Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    Ellen,
    
    I'll have to agree with you on this one.  To me the term Lady shows
    more respect.  Someone can be a woman and be nothing of a Lady.
    Without meaning to cause any type of an uproar, a Lady is more 
    polished than just being a woman.  
    
    -Michelle-
    

    Even though I am fairly certain that most people who know me *would*
    (if questioned) consider me to be "a woman of refinement and good
    manners" (most of the time!), I have to say that I agree with the
    neighbor.  I would do not care for that particular usage of "lady"
    described, where a man says something such as "that was a great
    meal, lady".  That usage *does* hold negative connotations for me
    because to me that usage of lady is similar to "baby" or "dear"
    or "darling" or "honey" or "tootsie" wherein a macho man thinks
    of the woman as some sort of sex object.  I prefer being called
    by my first name.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    it may be trite, but isn't the old saying - its not what you say
    its how you say it.
    
    bob

	Since my DCL prompt is Lady> I guess I better get in here and
	vote. 

	I like the term lady, I was born a woman, I can become a lady.
	Besides, (call me old fashioned, call me over the hill (sic))
	I'm used to the term lady as an endearment. If a man was refering to
	me as "his lady" I'd assume he was saying with a positive bent.
	It sounds like your friend's SO is doing the same. I mean really,
	some people even use nicknames like "stinky" to show fondness for
	another. liesl, Lady of NOETIC.

    Definitely a sensitive area, here. Didn't we get into this in V1?
    Oh, well - it makes for some lovely arguments.

    In general, I'd say that if someone you care about uses a term that you
    find objectionable, it seems reasonable to ask him to change it;
    however, it also seems reasonable to accept his explanation of what he
    means by it, and to take it as it is intended. 
    
    Now, if a stranger on the street says, "Hey, lady!" it has a different
    meaning (to me) than if someone I care about says it. If the same
    stranger says, "Hey, woman!" I think I'd find it even more offensive;
    at least "lady," even if said sarcastically, is an attempt at a
    title. "Hey, woman!" sounds like someone addressing the serving
    wench.
    
    To take a slightly different tack, if someone says "Act like a lady,"
    that *really* burns me, as it sounds like the speaker is telling me
    that his/her standards are higher than - rather than simply different
    from - my own. But "Act like a woman!" is a perfectly reasonable
    injunction (assuming it is intended to mean, "Act like a responsible,
    self-respecting human being," which is also what I would prefer to
    think "Act like a man" means). 
    
    So, girlie, whaddya think of that? :-)
    
    -b

    I agree that "lady" would be a term of endearment in this case.
    It would also depend on how it was said.  A former SO would call
    me "lady" and I knew it was his way expressing he cared....woman
    just wouldn't fit and, with all that's been said, written and debated
    about the term "girl".............
    
    P.
    

    Whatever you *gals* decide is fine with me!
    

    In general I don't like being referred to as a lady -- the
    inaccuracy of it boggles the mind -- but this particular mode
    of address doesn't bother me.
    
    --bonnie, the unrefined feisty bitch

    I think that as a noun, a "woman" is simply a female person who is
    no longer a child, while a "lady" is a "woman of refinement...". 
    
    However, as a form of address, "lady" is distinctly respectful (I
    imagine the auto mechanic talking down to the housewife who can't
    comprehend a carburetor -- "Look lady, would you make up your
    mind?"), while "woman" is extremely insulting ("Knock it off,
    woman." 
    
    Of course, with a proper name after it, "lady" designates a member
    of the British nobility.
    
    	-Neil

    Connotations are so much fun.  What do they mean to me?
    
    A lady is a courteous woman, with connotations of refinement or
    gentility.  If anything, it connotes a discerning intellect, as
    befits someone of good taste.  A woman is an adult female.
    
    When I was little, my mother told me to use "woman" as the generic
    ("That lady over there" became "That woman over there") because
    not all women were ladies.  I haven't always done that, speech patterns
    being difficult to change, but I almost always think of that when
    I say "lady."

oddly enough, I get called 'babe', 'dear'... etc by women a lot more then I ever
address women in that manner (having been taught the error of my ways :-)).

Should I be offended? :-)

JMB 

    DArn Jim, that was MY question.....
    
    Honestly,  Mel calls me "hon" or "babe" or "sweety" etc, and I her.
    
    I see nothing wrong with it.
    
    I think someone said it already, about how you say it.
    
    I DO have a problem with this "lady" stuff though.
    
    I am a security officer, when a woman enters/leaves the facility
    I say things to the extent of "Have a nice day maam", or "Do you
    need some assistance Maam".  
    
    Now, I see that a few of you do notlike the name "maam", but how 
    would you react to something like, "Have a nice day lady", or "do 
    you need any assistance woman?" 
    
    I tend to think that these sound awful rude, and if I WERE a woman
    I would be offended by those.  
        
    Jes wonderin'.
    

    I have to agree with most of the folks here. Whether "lady" is
    perceived as positive or negative depends a lot on context and
    intent. It seems clear to me that your friend's SO's intent is
    respectful, though personally speaking, I find the use of it
    rather awkward-sounding (though if he said "milady" instead, it
    would sound perfectly natural).
    
    Still, if she is uncomfortable with it, that's her perogative,
    and she would not be out of line asking him to stop using it.
    If she doesn't want to hurt his feelings, she could always tell
    him that she finds such an address too formal, much in the same
    way that I feel uncomfortable when people refer to me as "Mr.
    Boyajian" rather than "Jerry".
    
    --- jerry

    re .14 "milady" ??? Only place I ever encountered that was
    in 'The Three Musketeers'.
    
    

    I would rather be called by my name.  But in terms of the question
    asked, any sentance that starts "Look, lady..." is going to push
    my buttons.  It's entirely the context, the formality of the occasion
    and the delivery that counts with me.  
    
    		Dondi

As with Bonnie RS, while lady isn't me, it might be you. I don't use either
'lady' or 'gentleman' with people I am close to. Sounds too formal.
	Mez

	RE: .13
	How do you greet the men?  Why don't you just
	say "Have a nice day.", without any gender reference?

	RE: the topic

        If it bothers your friend it bothers her, so she'd better
        tell her SO.  You can't build a relationship if everytime he
        casually uses "lady" you cringe.  

        Personally, I'll accept just about anything when it is used
        as a term of endearment. However, I don't like being
        referred to as woman or lady. You might as well use "hey
        you!" if you have to use anything.  I am "a woman" over
        being "a lady".  To me "a woman" is a muture adult female.
        "A lady" carries a lot of baggage with her, she has to be
        nice all the time, she probably lets men rule her life.  "A
        lady" (to me) connotes a shallow personality where rules and
        regulations mean more than the people involved. 

        "A lady" crosses her legs (or should I say limbs?) when she
        sits - and then cuts off her circulation to them.   A woman
        sits comfortably and even puts her feet up if she'd like. 
	
	...Karen

	(an intelligent, caring and usually polite woman :-))

    Ideally, I like to be called by my first name, but everyone out
    there doesn't know what it is and I don't were a big name tag sooooo
    I say "call me anything except late for meals". :-)
    
    Seriously, I work in retail and have been called Mame, lady, hey
    you, you hoo, girl and girlie. When I am in a situation like that
    I respond to all of them, I cannot and will not try to train the
    public to my preferences. Most of these people will never interact
    with me again, the ones that are regular customers have learned
    my name and address me by name.
    
    There is a difference in being called a lady and being called lady.
    With language evolving the way it does around common usage, unless
    we start in our elementary schools teaching the young, the future
    generations of females are going to have a lot more to be concerned
    about than whether they are called women or ladys. 

    
    If dealing with strangers I prefer to be called Miss or Ms. rather
    than Ma'am.  I always think of Ma'am as an older woman. 
    
    How do you feel about these terms?

Etiquette note, without political significance:

"Ma'am" is always a correct mode of address for a woman whom one does not 
know.  You can properly call the Queen of England "Ma'am".

"Sir" is always a correct mode of address for a man whom one does not know.

English is short on honorifics, and has borrowed its from French (madame 
et monsieur -- my lady and my lord).  At one time these were only 
applicable to persons of nobility, but in these democratic times 
everyone is entitled to them.

Note the degeneration of the perfectly respectable title "Madam" into 
meaning the keeper of a brothel (so that one is safest using the more 
common contraction, "Ma'am").  It is also interesting to note how other 
perfectly respected titles of courtesy such as "Mistress" and its 
contraction and abbreviation "Mrs." have come to signify women in 
various states of sexual servitude to men, rather than simply mature 
female members of society.  The terms "Sir" and "Mister" do not seem to 
have been subject to these indignities.

