Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    I see many references to the term "healing" in note 90.  I'm struck by the
    glowing way in which it is used, but I'm not sure I understand what it
    means in this context.  It seems to mean that women have suffered
    some wound that can only heal in the presence of other women.  Could
    someone explain just what sort of wounds these are, where they come
    from, and what is involved in the healing process?  
    
    A tall order, I guess, but I sense a possibility for learning something
    important here.
    
    Mike

"a very simple comment about the evening "There was no competition" amoung the
women present" [90.2]

I'm sure you have something there!  Men are always forced to compete!  Even in a
male only gathering, maybe even especially in a male gathering...  Maybe
that's one of the reasons I like women so much...

JMB 

RE: .1 Hi Mike,

    For myself its not so much a suffering wound that I'm recovering from
    when I enjoy the company of other women, it's more of a refreshing
    event, a cleansing of the mind.  The only thing I can compare it to is
    an early morning walk in the mountains.  Its like letting the dead
    thoughts go from your mind so that the new thoughts have a place to
    grow.

    So, you might ask, why don't I get this feeling in mixed-gender
    groups.  I don't know.  But you've peaked my curiousity about it.  My
    hubby and I can create this atmosphere, but I haven't seen it with
    larger groups.

    What's also very wierd for me is that my two sisters and I fought like
    crazy as we were growing up, so enjoying women's company now isn't
    tied to a close relationship with siblings.  Who knows...

						-Leslie

    re .1 Mike
    
�    Could
�    someone explain just what sort of wounds these are, where they come
�    from, and what is involved in the healing process?  
    
    Wounds: being raped or otherwise physically attacked, fear of being 
    raped or otherwise physically attacked, being verbally accosted in the
    street, having our careers and/or our opinions denigrated and dismissed
    as so worthless as to preclude listening or consideration as valid.
    
    Involved in the healing process is GETTING AWAY from environments
    which risk these.  Many find that the best get-away is woman-space.
    
    Lee

    re .1 also...
    
    I am in a non-traditional field (although to look around my department,
    you'd never know it...:-).  I had an engineering background and
    I'm a tech writer.  There were few women to share my thoughts with
    throughout my education.  Now I find that in the presence of women
    found in places such as womannotes, I feel a sense of relaxation.
    I feel hope - because I'm not quite so alone...and I think it has
    less to do with the tradition or non-tradition of the field than
    the realization/complete-absorption/embodiment/empowering of the
    concept that many women are intelligent, warm, caring, funny, fully-human,
    introspective, sensitive, logical, light-hearted, free-spirited
    beings.  This replaces the thoughts that were distilled in me
    throughout junior-high and high-school, when a vast majority of
    the other females were silly, giggly, catty, and cared only about 
    what they wore and who they went out with.  I was devastated by
    the revelation in high school (and even college, although to a lesser
    degree) that I could find the intellectual, logical, introspective 
    discussions/sharing I sought almost solely in a few male friends
    I had.  I felt so separate - so different - so out of place (like
    an X in a field of O's).  But now I feel I am in good company -
    I am not some sort of unique and bizarre mutation of the female
    gender.  I am fine.  WE are fine.  It is so great to be able to
    kick back and share with these womenfolk.  In all honesty, sometimes
    when some men are around (not all men, of course), it is difficult
    to be fully myself - I tend to (consciously or subconsciously) guard
    my words and edit them before I communicate my thoughts.  But I
    think the healing is a restoration of faith I had lost, an affirmation
    that I have worth not only as a person, but as part of a grand whole
    fabric, a wonderful tapestry of women, the warp and weft of which
    we are an integral part...   

    -Jody
    

	I was surprised to see so much talk in 90.* about women
	not being accepting.  I've always felt women were much
	more accepting then men (being a male, this probably 
	goes right along with what people are saying, huh? :-) ).

	I too, am trying to find the positive and wonderful things
	that my own sex has to offer.  And so far I've had some
	wonderful results.  My comment to women is: you're not
	alone!  Men feel this way too when it comes to other men.
	Like someone else already said, competition abounds.

