Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    This response to the basenote is being posted anonymously for another
    member of our community.
    
                                            Holly Hendricks
                                            co-moderator
    ********************************************************************
    
    
>    In a nutshell, the issue is: What's my orientation, anyways?
   
>    I've almost always felt drawn to women but have been involved with men.
>    Even when in a relationship, I sometimes feel attracted to other
>    people. Lately, I've noticed that the people I'm attracted to are all
>    women, and I've pretty much lost interest in men. 
 
>    This feels a little weird, but not bad. I used to feel like I had a
>    nice neat label, something like "straight" (to the outside world) or
>    "mostly heterosexual" (to me). Now I feel like that label fell off, and
>    I don't have a new label to replace it with. If someone asked me what
>    my orientation is, I wouldn't have an answer for them. 
    
I had a roommate who felt this way once.  She just "went with it" until it
eventually resolved itself.  In her case, it resolved in favor of men...but
the important thing was that she stuck with it and searched out her
feelings, allowed herself to experiment.  Only that way could she find the
"core" truth about herself
    
I, too, have dabbled in bisexuality, primarily with the encouragement of a
boyfriend (of course, he didn't mind having a threesome at all...).  I
found it felt strange, not bad, just strange.  It was kind of enjoyable to
feel the fascination with a woman's body that a man must feel (it is so
much more curvacious, so much softer).  But I came away feeling very
confused, as if I had this terrible secret and I had crossed this invisible
line into some strange and perverted territory.  It made a great deal of
differenc WHO the other woman was, much more so than it ever did when I got
physical with a boyfriend.  It also mattered how SHE looked at the
situation, how she felt about it, what she wanted from it, whether or not
she understood.

It IS scary to talk about.  It's a very taboo subject, very hush-hush, and
can be very damaging to people's impressions of you if they are easily
shocked, so it must all be handled very discreetly.

At this point in time, I am decidedly heterosexual.  The point is, if I
ever get the inclination to experiment, I will not ignore it.  I won't dive
in feet-first, though, either.  It's a matter of calm acceptance and
exploration, a matter of discovering uncharted parts of your inner realms.
You must trust yourself, and find new ways to explore and channel your
feelings.  It can also be a chance to grow... 

good luck    

    Re .0:
    
    After falling asleep listening to a subliminal on goal achieving,
    I awakened with one thought, "My goal is me."  We are not alive
    to please others; rather, we are alive to discover ourselves and
    to be the very best "me" we can be at any given point in time. You
    have a right--a duty, if you will, to explore your "selfhood" to
    its fullest.  Only then, will you be able to say, "I am me.  I neither
    desire to be, nor feel obligated to be other than myself."  You,
    dear sister, are a special person.  You are unique because you are
    you.  You have no need to be other than yourself.  I encourage and
    support you in your discovery of "self."
    
    Warm Thoughts-
    Barb

I'm impressed by how sanely and well you (.0) are working through this
issue in your life. 

I've never really talked to anyone about my own coming out story.  It
touches some of my deepest personal emotions and these are difficult to
express, but I'd like to share some of it now.

I was married to a man and had two children.  After splitting up with 
him, I had two serious relationships with men.  After the last one, I 
went into a cocoon-like period -- celibate and seeing very little of 
anyone except my kids and few close friends.  Like a cocoon, the 
apparent lack of motion of the surface must have been hiding a great 
deal of activity within.

During that time, I remember going with my best friend to a storytelling 
being given by a theatre friend of hers.  It was called "Women's Erotic 
Storytelling". My friend was late, so I was there alone for a while and
we ended up with seats apart from each other. It was the first time I
had ever been in a roomful of lesbians and it gave me a curious feeling.
I had spent a lot of my life cut off from other women, and there was a
kind of energy that I had never felt before. 

I don't much remember the details of the stories, but they were not very
explicitly sexual.  I do remember that I spent time trying to keep from
crying, because they hit a previously untouched emotional nerve.  I
remember thinking that if that was what love between women was like,
then maybe that was what I had wanted all my life.  I filed that
information away, though, and continued with my life of isolation. 

Then SHE came into my life, and I knew without any fragment of doubt 
exactly what I wanted.  I knew more clearly than I knew my own name.
I went through a period of the most intense personal growth that has 
ever occurred in my life -- amazing my therapist to no end.  The feeling 
I had had throughout most of my life that I was something slightly
broken went away.  It did not go away just because I had a True Love and 
She made me ok -- it went away because in the process of being with her,
I found my own true self.  Although this woman isn't in my life anymore,
what she gave me will be with me always. 

For me, there is an emotional quality to a relationship with a woman 
that doesn't exist elsewhere.  Although at one time I thought I was
genuinely sexually interested in men, that interest fell to absolute
zero once women came into my life, and has been there ever since.  
Making love to a woman has an emotional intensity to it that no 
man can provide for me, no matter what kind of enthusiastic sexual 
athlete he may be.  There is much more to sex than some combination of 
physical sensations, and more to being attracted to women that just sex.
It's hard for me to explain what that extra-special quality is.  I know 
that it makes me want to write poety, and to sing.

I have been lucky to get acceptance and support from the people closest 
to me.  My long-time friend, the one who went to the story-telling, is 
still my best friend. My kids have been fantastic. And I've met lots of
wonderful women. I wish you joy on your own journey of self-discovery. 