The practice of calling women and men "ladies and gentlemen" is also a 
gesture of democratic inclusion in the privileges of nobility.  It is 
interesting that much of the controvery about the use of the term "lady" 
occurs because its connotations have become trivial and demeaning.
The term no longer implies a woman of social significance, grace, and
power -- merely someone whose sensibilities will be offended by vulgar
language and who crosses her legs decorously. She is someone who could 
never change a flat tire herself. The idea of "gentlemen" has not been
subject to the same trivialization. It still connotes generosity of
spirit and restrained strength -- after all, he is the one who will
remove his jacket and change the tire for the lady.

I find it interesting that our language continues to take away words 
that allow the idea of dignity, power, and womanhood to reside in the 
same concept.

[Maybe there was some political significance to that after all.]

    Just to clarify some points::::
    
    First, Matt uses the term "lady" as a form of endearment.
    
    Second, Anne did talk with him about her feelings - I can't imagine
    her NOT doing so.  She didn't indicate his response so I can't offer
    that piece of info.
    
    Third, on my part, I did not mean that "woman" connotes a cold person,
    but rather that the word "woman" is a cold word to me - one without
    life.  I think someone else said it - a female - nothing more.
    
    This has been interesting.  I agree that if it bothers her, then
    that is fine and she should act on that.  This wasn't meant as a
    way to confirm either her or my feelings - just a way to find out
    how others feel.
    
    Thanks -- Ellen

    
    
    Back in V1 I entered a note entitled "Don't call me Girl" and my
    feelings have not changed but gotten stronger about it.
    
    I perfer people to use my first name and not honey, babe, sweetie
    or whatever when addressing me NO MATTER what the circumstance.
    I happen to really like my name and  like to hear others (especially
    people I really care about) say it.  The only exceptions are my
    son and daughter - they call me Mom or Mommy or sometimes Ma.
    
    It maybe from the fact that a woman is seen by SOME men as
    interchangeable with any other woman so first names are not used
    but terms that can apply to another are used.  Now not all men think
    this way but I have met enough to be wary of men who do not use
    my first name.
    
    _peggy
    
    		(-)
    		 |
    
    			My family name came from my father,
    			My first name is who I am,
    			If you want to know me better
    			When you talk to me use my name.
    
    

    re: .24
    
    That's very true, Peggy, but on the other hand it's natural to
    want to have a special name for a person who's special in your
    life. You don't always want to call him or her by the same name
    everybody else uses because you aren't "everybody else."  It
    indicates the intimicy of the relationship, not the identity of
    the person being addressed. 
    
    Some people invent cute names, or give new meanings to ordinarily
    derogatory ones.  [A friend calls her very skinny husband "Fatso"
    when nobody's listening...]   Others make use of the existing
    ones like lady, babe, honey.  You have to know the people involved
    to know whether the woman in question is being belittled. 
    
    But that doubles the insult of having a stranger refer to you as
    "honey" or "Look, lady," or whatever.  It's an intimacy they're
    not entitled to. 

    --bonnie

    RE: .24
    
    Peggy, your preference to having your first named used is a valid
    one for you.
    
    That works fine for people who, indeed, know your name *is*
    Peggy Leedberg.
    
    For those who do not know you at all, how do you prefer being
    addressed: Ma'am, Madam, Hey You.......? 
    
      Alan

    To me, Lady (said the way Mat does) is said with affection.  Lady
    sounds classy to me.  Like someone else said, one is born a woman
    and then becomes a lady.
    
    If Anne is bothered by this she should say so.  I wouldn't let
    something like this get in the way of a good relationship.
    
    Anna
    

"Lady" to me is not an endearment.  If I was told, "That was a great meal, 
lady" by someone I know I would just stare at them, and figure that they were
clowning around.  If told that by a stranger then I would think them of lower
class (than I).  I would expect that type of talk from a (sorry folks) truck
driver.  If someone wants to refer to me when talking to someone else, then I
like the term, as in "Hand the lady your package, Johnny".  If someone is
speaking directly to me, then I would expect "That was a great meal, Carol/Ms.
Johns/ Ma'am". I do agree that I would not be offended by a loved one if that
person used "milady" and smiled. 

I keep thinking about this.  I can only see using "lady" that way when teasing,
as in saying to your SO, "Hey lady, you're kinda cute.  Wanna have dinner
with me tonight?"
                  Carol

    
    
    Someone already asked this - How do you address a male who's name
    you do not know?
    
    I would expect whoever I am intimate with to use my first name or
    an AGREEDED upon pet name (but I really can not think of one). 
    Except when the intent is clearly to be silly.
    
    _peggy
    
    		(-)
    		 |
    
    			I use Sir and Ma'am for individuals I do not
    			know.  I use first names or just last names
    			or initials for everyone else except when being
    			really silly.
    

"It maybe from the fact that a woman is seen by SOME men as interchangeable with
any other woman so first names are not used but terms that can apply to another
are used."

How interesting...  I known several women who for various reasons prefered to
use generic address, 'dear' when speaking to me.

JMB

    re .30
    
    ahem, well I'm one of the women who uses "sweetie" and "dear" because
    otherwise I tend to use the wrong name.  While any current is certainly
    an individual, many, many names pop into my mouth when I seek the
    name for "loved one".
    
    Of course I and my brothers were identified as "Leenicktimjohnbillfrank" 
    our entire childhood, and I only have two brothers...
    
    lt

    [carefully wash foot just in case...]
    
    	I had a friend in college who called her mother "Lady" and there
    was no question that it carried a lot of warmth and love.  She even
    referred to her in the third person that way - I'd get letters that
    said "Lady says 'Hi'."
    
    	I used sir and ma'am casually when I worked in industries that
    required that I had public contact.  At this stage in life, I use "sir"
    when I believe someone male deserves my respect and "ma'am" for
    females. I do not grant the titles lightly, and certainly not for
    mere rank.  The last person I remember addressing as "sir" was the
    president of my last company.  "Mr. S" as he was known in conversation,
    could easily have been first name basis, but I respected him enough
    to use the title. (I left the company over 2 years ago...)
    
    	I'm likely to use "Lady" for a woman who's important to me.
    "Howya doin' Pretty Lady?" is a very likely greeting from me if
    I haven't seen you in a while.
    
    	With SO's, I tend to have a pet name (there's a note on that
    either in V1 or Human Relations) that I use.  Also, the form of
    "Hey lady, haven't I seen you here before..." banter occurs.
    
    	Well, I think I've kept my foot out so far, so time to quit.
    
    						--Doug

    re:.31
    
    Yeah, that too. Remembering my SO's names was complicated by the
    fact that among them were two Karen's, one Kathy, and a Carol.
    The first syllable was no problem -- it was the second that I
    would fumble on.
    
    And my mother tends to address me and each of my two nephews as
    "Jerry_Eric_Chris_Whichever_Kid_You_Are".
    
    --- jerry

    My mother-in-law is a honey-dear person, and it used to annoy the
    heck out of me until I figured out that she couldn't even keep her
    own kids straight.  Neil and his brother Lee look a lot alike now
    that they're grown, and with a daughter-in-law and a granddaughter
    both named Kathy, she doesn't have a prayer of remembering what
    name goes with which person. 
    
    Though she does a great job with the grandchildren.
    
    --bonnie

    RE:  .35
    
    My mother-in-law is a honey-dear person, too.  All things considered,
    I'd rather have it that way, since half the time when she does call
    me a name, it's her _dog's_ name.  Yes.  You read that right.  Her
    dog's name is Marcy.  Mine is Marion.  For some reason she has been
    known to call me Marcy.  When she does it, she doesn't even realize
    what she has done.  Nobody has ever called it to her attention.
    We all just sort of stuff our fists in our mouths to stifle the
    snickers.  All in all, though, she is a really nice (though somewhat
    dippy) lady.
    
    Marion 

    Well, I have been called "girl" and "miss" so long (not in a deragatory
    way, but because I was one - I'm only 20 now) that I fairly glow
    when strangers call me *any* name that implies age and maturity,
    eg: Lady, Woman, Ma'am, etc... (For my 20th birthday, my father
    send me a card listing the ways you could tell you weren't a kid
    anymore, and one was "When teenage boys call you 'Ma'am'".)
    
