Conference turris::womannotes-v2

I think this is a good example of a "real" difference :-).

The question is how should we handle real differences in general and this
one in particular?

Myself, I'd prefer to save this for people who are special to me...

JMB

    Some places are more equal than others in this respect.  It is very
    common for everyone (except the Americans :-) to sunbathe topless at
    French beaches. I don't know if this equality extends to such things as
    mowing lawns. Perhaps some of our European readers could shed some
    light on this. 
   
    I do remember being rather annoyed that my mother made me put my shirt
    back on on hot summer days when I was six years old, while my brothers
    didn't have to put theirs on.  Not at all fair or comfortable. 

    
    	This is one area that I have always had a problem with. I can't
    for the life of me understand what "size","shape", etc. has to do
    with anything. As an infant they were the focus of my life for 8
    months because my food supply was there. Maybe that's why they don't
    hold the fasination for me that other males have with them.
    	They seem to be the cause of as much concern for women in some
    cases. I assume that this is because soem females equate breast
    size with being feminine or female. I guess there must be more to
    this than I see because the plastic surgeons make a fortune fixing
    up sagging ones, adding size, adding them period.
    	Just as a question: Do you women feel less female or feminine
    when around/with another female of "statuesque" proportions? Does
    the attention generated by her cause or compel you to be more feminine
    or competitive toward both males and females at this gathering or
    situation?
    
    Ken 

    
    	Well, quite frankly, I would like a little less for the
    	basic reason that they tend to get in the way of my golf
    	swing!
    
      	          o    --
     		     
    		    <
                 .      .
                  \..../
    
    
    	Sharon

    And they jiggle when you jog . . .
    
    --bonnie

    also, top-heavy women are taken less seriously, by and large...if
    they're too busy looking at the bounce about your cleavage and the
    wiggle in your hips, they certainly won't take your statistics/circuit
    design/recommendation-for-the-future-corporate-takeover seriously...
    
    -Jody
    
    p.s.  I have never encountered this problem at DEC, but I have
    elsewhere
   

re: .3
    
>    	They seem to be the cause of as much concern for women in some
>    cases. I assume that this is because soem females equate breast
>    size with being feminine or female. I guess there must be more to
>    this than I see because the plastic surgeons make a fortune fixing
>    up sagging ones, adding size, adding them period.

I never equated breast size with being feminine...if that were true, then I 
had a little over 4 1/2 pounds of my "femininity" removed almost three years 
ago. ;-) I not only used to "jiggle" when I jogged...I pert near blacked both 
my eyes also! ;-)


>    	Just as a question: Do you women feel less female or feminine
>    when around/with another female of "statuesque" proportions? Does
>    the attention generated by her cause or compel you to be more feminine
>    or competitive toward both males and females at this gathering or
>    situation?
    
Honestly, I have never felt less of a woman, but that may be because I was so 
big most of my life. Most of the time I was quite uncomfortable with my breast 
size. I suffered needless pain physically and evoked many a stare from members 
of both sexes. I never understood the envy from some of the women I knew. >>   
"Gee Sunny...why didn't you leave some for the rest of us." well haha, how 
unamused I was by this type of remark. Some men had problems looking me in the  
eye and let me tell you, it's kinda hard trying to carry on a conversation 
with someone who can't raise their eyes above your chest level. ;-) 

                                      -sunny-                                  
 

    	I have definitely felt less female, feminine, attractive because
    my breasts are small.  For example, in college my two best friends
    were both "statuesque" women.  When we went to mixers, nobody would
    ask me to dance but my friends always had partners.
    
    	What really bugs me about it now, is having to buy padded bras
    because they're the only ones with small enough cups! *So* politically
    incorrect :-)!!
    
    Pilar.

    I used to feel selfconscious about my small breasts but gradually
    I've changed my attitude.  I have a friend who's 6' and her breasts
    are also tiny.  We've shared our feelings about this and now I'm
    less concerned.  Now I realize the advantages of smaller breasts
    when doing physically active sports and such.
    
    When I want "more up top" I use my padded bra.  As far as padded bras
    being pi, all I can say is PPPPFFFFFTTTTTT!!!!!! 
    
    One of the many benefits of aging is that I'm less likely to let
    someone else set my agenda for me.
    
    Nancy

    I'll tell ye the story o' Big Nellie Mae
    	She took up the golf in a serious way
    Wi' her shiny new clubs and her big leather bag
    	She could easily pass for Jack Nicklaus in drag.
                               
    Now Nellie wis handicapped more than the rest
    	Her stroke wis impaired by the size o' her chest
    Her over-development proved her downfall
    	When she swung, they both swung - and all missed the ball!
    
