Conference turris::womannotes-v2

>        The more I think on it, the more it made me wonder why I don't place
>    any value on men? [...]
>        
>    Just wondering if this is just a phase I am going through or an
>    actual growth.  

    I'm assuming that the second sentence here goes with the first.
    As I man I would never consider not placing any value on men as
    growth. Neither would I ever consider not placing any value on women
    as growth. What do you really mean here?
    
    As to the rest of the note, I don't understand why the woman
    doesn't pack the man's bags and toss him out either. There are
    plenty of men who know how to treat people right. 
    
    			Alfred

    Maybe you  two  are  stronger  than  I  am,  but  I can distinctly
    remember  crying  over  the end of a relationship that I know (and
    knew  then) was bad for me. Even though I was the one to end it, I
    felt  pretty miserable about it for a while. Now it's obvious that
    it  was worth it, but I can certainly empathize with someone whose
    lover leaves them (even if he is a no-goodnick).

    There have  been  some  very painful cries in this notes file from
    women  who  couldn't  bring themselves to leave bad relationships.
    This  seems  to  be  part  of the human condition, and I certainly
    don't  want  to  blame  or  belittle  people  who  are having that
    problem.

--David

    
    I think what I heard in the questions raised in .0 is that Vivian
    has put a great deal of energy in to building a life for her daughter 
    and her and that she can't even envision allowing a man to undermine
    that.  (am i reading too much in here?)
    
    If it's not too personal a question to ask, Vivian, I'd like to
    know how you manage relationships with men when you are in relationships.
    Do you find yourself setting lots of limits?  Do you avoid men
    whom you feel might jeopardize what you have, or do you find yourself
    avoiding all romantic relationships?   With regard to your question
    about whether your attitude represents "growth," I think it's important
    for women to realize that women do not deserve to be mistreated
    by men.  I think we have to be careful, though, not to turn our
    understanding of women's rights into anger at the woman for not
    seeing what seems so obvious to you.  That's always a tough one
    for me; I see women taking abuse, and I want to shake them 'till
    they see, but.. that would be pretty abusive, too.  All we can do,
    I think, is be there when they ask for help and do our best to present
    a strong model for our daughters (and our sisters.)  It sounds like
    you're doing just that, Vivian.
                                                                            
    Justine

    re:0
    
    I have a question, you may know more then you are putting in
    the base note, but how do you know that maybe the man wasn't
    the injured party who had had enough? How can you assume that
    it was the mans fault.              
    
    I also have a question about your remark about not letting a 
    man get between you and your daughter. If you instill this
    in your daughters feelings, how will she react if at some
    future date you do find a "Mr Right". Will your daughter
    feel threatened ?                                    
    
    dave

    One last question will your attitude towards men be picked up
    by your daughter to the point where she will not have any interest
    in a relationship with a man ?

                               
    dave

    And if and when she finds Mr. Right, will she feel she is betraying
    you?
    

    re.-last few
    
    I guess I will have to make some qualifications.
    I don't hate men, I don't think to much of them at this
    point in my life and they are very easy to live without 
    though I am not Lesbian or Bi, but I don't hate them.  
    I am in a Hermit stage at the present time so don't date right now
    and have explained to my daughter that I am in a stage of growth
    and don't want to expend any energy thats unneccesary. 
    My daughter is 9 years old.  By saying not allowing a man to get between
    my daughter and myself, I was saying that I value my daughters rights
    too, I will not, ever, let a man tell me or my daughter how to
    act, what is expected, what can be accomplished, what has
    to be put up with, what can be learned, etc etc.
    is that clearer?  I had a father, before he grew up, who had very
    definate ideas on a womans place.  I grew out of it.
    How on earth would she ever feel that she would be betraying me
    by having a relationship?????  How could she feel threatened by
    me having found "mr right" in the future?  she will always have
    the strength to know that she has choices, she has rights just as
    I have and whatever she decides regarding relationships, she doesn't
    deserve to be treated "that" way. (one example)  Personally, I feel
    that she is growing up a very strong woman and beware the man of
    old thinking that trys to hold her back :-)
    (watch out grandpa!)

    You would have to have been there to witness the utter distress
    of the woman, the man's attitude before he saw me out in the yard.
    I would have still moved him out.  but then, I don't precipitate
    situations like this and if he did, he'd be moved out ! 
    

    vivian

I can think of nothing healthier than teaching your child to rely on herself
(that's what we've been talking about in other notes). And I can think of
nothing healthier than that you rely on yourself. There's no need to place
heavy value on sex, or on a single committed relationship with a person
you will have sex with, which is what I'm hearing when you say:
>    The more I think on it, the more it made me wonder why I don't place
>    any value on men? 

There are so many things in life. Your love for your daughter is certainly
one of them!

Sounds like you're doing great Vivian.
	Mez

    'Scuse me, but the woman was simply asking a question and musing
    at her terminal.  I see no call for the hostile, attacking 
    replies (.5-.7, follow the form feed.  The girl's orientation is 
    pretty much set by age 9 and is not likely to be swayed one way or 
    the other by her mom's actions NOW.  Furthermore "blaming" the 
    parent's actions for a child's orientation is pretty lousy if you 
    ask me.
    
    Who says Mr (or Ms) Right even exists, anyway?
    
    To asnwer your question, Vivian, yes my lovers leavings tear me
    to shreds, though perhaps not quite as much as the woman you described.
    I do not have a child, though, and I think that makes it a lot safer
    for me to break down emotionally than it would be for you.  The
    woman you described may have been extremely dependant on the guy
    (emotionally, financially) and probably felt her life was near an
    end when/if he left.
    
********************************************************************************
CADSE::HARDING                                       14 lines   4-AUG-1988 10:03
                       -< Was it really the mans fault >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    re:0
    
    I have a question, you may know more then you are putting in
    the base note, but how do you know that maybe the man wasn't
    the injured party who had had enough? How can you assume that
    it was the mans fault.              
    
    I also have a question about your remark about not letting a 
    man get between you and your daughter. If you instill this
    in your daughters feelings, how will she react if at some
    future date you do find a "Mr Right". Will your daughter
    feel threatened ?                                    
    
    dave
    
CADSE::HARDING                                        6 lines   4-AUG-1988 10:08
                        -< OOps forgot one more thing >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    One last question will your attitude towards men be picked up
    by your daughter to the point where she will not have any interest
    in a relationship with a man ?

