Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    
    
    As I have gotten older I have come to realize that the thing that
    makes me feel confident is when I know that I have nothing to lose
    by my actions.  I also feel that if I am doing something and someone
    else can do it better and they want to do I will turn it over to
    them.  I really do hate to "own" anything I perfer to share.
    
    I do not think that women lack self-confidence but it is just the
    way we are used to seeing it displayed.  I think that men have more
    of a problem with self_confidence then do women and that a lot of
    the bravado they display is to cover up what they lack.  Women are
    much more honest about their feelings and are willing to say that
    they are not sure about something but they also tend not to go charging
    after windmills all the time.
    
    Just my thoughts.
    
    _peggy
    		(-)
    		 |
    			Being able to say "This is something that I
    			don't know" shows more confidence than being
    			able to say "There is nothing that I don't know."
    

    I think men *seem* more self-confident because they've had more
    cultural training to cover up their insecurities and receive more
    cultural punishment for not appearing confident. 

    In addition, more men have been encouraged to do more things, and
    simply doing something and succeeding at it increases one's
    self-confidence immensely.  I'm currently riding a big wave of
    confidence stemming from finding out I can swing a tennis racket
    and get the ball over the net.  A week ago I would have sworn I
    could never do it. 
    
    I don't know how long it will be before my perfectionism catches
    up with me, though.  I'll start thinking that competence isn't
    good enough, I have to be good enough to compete, or something. I
    know more women than men who feel that if you can't be one of the
    best, it's not worth doing.  The men I know seem to think there's
    a level of "good enough" that makes them sometimes seem more
    confident. 

    --bonnie 

In last Sunday's NY Times Magazine, in the Hers section, there was a very
interesting essay on aggresiveness. The replies here lead me to believe
that the amount of agressiveness women have, or display, may be connected
to external perceptions of their self-confidence. And maybe even internal
ones. 

If you're saying to yourself 'Go for it!', you're probably displaying and
feeling confidence.
	Mez

     
    My observations have been that men can give the perception of
    self-confidence whether they feel it or not, whereas women are more
    honest in what they feel and don't emit self-confidence when they
    don't feel it.

    vivian
    

    I would agree that men put on a better show of self-confidence.
    Mostly it's because they are more often in a position where
    they are *supposed* to know what they are doing, so they stick
    it out.
    
    Me? Ninety-nine percent of the time, I'm just a mass of insecurities.
    
    --- jerry

    I wonder how much of the male self-confidence is really another
    version of more agressive behavior and attitudes.  Some of the men
    that I know look confident, sound strong and walk tall, but when
    it comes right down to the inner being, they don't feel any better
    about themselves than I do.  They're shy, insecure, hesitant at
    times too.  They have the "rules" hardwired in their heads  so it's 
    easy for them to maintain a facade of confidence.  Just act aggressive
    enough and people won't penetrate the shell.
    
    Dondi

	I agree that men act more confident than women, but I also
	think they might have more reasons.  Even when they doubt
	their abilities to do a task, they have more support from
	just fitting in to a group.  How many men got to their
	first class in college and walked in to find out all the
	other students were women?  How many were asked whether
	they were seriously dating anyone at a job interview?
	How many men looking to advance look around at their
	group and notice that all the other men are at the same
	level as them or lower?  There are no men in those
	higher positions, and when you ask why you aren't promoted,
	you get told that you don't fit the type of person who is
	at that level.  What if there was no man that you could
	look at and say "He did it, I can too".

	...Karen

    To elaborate a bit on what Karen wrote...
    
    You are doing the same job as <x>, and judge that you are doing
    it as well as he [sic] is.  Then you find you are making less money
    than <x>, AND that your last raise was a smaller percentage than
    his was.
    
    Why would you not feel less self confident than he?  Clearly,
    not only are you doing poorer work than <x>, but your judgement
    is the pits.
    
    And you will find that there are a lot of people out there who
    would rather believe that any individual woman has poor judgement
    than that *their* company contains elements of discrimination.
    
    						Ann B.

    
    	I have always "blamed" my self-confidence on my parents.
    	They were always supportive and downright enthusiastic 
    	about everything I did.
    
    	I remember my father telling me the modesty and humility
    	are wonderful traits as long as you tell everyone how great
    	you are.