    Well Nellie decided that they hampered her stroke
    	So she tethered them up wi' a big piece o' rope
    But they didna like bein' tied up in a noose
    	And the very next stroke, both the rascals broke loose!
    
    [...and it goes on from there]
    
    					--the Corries

    Maggie,
    	Tha's too much!!   I'm giggling over here.  
     
    	I once decided that equality was equality and if they were going
    shirtless so would I.  So I did.  For about two hours, at high noon,
    in the high desert, in August.  What I learned was that people who
    always have covered portions of their bodies (me) have extremely
    sensitive skin when it somes to added sunlight for the first time.
    I burnt so badly that I had to stay topless at home for several
    days.  Let me tell you, even though the blisters gave me more cleaveage
    than I had ever hoped for, the agony was entirely out of proportion
    to the area affected.  I now go topless on select occasions, like
    showers, changing clothes etc.  Once I was topless during a complicated
    mountain rescue effort but that's another story.
    
    		Dondi

    I saw what inequality is imposed upon a teenage girl with extra
    extra large breasts.  My sister in law had this burden when she
    was fourteen!  She was ridiculed so severly that she quit high
    school!  She was unable to find clothes in stores designed for
    a girl of her size so she had to resort to buying men's extra
    large knit shirts.  She told me often of her dream of owning a
    party dress - there were none available.  I did sew her some
    blouses from time to time and when she got married I made her
    wedding gown.  She did eventually choose reduction surgery after
    doctors advised her that it might relieve her back/shoulder pain
    and reduce the stress on her heart.  She suffered greatly for
    the body she was born with.

    The last time I went out bra-shopping, I discovered that all the
    bras in the very ordinary 36-B were using the techniques that used
    to be reserved for large cups -- underwiring, shaping tricks,
    elastic insets -- to make the breasts appear smaller.  Even the
    "free-form" style I've been wearing for years changed so that now
    it compresses my breasts uncomfortably. 
    
    My daughter tells me that this is not my imagination; she showed
    me several ads in fashion magazines that advertise "gentle shaping
    for today's more natural look."  
    
    Apparently fashion designers have decided that the small breast is
    more feminine than other sizes, even though they all come on
    women.... 

    --bonnie

    	RE:  .14
    
    	Fashion trends have included breast sizes and shapes for
    	decades, haven't they?
    
    	If you see old movies from the 40's, the women have big shoulder
    	pads and almost totally flat chests -- (a good example of this
    	look was shown by Barbara Stanwyk, among others.)
    
    	In the 50's, breasts were shaped like torpedos, sort of.  Just
    	the other day, I saw some sort of special on cable about why
    	the breasts were so decidedly pointy and prominent in those
    	days (as explained by actress Mamie Van Doren.)  It seems that
    	the censors had strict rules about covering breasts up to a
    	woman's neck, so the movie-makers compensated for the lack of
    	cleavage by padding bras and developing pyramid-shaped breasts
    	on women.  
    
    	When I saw the clips from one of Mamie Van Doren's
    	movies at the time, I couldn't take my eyes off her chest. 
    	(I defy almost *anyone* to look at that movie without being in almost
    	total awe of how a woman could stand with so much flesh extended
    	forward that her center of gravity had to be about 10 inches
    	in front of her body, floating out in her personal space some-
    	where.)  I honestly can't imagine what the bras must have been
    	like back then to get that sort of effect.  
    
    	Jumping up to the late 80's, where we are now, we see shoulder
    	pads and small breasts in fashion again (much like the 40's.)
	Isn't it funny how fashion trends come back around again every
    	several decades or so...
        
    	Personally, I think larger_than_average breasts can be very
    	attractive (as can smaller_than_average breasts or average
    	breasts.)  I just hate to see ONE PARTICULAR TYPE of breast
    	become a solid part of fashion because it leaves so many women
    	in the position of disliking our own bodies (if we try to
    	follow fashion, that is) or in trying to reshape our bodies
    	into something that looks totally unnatural (like torpedo-shaped
    	breasts, for example.)
    
    	To me, that sort of thing is the most negative aspect of the
    	fashion business.

    I had a friend in music school who had to have her bras specially
    made.  She was an F triple-E cup, and she kept "Olga" in business.
    
    She was a very bright and capable woman, but it wasn't hard to notice
    that whenever people (especially men) met her for the first time,
    their eyes were riveted to her chest.  You could even see some of
    the more responsible enlightened ones try to force themselves not
    to stare.
    
    I think this affected her self-image very negatively over time.
    It overshadowed all of her other features, good and not so good.