                               
    dave

EDUHCI::WARREN                                        3 lines   4-AUG-1988 10:09
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    And if and when she finds Mr. Right, will she feel she is betraying
    you?
********************************************************************************

    Re .7:
    
  

    Re .7:
    
    Vivian, 
    
    If it sounded like I was attacking you, I apologize.  I did not
    intend to.  And I certainly did not intend to suggest that you might
    be shaping your daughter's sexual orientation one way or the other.
    
    I guess your note just struck me as sounding like "There is _no_
    place in our lives, or in our relationship (your and your daughter's)
    for any man."  I know those aren't the words you used, but that's
    the impression your note left me with.  It made me uncomfortable
    and that's what I was reacting to.
        

    -Tracy
    

    I have been in situations similar to the way .0 is described.  What
    bothers me is the coldness of the man being able to just drive or
    walk away despite the fact that the woman might even be on the verge
    of suicide.  Even if the man feels that the situation was brought
    on by the woman, I think he should be concerned that a woman he
    at least once supposedly cared for is in such a desperate emotional
    condition.  I thought we were supposed to have compassion for each
    other, especially with someone who is terribly upset.  
    
    I have had a lot of terrible fights with men in my life, and I can
    remember so many times when I was so upset I was contemplating suicide
    (and would most likely be dead now if I wasn't such a chicken) and
    feeling like I was going to explode, while the man who made me feel
    that way calmly snored in bed, having fallen asleep totally unconcerned
    that my heart might be breaking.  Anyway, these memories make me
    sympathize with the woman in .0.
    
    Lorna
    

    I can't help but ask this - if the person who left the house had
    been, say, the teenage daughter of the women, how would one's reaction
    to the situation differ?  What about a female SO?  
    
    I guess I see this more as a conflict between two people and less
    in the light of traditional male/female roles.  Anyone agree?

       	Once, when I was a kid, my family and I witnessed a scene very
    	much like the one described in the basenote.  It happened across
    	the street from where we lived (to a couple in their 30's --
    	funny how old they seemed to me at the time ;-).... )  They
    	had no children.
    
    	On the surface, they seemed very romantic most of the time,
    	although we were aware that the husband had a very bad temper
    	and often flew off the handle.  We were never aware of any
    	actual violence in their house, but we could often hear the
    	husband carrying on (either at her or at anyone else who happened
    	to annoy him close to home, like other neighbors, for example.)
    
    	One day, we saw a scene similar to the one in .0 (where the
    	husband was taking off in a rage, leaving his wife crying behind
    	him and asking him not to leave.)  The next day, we heard that
    	she had died in a car accident (before he had returned home
    	again.)  So the view of her crying after him in the rear view
    	mirror was the last he ever saw of her.
    
    	The man was inconsolable for several weeks, at which point he
    	committed suicide by hitting another car head-on intentionally
    	(killing two people in the other car as well.)
    
    	Watching this story unfold before our eyes was an experience
    	that I'll never forget.  It really taught me something about
    	being in situations where people lose control (and how to avoid
    	relationships like that.)  Although I did get caught in one
    	once (with a man who has gone on to repeat that scenerio several
    	times since we divorced.)  As for me, once was more than enough
    	and I consider myself lucky to have gotten out as well as I
    	did.  Never again, tho!

    Re. .14 How can men just walk away?
    
    I think that one of the reasons that men choose to leave is because,
    I believe, that men are not well equipped or trained to deal with
    strong emotion, either there own or someone else's.  He may be just
    choosing to escape from a situation that he cannot resolve any other
    way.
    
    						MJC O->

    in re .16 I don't think that there is any question that there
    are 'countless such women' out there...and what I think the regulars
    in the file would want to deal with is not that such women exist
    but *why* they act as they do...and the responsibility for those
    actions is in no way entirely their own. If you tsecad::healy are
    running into a lot of such kinds of situations, then it would
    not be wasted time to figure out why.
    
    Earlier another noter mentioned that many men are not able to deal
    with strong emotions and they do indeed flee....so very often all
    a woman really wanted before she got to the point of being out of
    control...and many of us have gotten to that point in the past...
    was for the man in her life to sit down and talk about what was
    upsetting them both. When I was much younger I had several
    relationships with men where they droped me cold and would not
    listen to any mail or other efforts to mend the relationship. I
    do know that far more women than men will look at a damaged
    relationship and try to work the issues out, and far more men
    than women will regard this as nagging, or chasing, or immature,
    or other nasty and uncomfortable names...and I really don't
    understand why this is...to me the logical thing to do to a failing
    relationship is to sit down and talk it out and try and fix it...
    
    but in my experience *many* men find this to be offensive..or
    intrusive...or other wise unacceptable..  One reason that I married
    Don and the *major* reason we have stayed married is that he is just
    as committed to talking things out as I am....and I think we have
    both gained immesurably from that willingness..had we either been
    unwilling I doubt seriously if we would have just celebrated our
    21st anniversary. and I will say quite honestly that we have worked
    through some pretty major problems in those years and we are
    continuting to work them through....but so far we have found the
    benefits to out weigh by far the deficts.
    
    This is not appeasing the woman regardless...it is simple human
    decency....for heavens sake...I simply cannot understand why there
    is a problem with two human beings simply talking out issues...
    (again in re .16)
    
    and yes I know that women in a break up tend to cling and revisit
    issues...but to my mind it is a two way street....any man  that
    walks away from a relationship with out trying to work out the problems
    between the two is as at fault as a woman who keeps on bringing
    up old business that the two have between them.

    Bonnie
    

"I had a father, before he grew up, who had very definate ideas on a womans
place.  I grew out of it."

It sounds to me like you still have a bit of growing to do; your life still
seems to be governed by your past...

Not an attack, just a thought...  so much of time seems to be spent reacting
to something in the past, in the present... *sigh*

The feeling I have of the situation is of a male/female conflict, but it is
interesting to look at what the situation might look like if it were the
daughter or someone else instead of the man... 

"I believe, that men are not well equipped or trained to deal with strong
emotion, either there own or someone else's."

ESPECIALLY when dealing with women, because men are not supposed to fight with
women, or any other event that might happen if it were another man.

"When I was much younger I had several relationships with men where they droped
me cold and would not listen to any mail or other efforts to mend the
relationship."

My experience is that a man will be more likely to *solve* a problem or issue,
and a woman is more likely to want to just smooth it over...  Putting those
two behaviors together makes it very difficult to accomplish much...

Then again, men seem less likely to want to repeat themselves.. (nag) then
women, and once they have said their piece, they shut up, and it's hard to
get them started again... :-)

It takes two people to have an intelligent conversation; it only takes one
person to ruin one, and it may be the one leaving, or the one staying, or
both... 