    With people I know, I prefer woman, because, as many people have
    mentioned, "Lady" carries a lot of baggage.  I picture a "lady"
    as being someone intelligent and refined, and being called "lady"
    puts some sort of burden on me to conform to that image.  (As anyone
    who has met me could tell you, I am not overly concerned with social
    protocol...)                                               
    
    Diana_Who_Is_Still_More_Comfortable_With_Girl_(Until_She_Graduates)
    

    > "Lady" carries a lot of baggage...
    
    Hey, I've got it!
    
    We can all be bag ladies!
    
    Seriously, if "lady" indicates refinement and such, why are the
    homeless women on the street called "bag ladies" instead of "bag
    women"? 
    
    --bonnie

    re: .37
    
    � . . .I fairly glow when strangers call me *any* name that
    � implies age and maturity. . .
    
    Several "thoughts" come to mind.  
    
    One is "Ooooo - that smarts." (followed by whimpers of longing - 
    how long has it been since I've been carded?  And why do some people 
    call me "Mr.", like I'm a grown-up or something?)  Call me a kid
    and you can have my life savings and first-born child. . .
    
    Another:  would I get on your extra-good side Diana, if I called
    you up and, in my best Joe Cool voice said, "Hi, Diana.  How're ya 
    doin' you old crone?"  Uh, Diana?  Hello?  Hello?  Hmmm. . .guess
    this means I'm back in the running for the Golden Bozo awards. . .
    
    Hey, if I can't have youth, I'll settle for immaturity. . .
    
    Steve (the fossilized foole)
    

    re .38
    
    Good point...
    
    I would much rather have an SO say "That was some dinner Lady" than
    "that was some dinner Woman".  Or "See you tomorrow Lady" rather
    than "see you tomorrow Woman".  But to each his own.
    
    Tanya

    Everyone has made good points.  For myself, I consider the context
    in which the comment was made to be more important that the terminology
    since society has played havoc about what is acceptable and probably
    will continue to do so for many years yet.  When it comes to "lady"
    vs. "woman", let me tell you the enscription I want on my tombstone,
    "The lady had class."
    
    Barb

    I can hardly think of a higher compliment that for someone to say
    to me "You're a real lady."  If someone says "Hey, lady, you forgot
    your change," it obviously isn't meant in the same way but it doesn't
    particularly bother me.  In that sense, I take the word "lady" to
    be synonymous with "woman" or "person."  If my husband says I'm
    his lady, I beam all over.
    
    I ABHOR being called a girl or, even worse, "gal".  By anyone. 
    Particularly in a business relationship (yes, it does happen even
    at Digital), but really anywhere, anytime, by anyone.
    
    And no one except my daddy and my husband ever have permission to
    use honey, sugar, or any of that stuff on me.  Those two can use
    all the sickeningly sweet names they want, and I love it!
    
    						Pat

now I am a real woman!!

As a little girl I wanted to be a lady.  A lady was always gracious
and kind, never did embarassing things in public, and always knew the 
correct behaviour.  A lady was not necessarily intelligent, but she
was always charming.  As I was learning the rules, I gradually realized
that being a lady meant suppressing a large part of my natural 
personality. 

Now, some of the rules were part of the civilizing of the natural 
little savage who always wants to go first and take the largest piece 
of cake.  But the rules for lady went much further.  I was constantly 
being told that my gestures were too exhuberant, my voice too noisy, 
my enthusiasm too unrestrained. Even my hobbies were unladylike.  A
lady does not talk about biology in public.  "Lady" was also used in 
my family to discreetly despise women who did not come from our 
background.  Entire ethnic groups were not ladies and gentlemen.

My emotional rejection of the word "lady" came when I awakened from 
the great deception "if you behave like a lady, men will behave like
gentlemen".  My guilt feelings about unpleasant incidents were increased
by the thought that if I had somehow been more proper and "ladylike", 
it would not have happened.  Actually, ladylike behavior may make the 
situation worse, by encouraging the man to believe there will be no 
retaliation.  I should have been taught to scream, hit, and tell.

So,.. I no longer think of myself as a lady, even though I know which
fork to use and still give up my seat to the elderly.  I am glad to 
be a whole woman.  I can feel strong emotions, fix my own plumbing,
wear gaudy colors, talk about what interests me, and am learning to
fight back when attacked.  Being a woman connects me with other women, 
being a lady set me apart. 

In public places, I am usually offended by sentences that start "Hey,
lady"  because they usually are completed in a sarcastic or insulting
manner.  Some men use "hey, lady" to imply ignorance of things that 
"men " know like how the car works.  I do not object to being referred 
to in the third person as lady, "Say thank you to the nice lady".  
"Miss" or "Ma'am" are perfectly ok for direct address from sales clerks,
and other strangers. 

I would probably be uncomfortable with "lady" used as a term of 
endearment, but would have no trouble explaining this to my SO. 

Some uses of "lady" in very silly contexts, especially from women
and relatives(of all genders), don't bother me at all.

"I can  ...  fix my own plumbing  ..."

Shhh!  I hope you aren't in MA.  In MA, *nobody*, man or woman can fix their own
plumbing!  Keep it quiet, or the plumbing police will get you! 

JMB :-) 

    Terrific!  Real!  Right on!

       I've been away from this file for a while, and I read .0 with a
       certain feeling of deja vu. It reminded me of the "don't call me
       girl" note of the previous incarnation of this file.

       Why? well when used in the way shown in .0 I see little
       difference between "hey, lady!" and "hey, girl!" - they both seem
       to be (subconscious?) put downs.

       A Lady is a member of the [British and some other] aristocracy.
       It denotes nothing else, other than an accident of birth or
       marriage.

       A lady on the other hand is a woman who displays the carriage and
       manners that one associates (rightly or wrongly) with the gentry
       and aristocracy. Used in the third person ("she is quite a
       lady!") it is nothing but a compliment. However used as a direct
       means of address it is a cynical and inappropriate term: at best
       a sarcastic reference to the lack of the characteristics implied
       by adjectival use.


       /. Ian .\

    re .44
    >> Being a woman connects me with other women, 
    >> being a lady set me apart. 
    
    I think this sentence so beautifully addresses the issue, that I
    just wanted to repost it here.  Thank you.
    
    Justine   

    Re .49 (re .44): 
    
    Now, now. The author of .44 isn't encouraging women to forsake
    civility; she clearly expressed the difference between civilized
    behavior and the excessive level of "ladylike" behavior that (used to
    be?) required to earn that honorific. In fact, that reply was the
    best-expressed discussion of the "lady" vs. "woman" question that I've
    seen, and sums up my feelings pretty well. 
    
    -b

    I agree: .44 says it perfectly! I've been wracking my brain to come
    up with a way to express this....now I can stop...Pat already did...
    
    Thanks, Pat 
    
    Dawn
    

    
    re:.49
    what's so good about elites setting policy?
    

    ~--e--~  Eagles_Suggest_All_Opportunity_Comes_Sooner_2_Nicer_Persons
             _and_That_Feminists_Would_Do_Better_2_Appear_"Professional"

I find it interesting that it seems to be assumed that feminists appear 
"unprofessional" and are not "nicer persons". I guess no ladies or men
must have interviewed for my job or my boss would never have hired such
a nasty, unprofessional woman as myself. 

    Lady is to gentleman as woman is to man.
        
    I hate lady. It is too stuffy.  Give me woman. 

	RE: .53

	Eagles, you're using your definition of lady and woman
	to prove your point.  The problem is we're arguing
	definition, so you can't use definition to prove definition.

	All things being equal, the intelligent, experienced,
	polite person will get the job.  The employer will
	not care if she holds up her pinky when she drinks her tea.

	...Karen

    re .57 >could a lady get a facilities job ?
    
    Yes. The real trick is to be treated like a lady on the job.
    
    My definition ? A lady is a person who insists on being treated
    like a lady.
    
    About "lady" being confining. It isn't to keep one from "letting
    their hair down". The difference is that a lady (or gentleman)
    knows *when* the letting down of hair is appropriate behavior.
    
    Dana

    This discussion  seems  to reappear periodically. It's interesting
    to  note  that  most  words  referring to female humans eventually
    become  offensive.  My (inadequate) desk dictionary defines "Dame"
    as: A mature woman, a title conferred on women, equivalent to that
    of knight. Many women in this file now find "dame" offensive. 

