Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    
    This may not sound like much right now but "A person whom doesn't
    love himself , cannot love someone else"
    
    All the love, understanding, and hope in the world is not going
    to change "bob" UNLESS , bob wants to Change.
    
    I say don't stay with bob or mike , Mike will get his hopes up
    you will still be miserable and bob may blame you for his problems.
    
    If (and this may be hard to think of) you really want to help bob
    leave him, don't replace him with Mike . Tell him why you are
    leaving, and What you need FROM him for you to come back. You have
    2 other people depending on you for support , you don't need to
    take care of an adult child , or live with someone you probably
    will never love.
                             joy 

Confused, the following is what I think I would do, but since I have
never been in this situation, please take it in that light.

Although Mike sounds like a wonderful person, I don't think it is
fair for you to marry him just to get away from Bob.  However I do
think you should get away.  If possible, leave Bob and live on
your own.  Try to contact support groups for battered women for help (check
your phone book).  I really think that there is something to the "tough
love" concept.  Bob might be finding it too easy not to change since you
always stand by him and forgive him.  Move out, tell Bob to get help and let
him know that AFTER THE BABY IS BORN that will be his last chance (if you
want to give him one more chance).  But know in your heart that you
will not tolerate it anymore.  It will be hard, but you have to get
away for your son and unborn child.  You need sleep, a healthy diet
and peace of mind.

If you really think Bob might change, and you really want to give
him one more chance, I think you will have to tell Mike that it
won't work.  I don't see anything in your note to suggest any basis
for a relationship with Mike.  However if you think that you and
Bob will never work, suggest to Mike that you could date for awhile.
I hate to see you rush into another relationship.

I hate to say it, but 7 years is a long time to wait for someone to
change.  Don't delude yourself that if you just stay with him for
X years more that he will change.  He has to want to change for himself,
not for you.  You have to look at what is best for you and your children,
not what is best for Bob.

...Karen

    There is another choice.  You don't have to be with either of them.         
                                                                       
    As hard as it is to accept, loving Bob is not enough.  You cannot  
    change him.  All you can do take care of yourself and of your children.
    And I think that means leaving him.                                
                                                                       
    But I don't think marrying Mike is the answer.  And I don't really 
    think you do either.                                               
                                                                       
    You mention Mike's willingness to "take care of" you several times.
    Do you mean financially?  emotionally?  physically (i.e., protect  
    you from Bob)?  all of the above?                                  
                                                                       
                                                                       
    

    more advice from someone who hasn't been in your place, but I have
    had experience with chemical dependency. You cannot change Bob,
    your love will not change Bob. He has to do it, and he must understand
    that you will not tolerate his addiction. My opinion is that you
    have to cut off the relationship completely and forget him, if he 
    staightens out, take it with a grain of salt, he's got to earn your
    trust. See "Days of Wine and Roses".
    
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    

    I agree with what the others have said.  However, if you are not
    capable of being financially independent alone, you may have to
    rely on Mike for a period of time.  I don't think getting married
    is the answer (can you live together in a house at the Post (or 
    wherever) without being married?).  I think you might want to have
    a long, deep talk with Mike about how you feel, and how you think
    you will feel in the future.  I am sure if he is a true friend,
    he will understand.  Of course, he may not want to marry you then,
    and may not be AS supportive as he might have been, but why delude
    him?
    
    I would suggest you don't count on Bob changing...ever.  If he does,
    it'll be a nice surprise, and you can take it from there.

    Is your family in a situation to help you out at all?  Have you
    spoken to those closest to you and asked for their advice?
    
    IF you are in dire straits and IF it seems you have no choice and IF
    you are financially strapped, and you can't trust Bob to change, and
    you can't marry Mike without loving him, you might want to consider
    putting your 2nd child up for adoption.  This thought may repulse you
    completely, and I fully realize the choice is completely up to you and
    you may not even see this as an option, but in cases like this it is
    important to look at ALL the options - and it is BEST to look at all
    the options WITH A COUNSELOR'S HELP.     
    
    be strong, take care of yourself and those who need you first...
    
    -Jody
    

This reply was sent to me to be posted anonymously
    
    _________________________________________________________

From someone who understands everything.  I know what your going through
I went through It all myself for 5 years and I know it isn't easy by
any means.  I know what it was like to take the abuse from someone you
loved, and whom you trusted.  What I really want you to know is that
people will always give you advice but what happens is ALL up to you.
This is my story and maybe this will help you.


Five years ago a met a man whom I really loved and cared about. I gave 
this man every thing possible (meaning help) I hoped he would change
and in my heart I had my self believeing that he would really change
Well this went on for years and I kept telling him to please stop.
But this did not work, my parents knew about it and tried everything
possible to make me get away from him but it didn't work I had to 
learn out on my own that this man just wasn't going to chance.
So I told him I was leaving him and then things got worse he told
me (he promised me) things were going to get better.  But they didn't
So one day I just packed my things and left.  And let me tell you it
it was hell you knew you loved him and still thought well maybe some-
day he would change.  But it doesn't then I met a terrific guy and
now Im happier than I could have ever been in my whole life.  I
met him 2 months after I left this SO, and he helped me work through
everything. When I met him I was by no means ready for another
relationship but it just happened and Im versy happy that it did.
I don't wnat to tell you to run after Mike becasue that might not
be right for you.  But what I do want is you to PLEASE leave its
hard really I KNOW! and people that haven't gone through it can't
understand why your with him but I do.  So please listen from
experience.  you probably won't becasue if your anything like me
its going to be the hardest thing of your life that you will ever
do.

I hope this helps please let us know what you decide.

    Re: .2  The EAP number is 1-800-325-4939.
    
    And if Bob hasn't changed in 7 yrs., he isn't going to change now
    unless he has to.  He has no reason to change if you continue to stay 
    with him and care for him.
    
    Try leaving Bob on his own for a while and see how he gets by. 
    If he goes to another woman, you know is "love" for you was out
    of his dependence on you for day-to-day care.
    
    If he doesn't clean up his act or agree to seek professional help,
    he has no desire to change for you OR himself.
    
    If he makes attempts to change his ways out of fear of loss of
    you, then you may have something to base a continued relationship
    on.
    
    If Mike isn't your cup-of-tea, try steering clear of him for a while
    too.  If you need financial or emotional support, try your TRUE
    friends (family, peers, old school buddies, neighbors or whomever);
    the ones you have counted on in the past for advice and support.
    
    Professional help is needed for Bob first.  If he gets over the
    chemical hurdles and wants to start working on your relationship,
    then you should both seek relational counseling.      