JMB

    I like the comments made in a couple of previous notes that this
    seems to be a problem more to do with people than male/female roles.
    I have been in *both* sides of this situation, so I don't seen either
    role particularly associated with one sex...
    
    I sympathize with both people in this situation.  I've have been
    left crying (on my knees, although God knows I hate myself for it
    now) with someone who refused to talk anymore.  And I have been
    in a relationship that was damaging to me, that no matter how much
    we talked, it wasn't helpping...it was just going around and around.
    And I felt the best thing to do for *both* of us was to get out
    of the situation fast.
    
    Remember (to the person who mentioned that she might have been
    suicidal) he probably knows her quite well...  On the rare occasion
    I have left men in a similar situation, I know they can handle it,
    I know that in that situation that the begging/crying is temporary,
    and that we are probably both better off witha quick clean break.
    
    Diana
      !

    Re .0, Vivian, in a way, I think you are very lucky that you "don't
    place any value on men", and there are times that I wish I felt
    just like you do!  :-)  But, I'm not sure I really want to give
    up on wanting to have a romantic, love relationship in my life.
     I do enjoy spending time with men that I find attractive, and I
    would hate to think that I could never again have a happy, long-term
    relationship with a man.  I think I still feel that I would be missing
    something if I lived my entire life without a relationship with men.
    Certainly, I'm far less willing to put up with what I consider to
    be sh*t than I once was.  Sometimes I do wonder if it's all worth
    the trouble though.
    
    As far as the person who wondered if we would look at the situation
    in .0 differently if instead of a man walking away it was a teenage
    daughter, for example, all I can say is that my teenage daughter
    and I would never treat each other that way.  We love each other
    too much.  I don't know what that says about the comparison between
    relationships with men and with my daughter in my life, but for
    one thing she and I get along a lot better than I ever have with
    a man.  The other thing is, remember we have different expectations
    from people we are *in love with* (SO's, spouses) than we do from
    platonic friends or family members.  Some women have been raised
    to feel that the most important goal in life is to find a man who
    loves them and will stand by them no matter what.  When they don't
    find this they'll be devastated and may act kind of crazy for awhile.
     
    As far as myself, I sometimes think that I tend to attract men that
    want a woman they can control and boss around - maybe I'm attracted
    to them because they seem to be assertive - then once they get to
    know me they know I'm not so easily bossed around, that I have a
    mind of my own, and my own idea of how things should be done and
    how I want to live my life.  I don't want to just merge into their
    life and be enveloped and lose my identity like a Stepford wife.
     Marge Piercy has a line in a poem that goes something like, "every
    man who ever loved me was like an invading army."  I know how she
    feels.
    
    Lorna
    

    	Couldn't it be best that the man actually leave the argument
    and possibly keep from hurting both the woman and children physically?
    If he can drive away and vent his anger, frustration, whatever by
    just leaving, I would rather see that than read about it in the
    paper the next day.
    	This past March or April, a man in Leominster MA. killed his
    wife and two daughters (3 and 5, I think) during an argument. He
    then killed himself with a circular saw. The wife had previously
    had him arrested for threatening her and also had him removed from
    the premises. She knew of the violent nature. I don't feel sorry
    for the woman, but my heart broke for the little girls. If this
    man could have driven away from the fight, maybe they would all
    be alive...
    	So far we have found the man guilty of leaving the woman crying
    in the garage. We really don't know who did what except there was
    a lot of screaming and yelling and him departing. I think it unfair
    to assume that he is a skunk for driving off. 
    	Maybe they like like their life this way, who are we to judge??
    
    
    Ken

    Ken,
    
    We are people to judge that this is something that we do not
    wish for *ourselves*.  We are humans to wonder, however idly,
    how this came to happen for someone else, and what its True
    Meaning is, and what it would feel like to be in that situation,
    and...
    
    						Ann B.

    Vivian, what makes you think you don't place  any value on men?
    Because you won't allow them to run roughshod over your life?
    Well move over then, because I guess I don't either and I'm sure
    we have lots of company!
    
    Actually it sounds like you may have some vestiges of belief from
    dear old dad that says men are supposed to call the shots and be
    the boss and lay down the law and set the agenda and make the
    decisions,ad nauseum, and perhaps you think anything less than that
    is "placing no value on men".  Well I think there's a wide margin
    between a man-hater and a doormat.  Much wider than our society
    seems to think.
    
    If you simply haven't met a man who's willing to be just one-half
    of the relationship but are open to the possibility, I hardly see how 
    that can be called "placing no value on men".  In that definition, men 
    don't place any value on women since they usually don't allow them to
    rule the roost!  So in that case, you're equal!
    
    And I'm not sure what the neighbor scenario has to do with it. 
    You can't presume to know what's going on there.  One man replied
    here that you wouldn't get many women in this file to admit there
    are women around who, (I'm paraphrasing), provoke men, but
    I'll sure admit it.  I have a friend who also ran down the street
    after her guy and even jumped on his back!  That'll be the day I'd
    let a guy reduce me to such assinine behavior.  Definitely, pack
    'em up and move 'em out!  Self respect above ALL.  Even above men.
    Even above this glorified, divine, hallowed concept called "love".
    
    I don't see any need for histrionics in any situation except perhaps
    learning of someone's death.   In a love relationship, I would
    definintly interpret such melodrama to be weakness, dependence,
    immaturity, fear, lack of depth, lack of conviction, lack of a sense
    of self.  I wouldn't be interested in such a person.  I'd leave
    too!
    
    Therefore I interpret the neighbor scenario to be not a question
    of, "how can he leave like that", (because I KNOW how), but rather,
    "Why does he go back?"  But I think I know the answer the that one too.
    He's getting something out of it, obviously.  He's taking from her
    what he wants when he wants and leaves when he's had enough or she's
    not "being nice".  Nice work if you can get it.  She's allowing 
    herself to be used for whatever her pathetic reasons are.  And as 
    despicable as men like this appear to be, I never blame them.  They 
    aren't doing anything different than what your management gets
    rewarded for doing - getting all they can out of people and giving as 
    little as possible in return.  Here again, though, I sense that
    some people are thinking that because the man and woman have had
    sex, that changes everything.  It's ok in business, but not in love.
    Well, apparently there are men who don't differentiate.  Therefore
    should we as women base our actions and expectaions on what men
    SHOULD be or on what they well MAY be?  I'll skip the fantasy and go
    for the reality and save myself from the pain of surprise.  The
    woman in the garage was wrestling with her intense desire to maintain
    her illusions.  If and when reality ever sets in, she'll either
    change her locks or accept that her partner is all take and no give.
    Either way she will have taken control and dealt with reality.
    