    What seems  to be happening is that any term used for a group that
    society  does not favor eventually becomes offensive. This is most
    obvious  in  the  terms  for  people with dark skin, who have gone
    through  colored people, negros, blacks, and people of color. Each
    term  was  at one point the preferred term by the group described,
    and  became,  in  its  turn, offensive. I don't know what the next
    term will be, but it will turn up in 5 to 10 years.

    A problem  with  this  is  that  it  results in a less interesting
    language.  One  of the best things about English is its many words
    that  differ only subtly. I can refer to male humans as boys, men,
    gentlemen,  guys,  or  fellows,  each  with  implying  a different
    relationship  or  group.  For  females,  the  only  word I can use
    without  causing offense is "women". The result is dulling English
    from  a  sharp tool to a blunt instrument. If I beleived that this
    would really improve the position of women I could go along, but I
    think  that  it's  essentially  silly.  I fully expect woman to be
    offensive (replaced by womyn perhaps?) relatively soon. 

    I don't know what can be done, as I believe that this process will
    happen to any word used to describe a group that isn't dominant in
    the  society.  I  suppose  we'll just change words every few years
    rather than attacking the larger problems.

--David

Re: .59

(Warning: the following is supported only by cobwebbed memory and something
that is beginning to sound like an epidemic: a desktop dictionary.  Can't
we get an OED for every plant, and keep it someplace where we can access it
during normal noting hours? :-)

This is an old problem for English.  In particular, "wench" and "knave"� were
nice�, Old English words for "child" and "boy" [from the American Heritage
Dictionary, Office Edition, etymologies] but when the Normans conquered
England, they used the Old English terms, to denote Anglo-Saxons, in a quite
different social context (guess who was 1-up and who was 1-down), and the words
adopted their still-current sexual/class meanings.

Maybe in the next generation, David, people will demand to be called just
"people".  First we lose inflections, then strong verbs, then...?



�Well, they were spelled a *little* differently, but not much.
�I've read "Sermo Lupo ad Anglos quando Dani maxime pesecuti sunt eos, quod
fuit anno milessimo .xiv." (well, I probably blew the endings; it's "Sermon by
Wulf[stan] to the English when the Danes were greatly persecuting them, which
was in the year 1014") a long, detailed, and racy sermon in Old English about
the evil� going on in England, which (of course!!!) was why the Vikings (who were
piously worshiping _their_ gods!) were winning, so straighten up quickly before
the end of the world arrives at the millenium -- anyway, so I've seen the
not-so-nice Old English words, too, and I don't remember these being among
them.  (Archbishop Wulfstan was right, too; the world ended in 1066, at the
hands of the descendents of Vikings who had settled down in France... :-)
�As I remember, in most of these deeds, women were the victims.  I think that
Iceland was the best place in Europe for women's rights during the "dark ages."

    	I think too often we become thin-skinned. When we consider the
    word "lady" it can refer to the "grand lady", "old lady", Hey, lady,
    and of course, "That Lady". It's the use of the word and its intonation
    that raises the hackles. The same can be said for "boy". I'd venture
    few people would say "hey boy, come here", to a black man almost
    anywhere, but wouldn't hesitate to say "that's my boy" when puffing
    out their chests.
    	The word "feminist" is hard one for me to grasp, because different
    writers use it to mean different things. Some refer to feminist
    as meaning female or female oriented, others use it to describe
    hard line revolutionary groups, still others mean it to a manner
    of behavior, excluding militaristic and subversive, by a women as
    a movement to gain equality in all areas of society. Some women
    don't like to be described as feminist, others feel comfortable with
    the description. 
    	I'd just like to see words used as they are intended by the
    user, and not have everyone read into them as meaning something
    else. When I open the door for my wife and other women and I say
    "after you, ladies", I'm not being derogatory, rather, I consider
    it to be complimentary. On the other hand when I've opened the door
    for some females as a courtesy, I've been hit with, "I don't need
    a man to open the door for me". 
    	So I get very confused in what the lastest meaning of a word
    may be and use the standard words that I was taught to be gentlemenly
    in each circumstance and hope that I don't offend.
    
    Ken
    

    RE: .61
    
    >                           On the other hand when I've opened the door
    >  for some females as a courtesy, I've been hit with, "I don't need
    >  a man to open the door for me".
    
    When I've gotten this reaction from some women, my immediate response
    is to let go of the door.
    
    Sometimes I'm lucky: the door is heavy and quick moving, and gets
    'em in the kneecaps.
    
      Alan

    re: .61 by RUTLND::KUPTON
    > I think too often we become thin-skinned.
    
    Ken,
    
    This is an interesting comment. Are you saying that some women are
    thin-skinned because they don't like to be called "ladies"? If I'm
    reading your note as you intended, please take a minute to think about
    what's transpired. Some women have said that they like the term "lady".
    Others have said that they don't. Your note implies that you don't care
    whether people like the term or not -- you intend to continue using it.
    Now, if you expressed a dislike for brussel sprouts, how would you feel
    if someone said "It's just when they're poorly cooked that you feel
    nauseated" and put a huge dollop on your plate? 
    
    Liz
    
    p.s. I don't know when you'd say "that's my boy" (maybe about your
    son?) but I can't at the moment think of an occasion when I'd use
    that expression.

    
    
    First of all, I feel compelled to say that whenever a man or woman
    opens or holds open a door for me, I generally walk through and
    say, "Thank you."  If I get to a door first, I generally open it
    and hold it open for the person (male or female) who is behind me
    or next to me.  I consider this to be a matter of human courtesy,
    and it doesn't strike me as a particularly feminist issue.  Though
    I will admit that it makes me a little uncomfortable if a man goes
    out of his way (like by crossing in front of me or by running ahead
    of me) to open the door, but if he does, I still walk through, and
    I still say thank you.
    
    To those of you who use the word lady.  What if you and I were working
    together (say, in the same group, or on a project), and I told you
    that I was uncomfortable with your use of the word lady.  Would you
    keep using it in my presence?  Would you think I was rude, pushy?
    Would you appreciate the feedback?  I'd like to know because sometimes 
    this issue comes up for me, and I'd like to know how it feels to
    someone I may confront.  By the way, I usually *don't* confront
    people unless I feel personally close to them.  (But if someone
    called me honey or dear, I probably would say something.)  Usually if
    someone uses the word lady or girl, I make it a point to use
    the word woman several times in the next few sentences, and usually
    the person also uses the word woman, at least in my presence.
    
    Justine                                          

    RE: .64
    
    Liz, I think that the issue comes down to the fact that some people
    (male or female) are always going to find something offensive about
    the words or actions of somebody else, no matter how innocent the
    intent of the perceived offender.
    
    Yes, if a woman were to say to me that she did not like me to refer
    to her as a lady, then in a one-to-one conversation, I would refer
    to her as a woman, even if I thought the word "lady" was a sign
    of respect.
    
    However, if this woman was part of a larger group of females I was
    addressing, and I normally would use the word "ladies" in such a
    setting, knowing that the other women thought that to be an acceptable
    word, I would continue to use ladies. If she's offended, tough. Then
    it becomes her problem, not mine. (I can see it now: off she goes
    to Personnel, filing a complaint about the denigrating "L" word.)
                                         
    As an aside, in either this, or the Note about "Girl vs. Woman",
    someone said that the word "Ma'am" is always an acceptable and
    proper form of address when speaking to a woman.
    
    There has been a law suit brought by a male student in a woman's
    study class at a college in (I think, Pennsylvania), who was kicked
    out of the class by his instructess after this reported exchange:
    
      He: "Ma'am, I don't agree with your interpretation".
    
      She: "I'm too young (she's 24 or 25) to be called Ma'am".
    
      He: "What do you want me to call you? Sir?"
    
        Alan
                                        

    re .66 >instructress 
    
    ??

    re:64
    	I guess I should clarify. I truly meant we, when I talked about
    being thin skinned. And I guess it's true. Everyone gets so darn
    defensive about things. 
    	What I allude to is that when talking in a group and the
    conversation is lively etc., if I don't weigh evry word I say prior
    to using it. I may say I went out with the boys the other night
    or my wife went out with the ladies or the girls. I don't mean to
    insult or antagonize anyone. But it really angers me when someone
    gets all bent and ices over while saying "I am not a girl, I'm a
    woman". It totally destroys the atmosphere of the conversation and
    everyone tenses up. I can't picture myself saying " my wife went
    out with the females or the women the other night." To some (male
    and female) certain words resurect bad memories or conger up bad
    images. Most of us try not to hurt or insult either the same or
    opposite gender in normal conversation, at least I try not to, but
    there is no guarantee that what doesn't irritate you might not irritate
    some one else.
    	As to "that's my boy". The last thing my father said to my mother
    and brother before he died was, "I'll never see my boy again.".
    I was 22 years old, in my 5th tour of Viet Nam... I didn't consider
    myself a boy at the time. I've heard many a mother and father say 
    "that's my boy" or "that's my girl" at numerous sporting events as
    well as son and daughter as they swell up with pride for a child's
    accomplishment. 
    	