Have you considered Al-anon or a similar group for yourself?  As others 
have already said, all the love in the world isn't going to make Bob 
change, and clinging to a love that is destroying you is not healthy for 
you.  You may need help and support in following through on a program of 
'tough love', and a group like may be able to give it.

I know this is a hard thing to accept, but 'standing by him' is
hurting you, and even if you are willing to sacrifice yourself, it is
hurting your children.  They will grow up in an abusive home, knowing
only that people close to each other hurt each other all the time and
that if you want to be loved you cannot say 'no' to abuse and neglect,
you have no right to protect yourself.  They will see you hurt and they
will be hurt, and they will learn to believe that it is their fault and
there must be something wrong with them.  That's a lot of heavy baggage
to lay on an innocent little baby, and I'm sure it's not what you want 
for them or yourself.  

I think it is best to leave and be on your own.  You may need 
protection, in the form of restraining orders and such.  There have been 
tragic cases of courts that did not act to protect abused women, but 
there is at least some support to be had there.  A shelter for battered 
women may be able to assist you -- they are experienced at dealing with 
vengeful husbands/boyfriends.  You need to recover your own self-esteem, 
and make that a top priority.  Another relationship will not provide the 
answer.  Just like Bob, you need to find the will and ability to change 
your life within yourself.  That's a tall order, and there will no doubt 
be many false starts.  You needn't hold it against yourself if you take 
comfort from another relationship, but you should try to hold on to the 
idea that your priorities are whatever serves to increase your own 
independence, healing, and self-respect.

"This may not sound like much right now but "A person whom doesn't love himself,
cannot love someone else""

How odd... when I first read this, I thought you were speaking of Anon. Then I
realized that it could very well be applied to her.  Lack of self-love is often
present in people who choose to stay in abusive situations with addicts in the
hope of rescueing them.  It might also be why she cannot love Mike. 

I hope I haven't gone over the line, just a thought.

I would get away from both of them for a while, then think about what you want.
By staying with Bob, you are 'enabling' him to stay the same, not helping him to
change. 
 
JMB

    Al-anon was a life-saver for me when I was in a relationship with
    an alcohol abuser.  The person that has to change is you.  You are
    the only one that you can change.  Sometimes changes only happen
    when the pain is strong enough to motivate.  Human beings are amazing
    in their resilience and tolerance for uncomfortable situations.
    I sense that you feel that your options are to take one man or the
    other because you don't want to hurt them in any way and you aren't
    very sure of your ability to stand alone.  It sounds like "the lady
    or the tiger".  I really feel for you.  See if you can make your
    choices from your head and your heart and not from desperation.
    See if EAP, Al-anon, your family, friends will help.  The last thing
    you need to dig yourself deeper.  The first to to create as many
    options as you can.  And I send you peace to help smooth the path.
    
    Dondi 

    I also think that if you don't love Mike, the security benefits
    that are so attractive now will pale in the future and you will
    find yourself in another painful situation.
    
    Is Mike the father of the baby you're carrying?  If so, would he
    be willing to help support that child after the baby is born?  That
    might ease your financial pressure a bit, allow you to be somewhat
    independent, and still date Mike if you feel like you aren't sure
    one way or the other.
    
    Best to you.
    

    My heart goes out to you.  
    
    I know when you're in the middle of hurt and difficulties like
    this, and with the little ones to worry about too, it's almost
    impossible to see beyond the present situation to the world
    outside or the world that could be.  It's as if our minds react to
    psychic pain by withdrawing into the smallest circle they can
    comprehend, and staying there.  And when someone, be they friend
    or lover, touches us, it can feel like a lifeline when it's really
    just a touch from a whole wider world out there. 
    
    It becomes almost impossible to remember that we're strong,
    independent, intelligent women with choices in what we do and the
    strength to make those choices. 
    
    Don't marry Mike.  Please.  You'd be using him, and that's not
    fair to him or to yourself.  He'll be hurt and you're too strong
    to need to stoop to that kind of manipulation. 

    We don't love other people because they're perfect, or because
    they make us feel good, or stop loving them because they have
    problems.  We love them for who and what they are, and sometimes
    that package comes with an awful lot of pain and trouble that has
    to be worked through.  Right now, if you love Bob, you have to
    think of what is the loving thing to do for him -- and that may
    mean not continuing to live with him.  You may have to tell him,
    "Bob, I love you dearly, but you are destroying me and the
    children, and I can't go on like this." 

    I think what I'd do in your situation is to try to get away from
    Bob, from Mike, and from everything for a few days and try to
    think it through.  Right now the daily pain is going to blur your
    vision of yourself and everything.  Some detachment will give you
    the space to catch your breath and look at yourself away from the
    situation you're in. 
    
    You have my best wishes and my prayers.  And my faith that you'll
    use your love and strength to do the best thing for yourself and
    your loved ones.
    
    --bonnie 
    

This answer was sent to me to be entered anonymously
    
    _____________________________________________________

If you've never been in a relationship like this - don't give advice that 
could be dangerous to the one still in the relationship.

It's easy to sit back and say sure, get out of it.  But you don't know how
hard it is, how fearful you are, 

Go with the safe route kid.  Marry the man who loves you and will take care of
you.  Move out from the creep in the dead of night and don't tell him, your 
family or your friends where you are going or what you plan to do.  Leave no
tracks for him to follow.  

Sure, it's easy to tell her to leave both men and go to a shelter.  Bullcrap!
Marriage is the safest place to be in a situation like this.  How do I know?
I lived like this woman for 10 years!  Shackled to a man who "owned" me body
and soul.  If he said breath I breathed.  Beatings?  Not until the last two
years.  Try two stabbings, hair pullings, slappings, other women, drugs, 
liquor abuse, and the list goes on and on.  He had even offered me to his 
friends.  I lived in perpetual fear of him.  I had no money to go anywhere, 
my check and his went to pay the rent and the booze bills.  I don't drink,
he was an alcoholic.  Why stay with such a person?  Easy.  I loved him.  I
love him still.  Truly addicted to him I was.  And afraid of him too.  I did
leave him many times and each time he tracked me down and dragged me back.
Sometimes at the point of a knife or gun.  I was "his woman" and he was
"my man"and nothing would change that.  Then I got smart.  He finally had 
another woman on the side and I gathered up my courage and got out.  I
married another man and when the other one came looking for me - it was a 
different situation. I was a married woman and my husband was not about to 
let anyone harrass me.

 Now I live in a completely different world.  No more beatings.  No more fears.
I can sleep nights and feel secure and protected.