    You can't sit in a sheltered little world and blame your pain on
    the people who pass through your life.  We all meet the same people in 
    the same world.  Not all of us are susceptible to the ones who would
    use us.  Therein lies the difference.
    
    Yes, I feel badly for the woman crying behind the garage door. 
    I cried behind a window once when I was 16.  But it was so obvious
    to me that I was crying not for him but for my illusion of love
    and romance that he was shattering.  I realized that neither he nor any
    man had any obligation to support my private fantasy.  Men have a right
    to be/do/say whatever they want and get whatever they can, just
    like we do.  And we have the right to accept what they choose to
    be/do/say or reject it just like they do with us.  I've learned
    to exercise my right of acceptance/rejection and to allow all men
    to exercise their right to behave any damn way they please.  And
    the woman in the garage needs to learn that she should only accept
    men who's behavior pleases her and not demand that the man she does
    accept be forced into pleasing her.  She's got it backwards.
    

    Re: 19 "I do know that far more womem than men will look at a damaged
    relationship and try to work the issues out........
    
    How do you know this?  
    
    I have been a 'Marriage Guidance Counsellor' in UK for a few years
    now and in my experience, at the end of the day it is the man who
    fights hardest to get a relationship together.  Don't underestimate
    men, they do have feelings.
    
    I counsel anyone in a relationship, be it married, single, gay,
    etc., and I hear lots of stories similar to what was witnessed in
    .0.
    
    Some people seem to thrive on this and we have no idea what went
    on on this occasion, yes.... we can care about the people involved,
    I certainly do and my counselling is my way of helping.
    
    Who knows what the guy was putting up with, maybe he had to get
    away to stop the situation getting worse, maybe she was a real bitch
    to him, there are three sides to every story, his, hers and the
    truth!
    
    Don't imagine I'm a person who's had no problems, I've had a tough
    marriage and divorce, I brought up my son alone, and although I'm
    very happy now, my present relationship has had lots of storms -
    and I know there were times when I drove my partner to the point
    of walking out - I knew he loved me and I knew I had pushed him
    - I knew he would be back and we'd enjoy the making up - maybe this
    was the case with the couple in .0.
    
    Perhaps the originator should have gone and comforted the woman.
    
    

    Re .26, sometimes I think the problem is that many men wait until
    the "end of the day" to realize they might like to salvage a
    relationship.  By that time, the woman may not care anymore.
    
    Re .23, it really bothers me that you state "I don't feel sorry
    for the woman" who was murdered by her husband last year in Leominster.
     How can you suggest that just because this woman was unable to
    manage a relationship with her violent husband that you don't even
    feel sorry that he killed her?  That makes my mind race forward
    and jump to the conclusion that maybe you think she got what she
    deserved and that would be horrible.  Is your heart as hard as a
    rock?  (To be rude and blunt your reply made me sick.  Sorry.)
    
    There is no one on this earth who hates screaming and yelling more
    than I do, but in regard to the scenario in .0, what I see is that
    the woman crying was the one who is hurting and not able to handle
    that hurt, and that the man driving away is handling it, and my
    sympathies always go to the one who is hurting.  I don't care why,
    I care that they are hurting, that's what counts.  (And I don't
    think the man was hurting, I don't think he was giving a f**k.)
    
    Re Sandy, I always agree with a lot of what you have to say, and
    I agree that people have to have self-respect and not let others
    use them, but it takes some people longer to learn this than others.
     And, I can't agree that anybody, male or female, has the right
    to act anyway they "damn please".  I think human beings have a
    responsibility to try to behave in a way that will minimize the
    hurt they do to others.
    
    I do blame people who act like management when they get all they
    can and give as little as possible.  I not only blame people but
    I blame management.  I despise that attitude in business as well
    as in people, and nothing will ever make me think that attitude
    is justified.  I refuse to blame the victim either in a relationship,
    or a low pay scale in a company.  I may not have enough brains or
    guts to do anything to make the world a better place, but I at least
    do know right from wrong.
    
    Lorna
    

    re: 27
    
    Maybe you're right, by the time people reach my counselling room,
    they have usually tried everything else - unfortunately - most people
    wait 'til the end of the line, instead of seeking help when things
    begin to go wrong.
    
    I think what I was trying to point out is, that I have seen many a woman
    shouting and screaming whilst a man is crying.  Always, in counselling
    one has to be impartial, but I have witnessed some heart rendering
    scenes and it's often the man getting the rough end of the deal.
    Sometimes, I cry with them (man or woman)

    RE: .27 (Lorna)
    
>    There is no one on this earth who hates screaming and yelling more
>    than I do, but in regard to the scenario in .0, what I see is that
>    the woman crying was the one who is hurting and not able to handle
>    that hurt, and that the man driving away is handling it, and my
>    sympathies always go to the one who is hurting.  I don't care why,
>    I care that they are hurting, that's what counts.  (And I don't
>    think the man was hurting, I don't think he was giving a f**k.)
     
    I am not sure I agree with your perception that a woman giving the
    outward appearance of weeping is "hurting."  She could have been
    drunk (i.e. "feeling no pain" ;^) and on a "crying jag."  I was
    involved for a short time with a woman who used techniques like
    that to get attention, or get her own way.  And, like the man in
    this incident, I WALKED!  But after a couple such incidents, I walked
    out of her life permanently!
    
    And regarding his _giving a f*ck_ - Perhaps he felt that the worse
    thing he could do was to give in to her "childish behavior" and
    stay and let Her manipulate Him!  (Of course, this is only a possible
    scenario, as I wasn't there, and have no idea what the reality of
    the situation was.)  And I do realize she *could* have been the
    wronged party, and that he was the *Bast*rd*.
    
    I hope a similar scene never happens to you noters.  Regardless
    of who was at fault, it is a very painful situation.
    
    Enjoy!
    
    Jack

    It could be too, that often the woman may only feel *safe * to scream
    and vent her frustrations when there is a responsible 3rd party
    present. Truly, you will only see a certain face of a couple's
    interaction, even in a counseling situation.
    
    There are many factors affecting their behaviours...
    