    Coming out to oneself perhaps was the hardest part for me.  I had
    internalized all kinds of negative values about women.  How could
    I be a woman who loved women?  Sometime into my marriage I began
    to feel more attracted to my women friends and their lives than
    to the men I found around me.  I thought maybe I'm Bi...I can accept
    that.  That lasted for several frustrating years.  Each day led
    me to attempt to discover myself and how I felt about women.
    I soon "came out" to my husband.  He thought I was going
    through a phase and should just have an affair and get "it" out
    of my system.  My marriage died when my husband insisted on having
    children.  This was his solution to making my life normal.
    As far as  I am concerned my life has never been abnormal.
    
    When I came out to my women friends they basically said, "What took
    you so long."  Now as an out lesbian I can be myself.  Just the
    energy and love I get from other women sustains me.  For me being
    other as an active choice was like going home.  While relationships
    with people of any sex are hard my lover and I have learned
    to be ourselves freely.  I feel glad and proud to be lesbian.  I
    could not change my life experiences and have no wish to do so they
    have made me who I am.  I respect myself, I love women and I am
    who I am.  Each of us comes to this place from many differrent experiences
    but most of us feel it is home.                                           
    
    MaggieT

    Gosh, at this point I'm sort of reluctant to make this point:
    
    Enjoying being in a women-only environment, finding it wonderful
    and empowering and electric, is normal.  It says nothing about
    your sexual orientation.
    
    (My reluctance stems from my worry that this might be construed
    as a put-down of lesbianism, or a "There, there, don't worry,
    you're probably really normal."  (With no definition given for
    "normal", of course.)  *I* believe my point is just another datum
    to be considered.)
    
    							Ann B.

Is there any reason or trauma why you should find a sex unappealing?  If not,
then don't worry about it...  

do what you feel it right for *you*; regardless of that what you think is "The
Right Thing To Do".  If you want to experiment, do it... if you change your
mind, that's ok too.  If you change your mind repeatedly or are confused, that's
ok, too.  Just don't push yourself faster then you are really ready for. 

Supposedly all people have attractions with both sexes to varying degrees. Don't
be surprised if you feel attracted to a sex.  Most people supposedly have mainly
an attraction to one sex, but the whole spectrum exists and is open to you.

Bisexual friends have told me that they consider both hetrosexuals and
homosexuals limit themselves too much; to be really open you have to be able to
love both sexes. 

JMB

    My reactions are the same as Ann's. I was recalling how wonderful
    I found my 20th reuinion from an all womens college, or how
    much I have enjoyed having lunch or dinner with a woman friend
    or groups of friends. I have always enjoyed time spent just with
    women. Such times are indeed 'empowering and elctric' but have
    no bearing on my sexual orientation.
    
    Bonnie

    I would agree with the other JMB that I feel that everyone is
    potentially bisexual. It's just that the strength of those feelings
    range from extreme heterosexual to extreme homosexual. The point
    that he brings up about bisexual friends feeling that monosexual
    people "limit" themselves too much is a good one too. I tend to
    feel that way myself, even though I'm strictly heterosexual.
    There's a song that Mary Travers (of "Peter, Paul, and" fame) sings
    on one of her solo albums that has a line that goes:
    
    "I have this feeling that I've bought this ticket, and I'm watching
    only half of the show."
    
    While the context of the song is not about sexual or emotional
    attitudes, it *is* a good line to think about in situations like
    this. Whether it's a sexual interest or an emotional interest or
    both, don't worry about what your label is. Just try to be
    comfortable with what you are.
    
    --- jerry

    I agree with the other two JMB's (lots of us, aren't there?).  I was
    told several years ago about a scale of sexual orientation called the
    Kinsey Scale, where "1" is totally heterosexual and "6" is totally
    homosexual. I know people from all parts of the scale, and the vital
    thing is to realize that there is nothing bad about what they are
    doing, they are all trying to be the best "Them" they can be, they
    should be supported in this endeavor, and we should rejoice in their
    successes for finding the way that is most natural for them. 

    up, up with people!
    
    -Jody
    

    At the risk of sounding simplistic, I never have quite understood
    why anybody should have to suffer under the burden of imposed
    judgement.  One's sexual orientation really ought not to matter
    to anyone except one's partner or potential lover.  To my way of
    thinking we all have many unexplored areas and not enough time to
    delve into them *all*.  So we make choices for what ever reasons.
    And we live with those choices.  I try to make my choices in such
    a way that I won't have to look back when I'm 130 and say "I wish
    I had..."  Being able to face your own heart is a tough act.
    
    dondi
    

I find loving women so obvious and wonderful a thing to do, that there 
are days when I feel like I don't know how any woman can settle for 
heterosexuality.  I suspect that the majority of women have a 
fairly fluid sexuality.  For most that I know, gratifying sexual 
relationships involve a strong personal and emotional component.  Women 
are, either by nature or nurture, more inclined to form emotional 
connections to others.  I think it is largely cultural conditioning that 
determines that only those connections to men can be safely considered 
erotic, and those with women are not.  

Our conception of 'erotic' is largely male-defined, and in the male
sexual paradigm, physical sex and emotional connection are distinct and
only occasionally coincide.  (Witness the pornography debate about men's 
"needs" having nothing to do with their relationships.)  This 
distinction is not satisfying, or even comprehensible, to many women.
Women's eroticism tends to be a more diffuse thing, and does not 
necessarily even involve what men consider to be 'sex' (intercourse) at 
all.  