    I also am smaller-than-average, and I finally got fed up with
    bras that didn't fit and switched almost exclusively to
    cotton camisoles.  One of the major department store chains
    carries an inexpensive line of these (under the
    impossible-to-find index entry of "combed cotton vests").
    A camisole/undershirt/vest covers me enough that I'm not
    going to offend (or interest) anyone should I react to a cold
    draft, and I hardly need the support of a bra.  It keeps me
    warmer in winter, and I finally understand why many men wear
    undershirts even in warm weather--it keeps me drier.  I've
    gotten so I can hardly stand the binding fit of a bra!

    -- Linda

    	When I was in High School, my best friend went through a breast-
    	development phase between 14 and 15 years old that left her
    	with a reasonably thin body and extremely large breasts.
    
    	She was a beautiful dresser (and extremely attractive in a very
    	natural way) and wore clothes that down-played the size of her
    	breasts in a modest way.
    
    	All in all, I thought she was beautiful (and she still is, by
    	the way!)
    
    	However, there were actually people (high school boys and girls)
    	who used to say to me, "I don't like Marie."  When I asked why,
    	they would say, "I just don't like people who have such big
    	breasts."
    
    	It used to enfuriate me!!  How could anyone not like someone
    	for having either large or small breasts..?  It makes absolutely
    	no sense to me at all.

    Even my mother wears camisoles most of the time.  I only wear bras
    when protocol requires them - the same situations as when I have
    to wear heeled shoes: very seldom.  The only problem I have with
    this is that my breasts, like my mother's, are very lop-sided, so
    I used to wear padded bras all the time to camouflage the difference
    in size.  I'm just as glad I do not have heavy breasts, so that
    I do not have to wear a lot of support for comfort - too hot in
    this kind of weather!

    Reproduced below is the text of a request from the Coalition for Topfree
    Equality to the Monroe County (New York) legislature and the Rochester
    city council.  (Reprinted from _Bare_in_Mind_ Volume 16, Number 6 (June
    1988), where it was reprinted from the _Naturist_Rochester_Newsletter_,
    May 1988.)

    A bit of history:

    On June 21, 1986, a group of Rochester naturists and feminists held a
    topfree picnic to protest the New York law making toplessness illegal.
    The police were notified in advance, and seven of the women chose to be
    arrested to test the constitutionality of the law.

    Unfortunately, the judge ruled that the women's topfreeness in this
    case was an act of constitutionally protected symbolic speech.  He
    therefore acquitted the women without considering the law itself.
    Since the women had been acquitted, they could not appeal the ruling
    and subject the law to constitutional scrutiny.

    However, the affair apparently did have the practical merit of
    according topfreeness a level of acceptability in the Rochester area.
    Last summer the same groups held a topfree picnic in a county park with
    no confrontations or problems.

    	-Neil
    
    =======================================================================

    We are writing to request that June 21 be designated Topfree Equality
    Day in Rochester.  The day will be devoted to making more people aware
    of the importance of topfree equality for women.

    New York State law now requires women, but not men, to cover their
    chests in public (except when performing or nursing a baby).  Thus, a
    woman may expose her breasts to sell drinks to men in a topless bar but
    may not enjoy the sun and water topfree with her family and friends at
    a picnic on the beach.

    Requiring women to cover their breasts conveys the message that women's
    breasts must be hidden from view, that they are dirty or obscene.
    Little girls must cover up while boys can play freely.  Requiring that
    breasts be concealed and then using them in advertising to sell
    products and in pornography turns breasts into sex objects.  By denying
    people the sight of the great variety of breasts in normal nonsexual
    situations, the image of breasts that people have is unrealistic.  Many
    women grow up with the image of Barbie Doll breasts.  Consequently,
    they are unhappy with their breasts and develop poorer body
    self-concepts than men.  No wonder breast augmentation is the leading
    cosmetic surgery in the U.S. today.

    Sometimes the law requiring women to conceal their breasts is wrongly
    justified as being a simple non-discriminatory requirement that all sex
    organs be covered.  But breasts are not sex organs; they are not
    essential to reproduction.  Ironically, requiring that breasts be kept
    covered handicaps their real function.  The only reason they are
    thought of as sex organs is because some men find them sexually
    enticing.  Requiring women to cover their bodies because of men's lust
    is an unjust imposition.  As people become used to seeing topfree women
    on beaches, in parks, and gardening in their yards at home, the breast
    fetish will gradually be reduced and men and women will both gain a
    healthier perspective on women and their bodies.  Topfree women are now
    socially acceptable throughout Europe and in some parts of this
    country.