    --DE
    

    
    	It's strange to see most everyone assume the man in .0 was
    	the b**tard. For all we know he may of just come home and
    	found his wife in bed with another man. This happened to my
    	brother and he did the same thing this man did, walk!!! Yeah,
    	his (ex)wife followed him into the street and put on quite
    	the scene. There were also some neighbors that called my
    	brother a b*&tard for walking out on his wife. The point is
    	they didn't know what caused him to walk out, they just assumed
    	by her scene that it was his fault!!
    
    	G_B

    re: .31 (and some others) (I can't believe I'm agreeing with GB
    ;-) )
    
    It's true. a long-shot view of a "scene" can easily be misinterpreted.
    But I think the *real* issue and question here is the feelings this
    scene evoked in one person who saw it, and how they made her reflect
    on her own life. In that view, who was the "faulter" (heh,heh) or
    the "faultee" in that case is really irrelevant. 
    
    What's relevant is the exploration that the individual does about
    her feelings and her life.
    
    --DE
    

    re:27
    	I didn't suggest anything.....she had already kicked him out
    (pack 'im up, move 'im out) and taken him back knowing the type
    of person he was. She had already freed herself of this burden (him)
    and chose to return it to her back. I heartly respect any woman who
    can take herself out of any situation of this type, but I lose any feeling
    for someone who KNOWS the siuation and jumps back into it.
    	I used this as a means to not justify what the man in Vivians
    neighborhood did, rather as an example of what can happen when people
    lose control.                                 
    	
    	I'm sorry that my reply made you angry, but I'm glad that you
    responded, and I don't think your rude, honesty is not rudeness
    if that's the way you felt.
    
    Ken
    
    BTW, I'm not really that cold a person......
    

    God I really hate doing this since it only cluters up the file.
    Moderator you may blast this away if you feel the need to.
    
    Sorry this is going off the track but I really must protest since I put
in .5 & .6. Vivian I wasn't attacking you - just asking a question. So if
you thought that I apoligize. One problem with notes files is the inability
to talk directly to a person. One can't  read their body language or the
tone of their voice, so one tends to try to interpt what one reads and it
may not  necessarily be what was ment.

Lee I think you take offense to easily. I don't feel that my questions
were any more "attacking" then were the questions in .3. The reason I asked 
the question is that I  saw almost the exact situation in my own family. 
Where the real offender came off looking like the injured party while the 
real injured party wound up looking like the offender, because they walked.

Now as for my questions about Vivians relationship with her daughter.
Thats all they were, and yes I have seen where a parents attitude towards
the other partner effected the childrens attitude negatively.

    dave

    
    
    Good point, Dawn.  We really don't have enough details to accurately
    evaluate the situation, but it seems a worthy endeavor to explore
    the feelings that witnessing or hearing about such a scene brings
    up for us.
    
    Justine
    
    ps  anyone who can't understand why women often return to violent
        situations might be interested in reading about the phenomenon
        called the "Battered Woman Syndrome"  This was actually allowed
        to be considered as expert testimony in a court of law - hearing
        a case about a woman who murdered her abusive husband.  I could
        put together a decent bibliography for anyone who's interested.
                                                                        

    I might be rephrasing some other comments but I would feel several
    things if I saw a scene as Vivian described.
    
    My first thought would be "thank goodness, I will never do that
    again".  
    
    And then I would feel sympathy for the woman because I understood
    her emotion.
    
    I would not have any negative feelings about the man...not knowing
    the whole situation.
    
    My life began when I realized that I was responsible for my happiness.
    I will never beg again...but I will always shed tears in privacy
    for a lost dream.

    
    re:.23
    you don't feel sorry for the woman who got killed?????
    

    Re .37 and feeling sorry for victims:
    
    I'm not the original respondant, but in my opinion:
    
    o if the woman knew the man was potentially homicidal, and
    
    o if she returned to him anyway, and
    
    o if she had some alternative - knew about shelters, had friends
    or family to go to, etc.
    
    ...then I wouldn't feel too sorry for her either. If I were to make
    such a choice for myself, knowing the risk I took, I wouldn't want
    anyone feeling sorry for me. 

    Admittedly, most people in these situations don't seem to believe
    that there is any way out. But I'm at a loss about what to do for
    those who, even when they've been *told* where to go for help, choose
    to stay in the abusive situation. 
    
    -b

    
    I'm really surprised to hear that some folks would actually *blame*
    the woman for her own death.  It is hard to understand why
    some women find themselves unable to leave a violent partner.
    
    I was in a violent situation, and I *still* can't believe that it
    took me most of a year (after things got really bad) to leave.
    I think at first... you just can't believe it's happening.  There
    must be some mistake; I know I never considered myself to be a
    "battered woman."  Then.. you really start to believe that it's
    your fault and that if *you* will change, the violence will stop.
    Being emotionally and physically abused really changes you.  You
    start to believe that you deserve the cruel treatment.  When I look
    at myself now, I see a strong, intelligent woman, but not then...
    I was depressed, defeated, but somehow I got through it and
    lived to tell about it.  It really makes me feel awful to think
    that it I hadn't made it, people would blame me for *my* failings.
    Let's put the responsibility for violence where it belongs: on
    the batterer!
    
    Justine
           

    Re .39: I don't know if you were referring to my reply or not, but
    just in case - when I say I might not feel sorry for a victim who
    knowingly placed her/himself in a dangerous situation, that doesn't
    mean that I put the blame for the death on that person. The person
    who commits the crime is definitely to blame, and I don't mean to
    mitigate that.
    
    I'm not condemning her. However, if the facts of the case fit the
    pattern I indicated, I simply would not feel much sorrow for her.
    
    (This may be a question of definition. To me, feeling sympathy is
    a costly business; when something touches me, it can really hurt.
    I feel as if I am spending something of myself in sympathetic pain.
    And thus, I choose to be careful about when and why I put myself
    through that.)
    
    Or maybe it's my own view of the world. While I haven't been in
    a physically abusive situation, I've certainly made my share of
    mistakes - and to me, the WORST thing that can happen is to have
    somebody else *feel sorry for me*... I'd rather go through almost
    anything than be perceived as an object of pity. Heck, I think I'd
    rather have people shake their heads and say, "Well, she always
    did insist on doing things her own way," than to say "Poor thing."
    The latter, to me, implies that I didn't know what I was doing,
    and/or that I wasn't responsible for my actions, and I *HATE* that.
    
    I suppose I should keep in mind that other people don't necessarily
    feel this way!

    -b

    
    >The wife had previously had him arrested for threatening her and 
    >also had him removed from the premises. 
    