How many women find candlelight, walks along the Grand Canal, 
flirtatious eye contact, a gentle massage, and chocolate truffles erotic
and satisfying things in themselves?  How many men feel any such thing
is just a prelude to the 'real stuff'?  How many women feel their man 
isn't romantic enough, doesn't take enough time, doesn't talk enough or
share his feelings?  How many men feel that they don't understand what
their women are complaining about when they want these things?  After
all, don't you take her out to dinner and buy her flowers on your
anniversary?  How many women have intercourse with their men because 
their men desire it, they love their men, and they get satisfaction from 
the other's pleasure?  How many men? Given what I suspect are frequently
the different answers to these questions, I'm sometimes amazed any women
and men ever get together. 

An awful lot of women enjoy more closeness with their women friends than
they ever do with their men lovers.  Our culture tends to put taboos on
this closeness so that many women do not interpret it as having erotic
potential.  That does not mean it doesn't exist.  In fact, I don't think 
heterosexuality would need to be enforced so strongly in our culture 
through such insitutions as marriage, religion, law, and custom if it
were overwhelmingly the inescapable natural compulsion of all women. 
We have few laws that regulate eating, for example, but zillions 
suppressing homosexuality, regulating women's sexual activity, and 
defining women's status in relationships.  

I think getting a buzz from all-women gatherings does have erotic
significance, just as I suspect all-male gatherings in locker rooms and 
on sports teams (the only place a man can legitimately pat another's 
fanny) has erotic significance.  It's just our culture's heterosexual
training that prevents most people from processing the input they receive
that way. 

I suspect the Kinsey scale of being bell-shaped, with the famous 10%
probably at either end, and the bulk of the population in the middle. 
Our socialization pushes most people towards the heterosexual extreme,
probably distorting their natural-born Kinsey rating a few points
downward.  Lesbians and bisexuals are probably far enough up on the
scale so that even with all the social pressure, they still can't be
pushed all the way to the 0 end.  Although bisexuality is probably the
human norm, I don't feel that I am missing anything as lesbian. I've put
in my time, thank you, and at this stage of my life I choose to do what
suits me best.  Given that we receive so much conditioning around sexual 
behavior and roles, I think it would be a good thing for everyone to
engage in an exploration of self to determine what is most truly aligned
with their inner being.  The average homosexually-behaving person must
do this of a necessity -- the average heterosexually-behaving person
never needs to do it.  Few people agonize over whether or not they 
might be heterosexual, and consequently lose much valuable insight into
themselves and society. 

    So many of the previous REPLYs have been wise and thoughtful and
    well-said that I'll just briefly add 2c.
    
    Rather than saying (thinking) "What's my orientation?" so you then
    reason "Well, my orientation is <X>, so I act like <this>"
    
    				why not
    
    just act the way you *feel* like acting. Then if you want to name
    it, go ahead and name it. Just be sure you're doing what feels right
    for you. Who gives 2 hoots what it's called?
    
    (Yes, I know, *society* does. Heck with 'em)  
    
    Dawn
    

re .0:

    Several years ago I went through a similar agonizing process
    of wanting to know what my "label" was.  This was catalyzed
    in a class I was taking in college, an anthropology/sociology
    class called "Woman in Contemporary Culture."  Our instructor
    invited a lesbian couple to come in and talk to us one day,
    and I walked out of class that day feeling terribly shaken.
    "These women look and act just like other women I know," I
    thought. "Any woman I know might be gay."  And then--very
    hard--I thought, "the way they described their feelings for
    each other sounds a lot like what I feel about Hope.  Could
    *I* be gay?" 

    It was a frightening question for me.  But I couldn't stand
    not knowing.  I got involved with a women's encounter/therapy
    group.  I went to women's dances sponsored by GLSOK (Gay and
    Lesbian Society of Kansas).  I wore jeans on the campus-wide
    "Wear Jeans If You're Gay Day"--I still wasn't sure what I
    was, but by then I was willing and able to show my support.
    I experimented--the word sounds cold, but experimenting was
    what it was--with women lovers. 

    And what I discovered was that I am often attracted to other
    women, and enjoy the special tender warm relationship I can
    have with another woman, whether or not it's a sexual
    relationship.  I found a real sense of energy and potential
    when I was with a group of women that I didn't sense in mixed
    groups.  I also discovered that, having tried the reality, I
    didn't find sex with women as erotically charged as sex with
    (some) men.  And I've never "fallen in love" with a woman
    like I have with a man, in the sense of feeling like I wanted
    to commit myself to a lifetime relationship.

    After much thinking, and discussion with women and men who
    were important to me, I began to understand my feelings.
    And when I understood--and accepted--my feelings, it turned
    out I didn't care about the label anymore. 

    My answers don't apply to you.  If the label is as important
    to you as it was to me then, you'll have to figure it out in
    your own way.  Good luck in your search for yourself!

    -- Linda

    re: .14
    
    in regards to your remark about the lesbian couple "looking and
    acting just like regular women", I've heard it said that 1 out of
    every 10 people is gay.  Chances are, even for the most straightlaced
    and homophobic of people, they know one or more gays - who may well
    be friends and acquaintances they see every day.  It's really amazing
    how some people, after finding out a close friend is gay, decide
    via their internal prejudices, and their inability to cope with
    the possibility that they have been close to someone gay, that they
    no longer wish to be friends with that person.   What closed minds
    those people have!

    -Jody
    

       
    This response is being posted anonymously for a member of our community.
    
    
                                          Holly Hendricks
                                          Co-moderator
****************************************************************************
    
       I am glad this note was started.  I am in a similar confused 
       state about sexual orientation, but I wasn't ready to start a 
       note.
       