That's what this girl can have too.   SERENITY!  It's the best thing on earth.
PEACE.  HAPPINESS.  My husband has given me back my self-esteef and self-worth.
And a lot more.

Forget the advise to leave them both and go awy and start over.  Where would
you go and with what?  And who's to say your man won't come after you with a
knife or a gun and drag you back?  And what of your children?  

The choice is up to you.  Live free and die, or marry and live.

    
    
    I was also involved for 3  years with a multiple addiction person.
    I joined ALNON when things seemed the bleakest and this was what
    really helped me to understand myself better.   I found out that
    all the things that I thoaght I was doing to help David were in
    reality preventing him from getting help for himself. 
    
    In the end he gave up the booze but never gave up the drugs.  The
    funny thing was that in a way I loved him less when he was acholol
    free.   I am not saying this would happen to you but for me I needed
    to be the MIGHTY RESCUER so that I would be too busy to deal with
    my own issues and  problems (which I had plenty).   
    
    Year after David became sober (from booze anyways) I left with the
    kids.  I bought a junky ($150) station wagon and moved in with a
    friend.  We literally had only our clothes and 3 beds.  When the
    friend didn't work out I sent my kids to my moms and I stayed in my
    car (fortunely not for too long).   That was 5 years ago.   
    
    I spent Three years alone and grew so much!!!!   3 years
    ago I bought my own home, 2 years ago I married and old and dear
    friend.   9 months ago we had our first child together, and in Jan
    of our last child will be born.
    
    I guess my advice to you would be to really get to know yourself
    and find out what you want for you without Mike or Bob (hope I got
    the names right)   Although I had met my current husband during
    the time I was living with David, he moved away before anything
    too serious could happen.   I firmly believe it was the best thing
    that ever happen to me, for the first time in my life I had no out
    side distrations to prevent my dealing with me. 
    
    Best wishes!!!!   Remember you DESERVE the best life has to offer
    and never settle for 2nd best.
    
    Susan Chadsey
    

    
    
    I strongly suggest that you stop having babies until your
    life is in order.  The more children you have, the more
    dependent you will be on others.  You need to be able to
    take care of yourself.  Financially, emotionally, and 
    physically.  If and when you settle into a permenent com-
    mitment, you will still have the knowledge that you ARE
    able to care for yourself if necessary.  And THAT knowlege
    is freedom.
    
    Deborah
    
    

    re .14
    I'm so glad you're in a safe and secure place now.  Your life sounded
    like a first class nightmare.  Again, none of us have much
    desire to change our lives drastically until the pain of it all
    gets to be too much to bear.  Love comes in many forms.  There are
    those times that love gets knotted up in webs of addiction, fear,
    and hopelessness.  Having to make decisions between a rock and a
    hard place is tormenting.  First, keep the body safe.  Get you,
    the baby and the new one to come in a place where Bob cannot hurt
    you.  If you're damaged or dead, the other choices don't matter.
    Second, get moral support, keep in touch with us all, take in all
    our caring and good wishes.  Let yourself feel good about yourself
    as best as you can at this time.  Respect yourself, care about
    yourself, nurture yourself.  Third, when you feel the time, make
    the choices.  Please don't browbeat yourself into desperation choices.
    You can hide awhile, you can change your mind, you can do alot of
    things.  Be able to look yourself in the heart.
    
    Dondi 

another anonymous reply...





      My heart goes out to the author of Topic #48 of Womannotes. I
recently attended a daylong workshop on Addictive Relationships...
........................

      Anyway, it was a very interesting seminar, but not really what
I'd expected. It was much more crowded than I'd thought it might be. I
counted just over 400 seats and most were filled........ The speaker 
was an energetic ex-actress turned psycologist... The first half of the day
was just her talking about basic pathology. She handed out a small
amount of literarture that was frighteningly accurate in describing
how one feels when at the wrong end of such a relationship. She called
it Co-Dependance. .................. it largely centered on the fact
that the person you're supposed to be addicted to is badly abusing you
physically.

      The afternoon was spent doing specific exercises. One was to
write a letter to the most toxic person of your life. The idea was to
follow a pre-prescribed pattern to confront the person who'd so
terribly affected your life. The rest of the day was with 5
volunteeers from the audience in exercises to expose how you really
feel about this person. 


*********************************************************************
      Here is a reprint, without permission of course, of the few
useful course handouts from the Addictive Relationships seminar. There
were also a few useful tidbits that I scribbled down during the day,
and they are also included.


                   CHARACTERISTICS OF CO-DEPENDANCY

1. My good feeling about me depend on being liked by you.

2. My good fellings about me depend on your approval.

3. Your unhappiness makes me unhappy. My energies go to solving your
problems or relieving your pain no matter what the emotional cost is
to me.

4. My energies go into pleasing you. I believe that pleasing me is
selfish.

5. My energies go into protecting you from the consequences of your
behavior. I will lie for you, cover up for you and never let other
people say anything bad about you.

6. My self worth increases if I can help you solve your problems.

7. I try very hard to get you to do things my way.

8. I ignore the things that are important to me. I spend my time doing
things that are important to you.

9. I don't pay attention to how I feel or what I want. I pay attention
to how you feel and what you want.

10. My fear of being rejected by you controls what I say and do.

11. My fear of your anger controls what I say or do.

12. I give too much of myself in order to get you to love me. I only
feel safe when I make myself indispensable to you.

13. I feel more alive in a relationship that is full of excitement,
drama, and uncertainty.

14. I am perfectionistic and overly critical of myself. I blame myself
for everything that goes wrong.

15. The struggle to get you to love me dominates my life. I am
constantly searching for the magic key that will make that happen.

16. I spend a lot of time pretending things are fine when they're not.

17. I constantly do things for others that they are capable of doing
themselves.

18. I wish I had more self respect.

19. I don't trust my own perceptions, and am very afraid of being
wrong.

20. I am convinced I can't survive without you and don't feel whole
unless I'm in this relationship.



                          SETTING BOUNDARIES

      The following are some simple rules to follow in your life.

1. I will not allow anyone to physically or verbally abuse me.

2. I will not allow chemical abuse in my home.

3. I will not rescue other people from the consequences of their
alcohol abuse, drug abuse, gambling or other irresponsible behavior.

4. I will not lie to protect anyone from the consequences of
acting-out behavior that is destructive to me, to them, or anyone
else.

5. If other people in my life want to act crazy, that's their
business. But I will not allow them to do it in front of me. Either
they will leave or I will walk away.