    The issue of topfree equality is not trivial.  The imposition on women
    is great, the inconvenience real, the stigma pernicious.  Fifty years
    ago in New York State men were required to cover their chests in
    public.  They rebelled and the laws were changed.  Topfree equality for
    all is long overdue.

    June 21 is the anniversary of the Topfree Seven action in 1986 which
    gained national attention and last summer's topfree picnic at Genesee
    Valley Park where 25 topfree women and their friends canoed on the
    river, played frisbee and softball and picnicked without any
    harassment.

    We urge you to declare June 21 Topfree Equality Day in Rochester -- a
    day dedicated to educating people on the subject and changing New York
    State's discriminatory, damaging, and demeaning Exposure of a Person
    law.

			- Coalition for Topfree Equality

    RE:14
    
    Bonnie,
    
        I too have noticed that all or nearly all the bras I have to
    select from come with underwires or padding of some sort.  I figured
    it had something to do with the fact that more and more women are
    having children and ultimately need extra support and shaping as
    a result of pregnancy.
    
    
    Jodi-
    
    

    Re .17
    
    Which department store do you find those camisoles at?  I'm rather
    small and find it almost impossible to find a bra that fits.  Once,
    when I asked a saleswoman if they carried my bra size, she told
    me to try the children's department.  Since I was 22 at the time,
    I didn't find that comment too amusing.

    To tie these two subjects in together...
    
    I would love to have the freedom to swim without a top on, because
    I find women's bathing suits are uncomfortable - they bind without
    supporting.  But other than that, while I support the cause, wouldn't
    do me any good.  To all those women who say they don't wear bras,
    I envy you.  Even an hour in an upright position without a bra makes
    me very uncomfortable, and in 2 hours I'm in pain.
    
    So...who designs bras?  All I can say is it is obviously women...or
    at least, not women of my proportions.  I have yet to find a
    comfortable bra, but I am sure that such a thing is *possible*.
    Why doesn't it exist?  (If I could I would just bag the things
    entirely.  I am not the slightest bit worried about social
    protocol- just like I never wear stockings or high heels.)
    
    Diana
      !
    

    That was supposed to be "obviously *not* women"...
    
    Rented fingers.
    
    Diana

re: camisoles

	I suggest Fruit-of-the-Loom "athletic tops", Men's size Small.
	You can buy them anywhere, and they are enormously cheaper than 
	tank tops or camisoles made for women.  If you can live without 
	little lace trims and such, it's a bargain.

	If you want cotton camisoles, I think you can get them from the 
	Sears catalog (in the 'sensible' matronly underwear department).
	I've also seen them in Woolworth's, of all places.  You can 
	usually find them more easily in the fall/winter, for some 
	reason.

    
    I should imagine you could also get them at Filene's...
    I have seen them at the basement store in Burlington, but as
    with everything there--not on a regular basis.  They were,
    I think, Calvin Klein, or Jockey brand...
    
    

    re:23
    Diana...
    
    I don't know your location, but if have the opportunity to go to
    the Maine Mall in South Portland, Maine (approx. 115 mi N of Boston)
    there is an excellent ladies' wear shop called 'Lady Grace' . I
    have friends who have "special problems" in size, shape, removal
    and though the shop is a bit higher priced, the quality, personal
    service (fitting, attitude) are comendable. I'm sure that there
    are others that can help you locally, at least, get you fitted
    properly. You shouldn't have to suffer in this "enlightened" day
    and age.
    
    Ken

    Bras are very difficult to design, because I once read that the
    design engineers discovered that bras have to stretch/move/alter
    shape over 7000 times a day...
    
    I used to have difficulty finding bras that fit me well
    when I had (key word here - *HAD*) a 45" chest.  I'd have to go
    to the larger size racks where the darn things all stood up by
    themselves due to some solid internal powernet construct of
    cantilevered elastic devices....and even then comfort was hardly
    an option...
    
    Even now I can't go into Victoria's Secret or any lingerie places
    (except one or two...) that will stock anything above a 36B or 34C
    in a variety of styles...
    
    However, Filenes has a lovely quantity of (fairly expensive) attractive
    bras in many styles and sizes....so all is not lost.
    
    -Jody
    

    sorry...I meant to say the lingerie shops WON'T stock anything
    larger...and that confuses me...statistics also show that 1/4 to
    1/3 of all women in the US are size 16 and over....
    
    -Jody
    

    Re .18, Suzanne, the reason those girls said they didn't like the
    girl with the slim body and big breasts is because they were envious
    of how easy it was for her to attract boys.  It may not be right,
    but it is understandable if you think about it.  If one girl is
    going to get a large proportion of guys interested in her for
    such a shallow reason other girls are bound to resent it.