       I have always had sexual fantasies about both men and women, 
       but my relationships have been heterosexual.  
       
       In high school I had a passionate romantic crush on the 
       captain of the girl's basketball team.  I never thought of it 
       as "abnormal".  Since I was not sexually active in high 
       school, I did not face the question of physical expression of 
       my admiration.  I followed her around, practiced basketball 
       to be on the team also, wrote her name in hearts... 
       
       I have had 2 long term heterosexual relationships.  Then, 18  
       months ago, I found myself strongly attracted to a woman I 
       have known casually as a co-worker for many years.  I have 
       been comfortable among lesbians, but when I faced the idea 
       for myself, I discovered a number of fears.
       
       First, I haven't the faintest notion how to proceed, if I 
       want to.  All my social training has been in attracting men, 
       in detecting whether they are interested in me, in giving 
       explicit and implicit invitations to men.  I don't know how 
       to figure out whether she might be interested in me.  I don't 
       know whether it is all fantasy, or whether I really want an 
       intimate relationship.  We are not close friends now, and 
       don't see each other frequently in the course of work.
       
       The penalties of guessing wrong seem great.  If I tactfully 
       suggest a more intimate relationship to a man, the worst I 
       face is "no, thank you".  If I approach a homophobic woman, I 
       may face shock and revulsion.   I suppose I could find ways 
       to raise the subject in casual conversation to get a clue.  
       But some people react very differently in their own case.  I 
       knew a "liberal" man who reacted in horror when a male 
       co-worker approached him.  He insisted that he could no 
       longer work on the same project, wouldn't sit at the same 
       table in the cafeteria, and informed a number of his 
       acquaintances.
       
       The label "bisexual" really bothers me.  To me, the word is 
       associated with casual sex, "swingers", and styles that don't 
       fit me.  I have always wanted sex in the context of a 
       long-term emotional relationship.  The label "lesbian" does 
       connote love and long term relationships to me, but I am not 
       sure I don't still relate to men also.  I am somewhere in the 
       middle of the scale.
       
       I had a long term heterosexual relationship that was 
       "socially unacceptable".  In the beginning we didn't care, 
       but in the end, social disapproval destroyed the 
       relationship.  My parents pretended the relationship did not 
       exist; his parents treated it as a phase we were going 
       through.  Our close friends accepted it because they loved 
       us, but it was hard for some of them to understand.  
       
       As we progressed in our careers, my SO became more 
       uncomfortable about openness.  We began going to parties 
       separately, limiting how often we danced with each other.  My 
       SO felt unable to cancel a business trip to be with me during 
       a serious (but not life-threatening) illness. The 
       relationship moved gradually from discreet to secretive.
       
       I fear that any lesbian relationship will exist in the same 
       context of social disapproval, unless I choose to change my 
       social life to center in the gay community.  If my partner 
       cannot be open, then I cannot choose to be open.  I really 
       fear going into another new relationship that has to be 
       hidden and that will horrify my family.  I want to love 
       someone whom my friends and family will love also.  I want to 
       be able to bring my SO to the family Christmas party, and 
       company picnics.
       
       I believe that Digital is not generally tolerant of lesbians 
       and gay men in management, except possibly in Personnel.  We 
       officially do not discriminate, but in fact serious 
       promotions go to those who "fit in".  Do we have any vice 
       presidents or group managers who are openly homosexual?  
       Statistically, I would bet there are some in the closet.  I 
       believe that coming out would limit my career choices even 
       more than being a woman has already done.
       
       Coming out - I don't even know what I am!!  
       
       I am a hugger.  I have close woman friends whom I touch a lot 
       without any sexual implication.  I wonder whether straight 
       friends will shy away if they learn that I can be attracted 
       to women.  Will they think I am making a pass?
       
       I have been to a few events that were primarily lesbian, and 
       I have one lesbian friend whom I can talk with.  I am reading 
       some lesbian fiction.  I spend a lot of time with women 
       friends of all orientations, which gives me a sense of 
       support.
       
       I need more ways of getting support and information. 
       
       Next week I am going to a party where I will see the woman I 
       find so attractive.  I have no idea what I will do.  
       
                 

sigh.  what you have said is all quite true.  I have mentioned before 
what I think about the amorphousness of the average woman's affectional/
emotional/sexual being, and I do not think your mixture of feelings are 
terribly unusual.

It is unfortunate that we are a society so passionately devoted to 
labels.  Our culture is not accepting of diversity, so it becomes 
necessary to tag you and slide you into the appropriate category in 
order to keep the society neat.  If you are a left-handed Ukrainian 
civil war enthusiast, you must find others of your own kind in order to 
have a community where you feel truly accepted and understood.

The gay and lesbian community offers an alternative home to many who
have lost their families and communities of origin.  It can be a
benevolent and caring home, but it too, carries a certain set of
expectations.  I do not know how long it will be before we create
communities that will acknowledge the truth, the whole truth, of each
human being's personal existence.  We have to put them together for 
ourselves, piece by piece, as best we can.

Your understanding of the strains on a socially unacceptable 
relationship are quite accurate, and all these things happen -- they 
have happened to me, too.  Still, there is something to be said for heading 
off into the wilderness without a roadmap.  There are possibilities for 
discovery and new creation.  They are not unmixed with loss, like any 
pioneering effort.  To be queer (however one defines that) is to be "one 
of life's buccaneers", as someone-or-other famous once said.  And life 
is full of pleasant surprises as well as unpleasant ones.
It doesn't always turn out badly.