6. I will not give up people and activities that are important to me
because other people want me to.

7. I am not willing to take more than 50% of the responsibility for
problems in any relationship.



                  CONFRONTING YOUR TOXIC RELATIONSHIP

      The following exercise seemed to help some people. It was a
letter to be written to the most toxic person in your life. This can
be delivered face to face or by letter, but NEVER by phone. There are
rules.

1. If this is done in real-time (face to face), start the conversation
with the following: "I'm going to say things that I've never said
before. This is important. Please agree to hear me out completely,
without interruption. Then you may say whatever you wish and I will
hear you out, without interruption."  If you don't get agreement to
this, then leave immediately. DO NOT PROCEED.

2. Make the talk/letter have the following form;

      - This is what you did to me.
      - This is how I felt about it at the time.
      - This is how it affected my life. (Make sure you assign
appropriate responsibility here.)
      - This is what I appreciate about you/This is what I resent
about you.
      - This is what I want from you now.

                        ADDITIONAL RANDOM NOTES

      There were a few lines, here and there, worth noting.

- No damage is irrepairable. When you say "You ruined my life", you
really mean "You ruined my life SO FAR".

- Just because the toxic person in your life doesn't remember abusing
you or doesn't agree that it constituted abuse, doesn't mean that it
didn't happen.

- After a confrontation, the balance of power will never be the same.
That is, if you ever get up the nerve to confront the person
responsible for your pain, they will never again have quite so much
power over you. In short, confrontation is always good. (I'm not so
sure I agree with this in all cases.)

- No evil can exist without the cooperation of good people. That is,
the friends of a toxic person can be just as guilty even if they do
not directly participate, because they did not help.

- Never forgive anyone unless they take some responsibility for their
actions.

- Love isn't supposed to hurt.

- When trying to take the next step in recovery, there will always be
things that will feel impossible to do. If you cannot proceed with
what you know you must do, never say "I can't". Say "I have not yet".

- Even if my life experience is not so nearly traumatic as others,
pain experienced by me will fill the space available and will feel
just as bad to me as larger trauma will feel to other, more hardened
people. So never feel like you don't deserve help if it seems that
others have worse problems.

- Raising a child is the only form of love where separation is an
acceptable goal. Therefore, if you or your partner think that the love
you feel cannot last forever, then its not really love at all.

    in re .17
    
    to help prevent some confusion...all the anonymous entries in
    this string are from different people
    
    Bonnie

    
    
    I don't know if this will help any, but here goes.  I was in the
    same type of a situation, but I was playing the Mike role.
    My boyfriend had had a brief relationship with a woman who
    got pregnant.  She told him she was on the Pill, but she really
    wasn't.  She had just been stood up at the alter, and John stopped
    seeing her because she was trying to use him as a substitute for
    her ex.  She didn't love him and he didn't love her.  He loved
    me and I loved him.  She wanted him to marry her to take care of
    her and the baby.  Thank God he didn't.  
    
    	He was living with me when the baby was born and she knew
    that he was in love with me not her.  But she was convinced that
    once the baby was born that he would magically fall in love with
    her.  Well it didn't happen that way.  He did move in to a room
    in her apartment (after she was left with no roommates and a heavy
    rent payment) to try to raise his daughter as a father.  Well we
    continued our relationship through all of this.  Last month she
    moved out on him without any notice.  They are in court today
    to try to work out some type of custody agreement.
    
    	It is getting very ugly because of all the pain each has
    caused the other.  He didn't fall in love with her like she expected.
    Our love has seemed to grow stronger through all of this.
    I guess my advice is to get out on your own for a while.
    Don't rush into a marriage of conveinience thinking that you
    will fall in love with Mike.  You are in love with Bob and until
    you get over that love or he changes for good, you have to think
    of yourself and your children.  Now granted your children should
    have a father to grow up with.  However if some time down the road
    you decide that you will never be able to love Mike and you had
    married him,  it would be ten times worse to put yourself and your
    children through a divorce.  You have already stated that Mike
    deserves someone who will love him.  Give yourself both a chance
    to find the love you both want separately
    
    hope that helps a little

    God, what a situation! Previous replies have said a lot of what
    I would've said, but I'll see if I can add a few things.
    
    (1) I agree with some of the previous replies. You say that you
    "know" that if you stick by and support Bob, he'll change and
    things will get better. Except that you've doing just that for
    seven years, and nothing *has* changed, has it?
    
    (2) You say that you love Bob. How? Why? What is it in Bob that
    makes you love him? (These are rhetorical questions. Don't tell
    *us* the answers, tell yourself.)  Is it really love you feel,
    or some sense of loyalty, or perhaps just an evocation of the
    happier times in your relationship?
    
    (3) You say that you don't love Mike. Is that because there isn't
    a passionate spark between you? Sometimes the greater love is the
    one that is more subtle.
    
    (4) I also agree with the previous replies that say (or imply)
    that your first duty is to children, born and unborn, and that
    your second duty is to yourself. As hard as it is to think of it
    this way, it essentially comes down to the fact that it's either
    Bob or the children. Bob is an adult, and has made his choice
    on how to live his life. Your children aren't capable of making
    their own choices, so they need you more than Bob does.
    
    (5) Regarding Mike, have you told him exactly how you feel about
    him? If you have, does he feel that you will "grow" to love him?
    You might tell him that you appreciate his help a lot, and will
    accept it again for the sake of the kids if he's willing to give
    it "with no strings attached", but that at the moment you don't
    feel willing to marry him.
    
    --- jerry

    Dear anon.,
    
        There are several factors to be considered in this and I think
    that the advise that you have gotten so far has been good.  Leave
    them both for a while, and see where things stand.  But the
    relationship with Mike must be on a back burner until all else is
    straightened out.  The military will not let you live together on
    post, ( you must provide a marriage certificate in order to qualify
    for on post housing), and I truly think that you need some time
    to square away both you and your kids after seven years in an abusive
    situation.  
    
    You have stated that you know he can change.....apparently he doesn't
    want to.  He must hit his own personal "bottom" as it were, and
    you may need to leave him for that to happen.  I imagine that you
    are a bit of an enabler in the relationship, and he must face the
    facts of what his substance abuse has led to. 
    
    One last note, if you do develope a relationship with Mike and you
    are worried about retaliation from Bob, don't.  The military takes
    care of its own, and Bob can be prevented from coming onto Ft. Devens
    fairly easily.
    
    
    Best of luck to you!
    Sue

    To Anon.0,
    
    	My first response to your note was, 'get out, NOW!'  Not an
    easy task, I know; but still my gut level response none the less.
    