    	Success makes one self-confident.  If everything you do is
    	successful; even the small things, (not having a car accident
    	on the way home, remembering your password at work, learning
    	to use the notesfile), it adds to your self-confidences.  Of
    	course, failures don't help, but I try and minimize the damage
    	of failures.
        
    	I have more self-confidence than most people I know.  I base
        much of it on history.  Because I consciously work hard and
    	do not like to fail, I have been successful.  There have been
    	very few things that I have failed at, but when I have, I've
    	learned why and tried not to repeat it.  So my personal history
    	of success only increases my self-confidence.  I don't worry
    	about failing because I know that based on how hard I'm working
    	and how organized I am, I KNOW I won't fail.  And if I fail,
    	I haven't wasted a lot of time, sleepless nights and energy
        worrying.

    	I have seen both wambly males and females.  It is very noticeable
        during an interview.  Accentuate the positive.  No apologies
    	for previous failures.  A willingness to learn.  Looking the
    	interviewer straight in the eye.  All signs of self-confidence.
    
    	Since I know self-confidence is impressive, when I have felt
    	that I was "faking" it, I still try to give the aura of
        self-confidence.  But most of the time, I'm not faking it. 
        I have to know that I am doing well (by my OWN standards) or
        I have to make it better.
    
    	One more thing:  When I was 13, I was invited to a bar mitzvah.
    	I arrived at the synagogue very early and was wandering around
    	to find the right place.  It was the first time I had ever been
    	in a synagogue.  A rabbi approached me and I looked at my feet
    	so he won't catch my eye.  To my dismay, he stopped me anyway.
    	He told me to lift my head and always look everyone in the eye.
    	It was a sign of good manners and friendship.  It made a very
    	strong impression on me.  Just the act of meeting a person
    	eye to eye exudes self-confidence.
       
      
    

    I am a woman who was raised to feel self-confident, in control.
    It appears as if I am unusual that way; people regularly comment
    on my "air of self-assurance".
    
    Funny, though.  To portray that self-confidence, I have had to do
    what so many men are taught to do: ignore, reject, deny, repress
    all my insecurities.  To a certain extent, I think that's a good
    thing to do (else I would be perpetually frozen in indecision).
    Those insecurities do crop up and bite me though, now and then.
    
    An aside, re personal self-confidence: it's a little hard to be
    confident of myself and my well-being when I know all too well that
    any man can walk up and remind me of his ability to do what he wants.
    Rape is an education in power and who has it ...
    
    lt

    Unlike the last couple of noters, I had a hard time
    dealing with self-confidence. As a child and teen, I feel
    I didn't get the support from my parents as I should have.
    A couple of examples: when I was an art major in college,
    I had worked on VERY large abstract paintings. These pieces
    were a part of ME and how I felt. Upon bringing them home,
    I had to endure the comments "we sent you school to produce
    THIS?", "very nice.....now go put them in the basement." Those
    comments struck like a knife.
    Also, when I was dating this guy who was going off to law school,
    we had broken up.....my mother said "what did YOU DO to make
    him want to break up?" I should state here that my mother
    was an alcoholic.
    
    It took me several years in the adult workforce to gain my
    self-confidence back. I am now in a job where my expertise
    is commended and sought after. Self-love and self-confidence
    go hand in hand. There are still some ares where I feel I
    need some improvement with self-confidence.....but I recognize
    them and working on them. I had the opportunity to listen to
    a tape called "the Psycology of Achievement". Some parts
    really struck "home" on the subject of self-love and how
    we were brought up. I recommend that tape to anyone who
    feels the need to understand past experiences and how
    to "let go" of all that baggage.
    

    My life has had its share of pitfalls and foulups to recover from,
    and oddly enough those have added to my self-confidence.
    
    Instead of being afraid I will fail and denying my insecurities, I
    can look them in the face and say, "Well, yes, maybe I won't
    succeed this time.  But I'll do my best, that's all I can do, and
    if I don't make it <shrug>, I know it's not the end of the world.
    I've goofed up before and survived worse. I'll handle this, too."

    --bonnie    

    I agree with the noter who said that getting through bad patches
    increases your self confidence. When I look back at me as a teenager
    and in my early twenties, I was totally lacking in self confidence.
    If someone told me I couldn't do something I believed them!
    