There is the eternal problem of seeking out the one who fires your
heart.  The lesbian courtship dance can be a shy and intricate one.  The
normal terror of rejection is multiplied many times by fear of personal 
and social homophobia.  I remember the electric shock of realizing in a 
random conversation that She must be One.  I remember dropping hints and 
working up to a full scale flirtation complete with offers to elope to 
Paris, with neither of us completely sure that that was what the
other really meant.  I remember the first touch, the first kiss, the
moments of terror and exhiliaration.  I don't know how you can avoid any 
of it.  At some point, it feels like throwing yourself off a cliff.

From a practical perspective, few things can beat a screening of 'Desert
Hearts' for setting an appropriate atmosphere.  It is hard for women to
think of the courtship process as anything other than giving some
receptive signals and waiting for the other to act on it. It's a pretty
deeply ingrained training.  Two women can give each other receptive
signals all day, though, and nothing will happen until somebody takes
the risk of being the aggressor. You should invite her out -- something
casual and woman-oriented like a women's music concert is good (depends
on your part of the country if these things happen much).  Use your
emotional antenna to see how she feels in that kind of environment, and
wing it from there. 

Once you get past the block of indicating that you want to get to know
each other, and you actually do and things seem to be going ok, you've 
got the giant roadblock of Making A Sexual Advance.  I still don't know 
how that is done without feeling like the Atlantic Ocean is about to 
break over your head.  If you have a lesbian friend you might talk to 
her about it, just for the reassurance of stories from her life in which 
she was not struck by lightening.  A good gay male friend would be a big 
help, too.  I have found mine to be an endless source of wisdom and good 
advice in this department.

So there -- my accumulated wisdom, which doesn't amount to much when 
it comes to the Pursuit of Love, either real or imagined.  Do your best,
be yourself, take courage, and read the poetry of medieval troubadours
when all else fails. 

>       The label "bisexual" really bothers me.  

Try on ambisexual for a while. I think that sounds nice; like ambi-dexterous!
	Mez

    You don't need to 'have a label' in order to following your feelings
    or test the waters.
    
    If you do what is right for you then you will be just fine.  I really
    trust in this self-affirmation.  If I am not comprimising myself,
    then I can feel good about me and walk through any situation.
    
    When my lover was coming out, she did not use any label.  She did
    not refer to herself as a lesbian for a long time, in fact.  She
    just did what felt right in her heart.
    
    I can't say that I approached coming out with the same amount of
    elegance.  But then, I was 20 years old then, not 40 as was my lover.
    I cut off all my hair (I mean, state trooper style hair cut), didn't
    wear skirts or dresses for over 7 years, and was radical, separatist
    and loved going for the shock value.  
    
    I have mellowed with age.  Perhaps maturity and some increase in
    wisdom have helped.  I mean, we can get into labels and what does
    it mean?  Well, some labels help to identitfy some of our life
    experiences, such as the fact that I am an adoptee.  That's a label,
    but there are certain experiences that go with it.  Or, I'm a
    recovering alcoholic, etc., etc.
    
    Rule of thumb, do what you feel comfortable with.  Be open to your
    OWN feelings and inner voices.  Trust yourself.  That is what counts.
    
    I truly wish you well on your journey.
    
    Regards,
    
    Laura
    

    I have a very young friend, who a short time ago, announced her
    sexual preference to me.  She lived upstairs, on the 2nd fl. with
    her mother.  Anyone who meets me, shortly realized my sexuality
    and this young friend found I was the only one she could talk to.
    My exact response was for her to search her own identity.  She had
    previously been a very miserable young lady.  Very popular among
    the boys and week-ends were filled with parties and fun.  As she
    admitted, something was missing.  She began going out to some of
    the area bars with me as her contact.  It is now approx. 6 months
    later and she is happy and in-love with a woman.  I can not believe
    the change in this young ladies attitude towards getting up in the
    morning, going to work, etc.  
    
    She is much more able to handle the daily routine of existing. 
    Though she is not really out to most of her friends yet, she is
    very happy and I'm proud to have been involved.
    
    To make it simple, a risk must be taken before any progress or growth
    can be made.  Take that risk.

I'd like to mention here that I recently became a moderator for a 
members-only conference devoted to discussing the issues of 
Lesbian/Gay/Bisexual employees at Digital.  Anyone interested in 
finding support for the kinds of issues that have been discussed in this 
topic is welcome to send mail to me or to CLUSTA::HAUBNER to request 
membership.

<We now return to our regularly scheduled program>

I'm not sure if .21, because it is the most recent reply and is several months
old, means that we shouldn't write to this topic anymore in this conference.
I'll make my reply fairly short in case it has to be deleted.

Labels are stupid.  More importantly, they are self-limiting.  We are who we
are, and each of us is unique.

I broke off an engagement many years ago because I had feelings that needed to
be explored.  Many miserable years followed, the most miserable of which were
the ones I spent in a relationship that I couldn't see the way out of.  I
didn't learn ANYTHING about MYSELF during this period, and in fact was trying
to be someone other than myself.

I have never had sex with a woman.  This used to be a problem for me, because
I had some negative imagery having to do with some mildly incestuous incidents
that were beyond my control which took place in high school.  I had always
assumed that this was the "cause" of my sexual orientation, and felt guilty
over it because I had spent many years trying to "fix" myself, to no avail.