    	Three years ago, my sister [who had had addiction problems of
    her own] was planning to marry a man she loved completely.  He,
    also was a recovering addict.  They were living together and from
    time to time he was somewhat abusive, albeit mostly in the emotional
    sense.  About a month before the wedding, he slapped her around
    a little.  She wrote it off as 'pre-wedding jitters' and was sure
    he'd never hit her again. Shortly after the wedding, she was pregnant
    and he professed unbounded joy and started buying wonderful things
    for the baby to be -- and began to slap her around just a little
    bit more.  Of course, he was always sorry afterward and their were
    tears of recrimination.  He loved my sister and promised to change
    and she loved him and was committed to helping him become well.
    [He had begun to drink and use drugs again by this time]
    
    	When my sister was 4-1/2 months pregnant something snapped and
    he beat her very badly, kicked her in the stomach several times
    and locked her out of the house. [He still doesn't remember much
    of it].  She hitchhiked to the bus station, begged busfare and rode
    8 hours to arrive on my parents door-step.  In the ER, they found
    that her baby was still doing fine, but she had a ruptured ear-drum,
    a broken jaw and three cracked ribs. He called and wrote and begged
    her to come back.  She decided to wait until after the baby was
    born, but she was determined to return.  When he turned up in a
    somewhat altered state for his daughter's baptism, my sister's heart
    was broken; but she never went back.
    
    My sister is the first to say that if she hadn't been afraid of
    losing her baby she would probably still be there taking the abuse.
    She loved this man very much; and in his own way, he was convinced
    that he loved her -- he still is.  But he has been in and out of
    treatment centers for the past two years and has beaten up on at
    least one other woman living with him since.
    
    --------------
    
    I don't know what advice there is to give, but I do have opinions.
    
    First, I'd say get out [if Bob is the type to come after you, you'd
    have to make it inconvenient]
    
    Next, I don't think it's a good idea to flee one flawed relationship
    for another.  [Knowing that you don't love him may not be an issue
    for Mike right now, but it may be later and he may be greatly
    disappointed if your feelings don't change.]  On the other hand,
    if you are both comfortable with this state of emotions and know
    that it could turn into a short-term solution, I don't think it's
    anyone else's affair. [It leaves me cold, and _I_ wouldn't be happy
    with the odds, but...]
    
    Last, I've seen many references to your first priority being your
    children.  I want to say that while they _are_ dependent upon you,
    that they are no more important in the sight of God than you are
    and, barring something threatening to them, that your first priority
    should be yourself.  If you are safe and happy, you could hardly
    help but make a better life for them.
    
    [I will now shamefacedly get off my soapbox...]
    
      Ann

This is a reply from the base note author
    _________________________________________________
    
I'd like to thank everyone for their suggestions and input.  Now the rest
is up to me.  

Re .23

Right now I am not living in the same house as Bob.  I left for the same reason
your sister left.  I am pregnant and even tho I can physically take being hurt 
by  him this baby can't.  But if I don't do something soon it will only be a 
matter of time before he brings me back.  

re rest 

.14 comes very close in describing our relationship and my body can't take 
much more neither can my nerves.  someone in an early note mentioned talking to family etc... The
women in our family see things in this light "If you are doing the right 
things at home, a man will not hit you, cheat on you, do drugs etc..."  I am 
alittle tired of hearing "what did you do this time"? and when your already 
feel at fault its hard to shake that feeling when you hear this so often.  Its
just a mess I guess.  But I try to stay away from the "family" as much as 
possible.  

Thanks again for the advice and for those who shared their stories, its very
much appreciated. 

    Dear Anonymous,
    
    Perhaps you think that the people urging you to leave Bob and
    Mike do not realize that they are asking you to go blind and
    step off a cliff.
    
    They realize it, and they know it is terrifying, but they know
    that the actuality is nowhere near as frightening.  The blindness
    is temporary; when you turn away from the future you know, it
    takes a while to see the path the new future is taking.  The
    cliff is not as high as you think it is in the blackness.  It
    may be six inches, it may be six feet.  But remember that there
    are people who will be there when you land, and they will help
    you.
    
    						Ann B.
    
    P.S.  Wherever you go, change the locks, and get a new, unlisted
    phone number.

    Hi--
    
    First of all, my heart and prayers go out to you now.  I wish I
    could say something that would truly help, but as you know yourself
    (and others have pointed out, rightly), YOU must make the final
    decision.
    
    I went through a similar situation myself, and I'd like to tell
    you what I did.
    
    Some years ago, I was in a relationship with a man who had both
    drug and alcohol problems.  I was very much in love with him, and
    as happens when you really love someone, I overlooked a lot.  The
    abuse was never physical, but mental;  and that hurt almost constantly.
    I frequently had to drag him (a few times physically) out of bars,
    and often I waited up all night, never knowing where he was or when
    he would come home.  Whenever I got up my courage and confronted
    him with his actions, he would cry and promise to be better;  I
    would comfort him and believe him.  Every time an incident happened
    (and I won't bore you with them all), I would always forgive him,
    and try to forget--until the next time.  A year into the relationship,
    his "ex-wife" had another baby;  his baby.  I found out later, after
    we broke up that they had slept together a few times during our
    relationship also.  
    
    Why would a person stay with a man like this for four years you
    might ask?  (Any of you who have been in similar instances can answer
    it--those of you who haven't, you truly cannot judge.  Believe me,
    you *can't* know until it happens to you.)  The answer:  you do
    love the man, and you do believe that if only you can
    love/help/nurture/comfort/strengthen/stand by him enough, you can
    change him.  I also saw myself as The Great Healer.  I was so thrilled
    by the fact that this man so obviously needed me that I let myself,
    my feelings, and my better judgement slide in order to help him.
    Fortunately, I was seeing a counsellor and gradually realized what
    I was doing to myself.  It took me a while, but I finally cut it
    off.  I told him clearly that it was over, why it was over, and
    that my love for him had died.  And I left.
    
    Now what happened after was completely unexpected.  This same man,
    four years later, does not drink or do drugs any longer, has a new
    career that he went to school for, has a new and positive outlook
    on life, and is getting married.  He also is seeing a counsellor.
    I do not see him socially anymore, but do run into him occasionally.
    My feelings toward him now are totally different;  I am glad for
    his happiness and apparent change of heart and attitude.  I still
    do not love him, but I wish him the best of luck.  
    
    I won't say here that my leaving him MADE him change, but I do say
    that by leaving I made a definite statement that I could no longer
    live with him the way he was.  I left for my own preservation and
    mental health.  Perhaps this helped to make him see himself more
    clearly.
    
    I apologize for this running on so long--I don't think I've ever
    written a note this long--!  But I wanted you to know my story,
    and what helped me was to help myself first, and maybe it helped
    HIM.
    