    Ken

    	RE: .65
    
    	Justine, I *also* feel compelled to say that I always say
    	"Thank you" when someone opens the door for me (and that I
    	open doors for other people, male and female, as often as
    	doors are opened for me.)
    
    	The only time I have ever objected to having the door opened
    	for me is (as you mentioned) if someone makes a big show of
    	running ahead or falling over himself to get there before me
    	(or, as has happened a few times, the person literally asks
    	me to WAIT until he gets there so that he can do it for me
    	-- "Oh, HOLD ON!  I'll get it for you.")
    
    	In cases like that, I say, "That's ok, I've got it" (and smile
    	while I hold the door for the man.) 
    
    	As oversensitive to this stuff as *some* men are, I'm sure his
    	version of the tale later was that I huffed at him with, "I
    	don't need a man to open the door for me."  (It's so hard to
    	remember exact things that people say in upsetting situations
    	that they probably use the phrase that that they most *associate*
    	with women who refuse offers to have doors held for them.)
    	Their intentions are not malicious in any way, of course, but
    	would be totally mistaken about my attitude and intentions.
    	Oh well.  It happens in the course of interactions between humans.

    	As an example of why it is best to refrain from using words
    	that groups find offensive (such as Lady or girl...)
    
    	My uncle is a Carmelite Brother (like a monk, sort of) who goes
    	to various places as part of his work, and one of his projects
    	every year is to hold special religious meetings for alcoholics
    	in Hawaii.  (He started this after visiting my parents several
    	times in Honolulu, which is where my family has lived for the
    	better part of 30+ years.)
    
    	My uncle was in World War II and still refers to Japanese people
    	as Japs.  There are a lot of Japanese Americans in Hawaii, and
    	he refers to them as Japs, also (or at least he did when he
    	first started working with the local people in Hawaii on this
    	yearly project.)  My parents and I had to take him aside several
    	times and tell him that it is considered unbelievably insulting
    	to call Japanese Americans "Japs" (probably because it implies
    	that they were not really Americans during WWII, which was a
    	very, very sore point among several_generation_Japanese_American
    	families at the time.)
    
    	My uncle is a sweet person and meant absolutely no harm by the
    	term.  He thought it was an accurate way to refer to Japanese
    	people (and acceptable.)  Nevertheless, my parents and I would
    	visibly cringe when we would hear him say it because we knew
    	the kind of hurt it would cause (and that people would definitely
    	react to him badly because of it.)  In other words, the use
    	of the word would make *HIM* look bad (in the eyes of people
    	of all races in Hawaii.)  So, we were actually HELPING him by
    	informing him.
    
    	The same applies to the use of Lady and girl, sort of.  It can
    	make a person look bad to continuously use those words in some
    	circles, so it is only polite to point it out to people so that
    	they can avoid using those words and looking bad.  (Or at least
    	that is how I see it.)

    	re:69 NEXUS::CONLON
    	You just reminded me of an event that occurred this past weekend
    with my wife and 2 other females at their place of employment. My
    wife was working with a young Spanish woman and a very young
    white female (18 yrs.).
    	The 18 yr. old came up to my wife burbling and gushing "Did
    you see that spic? My God, he's an angel, what a hunk!!!!!" My wife
    not thinking just smiled at the enthusiasum of this child over an
    extremely handsome man. Very quickly she realized the air was tense
    and the spanish woman came to my wife and said, "did she say what I
    thought I heard?"  My wife was embarassed for the scene, and the
    18 year old came over to them and asked if the Spanish woman had
    seen the man. The white person was then asked by the spanish woman
    what she had called the man. The younster replied, "he's the most
    beautiful spic I've ever seen." My Spanish women then began to light
    into her. My wife interjected before it got too bad and asked why
    the use of that word. The youngster then said "that's short for
    spanish isn't it?" The young person cried and apologized after she
    was told of the derogatory meaning of the word. 
    	Often times we really don't mean to hurt.
    
    (words: lady, girl not used intenionally. Tough to find substitutes)
    
    This story is true. Persons and employer not given to protect the
    innocent and the guilty.
    
    Ken

    
    re:.65
    Speaking personally, I endeavor to call people what they wish to
    be called. [up to and including 'Robert' instead of 'Bob', which
    is rather difficult for me; to my black friends this is a typical wasp
    hang-up and is a source of constant amusement, but I digress...]
    Unfortunately, one usually cannot know what someone wishes to be
    called until after one has spoken to them. Therefore, I always choose
    the most formal form of address, until told otherwise. So, to answer
    the question, yes, of course tell me what you want to be called.
    Otherwise, I'll continue to call you by the 'standard' formal title
    which, while a reasonable choice, may be offensive to you personally.
    And why on earth would I want to be intentionally offensive?

    
    re:.66
    you refer to the women's studies controvery at the university of
    washington (i happen to be taking the class right now during summer
    term, this occurred in the spring term). it is a somewhat more
    complicated issue than this exchange, out of context, might imply.
    

    
    I always try to use the form of address that seems appropriate
    to the situation. Anyone who hasn't spent the last 20 years
    in a cave knows that these are "charged words", and should be 
    used only when one is *very sure* their use will not offend.
    To me it is just courtesy and common sense. If a woman lets
    me know she does not care to be called "Lady", I don't use the
    term. "Lady" to me usually means a wife of a UK peer, just as 
    "Dame" to me refers to a "Dame of the British Empire".
    
    So don't be terribly suprised by a "Hey Person", or "Yo-female-
    person-yes-I-mean-you!" That's just me avoiding charged sexist
    words...-;

    re:.71
    
    I wondered why on at least one occasion you referred to me as
    "Mr. Boyajian". :-)
    
    --- jerry

    RE: .72
    
    Yes, I know that the issue is more complicated than the brief
    exchange I described. If you like, you can type in the history of
    the entire controversy, since you seem to be on the front-line of
    accurate, up-to-date information.
    
    A part of the issue is that some students (male and female) feel that 
    the "radicals" who are teaching (some might term it indoctrination)
    the course are attempting to expunge any dissenters in their midst.
                                      
      Alan

	Being a WOMEN interest notefile, I respectfully ask all the LADIES
	noters to pardon this reply from a latin (macho/caballero)...!

	My mother taught me that all women are ladies, but I consider
	that even though all ladies are women, not all women are ladies !

	I would use "lady" as a compliment, such as:
		"Margaritte, thanks for a great time, my dear lady".

	To somebody special I would never say something like:
		"Thanks for a great time, lady".

	I consider that using "lady" by itself is cold and impersonal,
	unless it is used as a sign of respect towards a not-so-close
	or older woman.

	So, it is a matter of semantics, respectfulness, and love !

	As you have noticed, I have not adventured into the ethimological
	roots of the words LADIES and WOMAN, which were not questioned
	in .0; it is just a survey, isn't it ?


	Efrain
	(who loves all women that are ladies, and all ladies that are women)

    "Lady" has evoked a negative response from me ever since I was in
    high school and the school department policy was that high school
    boys could play on interscholastic teams, but there *were* no teams
    for the girls.
    
    The reason? Playing sports was "UNLADYLIKE".
    
    Fooey.
    
    --DE
    

I could hug the person that started designing two sets of doors at each
entryway of public buildings. For those few unfortunate times that I run
into a male-type-person who insists on holding the door for me, I can insist
on holding the door for him (if I've got 1/2 an hour while I look at him
and try to make non-threatenting body language talk at him, to convince
him to walk through the damn open door first).
	Mez

What's the problem with holding doors for people?  I think it's pretty
rude to slam a door in somebody's face, irrespective of sex.

    John,
    
    Nothing, per se.  However, when a man makes a big show of racing
    around and opening a door for a woman, it does [sometimes] look
    like he is thinking, "Here, weak, stupid woman.  I will work this
    door fastener for you which you do not have the brains to operate,
    and then I will swing open this dweat, heavy door which you do not
    have the strength to open or the stamina to keep open."
    