    It seems to me the woman took steps in the right direction to try to avoid 
    further problems for herself.  It was her husband who CHOSE to come back
    and kill them.  She had no control over that happening.  Instead of
    having him removed from the premises maybe she should have killed him 
    herself to ensure (just incase) that he won't ever come back?
    Maybe she didn't think it would go that far.  since we don't know
    all of the circumstances in this case its hard to say.       
                                              
    
          
    

    Back a few years, I was married to a man who was very mentally abusive
    and when I look back at how defeated I always felt, thats when I
    rejoice at the growth I have now achieved.  I agree with Joyce,
    maybe its the feeling that I will never feel that I need to beg 
    or plead again that made me see the situation as I did. 
    
    vivian

    re: .43
    
    	May I ask how many times you've been battered?  Or had to choose
    between being battered and being alone?  May I ask how big you are
    and how strong should someone attack you?  How about backing off
    on the judgements until you've had a little more experience in the
    receiving end of the game.
    
    			Dondi
    

    	RE:  .43
    
    	Matt, one would hope that your attitude was not meant to
    	be typical of "good guys" ...
    
    	Refraining from being physically abusive does not automatically
    	make one a Prince ...
    
    

    Re: .43
    
    I have tremendous sympathy for battered women - though I have never
    been abusive myself nor could ever even think of being so, a majority
    of the women I have become close to HAVE been abused by others,
    and each new tale shocks me and makes me angry.  I can only hope
    that the caring attitude I express can help them heal in some small
    way.
    					Steve

    re:.43
    
    I never have, nor will I ever, take a rifle, walk into a public
    place, and start shooting people. So, I can't work up any sympathy
    for anyone who would feel masochistic enough to allow himself to
    be shot by such a madman.
    
    --- jerry

    
                   -.1   A very poor analogy/comparison.
    
    
    

	Re: in defense of .43

	WARNING --		Flame on 		-- WARNING

	Hit Return if you're sure you want to hear this.  Otherwise
	press next reply or next unseen.

	I am a male, 23 yrs old.  I, too, have felt the frustration
	that .43 refers to that I have never beaten *anyone* and
	yet have repeatedly had women who wanted to be "just friends"
	with me, yet would stay with their abusive boyfriends.  

	After a period of time I no longer spend much of my symphathetic
	energies on women who stay in relationships that are abusive.
	I don't condemn the women, nor do I blame them for the violence
	that is perpetrated against them.  

	But I am fed up with people assuming that it is *only* 
	women who can be abused!  And with people who assume that
	abuse in a relationship causes the abused to be helpless.
	(Re. talk of people gunned down in public, that's totally
	different, those people in public have no relationship
	with the abuser, and no forewarning of the attack.  Often
	abused people in relationships have *lots* of warning)

	To answer some questions levied to .43 (I feel I can answer
	them since I share some of his feelings)

	Yes, I have been beaten.  As a child, by an older brother.
	In that situation, I did have nowhere to turn to.  My parents
	either could not or would not help, they simply felt as 
	helpless as I did.  I shared a room with him.  They couldn't
	stay in there all the time, right?  It wasn't much comfort.

	But, before you say, "well, why don't you sympathize?"  I
	*learned* from that.  I learned that I will *never* accept
	even *one* occurance of any sort of violence towards me.
	That includes physical, verbal, or any other veriety.

	I have experienced a relationship with a woman who was
	verbally abusive, and on occasion, physically abusive
	(although not to me, but I knew it had happened to other
	men, during our relationship.  Before you get too confused
	we were friends, not lovers.  I consider my rules for
	abuse to apply to *everyone*.  Also, it was an extremely
	close friendship, it far outlasted any of her SO relationships.
	And I loved her very much.)  She had never been abusive
	to me, however, and I rationalized that the abuse to
	others must be justified.  Also, I was working under the
	mislead assumption that only men are abusive (some statistics
	show that as many women are abusive to their SOs as men are).

	On the first occasion that she was verbally abusive to me,
	I simply cut off my feelings to her.  Cold?  Perhaps, but
	it certainly saved me alot of grief.  She was so shocked that
	she didn't react for a year (a YEAR, not a typo).  Ie. we
	did not see each other for a year, or if we did we didn't talk.
	I was civil (I'd say hi or whatever), but I wouldn't try to 
	make amends.  She fully expected that she could get away with 
	abusive behavior because she was a woman.  Not a sexist remark, 
	*I* didn't think it, *she* did.

	After a year she set up a situation so we'd be around each
	other, then got me alone (through refusing to take part in
	any activities unless I would talk to her privately), then
	tried to get me to return to our previous relationship.

	I won't go into the conversation because this note is 
	already too long.  My point is: Yes, I have been in that
	situation, yes I know the feelings that people can go,
	through, and NO I do not think the woman is helpless.

	In most cases that end in injury, the abuse starts out
	as minor, then leads to something major.  The abused
	person often accepts *lots* before finally deciding they
	have had enough, by that time its often too late, the
	abuser has flown completely off their rocker.  Don't 
	read this as saying the abuser is not in fault.

	On the contary, it seems that the abuser is never really
	shown just how much at fault they really are at.  By who?
	By the abused person!  If you are abused, even just once,
	THAT'S TOO MUCH!!!  The person has already shown what they
	are capable of.  If you are willing to forgive them, then
	you are willing to live with the possibility that it can
	happen again, and YOU ARE CHOOSING TO LIVE WITH THAT 
	POSSIBILITY.

	How should you punish the person?  Absolute and total withdrawel
	from the relationship.  Sure it's tough to be alone, but
	if you love yourself, it is much better than living in
	fear for your life.

	Sorry this has gone on so long (I could write more...)
	But thanks for letting me get this out.  If anyone
	has any *really* strong replies, feel free to write me
	mail.  It would be easier because space would not be
	so restricting.  As to my point, I hope it helps the 
	discussion...

	Kb

    re: .43
        
    �                                                  Is this self-
    �    destructive, masochistic behavior a stage females go through
    �    somewhere in the first half of their lives?

    No, it's an other-destructive, sadistic behavior which an alarming
    number of men carry with them for their entire lives.  BTW, I thought
    Jerry's analogy was very appropriate.  The only major difference
    I see is that the madman's behavior is (usually) random; that of
    the male batterer is usually not.
    