    Again, I hope for the best for you, and pray everything works out
    for you and your children, and for the men in your life.  Just please
    remember that you can't really know what goes on in another person's
    mind, but you can know your OWN mind.
    
    With love,
    
    Jane
    
    
    
    few times during it.  
    
    

    Dear Anonymous Noter:
    
    Don't fall into the trap of letting well-meaning (?) people convince
    you to feel guilty that it is somehow something you are doing that
    causes the drinking problems, drug problems, inability to control
    his temper, etc.  I was married to a man like that; he finally
    left me, and started mistreating his new girlfriend.  They married,
    and she divorced him three months later.  I wish I had been that
    smart; I kept thinking (for 6 years of mostly pain) that it was
    my fault somehow.  It wasn't, and it isn't YOUR fault either.  People
    choose their own behavior.  It may be in reaction (sane or otherwise)
    to something someone else in their life is doing, but you are NOT
    to blame for it, so do not let anyone convince you to do the guilt
    trip.  You deserve better.  (Me, too!  And this time around, I married
    a man with a sweet temper and kind mannerisms.)
        
    /Charlotte

    I'm glad I found this note.  I have a daughter who is going through
    this, too.  I am beside myself with worry and I just don't know
    how to help her.
    
    Last Wednesday at 11:30 PM I got a call that she was being taken
    by ambulance to the hospital.  It took us an hour to get there (she
    lives in MA an my husband and I in NH).  Thank God she was okay
    this time.  They kept her in the hospital for most of the night
    watching for a concussion.  He had repeatedly punched her in the
    head.  She has 2 children, one is 4 and the other is 3 months. 
    The 4 year old watched the whole thing.  Needless to say she is
    extremely frightened and upset.
    
    The police were called and he ran.  The next day I took her to court
    and she swore out a restraining order and filed charges against
    him for assault and battery.  There is a warrant out for his arrest
    now.  We heard through his family that he has checked himself into
    the physch ward at a local hospital to get help. 
    
    This is not the first time he has done this to her.  The last time
    was while she was pregnant.  He made her all kinds of promises that
    he would get help and even started counseling so she took him back.
    Once he was back in the house, he stopped going to counseling.
    Just my opinion, but I think he checked himself into the hospital
    to avoid arrest.  
    
    What I can't understand is how any woman can believe a man honestly
    loves her when he abuses her this way.
    
    I am afraid for her, afraid the next phone call I get will be from
    the coroner.  And I am terrified for the children and am looking into
    my rights as a grandparent if she takes him back again.
                           
    And I am afraid for you, too.  I pray that both of you make the
    right decision for yourselves and for your children.
    

    Re: .28
    
    I would think that his being self-checked into the psych ward would
    not void criminal charges against him.  Do the police know where
    he is?
    

    Re: .29
    
    Don't know for sure, but my husband plans to look into that today.
    
    

    
    	RE: .31
    
    	 Where did you come to reach those conclusions from the base
    	note?  Or are you saying that ALL people additicted to drugs
    	and/or alcohol are so because of childhood upbringing?
    
    	 That seems to be an all too easy out for the individual not
    	to take responsibility for their own actions. It's alot easier
    	for them to pass THEIR problems off by saying "I can't help
    	the way I am, my parents were so bad in raising me".
    
    	G_B

    in re .31
    
    It is 'her' family that .0 is talking about not Bob's.
    
    

    >You mentioned that you "stay away from the family". Which family?
    >His? 

    I was referring to my family.  I do stay away from his family also 
    becuse they live out of state.  When we visit its always something to
    remember.  I noticed that around his family he likes to "show-off" his
    authority, so to speak.  I know his oldest brother is going thru with 
    a divorce now and used to physically abuse his wife.  He is also an 
    alcoholic/addict.  Their father is an alcoholic.  They grew up in an 
    abusive home and had a tough time growing up.  

    I do believe that if he sobered up the rest would fall into place.  Maybe
    I am wrong.  I do know that when he drinks/uses it makes his temper much 
    worse than it would be if he hadn't been drinking/using.  I think what you 
    said makes perfect sense.  I don't think Bob is a bad person.  He is a 
    sick person, his addictions and his abusiveness are a disease.  But he is 
    not even trying to get well yet.


    

    RE: .31
    
         This person may be sick.  He may have grown up in a sick home.
    
         ***** BUT *****
    
         THAT STILL DOES NOT GIVE HIM THE RIGHT TO ABUSE OTHERS!
    
         I grew up in an abusive home but I don't hit my wife or subject
         her to mental abuse.  I think that every one is resposible
         for their own actions.
    
         If a person has problems goes out and seeks help and trys to
         improve themselves, that person is on the road to success.
         If that person does not think they have a problem and continue
         to abuse others then they should get the boot.
    
    Patrick

    
    I sometimes just don't understand people.  It seems clear that the
    situation in which you find yourself is unhealthy (emotionaly),
    and dangerous (physicaly).  If _you_ were the only one involved in
    the situation, you might be able to justify spending weeks and months
    pondering if he is or is not a good man, or if he would or would
    not straighten out if he would stay sober.  But _you_ are _not_
    the only one involved!  Since there are children involved, I don't
    think you have the luxury of ambivalence.  Abusive home lives damage
    children.  It is as simple as that.  Though you are not the primary
    cause of this damage, you are in a position to put a stop to it.
    As a mother, I don't understand how you can allow the damage to
    continue for one day longer.  You cannot "make" him stay sober (or
    do anything else, for that matter!).  What you _can_ do is remove
    yourself and your child from the damaging situation.
    
    'Course that's just _my_ opinion.
    
    Marion                                                

Reply from  base note writer
    
    
re .36

When I entered 0 I had already moved out of my home.  My question in 0
was a matter of continued safety.  I don't need advice on whether or not 
to stay directly in that situation.  I am out of it.  But I am still 
having a lot of problems with him.  Thats why I entered my note about marrying
another man who loves me and will protect me.  Even tho I have moved out,
have a restraining order etc...it has not stopped him.  My top priority is
my children.  If Bob began to get help for himself I would want him to 
be the father to his children that I know he could be if he put down the
bottle and the drugs.  Thats where the confusion sets in...as long as he
uses he will continue to bother/harrass me.  I am talking about serious harrass-
ment.  I was thrown thru a glass door over the weekend.  I can only do so much.
If I marry Mike I wouldn't have to worry about this type thing continuing to 
happen.  I will be able to really 'feel' safe for once in my life.  I don't know
if you know what its like, but when I go into my car at night I worry about him 
hiding in the garage or outside the house.  Or not being able to sleep the
whole night thru because I am afraid he is out getting drunk and will soon come
over and break in and try to "literally" drag me back home.  I could go on on
about how unsafe I feel but I won't.  He is a totally different person when he 
is not on something or drunk.  But thats not very often anymore.  