    Not an agreeable thought, is it?
    
    Also, many of us remember that it was used as an argument against
    equality:  "Well, we can ignore all these clamoring women, because
    they really want us to open doors and hold chairs for them."  Why
    a woman would rather get fifty-nine cents on the dollar and have
    an occasional door opened for her instead of being paid the full
    dollar, and *tipping* whoever opened the door for her was a question
    not to be asked.
    
    							Ann B.

    
    re -.1
    
    That is how you choose to hold the gesture... as a threat or
    insult. 
    
    Where is the great payoff in returning a insult to
    a guy unfortunate enough to have encountered you on the steps?

Re .78, .80

Whenever anyone "makes a big show" of _any_ act of courtesy or consideration,
then the act stops being courteous, and is at best self-congratulatory and
at worst a put down. However, it is not productive to retaliate on the basis
of an unwarranted assumption of the perpetrator's motives.

When I hold the door for someone, it is because I got to the door first, but
only slightly before someone else who also wishes to pass through it. The
decision as to whether to hold the door and wait for the other party to pass,
whether to go through and hold the door behind me, or whether to go through
without holding the door depends on what sort of mood I'm in, how much of a
hurry I'm in, whether I'm going in the same direction as the other party,
whether the other party genuinely needs help (eg is carrying something in
both hands), and whether the small delay I incur as a result of holding the
door will speed the other's passage through it.

When someone holds a door for me, I appreciate the gesture, and in general
will hurry through the door so as not to hold them up unduly.

Whether the "someone else" is a woman, man or penguin is not an issue.

If the act of door-holding (as opposed to the attitude displayed by the
holder) really is an issue, the only solution I can see is for me to
start discriminating on the basis of sex - I can continue to hold the
door for men in the interests of efficient passage, but will refuse to
hold the door for women. I can continue to walk through doors held open
by members of either sex.

I can't work out whether I will be practicing positive or negative
discrimination by doing this, but either way it doesn't seem to be
particularly in the interests either of equality, or of efficient
door-use.

    Your sentence should read "That is how one may choose to hold..."
                                           ^^^ ^^^
    The men *I* associate with do it because 1) they are closer ior
    2) they were well brought up and don't have any other reason for
    doing it.
    
    Should a man be so ill-bred as to open a door for me with a
    condescending smile, he may find himself to be the unfortunate
    recipient of two or more quarters.  (Bills are too hard to get at.)
    
    Mostly, I enjoy my fellow humans too much to be unkind to them on
    first acquaintance.  I am far more likely to greet stereotypical
    behavior with a smile and a silent "How classic!"
    
    							Ann B.

    
    re English lesson
    
    Why, I thank you (as Kirk might say it).
    
    What, exactly, constitutes "condescending"..?
    Is it the angle of the nose, or the amount of 'tooth'
    showing (I may allow my brows an almost imperceptible rise)? 
                                
    Better that we scuttle anonymously through the door on our good
    leg than betray our base roots, and ill-breeding...
    

	As Ann and some others have pointed out not all women are hostile
	to those who open doors. If I get to the door first, I open it.
	If someone opens it for me I say thank you. My mother would have it
	no other way. Being polite is never the wrong action. liesl

    
    	True, Liesl -- I'd even go so far as to say that there are very
    	*few* women anymore who would react with hostility at a door
    	being opened for them (unless there were some other factor present
    	that added to the situation enough to warrant a negative reaction.)
    
    	In the entire 20 or so years since the women's movement started,
    	I have walked through a lot of doors (along with men and women)
    	and I have never ever witnessed anything that could be considered
    	to be even close to a door-opening confrontation.
    
    	I've never even seen anyone raise an eyebrow over it, in fact.
    	Both women and men hold door open for me, and I thank them for
    	it.  I hold doors open for both women and men, and they thank
    	me for it.  I've never seen it be a problem.
    

	Of course Digital solved the entire problem here at CXO3 with 
	those automatic doors. Now it's a case of who stands in the 
	light beam so the door will open!! Technology to the rescue.

	liesl :*)

       	Yes!  The automatic doors are great!  
    
    	I guess they turned out to be a necessity here for weather factors
    	(rather than rules of etiquette.)
    
    	For people not familiar with our lovely facility at CX03, the
    	building lies in some sort of wind tunnel (which means that
    	if there is a gentle breeze anywhere in Colorado Springs at
    	all, there is a gale blowing through the walkway leading to
    	the only entrance to our building.)
    
    	The gusts are so bad, on occasion, that it is enough to blow a
    	door off its hinges when opened with the inside surface exposed
    	to the full force of the wind.  (When we had manual doors, they
    	used to put signs up about not opening the right sides.)
    
    	So now, the doors are all automatic (opening to each side) --
    	it's like walking onto the Star Ship Enterprise.  :)  

    	Another interesting feature of this facility is the resident
    	owl who lives up on the right front corner of the building.
    	I've seen him a few times -- he stares right at you as you
    	walk toward the entrance.  He is beautiful and quite large.
    
    	Other people have seen large animals walking among the cars
    	in our parking lot at times (like deer and big horn sheep, I
    	think.)  Driving in at night, I've had to slow down at times
    	to let deer finish crossing the road within 100 feet of the
    	plant down the hill from CX03.  They seem comfortable with
    	living near us.  I guess they think computer people are fairly
    	harmless.  :)

    re:.88
    
    Actually, the most impressive aspect *I* found of the CXO facility
    during my one visit there, was the incredible view of the mountains
    right outside the door. But, then, I suppose you Springers have
    gotten jaded about that by now. :-)
    
    And this is getting too far off the topic...
    
    --- jerry

"Should a man be so ill-bred as to open a door for me with a condescending
smile, he may find himself to be the unfortunate recipient of two or more
quarters."

Ho! That's a good comeback...

Actually, when I hold a door open for someone, I usually hold the door and let
them go through first.  Would that be interpreted different?  It seems a lot
easier then standing on the wrong side of the door and trying to muscle it open
from the hinge end.   I guess it depends on which way the door opens.  Doors
usually open outwards for fire regulations; I guees that means I hold doors more
going in, then going out. 

JMB

    Behaving like a lady or gentleman speaks to me of childhood admonitions
    not to show what you are really like.  During the time one is behaving
    like a lady one must take care not to show exuberance, desire, hunger,
    emotion, strength or intelligence.  One must be careful that the
    dress it at all times perfectly clean and pressed, everything must
    remain in it's place - feet together, white gloved hands in the
    lap - picture perfect.
    
    Behaving like a lady was a time of many restrictions.

   
    re: 80
    
    Ann,
    
    I do not agree.  Personally, I think those men that do (and they 
    are few and far in between) open doors for a woman, and seat them
    at dinner, etc., are showing exceptionally good manners.
    
    It seems like any woman who thinks a man "looks like he is thinking,
     'Here, weak, stupid woman. I will work this door fastener...'"
    is a pretty suspicious woman, and maybe shouldn't be out with this
    man.
    
    Just my opinion.
    

    re: .92
    
    And I disagree with *you*. I think it is exceedingly easy to tell
    whether a man is opening doors, holding chairs, etc. in a friendly,
    companionable manner or a condescending, obnoxious manner.
    
    It's just that the different feelings you get are not measurable
    on some "vibe-device" and therefore are invalid. [:-|]
    
    --DE
    

    clarification to previous REPLY:
    
    I mean to say that the feelings ONE gets about others' attitudes
    are unmeasurable on a scientific device, and therefore, if ONE
    chooses to voice them, can easily be told she is [pick one]
    crazy, nuts, over-reacting, "on the rag", strident, etc.
    
    Hope that makes clear anything that might've been unclear about
    my last sentence. Sorry about the use of "you-generic" in a note
    where I started out REPLYing to "you-specific".
    
    --DE
    

It isn't even that un-scientific Dawn. By the time the nth person, who always
happens to be male, refuses to walk through a door you (who happen to be
female) are holding open, one does begin to catch on.
	Mez

<It isn't even that un-scientific Dawn. By the time the nth person, who always
<happens to be male, refuses to walk through a door you (who happen to be
<female) are holding open, one does begin to catch on.
<	Mez

Maybe things are different out here in the west but I've never had a man
refuse to walk through a door I've held open for him. 