	Interestingly enough, I have the most fun with groups of
	gay men.  Not exclusively (I have two male roommates that
	I *love* spending time with), but to a great degree.  Of
	course on these occasions, people are already paired up,
	so there isn't any "scoping" going on.  I wonder though,
	is this same-sex-tension an off shoot of homophobic feelings
	in our society?  I have to admit, at a younger age, I
	wondered about guys who were overly friendly, even though
	I've *always* been very liberal about gays in both sexes.

	Enough for now I guess...

	Kb

	I'd have to say that for me being with just women doesn't do that
	much for me, nor does being with just men. Being with people who
	are close to me makes me feel good. I do speak to my women friends
	of things I might not share with a male but that's more from a
	shared experience feeling (how many guys have periods?) 

	I've spent a lot of my life feeling outside the world of other
	women. I always wanted to stay in the living room and talk to the
	guys after supper, not stand in the kitchen and discuss diapers.
	I have more in common with the guys I work with than with a house-
	wife (BTW, I've been a housewife and I hated it). I'm sick to death
	of size 8 women telling me how fat they are, or tearing apart one
	of my friends cause they think she dresses like a tramp. I've had
	girlfriends that were hookers (you do what you gotta do to survive)
	and I could scream at the women who scorn them as if they were
	diseased. Don't get me wrong here, most men aren't any better, I'm
	just saying that being female is not the cement of friendship for me.

	I have some close female friends at work and at the barn where I
	board my horse. These friends I feel close to and share experiences
	with, but in just a general group of women I find there is no particular
	feeling of closeness just because we are all women. I do admit I
	don't fear strange women the way I fear strange men. I don't feel
	threatened by women, but that's a far cry from feeling immediate
	bonding.  

	This makes me think of the days when Blacks called every other Black
	they met Sister or Brother to signify that sense of oneness and 
	belonging. I can't say if this helped them or not. I feel like I'm
	going to get flamed as a traitor to women but this is how I feel.
	liesl

    Well, it's nice to feel that I'm NOT alone, indeed. In many ways
    I agree with .7. I also do not feel more comfortable or safe in
    a group of women solely because they are women. In fact, I think
    I prefer to be able to have a balance of men and women in my life.
    I have known men who were much more supportive and understanding
    than some of my women friends. For some reason, they understood
    my feelings better than other women. Strange, huh ?
    
    There have been times when I have felt very isolated because I didn't
    feel that 'special bonding' with being with only women that the women here 
    have spoken about. I wondered at why I didn't feel that way. But
    I suppose that whether I'm with all men, all women or both, if the
    people I'm with are people I'm close to, there is a feeling of
    specialness to it. And if the people I'm with are not very close
    to me, then the experience may be a bit less special.
    
    It's been a long, difficult day so I'm not sure what I'm really
    trying to express here. Maybe I'll be able to writer more clearly
    at another time.
    
    joan g.
    

    It almost seems strange to me to think in terms of same-sex groups
    being rare and unique experiences.  As a man, I have often been
    frustrated at the large number of events I have made the effort to
    attend, to try to be more social, only to find that this new
    activity is yet another of the type that only attract men.  I have
    to make a special effort to develop interests that might also be
    shared by women.  I have even decided to not get involved in a hobby
    because the group was so exclusively male.

    At one time, when I was working at a company that employed much
    fewer women than DEC, I commented to a friend that it seemed like
    the world had many, many more men then women.
        
    Relating to new men is so common place.  Meeting new women often
    involves a much more sophisticated social ritual than my social skill
    level allows.
    						MJC O->
                         
    

    in re .8
    
    Joan,
    
    I think looking back on my life that I have been deeply hurt
    - tho in different ways - by both men and women. Men have
    hurt me by not loving me as I expected them to, or by breaking
    up with me when I didn't expect them to...and all of that hurt...
    but women have hurt me as or more deeply, and also I have
    been loved and affirmed strongly by both men and women.
    
    During most of my adolesance a lot of the hurt I remember came
    from other girls/women...not guys...I remeber being given
    laxitive candy as a joke by another girl, I rememember girls
    talking about me that I didn't use proper deoderant, I remeber
    being criticised because I wore wool clothes after the first
    of april in Va...I remember being laughed at in slumber parties
    because I was fat...after I had been tricked into taking all my
    clothes off...when I thought that was part of being acepted.
    