    As far as camisoles go, "Victoria's Secret" sells plain, white cotton
    camisoles in women's sizes, L,M,S & P, for reasonable prices.  The
    men's size small t-shirts would hang on me and be larger than my
    outside clothes!  
    
    I haven't worn a bra for a few years, and I agree they feel horrible
    on, like some kind of harness or something.  I am glad for comfort's
    sake that I don't need a bra, but there are times I have wished
    I had large breasts just because it is a quick, easy way to get
    the attention of an attractive male! :-)  So many men seem to value
    that quality so much in a woman, and it's something I just don't
    have to offer.  (Big tits, that is.  Yes, unfortunately, growing
    up in America with small ones does leave some bitterness sometimes.)
    Mostly, I would just like to be average sized -34B?- so that I wouldn't
    be drooled over by creeps like women with large breasts have to
    put up, but so I wouldn't always feel that the fact that I have
    small breasts is a negative aspect to my overall appearance.  It's
    like when you have small breasts, men are attracted to you *inspite
    of the fact* not because of it, and it makes you feel bad sometimes.
    
    Lorna
    

Can anyone explain to me the reasons for wearing a bra other then support? Why
wear a bra when you can wear a undershirt/camisole/*?  For fashion? I don't
understand that. 

How is over developed breasts any different then overdeveloped anything else? 

How is a woman 'letting it all hang out' different from a man 'letting it all
hang out'?  How is this different from nudism in general?

Doesn't this basically boil down to hiding them most of the time so that when
they are shown off it's sexy? 

JMB

	Jim, think of yourself wearing one of those nylon men's swim trunks
	that have no lining. You know the ones, where your penis shows
	quite clearly. Then think about how uncomfortable you might feel
	if every woman you passed stared at your crotch. That's why a lot
	of women wear bras in public. 
	
	I wear bras sometimes and mostly for that reason. liesl

    
    I used to be able to make my ex livid by referring to her
    bras as 'double barrelled slingshots'...
    
    Of course I wouldn't dare say such a thing today -;

    there's another thing bra's often do, based on their
    construction/material, that camisoles don't...they prevent those
    inevitable "results of a cold breeze" from showing up (yes, for
    some reason being seen with your "headlights on" (as someone I knew
    so quaintly referred to it) is thought to be "naughty" in public).
    Thicker bras (padded), or bras made out of stiffer material, are
    less likely to let erect nipples show.  I mean, people can't
    consciously control something like that (men OR women), and yet
    some people equate them with arousal (even if you were just getting
    something out of the fridge or something)...sheesh.  
    
    in re: double barrelled slingshots ... not as bad as "over the shoulder
    boulder holder" which I heard in high school
    
    -Jody
    

    re: .34  Over the shoulder boulder holder - brings back memories
    of high school too.  there are so many phrases and I have almost
    heard them all.
    
    re: .4 Sharon, aren;t they a b*tch sometimes ??  be it golf clubs
    or softball bats.
    
    
    But now manufacturers of clothing are realizing big busted women
    want to dress in other things besides mens large shirts.  At my
    high school prom (4 years ago) I was able to get the dress I had
    always dreamed of - an off the shoulder Red taffata (sp) Mae West
    design and being a 42DD even at 17 was very difficult.
    
    I guess we just have to make good with what we have, whether it
    be sm, med, or lg !!!!!  
    
    
    signed me,
    
    Major Hooters

    The earliest reference I ever heard to "double-barrelled slingshot"
    was on, of all things, THE BEVERLY HILLBILLIES, when Miss Hathaway
    bought a bra for Ellie Mae (of course, it makes you wonder what
    planet Ellie Mae was from that she could be so, ah, solid without
    wearing a bra).
    
    --- jerry

    My father used to refer to them as "udder cups".  He also refered
    to jockey shorts as "scrotum chokers".  Life can be very linguistally
    colorful in West Virginia.
    
    		Dondi

    from Girl Scout camp (at least the one I went to!):
    
    bra - boob sling
    deoderant - pit stop
    tampon - pluggie

    getting off the subject I know...but one more from Girl Scout
    camp
    
    Kotex - mouse mattresses
    
    maybe we should start a different note for this one :-)
    
    Bonnie

    What I missed by not going to camp!
    

Yeah this is off the subject but I just laugh at some of the nicknames
    I have heard in the past for well endowed women:
    
    Major Hooters
    Golden Yahoos
    Bodacious Ta-Ta's  (from An Officer and a Gentleman)
    Love Mounds
    Pillows of lust
    Yabows                                              
    
    
    Can you beleive men and I have heard them, still use some of these
    phrases.  Gues all we can do is come up with a few of our own for
    them.
    
