mother, father and daughter was good.  He loves
    his daughter very much and right from the beginning, provided all
    the emotional and financial support he could.  I must admit, at
    a point in our relationship when it almost ended, I did the old
    trick of listing the advantages and disadvantages on a piece of
    paper, and his daughter was a "disadvantage".
    
    But, needless to say, we are married now and I instantly became
    a stepmother.  I truthfully never gave it much thought - before,
    during or now.  Its the only way I can handle all the stressful
    situations that arise with the real mother.  All I know is that
    I love the father of this child very much - he's what my life is
    all about - not the obligations he has in his life.  I've got to
    believe that one of the biggest reasons I love him is for the trait
    he displays so prominently when it comes to his daughter - love
    and commitment.
    
    I guess my advice is this - focus on this man of yours . . .  Why
    do you love him as you do?  Is it for some of the reasons that I
    love my husband who is in a similar situation?  Its this man that
    you will live your life with (if it comes to that), not the child,
    who will grow up and go off on his/her own.  Things really do work
    out in ways that are good for everyone.  And just tackling a problem
    like this together will bring you even closer - don't let it get
    between you; use it as a means to get to know and love each other
    even better!
    
    Remember, it WILL work out for the best,
    Martha

    
    Bonnie,
    
    It isn't that I don't think he should seek custody,  I don't think
    it is right to take this child away from her mother.  As far as
    I can see,  she is taking good care of her.  I just think that this
    child has been through so much bull.  She deserves some stability
    in her life and this constant battling is only hurting her more.

    First thing to do is tell him how you feel. It sounds like you want
    him to pick between you and his daughter. He might pick you and
    then again he may not. It is not fair to let him think he can have
    both if he can't. He may not be able to have his daughter, but as
    a father I can understand that he may want to believe that he can.
    In his position I'd fight for custody to. Regardless of the odds.
    
    If he wins custody will you leave? Rhetorical question. If not then
    be 100% behind him. If so, let him know now so he can work on the
    pain that is inevitable what ever happens.
    
    Regarding the child. She will probably get over the battling long
    before your SO will.
    
    			Alfred

    
    I could never ask him to choose between his daughter and me.
    I can honestly say that I don't know what would happen if he did
    get custody.  I am afraid to tell him how I feel because it is not
    what he wants to hear.  I think I would have a hard time if the
    I was in his shoes.  I also have a problem with his believing he
    will get custody.  I understand that he needs to believe that he
    will get custody, but since they never married the child's mother
    legally has 100% custody of his daughter.  So she basically tells
    him whether or not he can get custody.  Knowing this woman's background
    I know she will never agree to him having full custody.
    
    How do I support his effort without looking at the real side of
    this?  I am looking at this from the realistic point of view, not
    from an emotional point of view.  I don't want him to fall apart
    if he looses any custody which is a real possibility.  They are
    both proving to the courts that they can not work this out as
    stipulated in the agreement.  All  the mother has to do is say no
    and he may end up losing his daughter completely.  How do I help
    him with this?  What am I supposed to say?  Should I get behind
    him or should I try to remain objective?  I know the pain he is
    feeling is tremendous, but I sometimes find myself wanting to slap
    him into reality (in a figureative sense).  

        RE: .0
        
>    	I need some input from you folks.  I have been involved with
>    a guy for 3 1/2 years, and ***have gone through alot*** with him.  I
>    won't go into it because it would take too long.
        
    I may be reading a lot more into your base note than is there, but
    I am getting some clues that the relationship is not 100% satisfying.
    
>    Now given the current situation,  I honestly do not believe that
>    he will get full custody.  At this point, I don't think he is going
>    to get any custody since the mother has to agree to it.  He is
>    allowed to have his daughter only 20 hours a week .  That is when
>    works.  So in effect she is using him a a babysitter.
    
    It sounds like the possibility of his getting custody of his daughter
    is so intolerable to you that you deny its possibility.  You appear
    to believe (probably rightly so) that you will be forced into a
    role that you have no desire for.
    
>    The problem I have is ***going*** to occur
>    if he gets full custody.  I ***don't want*** to be this kids mother.
>    I just ***don't think I could accept*** that situation.  I love his
>    daughter, ***but*** she already has a mother.  I also believe that ***it
>    is wrong*** to remove her from her mother who is the custodial parent.
>    I haven't told him of my feelings yet because I honestly believe
>    he will not get full custody.  I love him very much, and honestly
>    can't see leaving this relationship.  Any suggestions??
    
    You appear to view the situation, if he should get custody, as Hopeless
    (with a Capital "H").  On the one hand, you have decided that this
    situation WILL BE the end of your relationship, but on the other
    hand know that you will suffer terribly if you are to break up.
    Yet you are not not willing to sit down with him to discuss it with
    him (probably because you feel that if he knows how you feel, he
    will choose his daughter over you, and will end the relationship
    regardless of the custody outcome.
    