I spent a good deal of money this year going through the triad of
self-awakening seminars given by Insight Transformational Seminars.  One of
the most important things that came out of this was that I came in touch with
LOTS of women in a VERY physical manner, and finally had LOTS of positive
imagery to offset the negative imagery from before!  Instead of embracing the
negative imagery and trying to "fix" it or figure it out, all I have to do now
is recall the positive imagery I now have at my disposal!

Because I am now in a long-distance relationship that will remain that way for
the forseeable future, it was important for me to resolve this issue before we
live closer to one another.  I feel wonderful that I was able to resolve it
without resorting to actual sexual activity, which would have just confused
matters and possibly would have damaged my current relationship.  I am no
longer afraid to hug the women in my life and to act sensual around them.  Nor
am I afraid to open myself up to men.  I am focused on one person, and we both
trust one another enough that neither of us feels the need to worry about
"something happening".  It has been very liberating for me, and I have been in
MANY situations in the past few months, with both men and women, where I was
put on the spot but didn't even feel tempted because it didn't make sense to
me due to being focussed.

We're both very independent, so out commitment comes from our feeling of
connectedness and our mutual affection and trust.  I'm TRYING to make this
note "short", so bear in mind that I'm oversimplifying everything.  I guess
my point is that confusion over sexual orientation doesn't have to resolve
itself through a series of sexual encounters that often resolve nothing and
confuse matters more.  Nor does its lack of "clean" resolution on one side of
the fence or the other prevent one from having a loving, monogamous
relationship with someone of EITHER sex.

And accepting oneself as being capable of "bisexuality" does not have to mean
serial monogamy, either.  I am finding that I am able to be more intimate with
people now without it being a prelude to sexual involvement, and that my life
(and the lives of those around me) has been enriched immensely by this
self-discovery.  Nor do I feel any self-denial here, because I know that
my current relationship is not based on sex, but that sex with anyone else
does not appeal to me because it wouldn't be accompanied by the mutual trust,
loving, compassion and commitment.  If I let an initial physical attraction
play itself out in my head, it doesn't get very far.

I personally feel that becoming comfortable with ones sexuality is based more
on a process of self-discovery and self-acceptance than on what actions one
chooses to take and what relationships one involves oneself in.  But it is
difficult to explore it strictly along those lines, because we are charting
unknown territory without role models as soon as we step away from the
traditional family model.  It takes a lot of courage, but winning the battle
makes one stronger for life's other battles.


				Mark

    re.22  write here all you want!  this was so beautiful [imho]
    	
       Ann   

    re: .22
    
    Mark, that's great.  
    
    --bonnie

    
    	   It's interesting.  I have recently read compelling
    	information that leads me to believe that sexual orientation
    	is largely a function of genetics and hormone levels
    	(e.g. the amount of testosterone in the body during
    	gestation and at birth).
    
    	   This came as rather a shock to me, because I had
    	always believed that sexual orientation is largely a
    	function of choice (subconscious choice, to be sure,
    	but chosen none the less).  Mark's remarks lead me
    	to question my change of mind on this subject, at least
    	with regard to bisexuals.  Quite obviously they, more
    	than any other group, DO have the choice as they can
    	be aroused by either gender.
    
    	   I have also heard someone say that 'everyone is
    	bisexual until proven otherwise', (which I took to
    	mean at death, since that's the only time at which 
    	a lifetime's activities can be guaged).  This has 
    	also caused me to wonder.  Frankly, I tend to agree
    	with the notion, if for no other reason than its
    	logical purity.
    
    	- Greg

Kinsey's scale goes from 0 to 6, where most people are neither at 0 nor at 6.
A 0 is a person totally heterosexual, a 6 is someone totally homosexual, and
a 3 is someone exactly in the middle.

I consider myself a 5.  I have been attracted to men, but since I found women
then there has been maybe 1 man to attract me, and one date with him changed
my mind.  :-)

Technically, being a 5 would make me bisexual, however, since my attraction
to women is SO strong, and my attraction to men so weak, and since I am in
a long-term, committed relationship with a woman, then I call myself gay.
I have not called myself bisexual since I realized how overwhemingly I am
attracted to women -- emotionally, spiritually, sexually, and otherwise.
I would consider anyone calling me bisexual to be in error.

              Carol

Actually, the idea of the bell curve appeals to _me_, since I've often found
logical purity to fall flat on its face when trying to reflect my life
experience.

	Mez

	Reading old notes in a newly opened conference can be so interesting...

	The concept of sexual orientation as genetic or determined by very
	early experiences makes some amount of sense, but it also makes me
	wonder if we don't put too much value on gender preference.  I am
	primarily heterosexual, but I do notice quite a few women sexually,
	and have occassionally been very attracted to a specific women.  On
	the other hand, there are many men who attract me not at all.

	I don't look *only* for gender -- I am attracted to a given set of
	personality traits, combined with certain physical traits.  Most
	of the women I am attracted to fit a general physical type; the
	same thing goes for men.

	I guess it boils down to agreeing that labels are limiting -- 
	*people* are sexy, or attractive, or not, on an individual basis.

	Beverly

                    BISEXUALITY


What is bisexuality?

Bisexuality is the potential to feel sexually attracted to and to
engage in sensual or sexual relationship with people of either
gender.  A bisexual person may not be equally attracted to both
sexes and degree of attraction may vary of time.

Self-perception is the key to bisexual identity.  Many people engage
in sexual activity with people of both sexes, yet do not identify as
bisexual.  Likewise, other people engage in sexual relations only with
people of one sex, or do not engage in sexual activity at all, yet
consider themselves bisexual.  There is no behavioral "test" to
determine whether or no one is bisexual.