    
    TAG

    Dear Friends,
    
    Can we call a halt to the listing of epithets insulting women of
    a particular body shape?  It was a real downer to sign in and read
    these this morning.
    
    Some of your readers suffered real *pain* when these epithets were
    applied to them while growing up.  Some may still feel the pain.
    These are *insults* and have no place in Womannotes.
    
    I would prefer to have these notes deleted by their authors. 
    
    Pat

re .22

    Sorry for the delay--we moved to a new office building this
    weekend and it's been...interesting.  The department store
    where I buy my "combed cotton vests," as they call them, is
    J.C. Penney's.  I've *only* found these in the catalog, never
    in the store.  They are indeed similar to men's A-style
    undershirts, but sized somewhat smaller, and the straps are
    narrower, and I think similarly priced.  I have this feeling
    that Penney's is only in the MidWest; if you'd like, I can
    send you the appropriate catalog page and ordering info.
    Contact me by mail if you're interested, or DTN 452-3437. 

re .31

    There are several reasons why I might wear a bra rather than
    a camisole/undershirt/vest/whatever:

	o The top button on some of my (old) blouses is at or
	  below the top of the camisole.  Until those blouses
	  wear out...

	o It's a miserably hot day and I want to wear a t-shirt
	  and shorts.  Although I, in particular, can probably get
	  by wearing a dark-colored t-shirt, some women want more
	  coverage/support.  An undershirt *and* a t-shirt is grim.

	o I want to wear something sexy and lowcut for a special
          date with my SO.  Sometimes I might not wear anything
          under it...but I also like the aesthetic and sexy
          appearance of cleavage, and an underwired or "push-up"
          bra gives me that (well, nearly). 

	o This is corny--since I wear bras so rarely, they have
	  for me attained the status of "exotic" lingerie.  And I
	  get a real kick out of occasionally wearing something
	  "exotic" under my boring old everyday work garb, when
	  no one else can tell...

    When I was in high school I worried about whether the boys
    would find me less attractive because I was "flat-chested."
    Several years later, I'd had the fortune of having several
    lovers comment agreeably on my shape, firmness, etc.  I
    finally realized it was silly for me to be convinced I was
    too small, and that if I persisted in moaning over my size I
    would probably convince a lover who hadn't noticed the "lack"
    initially.  So, no, *now* I don't feel like a large-busted
    women has an "advantage" or whatever, but I did once.  I
    don't know how many other teenagers manage to out-grow this. 

    Back a bit more on-track:  top-free equality sounds like a
    good idea to me.  But I think I'd have a real hard time
    shedding my shirt and inhibitions in public.  I've never
    traveled outside the U.S.--it might be easier after, say,
    lazing on a beach in Brazil, where many women are topless.
    (I'm told that one can always spot American men on such
    beaches--they're the ones who're drooling!)

    -- Linda

    Re .44: Please accept my apology for any unpleasantness; reply duly
    scragged. (Personally, I find it rather encouraging to hear the
    comments that used to make me cringe, as it reminds me that I've
    matured enough to deal with them; but who am I to tell you what should
    or shouldn't cause you pain...) 
    
    -b

    
    
    I thought I was the only one that was uncomfortable with the references
    to women with large breasts. - thanks Pat.
    
    Since I don't wear a bra and haven't for many years (at least 10)
    I don't feel that some of the references have anything to do with
    me - BUT many of my close friends are larger than me and some do
    wear bras and do not think it is either fun, sexy or even pleasant.
    
    _peggy
    
    		(-)
    		 |
    
    			I prefer to wear as little as possible except
    			in cold weather then I pile on layers.
    
    

    For those wondering why some of us prefer wearing bras.  As
    uncomfortable as bras can sometimes be, I'm much more uncomfortable
    going without one for any length of time--especially when I'm pregnant
    (as I am now) and especially in the hot weather.  (I get these 
    EMBARRASSING sweat lines...)

    In re wearing bras...I tried exactly once not wearing a bra at
    work...I had a slip on..and was extremely uncomfortable with
    the amount of bounce. I don't plan to ever do it again.
    
    Bonnie

Re. 0

	Isn't it funny how people here have jumped off the track
	and talked about what they wanted to, not the original 
	question? :-)

Re. Big Breast Debate (A male's view)

	Big breasts are sort of like big muscles.  We are socialized
	to like big breasts (as men) just as women are socialized to
	like big muscles.  Does that mean that *you* like big muscles
	(read breasts, if you're male)?  Maybe, maybe not.  Personally
	I've always liked small pert breasts.  But recently I became
	involved with someone on the other end of the spectrum.  I
	found that, since I was attracted to her, I was attracted to
	her body.  But, as someone already mentioned, someone pointing
	out defects that they see in their body often has a self-fulfilling
	prophacy effect.  *Love* your body!  There will always be those
	who agree and those who don't, but you'll be happier if you
	consider *your* opinion the most important.