So my question in 0. was about whether to get married seeing as that seems to
be the SAFEST thing to do.  Or continue to stay alone and pray that Bob will
get help and not continue to make my life miserable.  

  

    Although getting married will undoubtably make you feel 'safe',
    
    I have but one question,  Do you LOVE this man that you 'might marry?
    
    Marrying to feel safer, in my book, is not a reason to get married.
    
    Have you gone to the police again??  You must have once, because
    you have an order on him, have you gon to them continually???
    
    After you report that he has broken the order, more than once as
    you say, they will take action.  
    
    I know this as fact, not hearsay.  You should CONSTANTLY call the
    police when he arrives or what ever.  I know the judicial system
    is not the greatest but some do really care.  
    Have you tried some sort of crisis line???  They may be able to
    help you too.  
    
    Don't let this continue!  Also, don't marry for safety, marry for
    love.
    

You need to do what you need to do.  Along with lots of others, I felt 
(and still feel) that being on your own to sort things out is the ideal
situation, as long you could arrange to be safe.  However, real life
doesn't always give us ideal options.  Being safe has got to be your 
top priority.  If the courts aren't doing you any good, then you need 
more help.  I would try to get your ex picked up for violating the 
restraining order, but I realize our legal system doesn't take domestic
abuse seriously until the woman is dead. 

If marrying Mike will save your life, and its the only choice you see 
for yourself that will do that, then I think you should do it.  Our 
culture places a great deal of burden on marriage these days -- we all
want a Prince/ss Charming who will inspire us with delirious romantic
passion. S/he doesn't exist, and no human relationship can be like that
(at least not forever).  Marriage for companionship and not for a
blazing romantic passion is not a despicable thing.  You owe it to Mike
to be honest with him about how you feel, and you should keep in mind
that, in time, he may want a different kind of relationship. Since you
are going through a period of great personal change right now, your
needs may evolve differently over time as well. You may evolve in
compatible or incompatible ways.  This isn't necessarily bad, it just
happens.  If you can both be honest, giving each other whatever you have
to give when you have it, then that's probably the most anyone can
really expect anyway. 

Whatever you do, you need to keep yourself alive, and you need to 
respect yourself as much as possible while doing it.  It can be a 
difficult balance to strike, but worrying about the finer points of
human relations is a luxury of those whose survival is secure.

    I have had a few friends who were in this situation, so I'll jump
    in with a (true) scenario I've seen with more than one person.
    
    re: calling the police
    
    it is hard to dial 411 when someone is beating the shit out of you.
    and he doesn't exactly warn you that he's coming; if you see him
    early enough in advance that you can dial 411, he can very easily
    rip the phone out of your hands before you can tell them _anything_.
    
    even when you _can_ get enough info through to the cops, he is gone
    by the time they get there.  if they write out a warrant on him,
    they have to find him which can be hard to do.  when they _do_ get
    him, maybe three weeks later, and put him in jail, he will come
    and beat you even worse the second he gets out (after all, it's
    "your fault" he got put in jail).
    
    when someone becomes totally obsessed with controlling (owning)
    you, they will stop at _nothing_.
    
    the healthiest thing in the world is to GET OUT and GET SAFE!  it's
    hard enough to even WANT to get away from the person you love...
    
    to anon: if Mike doesn't beat you, and is willing to protect you
    from Bob, MARRY HIM!
    
    Lee

    
    	To .0 -
    
    I'm glad you realize the importance of the "family" connection with
    regards to Bob's present condition. Getting him to realize it too
    *may* set him in a direction towards self "improvement", cause for
    me anyway just knowing the reason for certain personal tendancies
    was quite a revelation. *Not knowing anything about why* you are
    the way you are, or having the reasons buried so deep that it's lost,
    will keep that viscious circle unbroken. Knowing it, you can face
    it directly! It's hard, but at least you know what to look at. I
    deleted my reply, after I knew you read it, because it was presumptous,
    a bit cold and crass. I really didnt mean to sound so "high on the
    horse" or whatever...I'm happy, however, that you understood and
    that I possibly did some good for you and Bob by writing it!!!
    
    I reached my conclusions by sighting several points expressed in
    .0...which I wont spell out here. Together, they "point" to the
    problem that I claimed Bob has. I 'spose that the reason could be
    used as an excuse for continued behavior in a like manner, but I
    believe that most people HAVE NO IDEA *why* they're doing these things
    and, instead of an excuse, this knowledge could be used as motivation
    to get better. I dont wish to sound like I'm advocating
    irresponsibility either, for I do believe that we are responsible
    for our own actions. I *had* a roomate, until he came home drunk
    and abusive one night, pretty much telling me exactly what he thought
    about me. 'Shoulda seen his tune change by the next morning! Sorry,
    pal, you *have* to be responsible for your own actions; I *cannot*
    let you slide this time; find a new place to live, a new bass player
    for your band, and a new friend, simple as that. Maybe next time you wont 
    drink that much...to where Dr Jeckyl turns into Mr Hyde!     
                              
    Unfortunately, he only took it as "another injustice comitted against
    me by this cruel_cruel world". I didnt fully realize this a couple of 
    months ago, but he came from a completely dysfunctional childhood,
    having the top 3 worst things that could possibly be done "under his belt":
    
    	1. He was completely abandoned by his original parents.
    	2. He was abused emotionally by his adopted parents and their
    	   family system.
    	3. His adopted father provided an alcoholic male role model.
    
    As such, his present behavior is completely described by his past
    upbringing! Aquaintances describe him anywhere from "pretty much
    an alright guy" to "pretty far gone"... Although my choice to eliminate
    him from my life may not have been the best thing *for him*, it
    certainly was the best thing for *me*!
    
    
    Anyone interested in the theory of "Functional Family Systems" and
    "Family Dysfunctionality" should read the book "Bradshaw on: The
    Family" By John Bradshaw. The Acton bookstore in the Collage mall
    on rt 2A usually has it. I highly recommend it! In this book, the
    author claims that addictions, as a result of family dysfunctionality,
    touch the lives of 93% of everyone in this country.
                                       
    	Joe Jas

    re .37:
    
    Myself, I cannot imagine marrying someone for the sole purpose of
    protection from someone else. There must be some way of losing Bob.
    Leave. Do not tell _anyone_ where you are going, just go, and leave
    no trace. 
    