Also, I get the feeling that some women are confusing the strictures of what
they consider "ladyhood" ie: dress right, walk right etc, with what is merely
common courtesy. You don't have to wear a dress and white gloves to be polite
and it is not (IMHO) a restriction of your rights to expect you to exhibit a
little courtesy. Well, I suppose it is a restriction of your rights but a 
necessary one if we are to live together on this crowded planet. I don't exactly
agree with Miss Manners on everything but I do believe we could improve our
manners in this day and age. liesl

    It's worth pointing out that Miss Manners is a feminist . . .
    
    --bonnie    

    
    re Miss Manners
    
    I love how she arches her eyebrows... her byline photo
    is the very picture of uppercrust studied comtempt..

    And then there are then men who insist on making sure that 'ladies'
    always get off the elevator before them.  Is this so they can get
    a good view of our *sses?  I mean, I've had total strangers put
    their hand on my back to guide me out of the elevator.  Perhaps
    they didn't think I was capable of navigating through the door? 
    And just who the hell is this total stranger who feels that he has
    the right to invade my body space by touching me?
    
    But what this really has to do with is the politics of touch, who
    can touch whom.  Men always assume that they can touch women, er,
    'ladies'.  Male bosses walk up to female secretaries and put a hand
    on the shoulder or the back while issuing instructions, etc, etc.
    How many 'ladies' would walk up to their male, or female boss for
    that matter, and put a hand on the boss' shoulder or back?
    
    But as we ALL know, a REAL 'lady' never minds being touched by a
    total stranger.  REAL women, however, may deck you for this behaviour.
    
    

    re:  .24
    
    I agree, Peggy, names are powerful.  I have had several, mainly
    because I am an adoptee.  I remember distinctly that the ground
    moved beneath my feet when I learned my original name, the name
    my birthmother gave me.  WOW.  Now I tend to mix all the name together,
    I like them all for different reasons.
    
    I hated being a student teacher because my supervisor insisted that
    the students call me Ms. Ervin.  I like first name basis, less formal
    and more real.  I'm Laura, not Ms. Ervin.
    
    Regards,
    
    Laura (-)
           |      I do like those Goddess symbols.  Made of gold, gathered
                  together in one place, a shrine to the Goddess, she
                  would be present.
    

    	RE:  .99
    
    	You just hit on something I have always been curious about.
    
    	What is this invisible spot that women have in the middle of
    	our backs that men seem to instinctively know how to use when
    	they want to 'steer' a woman through a door of some sort?
    	(Or should I say 'push' a woman through...)  :)
    
    	I used to think that only familiar men used this invisible
    	spot for propelling women forward, but I, too, have seen
    	total strangers moving women in this manner.
    
    	Is there some unwritten rule somewhere that if a woman needs
    	help propelling herself forward, that this one spot is the
    	acceptable place for any men to provide momentum?
    
    	It is supposed to be like a bumper on a car?  :) :)

    re .99:
    
    As I understand the rules of etiquette:
    
    A man is supposed to follow a woman up the stairs and lead her down.
    This is not so he can look up her dress, but to be in position to
    catch her if she should trip.
    
    Similarly with elevators. I believe the man is supposed to follow
    a woman off the elevator and lead her on. The rationale being that
    the woman is exposed to the dangerous situation the least. 
    
    I think that at first there was some confusion surrounding the
    etiquette of the elevator. One argument could be that it is like
    a carriage, the man should get in last and get out first, so as
    to assist the lady with the step. The other argument being that like 
    any other door, the lady should always enter first. 
    
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    

    RE: 102
    
    And then there's the argument that women are perfectly capable of
    going up stairs and getting on elevators without help. 
    
    I haven't seen any one of have the vapors on a staircase in...
    oh...it must be *weeks* now. :-}
    
    --DE
    

    One thing that really annoys me is when a man insists that I walk
    first (up stairs or on a crowded sidewalk, whatever) when *he* knows
    the way and *I* don't.  The last time that happened I turned around
    and said, "Since I don't know the way and you do, would you just
    go first!"  I don't think politeness should be overdone to the point
    of being ridiculous.
    
    I also find it annoying to have a man help me on with my coat. 
    For god's sake, I'm not 2 yrs. old!  I can understand it on a first
    date when I realize the guy is just trying to act nice or whatever
    and treat me like a "lady" (I said understand not appreciate) but
    I see no need for it to go on and on as tho I never did learn to
    put my coat on.
    
    As far as holding doors, if someone's walking behind me I hold the
    door for them so it won't slam in their face.  I think that's what
    anyone should do for anybody else regardless of sex.  One thing
    I notice about holding doors around DEC plants.  When I hold the
    door for a man he almost always (maybe even 100%-not sure) says,
    "Thanks".  When I hold the door for another woman she hardly ever
    says anything.  I can't figure that out.  Because of this I always
    make sure *I* say thank you when another woman holds the door for
    me.  (Why should we treat men better than we treat each other?)
    
    I'm most comfortable with men who treat me like a buddy rather than
    a "lady".  If I'm treated like a "lady" I feel like I have to live
    up to their expectations of an attractive woman on a date instead
    of just relaxing and being a friend.
    
    Lorna
    

       My  mother  rationalised the "in and out first" rules to me as a 
       child like this:

       in  and out of elevators: A gentleman should position himself by 
       the  "door open" button and hold it down whilst the ladies enter 
       or leave - that way they don't get 'grabbed' by the doors.

       Stairs: a gentleman should be in a position to catch the lady if 
       she  falls.  However  with  spiral staircases (where the risk of 
       inadvertently  seeing  up  the  ladies  skirt  is high, and were 
       trying  to  catch  her  if  she  falls might lead to both of you 
       falling)  the  gentleman should lead up, and follow down, whilst 
       holding the hand she is not using to hold the handrail. 

       Escalators:  the  gentleman  should stand by the emergency power 
       switch  whilst  the  lady  rides up or down in case her shoe, or 
       dress  hem  catches  in  the  mechanism (no good trying to catch 
       somebody in this case - kill the power fast).

       With  stairs  or  escalators the gentleman should carry any bags 
       the  lady  was  carrying  in her hands (she would however keep a 
       shoulder bag) so as to leave her with both hands free.

       Building  [exterior]  doors: hold the door open FROM THE OUTSIDE 
       so  as  to  be  in  a  position  to defend the lady from lurking 
       aggressors. 

       Interior  doors:  stand  aside and let the lady go first. If the 
       door  is at all heavy then hold it open if you can do so without 
       physical  contact.  If  door  is  very  heavy  (eg some doors in 
       theters  and  other public buildings) and standing inside whilst 
       holding  it  open would cause physical contact then pass through 
       and  hold  open from outside the room, as if it were an exterior 
       door. 

       Cars/carriages: like buildings.

       Revolving  doors and turnstiles are a special case to be treated 
       on the merits of the actual situation...

       /. Ian .\

       A  gentleman  helps  a  lady  on  with her coat, not because she 
       cannot  do it herself, but because the process of groping around 
       behind  your  back to find the second sleeve is undignified, and 
       yes, unladylike

       Secondly  of  course  if  the  coats  have  been  checked  (in a 
       restaurant or theater) or merely placed on a coat rack, it would 
       be  the  gentleman  who went to fetch them: since he is carrying 
       the lady's coat it is natural for him to help her put it on.

       As  for  walking  behind a lady in a crowded environment that is 
       simply  bad manners: the gentleman should go first so that he is 
       the  one pushed and shoved by the unruly masses, and so that his 
       progress  opens  a  pathway  for  the  lady  to  make  dignified 
       progress. 

       /. Ian .\

    Re .106, well, I find it easier and quicker to just slip my coat
    on myself, having had years of practice, than to group around in
    back of me to find the sleeve while the man is holding my coat.
     (I'm always afraid I'm going to ram my hand into his crotch instead
    of my coatsleeve!)
    
    Lorna
    
    P.S. But then I think of the weirdest things.
    

    Lorna,
    
    You missed the obvious problem:  Having your arm thoughtfully
    directed into the wrong sleeve.
    
    							Ann B.

    
    re -.1
    
    That's something I would do...-;

    or have your arm directed into the wrong crotch :*)

    Re:  110
    ...I like that one better!
    ;)
    
    Paula

    re: .105
    
    "that way they don't get 'grabbed' by the doors"...
    
       we can, instead, be grabbed by the men.  spare me, I'll take
    my chances tango-ing with the doors!
    
     !!! 
    

    
    Usually I try and push in front of a woman headed for the same door
    on the assumption that I will bound up the stairs faster than 
    she will anyway. I'm not going to let them believe that I'm
    checking out their buns or anything like that...
    