    I went through some very painful experiences, the hardest was losing
    two people who were very close to me. But I came out of all this
    feeling stronger than I ever had before. Now I believe in myself
    and my abilities and can accept what I am no good at. For instance,
    I had my two children in my twenties. I thought I did a good job
    as a mother, but made a lousy housewife! I suffered terrible guilt
    about not being good domestically, I felt I was useless. Then when
    the kids went to school, I went back to work and went from strength
    to strength. Now I accept that I am never going to be housekeeper
    of the year, but who cares? I have a full time job, a husband, two
    great kids (and a horse) and I'm happy.  My neighbour keeps her home 
    like a showhouse,  but admits she can't use a typewriter let alone
    a computer. But she's happy too.
    
    I suppose the moral is that unless you were born oozing S.C. it
    grows with experience and accepting your strengths AND weaknesses.
    
    K
    

sent to me by mail
_________________________________________________________

 
March 14, 1989		Message 1922 from Irene Allen
 
Subject: Message 1916 from Vicki Powers
 
Re Vicki's comments of "I have feelings of insecurity and
inadequacy, deep down I think that I'm just a fraud, ..."
 
I have known several very successful male computer scientists who
felt EXACTLY the same way in school and continued to have those
feelings after they graduated, got jobs, became chairs of their
departments, won awards, etc.  The only male-female difference I
noticed was that the men never considered giving up.  Their sense of
insecurity just made them try harder.  I think this is mostly
because men were programmed to try and succeed at all costs.
Failing at school/work leaves men with no other accepted place to go
so when failure threatens their choices are easy.  Even though it's
no longer true for most women, a lot of us were programmed to think
"well, if this doesn't work out I can always get married and stay
home".  The combination of this programming and a genuine
desire/need to succeed is bound to leave us ambivalent, so when
insecurity hits, we're paralyzed.  We concentrate on the feelings
and the choices around them (do others feel this way, why do I feel
this way, maybe I shouldn't stay in this line of work if it makes me
feel this way?) rather than just repressing the feelings and
throwing ourselves even more into our work.
 
Now I don't think that repressing doubts and just working harder is
necessarily good for you in the long run, but in the short run it
does tend to make you more successful.  Sometimes that alone takes
care of the long run.
 
/irene
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March 14, 1989		Message 1923 from Elizabeth Hinkelman
 
Subject: women as impostors 
 
Vicki Powers said in ms 1916 that despite being a successful
professor, she half-expects to be "found out" as an impostor.  I
feel this acutely at times and was surprised to find out how common
this is among career women.  Has anyone read _The Impostor Syndrome_
(?) on this subject? What's in it?
 
For me there seem to be a couple of factors -- "I wasn't meant for
this" and "little old me?" and the Cold Cruel World.  Being raised
in a community of fulltime mothers I think left me with an
underlying sense that that's what I was meant for -- the parents'
expectations went as far as college but were open after that.  This
leaves us also without the skills that are stressed in "male
culture" and helpful on the job -- being able to take criticism and
learn from it, emphasizing actions rather than words & results over
intentions, & generally being tough.  I think being  generally tough
-- having a sturdy ego -- is the antidote to the "little old me?"
feeling -- if you're taught to evaluate your own work and improve
it, and believe in it, you're not going to be humbly waiting for
others' approval.  And cringing when it seems you're not getting
it.   Being brought up by a housewife gave me a lot of skills but
not trusting myself to get results.    And the Cold Cruel World
sends inconsistent messages too -- I've heard three completely
separate stories of sexism on the job in Rochester this week.  No
wonder we feel like impostors, if we're expected to become the
secretary at group meetings!  What other little signals are we
getting?
 
Specifically about jokes -- my sister nearly cried on the job last
week because the guys were calling her "supplemental" which is on
her name tag.  She already felt like a second class citizen and
there they were reinforcing it.  They stopped when they knew it
hurt.  But they were assuming she was competent & strong enough to
know she was on the team. Do you want to say that they were
subconsciously trying to reinforce her status, & that the
sociological role of jokes in the "male culture" is to reinforce
stereotypes?  This may be so, but my recent impression is that the
same guys would avoid "mean" jokes in which they believe the hearer
will be hurt.  You're just supposed to be able to laugh at your own
weaknesses & such.  There will always be differences in taste about
humor, & I'll be willing to appreciate "guy humor" when they
appreciate that some of us just aren't yet empowered enough to "take
it."   Painful jokes are bound to intensify the feeling of
impostorhood.
 