    Steve
    
    
    

    re .50
    	So I still don't know why you don't sympathize.  I don't assume
    that only women are abused.  Why, one of my best friends is a battered
    husband.  My argument with .43 is simply that it just is not as simple and
    easy a problem as people would like it to be.  Your own experience
    of being beaten by your brother bears that out.  Why didn't you
    leave: because..., and ..., and.....  That is my point.  You don't
    need someone telling you that you don't get sympathy because you're
    a victim.  It's complicated.
    	 A victim is not always powerless.  However true that may be
    I don't care to see the difficulty of overcoming an abusive situation
    reduced to "just get out" by people who have no idea of what is
    going on.  The attention is again being dumped on the victim and
    not on the abuser.  And instead of turning a back, try extending
    a hand and showing a heart.    

    I have a few comments on your reply...
    
    #1
    
    You stated that you were abused by your older brother when you were
    younger and NOW (now that you are older and understand that this
    behavior should not be tolerated) you won't tolerate abuse from
    anyone.  But somewhere along the line you had to LEARN and BELIEVE
    that this behavior should not be tolerated...Its the same with battered
    women, somewhere along the line they have to LEARN and BELIEVE that
    they are worth more than a punching bag for someone to vent their
    feelings on.  For most it doesn't happen overnight.
    
    Another line from your reply that hit me like a ton of bricks, 'if
    the person loves themself..'
    
    It seems fairly obviously that most people in abusive situations
    don't think too much of themselves during that period of time. 
    Which could have alot to do with upbringing, and their childhood,
    etc.  I'm not going to go into what makes a person develop a low
    self-esteem because I think we all can pretty much figure that
    out...(being told your useless, never amount to anything, everything
    is your fault, being abused as a child, having an abused/abusive
    parent, and the list goes on) but when things like this are hammered
    into you it makes it alittle difficult to think you deserve better,
    when you haven't seen what better is.
    
   
    Tanya

    .53 was commenting on .50
         
    <set flame ON>
         
    and to .43  I would just like to say that calling abused women
    MASOCHISTS is such a nice thing to say in THIS file (Womannotes)
    where I'm sure there are quite a few women in this situation or 
    that have been in this situation, who really needed to hear a sh*tty
    remark like that.                                               
                                                                    
    Most battered women don't cry out for sympathy anyway.  In fact 
    most battered women don't want to get others involved or "bother"
    other people with their problems...another example of low self-esteem
    but not MASOCHISM.  And sympathy they do receive is just  something                               
    that most people with a heart can't help but feel for them.
                                                             
    Tanya
    Tanya

	Re.: Comments on my <Flaming>

	You've made some good points.  I'll think about it.  In the
	meantime, my sympathy goes out to those in situations where
	they feel powerless, and my hopes go out to them that they
	find the strength and self-love that I have.

	Sometimes I get frustrated when I see someone suffering
	through something I've suffered through (and resolved).
	Perhaps I feel that, since I've figured it out, everyone
	should have.  That *is* cold.

	Thank you for pointing it out.

	Kerry

    <--(.43)
    
    I have to agree with Tanya (.54) that "masochistic" is a dismayingly
    poor choice of words at best.  It says, to me, a great deal more about
    the writer than about the women he is attempting to characterise. 
    
                                           	=maggie

    
    re:.43
    'i have never ever been emotionally...abusive towards any women...'
    well, you have certainly been emotionally abusive to the women in
    this notesfile by your entry.
    as a man i am appalled, but not surprised, at such insensitivity
    

    re .50
    
    That was immensely touching.  Even nicer was to see that after writing
    such a reply, Tanya's comments touched you.  Seriously Kerry, you
    made my day.  One disclaimer re your comment ("it wasn't sexist;
    SHE said it") - after the failure of the ERA, I doubt there are
    many people in this file who would claim that women are never sexist
    (against other women).  It is one of the true mysteries of life...
    
    re .58
    
    >    Kerry and myself are angry at the lack of rationality
    >    we see from the women we've known. And we hold them responsible
    >    for their own destinies. 
    
    I find it difficult to believe that the comments you have "contributed"
    (why thank you _ever_ so much) here originate from the same planet
    as .50.
    
    Lee

    re:.49
    
    You say that my analogy in .48 was "very poor", but you don't
    say why.
    
    re:.50
    
    �(Re. talk of people gunned down in public, that's totally
     different, those people in public have no relationship with
     the abuser, and no forewarning of the attack....�
    
    I can't say for sure, since .43 has been deleted, but I don't
    recall that there was a distinction made between a woman staying
    in an abusive situation and those who have been abused for the
    first time, only that the noter said that he didn't feel any
    sympathy with women who allowed themselves to be battered. 
    
    �...Often abused people in relationships have *lots* of warning)�
    
    And very often they don't. Again, there was no distinction made
    between the two.
    
    Personally, though I feel that women who knowingly stay in an
    abusive situation are making a serious mistake, I do not feel that
    they are inviting abuse by doing so, any more than I feel that
    women are inviting men to rape them by walking down a city street
    after dark. And if a woman is not inviting abuse, then she will
    get my sympathy.
    
    --- jerry

    The following hidden by the form feed is what a group of men in the
    Boston area who are working on controlling themselves have put together.
    They are in a peer group setting, led by their peers, and they do go
    out to various groups and speak when asked.  I went to one such time
    several years ago at the Health Information Referral Service in Marlboro.
    *I* figured out how to ask whether the speakers were just counselors
    or had been offenders and was informed by the two men that, yes, they
    were offenders.  I was told by my girlfriend who went who made sure she
    got a copy of this listing from them that *she* has had most everything
    on this list happen to her.  She is now in the long process of putting
    her life back into the track of "hey, I deserve to be a human being!"
    I applaud her efforts and anyone who starts that long, involved process
    of becoming a human being.  It is a road filled with many hidden 
    trials and errors but is worth the effort of starting and stopping and
    starting all over again however many times it takes to recover.  Please
    support anyone who starts this process and help them by realizing that
    they had a tough time getting to any point in their journey.  They have
    to take that journey themselves, no one else can do if for them BUT
    PLEASE DON'T ADD ANY UNNECESSARY ROCKS/BOULDERS IN THEIR PATHWAY!