    Also, I try and slam the door on my way through so as to cause
    enough delay for me to avoid being in the stairwell alone with
    her even for a few seconds. 

'leading 'ladies' in case they trip'

I imagine that alot of this dates back to when women wore dresses longer then
they were tall, and wore shoes with high heels which have little traction at
that surface area and angle.  With that given, it sounds like a reasonable idea
to me.

"What is this invisible spot that women have in the middle of our backs that men
seem to instinctively know how to use when they want to 'steer' a woman through
a door of some sort?"

I suspect that it's the same place that men have their hand on a woman's back
when leading when dancing.  Could also be why some men have a lot of practice at
it.   Myself, I think it might be nice to let the woman lead once in a while.

As for doors and stairs, I'm an inconsiderate sort.  I will stand and hold the
door for over a second if it suits me or not do it at all if it doesn't. 
Stairs I usually run up or down all the time, so I want to be in front so
I don't have to wait and idle behind other people. :-)

JMB

    I am sure most of this stuff dates back to when women wore even
    more outrageous clothes than we do now - high heels an apparent
    exception. However: it is 1988. 
    
    We run marathons.
    We fix automobiles.
    We *build* buildings.
    We lift weights.
                    
    We are more than capable of putting on coats. (especially since
    very few gentlemen are capable of holding them in a way which makes
    it easier - mostly, it's more difficult)
    
    We are more than capable of climbing stairs.
    
    We haven't worn bustles in a while now, and as I said before,
    it been weeks, at least, since one of us had the Vapors and needed
    to be caught.
    
    --DE
    

    
    	Please forgive me for replying to a note without properly
    intorducing	myself in the proper note.
    
    This notesfile cleared up a mystery that had been puzzling me for
    6 years. Whenever I followed a female up stairs, she would turn
    around and give me a dirty look. Neither my wife or sister-in-law
    could figure it out.  I finally realized that my face was at eye
    level with their backsides and they proably thought I was taking
    a good look.
    
    I now keep a greater distance and try to look pre-occupied with
    my thoughts - no more dirty looks!
    
    Guy Novello

>    How many 'ladies' would walk up to their male, or female boss for
>    that matter, and put a hand on the boss' shoulder or back?

Me (but then, I didn't vote to be called lady). Touching is so wierd. I worry
about touching too much. I worry about not touching too much (re: hollywood
hugs). Just a visceral person lost in a material world...

	Mez

    Regarding the issue of men "propelling" women by the back...  I
    can't recall ever doing this, not that that matters particularly.
    But the other night I was watching an old movie ("Father's Little
    Dividend" with Spencer Tracy and Elizabeth Taylor), and happened
    to notice a case where one of the male characters propelled ANOTHER
    MALE character through the door with the "hand on the back".  Thought
    this was interesting...  I looked but didn't see a man propelling
    a woman this way in the film.
    
    				Steve

    I think what you'll see is the "more powerful person" is allowed
    to propel the "less powerful person".
    
    --DE
    

    "Powerful" equalling "assertive", "aggressive", or in a job-related
    situation, "higher-ranking", I'll agree...
    
    Bill

    RE: 121
    
    No, actually, Bill, what I meant by "powerful" is simply
    "higher-ranking" in general. For 2 men, that ususally is a carry-over
    from the job - the guys go out for drinks, and the boss propels
    the junior guy thru the door ahead of him.
    
    For a man and a woman, "higher-ranking" is usually *taken to be*
    the man, in any social situation, unless of course the woman really
    *is* his boss at work.
    
    Certainly a "lower-ranking" woman who is "agressive" enough could
    propel a man, but it would not be accepted gracefully by said man.
    
    --DE
    

    I feel the same way as Pat (in 60.44). WOMAN to me is a female adult
    while LADY is something a bit artificial - refined by WHOSE standards,
    anyway?
    I do open doors for men and women and don't mind if anybody does
    it for me. I don't like being helped into my coat - it always costs
    me a few thousands of my (still long) hair. Worst thing: I HATE
    men lighting my cigarette! They mostly keep the lighter somewhere
    near my navel, so I have to bow down -no,I WOULD HAVE to bow down
    if I wouldn't simply prefer to take the man's hand with the lighter
    and lift it up to my convenience....
    I just LOVE the way elderly english gentlemen (sic) call a young
    woman "dear" or "love" - I mean it.
    Anyway: what I mean when talking about emancipation: I WANT YOUR
    RIGHTS, MEN, BUT WANT TO KEEP MY FEMALE PRIVILEGES AS WELL ;)
    
    pony
     +
    

    
    Hope it's not to late to enter another opinion. It's all been said
    before, so I'll just cast my vote. I think lady is okay if used
    as an endearing term. Same for honey, sweetie, and even "Pookie"
    (a favorite of my last boyfriend who was not at all sexist and
    was extremely politically correct). .I hate it when strange men use
    the word 'honey' or any others. I find it patronizing and sexist.
    The only possible exception to this is if an old man calls me 'dear',
    and I believe it is meant more in a grandfatherly fashion than a
    sexist fashion, the same way he'd call a young man "son".
    
    Whew! I guess I had to speak my piece after all!
         
    Roberta
    
                                                    

OK, a woman womannoter called me lady today, and it felt good. How 'bout that.
Must have been the tone I read it in :-).
	Mez

    
    I use whatever term I feel appropriate, and if they don't
    like it...  well that is a tuff break.

    
    
    I couldn't spend all that time early this morning reading all 126
    notes here without saying  *something*.
    
    I have more female friends than male friends and, interestingly
    enough, I have just noticed (prior to entering this conference)
    how when referring to one another I've heard the word lady
    several times - as in  "Debby? Yes she's a very nice lady (and
    I might add that the woman who said this was older than Debby by
    not a few years).
    
    And while mentioning what women refer to each other why does my
    mother (in her 60s) refer to herself *and* the women she works
    with as 'the girls'
    
    If this is male-dominated social programming (which I contend it
    is) can we have a little mercy among the male gender.  We have
    been programmed to and not all of us are fortunate enough to
    ever question, let alone break away from, these pig-headed ideals.
    
    By the way I am guilty of perhaps holding the door open too long
    for both men and women (who are to me - should I know them Sir
    and Ma'am - military training dontcha know)and that can let the
    cold air in!  Also please note that I help my friends with their
    coats and jackets - both *male* and female.  I haven't gotten a
    crotchful of knuckles yet because if you know what you're doing
    it is not a difficult procedure *and, I know for a fact* that 
    when some women dress for an important occasion they might not
    either A.)want to move around too much or B.)can move around too
    much.
    
    And I'm getting on in my years but am certainly not old enough 
    to have a use for helping women up stairs and get on and off 
    elevators unless, of course, they were unduly burdoned or 
    perhaps just getting on in their years.  Yes, you can do that
    on your own.  By the way - where is that spot on your back?
    
    One last thing if I may.  I too felt that statement about being
    a woman connects you with other women but that being a lady doesn't
    was *very well put*.  However, I would like to stat as a male that
    I feel the opposite - and I could be alone in this.  I do not want
    to feel connected or likened to most of the men I meet.  I would
    rather be separated into the context of gentleman  - if it is offered.
    Of course, once again this might just show the devaluation in the
    nouns used to depict the female gender.
                  
    Respectfuly,
    
    Luis

>    I do not want
>    to feel connected or likened to most of the men I meet.  I would
>    rather be separated into the context of gentleman  - if it is offered.
>    Of course, once again this might just show the devaluation in the
>    nouns used to depict the female gender.

My guess: it's the standard devaluing of relationships. Men are taught to be
rugged individualists. Women are taught to support and nurture. And, of course,
what men are taught is 'better' than what women are taught. So, women might be
congratulated on acting like men, but men are almost never congratulated on
acting like a woman.
	Mez

    Woman is warm, cozey and sexual. Lady is prissy and prudish.

    In some contexts, though, "lady" connotes power and authority.

    
    TO ME A LADY IS RIGHT AFTER A TEENAGER.BECAUSE THEN SHE BECOMES
    A LADY THEN WHEN SHE IS MARRIED OR BECOMES INTERESTED IN MEN THEN
    SHE BECOMES A WOMAN.THOSE ARE MY OPINIONS
    ANGELINA

    	RE: 60.131
    
    	Angelina (beautiful name)
    
    	Please use mixed-case letters. All caps is the same as
    	shouting in notes.
    
    	Scott