    I remember going to an all women's college and finding several
    women who are still my dear and close friends..I also remember
    that a group of a bout 20 to 30 women out of a graduating class
    of over 450 made up the year book with only their friends so ..
    except for my class formal picture neither I nor none of my
    good friends appear in the year book...
    
    and I also remember a group of women who I became very close to
    just after I had my second child many of whom I still stay in touch
    with and who are very loyal to each other...and I recall calling
    one of those college friends tonite and still feeling like friends
    even tho we haven't seen each other in 8 years...and I can
    also recall dear women who I have talked to on the phone at night
    many a night from this file who I value highly..
    
    So I would say that women have both hurt me more than men over
    the years and have also supported me more.
    
    With the exception of my husband...
    
    but I love all of those who have become close to me.
    
    Bonnie

I think one thing that women like about all women groups is that there are no
men for them to feel afraid of, be competing for, etc...

That has kind of a negative connotation to me, like if we were all better at
relating whith each other then life could have that wonderfull atmosphere all
the time no matter that 'kind' of people we were with...

Wouldn't that be nice?

There have been a couple of people that have said 'there must be something wrong
with me, I don't bond to opposite/same sex'.  I feel that that is usually a
false *conclusion*.  Sure it might be something in your life that you might want
to look at, but the starting conclusion that there is something wrong is
premature. 

JMB

JMB 

    >I think one thing that women like about all women groups is
    >that there are no men for them to feel afraid of, be competing
    >for, etc...
    
    Is this true????  If so I think that if I were to come across one
    of them I would sue them for discrimination.....you know...for the
    principal of the thing....

    
    
    It isn't true.
    

    Thank you for setting that straight.  

Do you *really* feel that you can speak for all women???

    Well, Jim, on this, she speaks for me.  Therefore, it is indeed
    Not (True for All Women).
    
    						Ann B.

    re:.16
    
    �Do you *really* feel that you can speak for all women???�
    
    Well, do you?
    
    You made a supposition about women, giving no facts to back it up.
    Suzanne may not be able to speak for *all* women, but when it comes
    down to what women in general feel about a given situation, I would
    be more inclined to listen to her speaking from her own experience,
    than to you tossing off unsubstantiated thoughts.
    
    A more general comment on the issue:
    
    Just as Diana (90.4) claims that she generally feels closer to men
    than to other women, I have found that for the most part, my closest
    friends have mostly been women. I've just found that I can generally
    be more open with women than with men. A lot of it, I think, is
    that I feel more able to express my emotions with women, because
    they are more inclined to listen and be supportive.
    
    --- jerry

    also re .16
    
    rather regularly, i do not join a discussion because it would be
    stressful and suzanne is there, speaking _very_ well for me.  by
    taking on so many of the hard arguments, she (as well as sandy,
    catherine, justine, golly there are so many) makes it possible for
    me to concentrate on the issues which are of more concern for me.
    
    lt

re: back a whole bunch

    I'm not sure I would describe certain kinds of all-women
    gatherings as "healing," at least not for me.  But I think I
    do know the feeling being described, and it might well be
    "healing" for some women; for me, I think it's closer to
    "empowering."  When a group of women (or even, occasionally,
    women and men) get together for the sole purpose of
    emphasizing and exploring the unique worth, abilities, and
    experiences of the individuals *as women*, it can be an
    incredibly powerful feeling.  I've felt this most clearly in
    a women's encounter group.  I would think the same thing
    would be true for a group of men exploring their potential
    *as men*, or for a group of deaf people exploring their
    potential *as deaf people* ... or whatever.  It's a little
    like "valuing differences," except it's valuing differences
    in yourself. 