The Bisexual Identity

Some people believe that a person is born heterosexual, homosexual, or
bisexual (for instance due to prenatal hormonal influences), and that
identify is inherent and unchangeable.  Others believe that sexual
orientation is due to socialization (for example either imitating or
rejecting parental models) or conscious  choice (for example, choosing
lesbianism as part of a political feminist identity).  Others believe
that these factors interact.  Because biological, social, and cultural
factors are different for each person, everyone's sexuality is highly
individual, whether they are bisexual, gay, or lesbian, or
heterosexual.  The "value" placed on a sexual identity should not depend
on its cause.

Many people assume that bisexuality is just a phase people go through.
In fact, any sexual orientation can be a phase.  Humans are diverse,
and individual sexual feelings and behavior change over time.  The
creation and consolidation of a sexual identify is an ongoing process.
Since we are generally socialized as heterosexuals, bisexuality is
stage that many people experience s part of the process of
acknowledging their homosexuality.  Many others come to identify as
bisexuals after a considerable period of identification as gay man or
lesbians.  An orientation that may not be permanent is still valid for
the the period of time it is experienced.  Bisexuality, like
homosexuality and heterosexuality, may be either a transitional step
in the process of sexual discovery, or a stable, long term identity.

How Common is Bisexuality?

It is not easy to say how common bisexuality is, since little research
has been done on this subject; most studies on sexuality have focused
on heterosexuals or homosexuals.  Based on research done by Kinsey in
the 1940's and 1950's, as many as 15-20% of women and 33-46% of men
may be bisexual based on their activities or attractions.

Bisexuals are in many ways a hidden population,  In our culture, it is
generally assumed that a person is either heterosexual (most
frequently) or homosexual (based on appearance or behavioral clues).
Because bisexuality does do fit into these categories, it tends to be
denied or ignored.  When it is recognized  bisexuality is viewed as
being part heterosexual and part homosexual  rather than being a
unique identity.  Bisexuality threatens the accepted way of looking at
the world by calling into question the validity of rigid sexual
categorization, and encourages acknowledgment of the existence of a
diverse range of sexuality.  Since there is not a stereotypical
bisexual appearance or way of acting, bisexuals are usually assumed to
be either heterosexual or homosexual.  In order to increase awareness,
bisexuals have begun to create their own visible communities.

Bisexual Relationships

Bisexuals, like all people, have a wide variance or relationship
styles.  Contrary to common myth, a bisexual person does not need to
be sexually involved with both a woman and a man at the same time.  In
fact, some people who identify as bisexual never engage in sexual
activity with or the other (or either) gender.  As is the case of
heterosexuals and gays, attraction does not involve acting on every
desire.  Like heterosexuals and gays, many bisexuals choose to be
sexually active with one partner only, and have long term monogamous
relationships.  Other bisexuals may have open marriages that allow for
relationships with same sex partners, three-way relationships, or a
number or partners of the same of opposite gender (singly or
simultaneously).  It is important to have the freedom to choose the
type of sexual and affectional relationship that are right for the
people involved, whatever their sexual orientation.

Bisexuals and AIDS

AIDS has had a major effect on the bisexual community.  Bisexual men
are often scapegoated as the agents of transmission of AIDS from the
gay to the heterosexual population.  However, it is behaviors, rather
than sexual orientation, that put people at risk for developing
AIDS.  Activities that involved the exchange of bodily fluids, notably
semen and blood, are especially dangerous.  Bisexuals, as well and
homosexuals and heterosexuals, must educate themselves about safe sex
practices, such as the use of condoms and dental dams.  Safe sex
guidelines can be obtained from community health centers and AIDS
education and action groups.  Bisexuals are joining with gays and
other affected groups in an effort to fight AIDS by calling for an
increase in research and education and an end to discrimination
against people with AIDS and those perceived to be at risk for AIDS.


Bisexuality and Politics

Because bisexuals do not fall within the norms of traditional
sexuality, they experience many of the same types of discrimination
faced by gay men and lesbians.  Bisexuals are likely to face
discrimination in employment, housing, and other opportunities dbn
may be victims of anti-gay violence.

Efforts are underway in many areas to pass gay and lesbian rights
laws; bisexuals must be included under those laws as well.  Bisexual
parents, especially those with non-traditional living arrangements, are
at risk of losing custody of their children, and it is virtually
impossible for acknowledged bisexuals to become foster or adoptive
parents.  Our society must realize that children need a loving and
nurturing home environment, and that the ability to provide that is not
determined by sexual orientation.

Bisexuals are an increasingly visible presence within a variety of
political movements.  Bisexuals are working with gays and lesbians on
issues such as foster care and AIDS, as well as fighting
discrimination against bisexual within the homosexual community.
Efforts are underway to promote education and to counter myths and
biased portrayals of bisexuals.  Many bisexual groups exist for the
purposes of support, socializing, and activism and the number is
growing.  Bisexuals have the potential to become an important part of
the effort to ensure the equal rights for all people and to promote
an acceptance of sexual diversity.

This brochure was prepared by BiCEP (the Bisexual Committee Engaging
in Politics) under the auspices of the East Coast Bisexual Network.
For more information, write to ECBN, PO Box 639, Cambridge, MA,
02140.  For contacts in your area, request the Directory of Bisexual
Groups.  

Has anyone else ever encountered the phrase "Feminism is the theory, lesbianism
is the practice."

I heard it recently for the first time in a book called "Coming to Power"
(the article talked about how common a theme this was in some feminist 
circles, and how ridiculous it was.)