Longwinded today. I must be avoiding confronting my thesis (-:
 
Elizabeth
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      re: .16 - I'm amazed at how accurately this expresses how I feel.
      It's nice to know you aren't alone. I always feel like I have to
      be so tough and confident at work. Anything less and no one will
      listen to you. Maybe that's why I so frequently crumple in my
      personal life. I just don't have any bravado left for it. liesl

    re .16
    
    I too have printed this one out as a reminder that if I think about
    it, the only difference between me and others who feel as I do is
    that I let the feelings paralyze me instead of charging forth from
    the challenge. I'm going to see if I can change this.

    
    
    Good morning Nance,
    
    
    I believe woman are less confident than men.  Although in my experience
    they work twice as hard but in reality its a mans world.  The world
    portrays females to be perfect for motherhood, housework and dare
    I say it, in the bedroom.  And men naturely have a superior air
    because of this...................not all men.
    
    A man with a beer belly is accepted as one of the guys but a overweight
    woman is a slob.  Unless we are tall, blonde and generally a bimbo
    we are critized.  I am not bitter but just stating facts, I am 5
    ft 11 inches, slim with long blonde hair this however does not 
    close my eyes to whats happening around me.  By the way I'm no bimbo.
    
    You see two years ago I was 15 stone and life I can tell you was
    different then............................
    
    
    
    					
                               I await your replies.........Mags
    
    

    
    	I believe I am more self confident now than ever. But I
    	feel I can improve on that.  I still have bouts with 
    	insecurity which I know is because of my early adolescence.
    
    	At age 10, I had 11 teeth pulled, 2 kinds of headgear,
    	retainers and eventually braces.  At the same time I also
    	had to get glasses.  Introducing, instant ugly duckling.
    	I had very few friends and was very shy and introverted.
    	I tried hard to get kids to like me but to no avail.
    	That didn't change until my Jr. year in HS.  I got rid
    	of the glasses and got contacts, and refused to wear
    	my retainer.  (fortunately my teeth are still ok!!)
    	Then people started to pay attention to me. It took
    	a LONG TIME to get used to that.  I didn't have to
    	work so hard to get people to like me.  They liked
    	the way I looked so they decided to take the time
    	to see what I was really like.  I realize now that
    	that was superficial.  I wish they would have tried
    	to get to know the real me when I was a four-eyes
    	and tinsel-teeth.  If they had, then maybe I wouldn't
    	have been so introverted. 
    
    	Now, though, I'm not out to impress anyone.  I am the
    	way I am.  I like the way I look and I love being me!!
    	There are a couple of things I would like to change 
    	a little and I work on that.  People that I know now,
    	know the me that I wish I could have been when I was
    	younger.  Carefree and almost always with a smile.
    	Some folks don't believe me when I tell them that I 
    	had very few friends and was very shy, because I am
    	outgoing now.  (sometimes obnoxious!! :-)   )
    
    	Self-confindence is important.  In general I think men
    	have more than women.  But my fiance was a little like	
    	me when he was younger too.  Not to that extreme but....
    	his insecurity was for totally different reasons that I
    	won't go into, but I like to say that I helped him over-
    	come that a little.  And he has a marvelous family tht
    	helped too.
    
    	Sorry for rambling....
    
    	JJ
    

    
    
    
    	Hi JJ,
    
    		I know how you feel, being fat and ugly myself when
    	I was young made me do supid things like buy sweets to share
    with everone......Its not until you are older you realise people
    who did not take time to get to know you are shallow people who
    today you would prefer not to get friendly with.
    
    		I'm glad to say I am slim and not to be too big headed,
    attractive but like yourself I still have my insecurities from the
    past.  People from my home town tend not to recognise me, people
    who know me well find it hard to understand why I am insecure but
    your childhood is with you forever....................I had bad
    luck with some past boyfriends which took me back a step but I've
    got Ronnie now.
    
    
    		Although at times I look very confident, sometimes inside
    I want to run to a corner but my job entails meeting high level
    people and this has helped me a great deal.  My fiancee is also
    wonderful................
                   
    
    
    			To the new us..................Mags
    
    
    

    
    
    	Cheers Mags...to us!! hee hee