    I have not had this feeling even in a group of women that got
    together for some other purpose--to go to a movie, or
    shopping, or to play softball.  That's a lot of fun, and
    maybe more "healing" for me in some ways...but it doesn't
    have the almost scary electrifying feeling of all this
    incredible potential energy that could be unleashed, at any
    moment, to make ourselves and our world a different place.
    It's the potential for *change* that I think I feel so
    strongly in the other situation.

re 90.4

    Diana, I do know what you mean about not feeling as close to
    women as to men.  I have always tended to feel closest to
    whomever I was dating at the time:  it seems easier to share
    dreams, hopes, and goals with a lover than "just" a friend.
    But I think you *can* ask another woman to go to a movie or
    dinner without having her think you "peculiar" or whatever.
    If it makes it seem less like asking for a date, maybe asking
    a friend to do something on a weekend afternoon than an
    evening would be easier?  Maybe going shopping, or to a
    museum, or a crafts festival, or whatever.  You're right that
    in some sense the rules don't seem as clear for doing
    "friendship" things as for doing "dating" things; one may
    have to think a little more about what would be fun to do
    with this particular person rather than relying on a standard
    "script" such as so many of us have for dating.

    -- Linda

"You made a supposition about women, giving no facts to back it up. Suzanne may
not be able to speak for *all* women, but when it comes down to what women in
general feel about a given situation, I would be more inclined to listen to her
speaking from her own experience, than to you tossing off unsubstantiated
thoughts."

I explicitly stated what my experience with women (what they have told me) lead
me to believe, and that that was my opinion.  I did not say "I speak for all
women" or speak of my opinion as a fact.

JMB

    	RE:  .21
    
    	>  I explicitly stated what my experience with women (what they
    	>  have told me) lead me to believe...
    
    		Nowhere in .11 did you state where you got that supposition
    		about why you think women like all women groups.  
    
    		You didn't state explicitly (or even hint) that it
    		came from anywhere but your own imagination.

    		Aside from the fact that your supposition completely
    		contradicts every other statement made by women in this
    		conference as to why they like all women groups, you
    		also saw fit to lecture to us about why we shouldn't
    		feel the way that you suggested to us that we feel.
    
    		If you can't see a problem with that, then there's no
    		way I can explain it to you.

"I THINK one thing that women like about all women groups is ..." [.11]

JMB

    re:.23
    
    If that quote doesn't support what both Suzanne and I said, I don't
    know what does.
    
    You said, "I think..." without giving any source for what made you
    think that, no substantiation, nothing to suggest that you arrived
    at that conclusion by anything other than, as Suzanne put it, your
    imagination.
    
    If you had said in the beginning something like, "I've come to the
    conclusion, by observing and talking with female friends of mine
    that...", I would have not have commented as I did. Your conclusions
    would still be debatable, but I'd have no arguments with the way
    you arrived at them.
    
    --- jerry

    re .11
    
    What makes you think that in a mixed group of people the women are
    competing with each other for the men?  
    

    re: .25
    
    It happens a lot in the real world, though not so much at DEC
    engineering parties.
    
    --bonnie

"You said, "I think..." without giving any source for what made you think that,
no substantiation"

You could have asked instead of trying to trash me right off the bat...

Geez... can't please everyone... try to be brief, and what'dya get?  Static.
get vebose, and the sky falls in...

Jim :-)

    re:.27
    
    �You could have asked instead of trying to trash me right off the
    bat...�
    
    Trash? Where did I try to "trash" you. I think you're being overly
    sensitive. Here's the sequence of events:
    
    (1) You made an unsubstantiated statement, one that implied (by not
    explcitly stating otherwise) that all women follow the pattern you
    describe.
    
    (2) You took Suzanne to task for attempting to speak "for all women".
    
    (3) I simply pointed out that you were implicitly making the same
    error, and in an area in which you had far less credibility (or
    perhaps "credentials") than Suzanne.
    
    (4) You attempted to refute my point with the very statement that
    proved my point.
    
    When someone points out errors on my part, I don't assume they're
    out to trash me. Why do you?
    
    �You could have asked...�
    
    And you could have explained what you meant right from the beginning.
    So we're even. This isn't a courtroom with you as a witness and me as
    a lawyer performing cross-examination.
    
    �Geez... can't please everyone... try to be brief, and what'dya
    get?  Static. get vebose, and the sky falls in...�
    
    "Brief" does not mean leaving out essential information which the
    reader requires to make an assessment of your statements. I can
    only go by what you say, not what I think you meant to say.
    
    --- jerry

"I can only go by what you say, not what I think you meant to say."

Oh, yeah?  Well why then:

"You made an unsubstantiated statement, one that implied (by not explcitly
stating otherwise)"?

JMB