    You certainly have my (and I'm sure, ALL the noters') sympathy,
    because it appears to be a lose/lose situation.  Is it possible
    to sit down with your SO, tell him about you fears and doubts, but
    assure him that because you love him as much as you do, that you
    will be willing to try to work things out?  If not, all you can
    do is pray that he never gets custody.  But you will be under a
    great deal of stress throughout the duration of the custody battle.
    (And from the comments in some other notes, that could be a long
    time.)  I hope you take steps to allow yourself to deal with that
    stress.
    
    Peace,
    
    Jack

    
    Jack,
    
    	This relationship is very satisfying.  I would not be in it
    today if it weren't.  I have gone through alot with him .  I have
    to stress WITH him.  We became pregnant in January of 87.  It was
    due to me taking tetracycline while being on the pill.  Unfortunately,
    my doctor did not tell me that the terta reduces the effect of the
    pill.  We went through hell making a decision on this one.  I was
    in my last year of college  and I knew I could not give my child
    a life it deserved, also the effect of the pill on the fetus was
    in question.  So we made the decision to abort.  That is what I
    meant by "alot".
    
    	As far as him getting custody as I stated earlier I do not know
    what will happen.  But after taking to many divorced fathers and
    reading the horror stories in mennotes,  It is really hard for me
    to believe that he even has a chance in gaining custody.
     I  haven't been able to talk to him about this because I am not
    sure of my feelings.  The only thing I am sure of is that I love
    him.

    re:.10
    
    "I am afraid to tell him how I feel because it is not what he wants
    to hear."
    
    You must tell him anyways. It may seem harsh and painful in the
    short run, but in the long run, you'll be better off. I was once
    in a relationship in which each of us was telling the other what
    we thought the other wanted to hear instead of what we really felt.
    Because of this, that turned into the most disastrous relationship
    of my life.
    
    You have to be honest with him about your feelings. Otherwise, what
    kind of foundation does your relationship stand on.
    
    I know this sounds harsh, and may seem unsympathetic to your
    situation. Believe me, I'm not unsympathetic. But not telling your
    SO what you really feel about the situation is just allowing him
    to live a sort of fantasy existance that denies reality. In in
    the long run, this will be more harmful than helpful.
    
    --- jerry

    RE: .12
    
    Maybe the situation you described (i.e. the abortion) may be
    influencing your feelings towards your SO's child.  I could certainly
    see how it could!
    
    But because you love him very much, I *KNOW* you'll be able to work
    things out, if he should get custody (which does look like a slim
    chance to my non-legal [not Illegal ;^} ] mind.)  So again, show
    him you love and support him, and that you will work with him for
    whatever you (jointly) fell is best.
    
    Jacl

    
    I think it's very important here to MAKE SURE he's not trying to
    get custody BECAUSE the mother is spreading lies.  If a judge feels
    that this is a "revenge" action, he definately won't grant custody
    to your S.O.  But, I feel that you should think about how you'll feel
    if he DOES get custody.  You're assuming now that he won't, but
    there's always the chance since he IS the child's natural father.
    Then let him know how you feel and talk things out.
    
    You've really got a lot of factors influencing you...look at what's
    ahead of you in either case.
    
    
    jean
    

    I am not sure I'll manage to say this without saying something hurtful,
    but I will try to: your base-note says that you would find raising
    this child as your own intelorable. I think I understand how hurt
    you must have been not to be able to keep your own child, and now
    being faced with the - faint - possibility of raising his seems
    like a slap in the face.
    
    As other noters have said, you should certainly talk it out with
    your friend, but what you really need to look into is YOUR own
    feelings. Don't forget that, though he may not get custody now,
    the child's mother could be involved in an accident, or decide to
    go back to school, or ... any other factor that could reverse the
    custody, or even just imply your having the child with you two for
    much more than 20 hours per week. Is that thought really intolerable?
    Do you think your feelings can mellow with time?
    
    I met my husband when he was just separated from his wife, and Melinda
    was less than a year old. Throughout many years of behind the scenes
    skirmishes, we have raised her "partially", i.e. we have gone from
    every second week-end and half the school vacation (legal right)
    to as much as 6 months per year guardianship. Francois'ex-wife still
    meddles a lot in our life, which we tolerate because of Melinda,
    who is now 14 years old. My feelings have evolved over the years.
    I was 19 when I met Francois, and was not keen on children AT ALL,
    any sort of children: mine, theirs, and any others! I first accepted
    the daughter because of the father: she was part of him as much
    as an arm or a leg, and probably more significant than either. Then,
    I started liking her for herself, for her own qualities. When we
    had our own child (a girl, now 8 years old), being a mother in my
    own right helped me love Melinda even more, though I never tried
    to replace her mother in any way. Now, 13 years later, I am thankful 
    to have had this wonderful opportunity. 
                        