That thought disturbed me greatly...

D!

    D!
    
    Which thought, the phrase itself or the article saying that
    it was ridiculous?
    
    Bonnie

No, but I went to a WITCH lecture where the lecturer said "All women are
lesbians; sometimes only for the last 5 minutes before they fall asleep." I
thought that was a riot. But I guess you had to be there to realize how funny
it was.

D!, if you're interested in why women can think such 'wierd' things, go to a
some radical lectures, or read some radical books. Or talk to someone who has.
Though I don't believe it (given the definitions of feminism and lesbianism _I_
have), I find it a pretty entertaining notion. Understanding something can make
it less disturbing.
	Mez

    D! --
    
    Yes, I have a friend who believes exactly that and who has
    followed through on her beliefs.  The last time I heard from her
    she was living in a lesbian commune somewhere in Colorado.
    
    While I can see her point of view, and accept her choice for
    herself, I can't buy her argument that I'm not a real feminist as
    long as I'm cohabiting with a male-type person.  It doesn't make
    any more sense to me to say a heterosexual woman can find complete
    sexual and emotional fulfillment in relations with only other
    women than it does to say that a lesbian should be able to
    emotionally and sexually satisfy herself in relations with men.  
    
    --bonnie

     <<< Note 31.31 by WMOIS::B_REINKE "If you are a dreamer, come in.." >>>
                          -< Not sure what you meant >-

>    Which thought, the phrase itself or the article saying that
>    it was ridiculous?

Oh sorry, I meant I was disturbed by the thought of someone choosing their
gender "preference" based on politics, not by the article.

It disturbs me because it feels like that particular branch of Feminism is
just as oppresive as any male-dominated society they are fighting.  How
can one be happy if one is suppressing ones heterosexual desires.  (Obviously
this doesn't apply to people who are just Lesbians because that's how they
are - I guess those people are lucky, because they "get to be feminists"
without having to go against their natural grain.  :^)

Hmmm...as for the woman in the commune who is happy having chosen Lesbianism
for political reasons, I don't have a problem with this.  I have a problem
with the idea that we aren't "good feminists" if we don't choose to do the
same.

D!

There are people who will say you're not a good feminist for all sorts of
reasons, not just this one (like owning a cat, or a VCR; honest!).
	Mez

    Mez, how can you be so PI? [ ;') * 0.5 ] One doesn't "own" other
    sentient beings, particularly when they're cats!  
    
    						=maggie-who-gladly-
                                                *supports*-five-cats

    re: .36
    
    � One doesn't "own". . .cats!  
    
    Of course not.  However, my own experiences prove to me that the
    reverse is not necessarily the case.  I'm just grateful that
    The Fuj is a reasonable master. . .
    
    Steve

I remember when my former lover related to me what some of
her friends had said to her, "How can you sleep with your oppressor?"
and "You have to be lesbian to be a real feminist".  Ouch.

I recall being very hurt by these comments.  It felt like I was being
the one oppressed. Who is oppressing who here?  Here is someone that
doesn't even know me or know how much I love X invalidating my
experience because I did not share their orientation or philosophy or
something.  At the time, I wrote it off to their immaturity (they were
young) and insecurity to help me understand and forgive the remarks.

Of course, to me, the real challenge and one I always look forward to
is being in relationship with someone in spite of all the gender based
conditioning that both I and my partner have received.  Working
through it together and finding a better way to live.  I know that it
is possible.

It seems like when one is insecure in one's position, that one wants
everyone to hold the same views or live the same lifestyle.  I recall
this in myself when I first identified as a Zen Buddhist and recall
thinking how surely this was The Way for everyone even though I might
not say it all the time.  Secretly, I thought everyone else was
misguided or ignorant (at best).

It's still a question I think about a lot.  I look around and see so
many ism's and so much intolerance.  The history of communism is full
of jailing and killing those that don't agree with the party line.  In
the United States, I see the attempt to make everyone follow the white
middle class value system including heterosexuality. In gay liberation
movements, the discomfort and non-acceptance (of some) of those who
might be also able to love those of the opposite sex.  The religious
wars where only way is right and everyone else is wrong is going to go
to hell for it.  In the deadhead/hippie  scene, where people not in
the scene can be looked down on and scorned.  How easily the oppressed
can become the oppressors!  A new system of oppression is created and
new liberation movements spring up to replace the old ones (look at
Eastern Europe right now).   I wonder if we will always be this way. 
Cutting off the new left hand or the right hand after it springs up
again.

So I wonder what it is that causes this to happen.  When we start
identifying with something, is that when intolerance arises?  I wonder
if it is possible to be aware and sensitive without identification
with doctrine and dogma.  I have observed for myself that when I have
ideas about something, then there is no more freedom.  At a very
fundamental level, I can't be really free to look, to examine, to
experience if there are preconceptions.  

I wonder if this is related to the problem of political ideologies
that are without a spiritual basis.  It seems to me that sometimes we
are sometimes just tampering with the rules a bit when more
fundamental changes need to occur that would make the rules not so
much of a problem or battleground.    

I've been getting much more political lately and have been very
concerned with environmental, peace, and social issues.  I worry about
becoming too ideological myself and creating more suffering this
world.  I hope that I will not become rigid, intolerant, and not free
to examine things without preconceptions. Most of all, I worry about
not being able to relate to, affect, and love other people even if
they are "on the opposite side" of my beliefs and positions.  I think
that when you are really open, aware, and compassionate even to those
you may disagree with then real change in the world is possible.  

john