    I am urged to say that one should marry for love and only for love,
    but that isn't quite true. Marrying for love is a pretty recent
    phenomenon, and is not all that reliable anyway. If Mike loves you,
    _and_ your children, and you have at least some affection for him,
    then I can't say that marrying him would be a _bad_ decision. Love
    can grow. Security and friendship are not _bad_ reasons to marry.
    Ideally there would also be deep abiding love, but it probably is
    not essential. But do not take this as a recommendation either way,
    I'm just throwing out more fuel for the fire.
    
    re .40:
    
    I hate to interject a nit in such a serious subject, but being the
    uncouthe louse that I am, I will anyway.
    
    Please do not dial 411 in an emergency. 911 is the standard emergency
    number. 411 is generally local directory assistance.
    
    
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
                                                 

>    	Buy a gun and learn to use it.
    

This is not bad advice.  Keep in mind that "self-defense" is a tenuous 
concept, at least in the commonwealth of Massachusetts [it may be different 
elsewhere, especially in Western states].  Here you are not allowed to use 
"deadly force" unless you can categorically prove that you had absolutely
no other option to save your life.  A recent course case in this state 
tried a woman for murder because she shot a man who invaded her home 
with a gun, forced her and her children into a cellar, threatened to
kill the children, and tried to rape the mother.  The prosecution argued
that the woman did not need to use deadly force because she could have
escaped by throwing the children out the cellar window and crawling out
herself (all while a man is holding a gun on them, of course).  She was
only acquitted when the jury was taken to the home and the defense
proved that the woman could not fit through the window. 

More and more women are fighting back and killing their abusers in self-
defense, but the courts seem uncertain how to deal with this.  Women who 
are convicted of violent crimes get overwhelmingly heavier sentences than 
men convicted of similar offenses.  It's a risk that needs to be considered.

I would suggest that you thoroughly document your history of abuse.  Even
if the courts and the police don't necessarily take action, you should
report every act of violence against you.  That way, if it does come down
to a drastic act of self-defense, you won't just be viewed as a hysterical
woman overreacting to an angry boyfriend.  

I would suggest that you also go to EAP.  Social workers (in Mass., don't
know about elsewhere) are required to report family situations where a
child is "at risk", and the state is required to evaluate the case and take
action to protect the child (if not you).  This may work to get more
resources helping you, although the system is overloaded and doesn't always
function. 

Make certain if you have a gun or any other kind of weapon that you know how 
to use it and feel confident doing so.  You do not want it to end up being 
taken away from you and used against you.  Most women are afraid of 
hurting anyone and don't really feel like they have the right to do so.
Those kinds of reservations are likely to affect your ability to act 
decisively.  A self-defense course, like the "model mugging" one talked 
about in our old file, might be a good idea, not just because of techniques 
you might learn, but the kind of confidence to act that it may be able to 
give you.

I had thought at one point of suggesting that you up and move very far
away, like to another state.  However, I realize that that probably means 
giving up whatever family or friends you have that form a support network 
for you, as well as quitting your job and trying to find a new one, along 
with housing and childcare, in a completely unfamiliar location.  This may
not be realistic.  You may not have the financial resources to pack up and
move, and either job hunt from your current location or go without income
while looking for a new job.  Digital may be helpful if you can find an 
internal position that will provide relocation, but this may take more time 
that you have and may not be feasible.  Why should you have to cut
absolutely all ties to anyone and anything worthwhile that you may have in
your life and run like a fugitive when it is your ex who is the criminal? 

    I think I've changed my mind here.  
    
    The impression I had from your base note was that you were still
    living with Bob and wondering what to do about it, and that he had
    only begun to be abusive. But as I've watched your story unfold,
    it's apparent you've already done about all that can be done in
    our present sexist society. 

    I think Joe's probably right about the reasons for Bob's behavior.
    But if *your* family is saying it's *your* fault Bob beats you,
    then they have dysfunction in their pattern, too. It sounds like
    something in that family pattern -- perhaps your father drank and
    beat your mother, or your grandfather and grandmother? -- taught
    you that violence and love go together. Well, if this man is
    throwing you through glass doors, you are liable to find out that
    he loves you to death. Literally. 
    
    The main reason I hesitate to recommend marrying Mike is that I've
    seen too many cases where a woman with a drunken, abusive husband
    simply runs from one abusive man to another.  A childhood friend
    of mine got out of the hospital last month after spending several
    weeks recovering from the beating inflicted by the wonderful,
    charming man who 'rescued' her from her louse of a first husband.
    Now she's back with #1 because #2 taught her to appreciate #1's
    "real virtues."  By that I guess she means he never beats her hard
    enough to make her see a doctor. 

    But if I was in your situation, and I was sure Mike wasn't going
    to beat me -- trading one abusive situation for another would not
    make you any safer -- and marrying him would get me onto a base
    behind a nice tall wire fence with soldiers guarding the gate, I
    think I'd marry Mike . . . then I'd get counselling for myself to
    find out why I was more worried about Bob's drug problems than
    about the fact that he's trying to kill me. 

    --bonnie

> A recent course case in this state tried a woman for murder because she
> shot a man who invaded her home with a gun, forced her and her children
> into a cellar, threatened to kill the children, and tried to rape the
> mother.  The prosecution argued that the woman did not need to use
> deadly force because she could have escaped by throwing the children out
> the cellar window and crawling out herself (all while a man is holding a
> gun on them, of course).  She was only acquitted when the jury was taken
> to the home and the defense proved that the woman could not fit through
> the window. 

	This flies in the face of the "castle rule" which is the Mass. 
exception to the requirement that you "retreat (flee) if you can do so 
safely before using deadly force".  The "castle rule" states that this 
requirement is suspended when you are in your own home under the old 
adage that "a man's home is his castle".

	The three prerequisites to using deadly force in self defense 
are that 1) the force against you must be unlawful force (not against 
cops trying to arrest you); 2) that it must be obvious that there was 
necessity for using it; and 3) that the force must be reasonable under 
the circumstances.

The following is from the base note writer...she had requested me to
    ask for the discussion to cease..
    
    ___________________________________________________________
    
Thanks again for all of your suggestions and replies.  I will look into all
options available to me before making a final decision.  I guess when you feel
backed into a corner its hard to make a rational decision.

    The author of .49 is aware of the request to stop the discussion.
    However, he was concerned about letting faulty and possibly harmful
    information stand without correction. If anyone else feels that
    it's important to add information to this note, please contact one
    of the moderators first.
    
    Thanks for your co-operation.
    Liz Augustine
    Womannotes comoderator