    Thanks for listening.

    justme....jacqui

			CONTINUUM OF MALE CONTROL


				PHYSICAL
				--------

		Rape, Child Sexual Assault, Incest

		Assault and Battery, Punching, Kicking

		Slapping, Throwing, Grabbing, Choking, Pushing

			Threatening Physical Violence

			Preventing Exit or Access

		Throwing Objects, Breaking Furniture

		Ripping Clothes, Photos, Personal Items

		Hitting Children, Self, Pets, Inanimate Objects

		Tearing our Phones, Taking Bank and Credit Cards

			Withholding Apartment or Car Keys

				Driving Recklessly


				PSYCHOLOGICAL
				-------------

			Criticism, Ridicule, Mocking, Blaming

		Belittle, Invalidate, Accuse, Swearing, Name Call

		Interrupting, Change Topics, Yell, Not Listen

		Not Respond, Claim "Truth", Practicality, Objective

			Money to Manipulate, Pressure

				Sexual Pressure

				Defining Her Behavior

				Emotional Withholding
		
				Not Taking Care of Self
				   (so woman does)


				INSTITUTIONAL
				-------------

				Sociological

				"Define Reality"

			Institutions Controlled by Men

    
    

    re: .61
    
    	Sorry, I thought there was a form feed in my package I 
    	brought over to this file.  I don't think I am working 
    	in the EDT editor mode in the notesfile and need to 
    	find my directions on how to change to that mode.
    
    	justme....jacqui
    

    <--(.62)
    
    SET PROFILE/EDITOR=(EDT,CALL)

    re:  -.1

    Thanks for the quick and easy lesson.  I have promptly done it and
    have made a copy for my files in case my memory gets dropped some-
    where along the way.  ;^)

    justme....jacqui

    EDT is so much more fun to use!!!!

    Small to moderate NOTES nit:
    
    Unless you have a lot invested in an EDTINI file, try 
    SET PROFILE/EDITOR=EDT instead.
    
    This gives you the EDT keypad, emulated inside of EVE. This is a 
    distinct advantage on a big screen, gives you the full power of TPU, 
    including the split windows, doesn't mess up your scrolling regions 
    like native EDT does, etc. etc.  Try it...

    Since it's usually the other way around, that IS odd!

           <<< RAINBO::$2$DJA6:[NOTES$LIBRARY]WOMANNOTES-V2.NOTE;1 >>>
                        -< Topics of Interest to Women >-
================================================================================
Note 93.58                  pack em up, move him out                    58 of 58
TSECAD::HEALY "Perpetuating life makes no sense."    57 lines   8-AUG-1988 20:27
                             -< Hi. Its me again. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    
    about note .50
    
    > She fully expected that she could get away with abusive behavior
      because she was a woman.
    
        I believe you.
    
    > After a year she set up a situation so we'd be around each other,
      then got me alone (through refusing to take part in any activities
      unless I would talk to her privately), then tried to get me to
      return to our previous relationship.
    
        You know and I know it is one ridiculous, absurd, stinking little
        game dealing with women (excuse me...wimmin) in this age group
        who I am assuming is approximately your age.
    
    to note .51
    
        Steve, like that corny little cliche states "Its a free country
        and I can......". You can believe that atrocious analogy you
        call "appropriate" as long and as hard as you want.
    
    about note .50
    
        Are you comparing a childs dependency on his parents and home
        with that of a womans in her twenties or thirties?
        ("Why, one of my best friends is a battered husband." Cute!)
    
    reply to .54
    
        My use of the word "masochist" was not meant to be insultive,
        it was meant to be technically accurate. Any individual who
        makes a conscious or sub-conscious decision to remain under
        these conditions is masochistic. Should I come up with a 
        lesser word? Why, Tanya, are you so mad? If what I'm saying
        is not the truth, why does it bother you so much? Your opinions
        don't bother me. Go into MENNOTES and slander the male gender
        in every way, shape and form! I promise I won't do any more
        than chuckle to myself. I won't call your boss and hide behind
        anonymity.
    
        Does one have to be a timid conformist to share in this file?
        Are slight variations of your own opinions the only ones you'll
        tolerate? Kerry and myself are angry at the lack of rationality
        we see from the women we've known. And we hold them responsible
        for their own destinies. 
    
    to note .56
      
        Maggie, see the first line in the paragraph two above. Again,
        it was not meant to be insultive, although from the last line
        in your entry I can see you took it that way.
    
                                                                 MATT
    
    
        -------------------------------------------------------------
    
         This would have been entry .57 had I entered it when I wrote
        it. If you intend on responding to it with me in mind - don't
        bother, I won't be around to read it. Its been a real delight!
        Bye.
    
    

    Goodbye, Matt.  Good luck.
    
    						=maggie

    I feel the same way as you.  I don't place a lot of value men. While
    I am also Hetero., I feel that a man should add something to your
    independent life, not BE your whole life.  I would/have not fallen
    apart at the end of a relationship, because I am comfortable with
    myself, can take care of myself and enjoy life with or without the
    companionship.  This is not to say I haven't felt down after a breakup,
    but I certainly wouldn't run out in front of my house crying and
    acting like a mad woman who was going to die because a man left
    her.  
    
    I'm not trying to demean the woman in your example, she probable
    had many good reasons for feeling and acting the way she did, but,
    I just wanted to let you know that I feel the same way you do.
    
    JM
    
    

    Re .70, I think it should be remembered that people are just plain
    more emotional *acting* than others.  I can imagine a scenario where
    a woman might scream and cry at the actual moment of the breakup,
    but deep down inside really feel the way you do about men and life.
     Some of us just like to scream and yell and let out all our
    frustrations when we get upset over something.  Then, once we've
    got it out of our systems we calm down and get on with our lives.
     I can imagine myself being as upset as the woman in .0 at the moment
    of the breakup, but by the next day I'd be realizing that I was
    going to get by just fine on my own, and that I can still enjoy
    life without him, etc.
    
    Lorna
    

    Re: .0
    
    I think Vivian is doing exactly the right thing by influencing her
    daughter in such a way that she will know she doesn not have to
    end up looking out the garage window and crying after her man. 
    I have many woman friends who have beautiful 9-year old daughters
    and I wouldn't trade their attitude for anything.  They know we
    all have a life, with or without a man in the relationship.  I
    encourage what Vivian is teaching her daughter and feel secure that her
    daughter will never have to go thru the humiliation it a scene like that
    can cause for everyone around.  I'm sure Vivian will always be proud
    of her daughter.

    Hello Vivian,  how's your neighbor these days.  Has she smartened
    up at all?????

    re: -.1
    nope, they are still together.  they still have very public fights.
    He has taken to attempting to flirt with me when I am out working
    in the yard.  The key word is attempt, cause my contempt is very
    obvious.  I am polite but nothing close to friendly.  His wife is
    usually sitting on the front step while he is doing this too.  Now
    that winter is coming I don't think I'll see them much more. maybe
    with spring time she'll grow stronger. I don't advocate them 
    breaking up though I would like to see her NOT just buy into his games.
    know what I mean?  
    
    vivian