    I thought I could have my man without his past, but that is just
    not possible. Neither is it possible to believe that the past has
    no impact on the future. Our life has been complicated in an infinity
    of ways because I married a man with a past. Sometimes I have felt
    that I would like to chuck everybody through the window, throwing
    the baby with the bath-water (and the bathtub, while we are at it!)
    Even now, I sometimes dream I could have met a nice, uncomplicated,
    free, rich man (have I forgotten anything important?), and life
    would have been so much easier ... maybe.
    
    I have rambled a lot, and don't really know how to close that note,
    but what I really wanted to say is that, though it may be difficult
    and sometimes unrewarding to raise somebody else's child, it can
    also be a beautiful, strong thing.
                                                 
    I really understand the turmoil you are in, and hope that you will
    be able to talk to your friend about your feelings: without his
    understanding and his help, your relationship may not be able
    to survive...
    
    Joana
         
    
    PS: On a more general note...
    
    	Many men, through living with their mothers, are now raising children
    	not their own. With the evolution of our society, more and more
    	men will get legal guardianship of their children, and the women
    	they live with, like the men before them, will have to chose to
    	take either man and child(ren) or none at all. It's not an easy
    	choice.
                    
    

    re: 100.0
    
    Although this is a bit off the topic...
    
    Can we find some other term than "illegitimate" to refer to children
    born out of wedlock?  What child is not legitimate?  
    
    This formerly illegitimate person would greatly appreciate a more
    sensitive term.
    

    How about "person"?
    
    The realtionship between a person's parents may have been contrary
    to accepted social norms (or even against the law in some
    jurisdictions), but that doesn't (shouldn't) reflect upon their
    children.

    This is a perfect example of a term that has pretty much
    outlived its usefulness. It was original used to judge
    inheritance rights amongst the nobility, and within the
    context of that type of social order, it was reasonable
    (nota bene: I said "in the context of that type of social
    order").
    
    Even today, it's a factor in inheritance conflicts, due to
    the reverence our society places upon marriage. In this
    case, the word "illegitimate" perpetutates an attitude (that
    I, for one, consider wrong) that family rights are more
    important than individual rights.
    
    --- jerry

    reply to .18
    
    here, here!
    
    As my mother used to say, "A child is never illegitimate. But sometimes
    you need to take a good look at the parents..."
    
    [This comment of hers was _not_ reserved for parents of the un-wed
    variety...if she could have found a way she would have been
    out there lobbying for competency testing before parenting]
    
    Now back to our regularly scheduled discussion...
    
      Ann

re:
    < Note 100.20 by AKOV11::BOYAJIAN "Copyright � 1953" >


�    Even today, it's a factor in inheritance conflicts, due to
�    the reverence our society places upon marriage. In this
�    case, the word "illegitimate" perpetutates an attitude (that
�    I, for one, consider wrong) that family rights are more
�    important than individual rights.

    I would suggest that is's more a result of our society's reverence
    for _property_   The so-called "sanctity of marriage" is just a
    convenient excuse for keeping property in the family.
    
    	bruce

    Well, when it comes right down to it, the term exists only because
    of the *male* ...uhm...doubt?...paranoia?...as to who he could
    leave his property to. [Ugh. Sorry, Winston. :-)]
    
    After all, a woman always knows who her kids are, and none of *hers*
    are "illegitimate". 
    
    --DE
    

    FWIW, I think that today the notion of illegitimacy is illegitimate.
    
    Steve (who would brazenly steal from the Monty etc. sketch about
    the guy who's convinced that the majority of all wrong-thinking
    people are right. . .)
    

    re: .23 
    
    Yes, and there have been, probably still are, cultures that take
    the issue of being sure you're related into your heirs into
    account.  For instance, the traditional Celtic/Norse inheritance
    pattern was that a man would leave his property to his sister's
    children, the theory being that since he and his sister came from
    the same womb, and his sister's kids came from his sister's womb,
    he knew his sister's kids were related to him. 
    
    The children he raised as his own, those borne by his wife, would
    receive their inheritance through his wife's brother. 

    I believe a number of central Asian tribes follow similar
    inheritance rules. 

    --bonnie 

    Re: .23
    
    Yup.  That's why a Jew is traditionally defined to be someone born of
    a Jewish mother.  Ancient Egypt used to have inheritance through
    the female line, which is why the pharoah married his sister.