Re. Bra Debate

	Above mentioned SO points out that long periods in a vertical
	position without support can have painful effects.

Re. Topless in Public Debate (is it really a debate?)

	I like the discussions going on in the NATURISM notes file.

What's the difference between letting men "hang it out" and women?

Admittedly they are different parts of the anatomy, but if you're going to
let one, why not the other?

JMB

    Jim, give us a break.  
    
    						=maggie

    RE .27
    
    Diana there is also a Lady Grace in Lowell, where almost all the
    women in my family shop at one time or another....Seems we all start
    off with training bras at 36C and just keep on going.  They have
    all sorts of beautiful lingerie for 'Robust' women, camisoles, bathing
    suits, backless and strapless bras, for wearing those impossible
    outfits that you always thought you would never be able to do. 
    I love the place.  If you are close enough to drive there send me
    a note at SOCIAL::GRYNIEWICZ.
    
    
    TammyG

    re: .54
    
    There's also a Lady Grace in downtown Nashua.
    
    --bonnie

    Yeah, but the only place I feel safe going top-free is at the Michigan
    Womyn's Music Festival.
    
    So as long as men view breasts as some big turn on, I'll keep my
    shirt on, thank you.
    
    Laura

Re: .56

    Some years  ago  I was hiking with a woman I didn't know very well
    in  the  White mountains in summer. Almost nobody (male or female)
    was  wearing  shirts.  Holly  took  off her shirt, but wasn't very
    comfortable about it (but she was less comfortable with the heat.)
    Whenever  we  met  people on the trail she tried to hide behind me
    without  "coming on" to me. It didn't seem to matter if the people
    we  met  were  men  or  women,  it  just  bothered  her. It was an
    interesting  ettiquete  problem, and we didn't have a copy of Miss
    Manners  with us. I think we did OK, but it took me a while to see
    what  was  going on, as I at first I was carefully not standing in
    front  of  her  so she could talk to the others too. (That was our
    second or third date, we ended up living together for 3 years, and
    it was a while before she really explained what was going on.)

--David

    
    		For all the woman out there who are really conscious
    of their small breasts....there are men out there that actually
    prefer small breasts. I am one of them. My sisters have small ones
    and us boys always would kid them about how small they were. Now
    I tell them that they are ok. I even married a woman with small
    breast and I sure do like 'em. So all you small breasted woman out there....
    Be proud of what little you have!
    
    Signed,
    The Small Breast Lover
                          

    Re: .58
    
    Thank you for your insightful comments.  "What little you have",
    indeed.

    RE: .57
    
    Ditto.

          
    Excuse me again for being a late-comer but I really feel I must
    make two statements (especially in light of that last *real bad
    taste in my mouth comment - ie; * little * * .57)  I would like
    to enter them because I'm very disappointed that no one else has
    mentioned anything on this level (especially the men) in this note.

    1.)Anyone with *real* values knows that the *true* value of an 
    individual is a composite of *many* things.  This composite which
    I will call "essence" will contain (*should* contain) elements
    of intellect, spirituallity, and emotional balance as well as any
    physical attributes.  This "essence" may have large, small, one, two
    or no breasts at all. Being just one small part of the essence
    one's breasts has little to do with its (essence) total worth  
    ie; good, bad or indifferent.                             
                  
    How many remember the trend to look like Amelia Earheart (who was
    blessed with small breasts.  Mind your if she had large breasts
    she would have been blessed with large breasts).  This trend
    was not the result of some b*nghole fasion designer but because
    Amelia was a woman of verve and courage that few *men* had, let 
    alone women!  Who would not want to emulate this woman whose spirit
    by itself could sweep you of your feet (reminds me of Cory!).  But
    I digress.  I hope you can see the various statements I'm trying
    to make here.
    
    2.)As to the orignal topic women should be free to wear or not wear
       what they want.  The sooner they can the sooner we get rid
       of some of these oppressive mores from who knows what century.
                                 
     
    

    re: .61
    
    I don't understand your disappointment, Luis.  First, David's
    reply (.57) didn't mention anything about breast size.  Also,
    I've seen nothing that indicates that people *don't* view others
    as a composite.  I think a couple of men have indicated that
    they don't subscribe to the clich�d American-male-big-breast-fetish,
    (or any breast fetish at all, for that matter), but I fail to
    see how that devalues the notion of women/people composite.
    
    Beyond that, while I happen personally to agree with most of what
    you say, it seems to me that the language you're using is pretty
    absolute and judgemental.  Do you really mean to imply that 
    anyone who doesn't agree with your "true values" has no "real"
    values?  As I say, I happen to share many of your values, but
    it strikes me that neither of us has a lock on "true" (i.e. "best")
    values for everyone else.
    
    Steve
    

    
    1.) First I must apologize for my stupidity.
        I meant note .58 not .57.
    
    2.) Yes Steve, you are right in that I tend to be sometimes too
        overbearing in my opinions.  I try to be very open minded but
        when other people aren't I have a hard time dealing with it.
        Please understand that I *do* believe everyone is entitled
        to their opinions (and I say this with tongue in cheek) but
        why can't they all be like mine??
    Most apologetically 
    
    Luis

    Or, to put it more concisely:
    
    "Everyone has a right to my opinion."
    
    --- jerry

    re: .63
    
    �   . . .opinions (and I say this with tongue in cheek). . .
    �   why can't they all be like mine??
    
    Y'know, I've often wondered the same thing, especially since
    I'm just *know* that mine are "right". . .  :-}  Thanx for 
    the apology; in my book 'tis a mark of grace�.
    
    Steve
    
    � considering the number of apologies I've had to make (and, no
      doubt have yet to make), one could argue with effect that this
      is pure ego defense. . .

    This is being posted anonymously for a member of our community.  If
    you'd like to send mail to him, please send it to me and I will
    forward it.
    
    -Jody
    
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------   
 I loved all of the replies but this is inspired by 61.0 (53.60).

 The author of .0 remarked that guys can go topless without thinking
 about it.  Well not so!  I dreaded gym in school because one team
 would be "skins".  Topless, just my luck!  The beach I was never 
 seen without a polo shirt.   Why the comment, back then I was 5'11"
 and 200 pounds (not fat, just huge).  Oh yes a bust line 4 inches
 larger than chest.  Yes by some luck I had better breast development
 than the girls I knew!  You bet, a 34C cross your heart.  No topless
 is not for me, you can imagine the comments I lived with, hell I was
 once invited to a wet teeshirt contest.  For some activities I had 
 to restrain them, the bouncing really did hurt.  A bra was the 
 suggestion of a girlfriend who fully understood the pain and
 witnessed the rawness that resulted.  It was an improvement over
 tape (hairy chest, ouch).  It certainly made horseback riding more
 pleasant, but it still had to be hidden.  For those large breasted
 ladies out there I know what you feel.  Mens suits don't fit well
 when your top heavy.  This is not terribly common in men but it's 
 not rare either.

           <<< MOIRA::SYS$SPECIFIC:[NOTES$LIBRARY]NATURISM.NOTE;4 >>>
                                 -< Naturism >-
================================================================================
Note 59.4               Topfree Equality Day in Rochester                 4 of 4
MOIRA::FAIMAN "light upon the figured leaf"          33 lines   5-APR-1989 16:09
                  -< Fourth Annual Topfree Picnic, June 24th >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Reprinted from _Bare in Mind_, volume 17 number 4 (April 1989):

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

		       FOURTH ANNUAL TOPFREE PICNIC
                       SCHEDULED FOR JUNE 24, 1989

    The Fourth Annual Topfree Equality Picnic will be held Saturday, June
    24th, at 11 a.m. on Durand-Eastman Beach in Rochester, New York.  The
    event is sponsored by the Coalition for Topfree Equality with active
    support from Naturist Rochester.

    The first year's picnic received widespread national publicity,
    including an appearance on the Donahue program, after seven women were
    arrested for removing their shirts in a public park.  The women were
    acquitted on free speech grounds, but the county is appealing the
    decision.  The second picnic involved 25 women; the third picnic
    involved over 40 women.  There were neither arrests nor harassment
    during the last two picnics.  The women and their male supporters had
    enjoyable picnics in public parks with volleyball, softball, Frisbee
    and great food.

    This year's picnic will be on a sandy beach on Lake Ontario.  Another
    great picnic is expected.  Rain date is Sunday, June 25th.

    Those of you too far from Rochester to participate directly are
    encouraged to coordinate Topfree events in your own area.  It would be
    very effective if this became a nationwide activity.  Make your plans
    now.

    For further information and ideas on how you can help, please contact
    Mary Lou Schloss at Naturist Rochester, 237 Vassar St., Rochester, NY
    14607, or call her at (716)244-1219.