Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    I too do not understand the humor of that joke or the motivation
    to post it here, but I think it is making some point about the
    archetypically "distant" father figure. The boy loved the dog, he
    was his playmate; the father was merely that man that came home
    every evening and read the paper and scolded him for the days
    transgressions.
    
    I think it odd that it was posted at just about the same time as
    the Ellen Goodman editorial about the "new" father. Happy Father's
    Day to you too CADSE::GLIDEWELL.
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    

    Just curious,  What would happen if it were, say, a different Gender?
    
    Can you say A N G E R??? Sure, I knew you could...
                                     :-)

    When I read this joke, I didn't think of it as a "feminist" joke,
    it's really a joke about misunderstandings and maybe about the fact
    that some children's attachments to their pets is very strong.
    
    It's not a feminist joke because the male names can be easily replaced
    by female names, having, for example, a dog called "Moni", which
    could be misunderstood for "Mommy". Feminist jokes, as I see them
    are all about the difference between men and women's reactions, not,
    at least in this case, about children misunderstanding words.
    
    So, if you consider it as "just another joke", and not as a "feminist
    joke" (though it was entered under that heading), maybe you can
    just shrug it off, and not be hurt or angered by it?
    
    Now, you can also argue that it's not funny, but that's a different
    point, and I'd like to mention that, funny or not, the same sort
    of thing happened with friends of ours, were Dad was called "Grady"
    (also by his children, progressive family!) and dog "Gary" (I am not 
    sure of the exact names anymore, but they sounded very similar). 
    The misunderstanding did occur when the dog died, and one kid's reaction
    was definitely worse when he knew that it was, in fact, the dog
    that had died.                                                
    
    And I definitely would find it very "unfunny" if my daughters had
    similar reactions...
    
    Joana
     

    I think it's kind of funny that in past generations some men were
    so distant from their children, and left so much of the parenting
    up to their wives, that some kids probably *were* closer to their
    dogs than to their own fathers! :-)
    
    I also think it's nice that in our generation most men are taking
    a more active role in parenting.
    
    The joke really doesn't work when switched to Mommy because women
    have traditionally been the ones who were most closely involved
    in the rearing of children.  The joke is that the father was so
    uninvolved (as many men were in the past) that the kid missed the
    dog more than he would his father.  His father was apparently never
    around anyway so why should he miss him if he died.
    
    Lorna
    

    Interesting sidelight...
    
    	I've told that joke to several people in the last few days since
    I read it. The majority of the women find it not funny while the
    majority of the men find it hilarious. I had actually believed that
    the results would be just the opposite. Guess it shows that humor
    is just a big joke....

    I heard the joke through the filter of having worked with a lot
    of women survivors of incest from a male relative.
    
    In that context (even though the main character was a boy), the
    joke makes total sense -- a child who had a loving and supportive
    relationship with her/his father would simply *not* have a passive 
    reponse to hearing that their father died.

    re: .7
    
    Actually, an incest survivor would have a reaction that is anything
    but passive.  Be the survivor male or female.

    On the original question - the purpose of humour.
    
    
    The purpose of humour is to make someone smile or laugh. It needn't
    make *everyone* smile or laugh. Just one person is sufficient.
    Admittedly the best humour is the kind that many people can appreciate
    but don't rule something out as "Not Funny" just because it didn't
    tickle *you*. If someone somewhere enjoyed it then it was humourous.
    It's a very subjective, abstract and relative concept.
    
    Most humour can be classified into one of the following groups :
    
    Rascist
    Sexual
    Obscene
    Embarassing
    One-upmanship
    
    Humour that doesn't fit into one of the above groups is likely to
    reach the widest audience and is often the funniest kind.
    
	
    Finally, I have a joke for you all ...
    
        
    What's Old, Grey and Pink and belongs to Grandad ?
    
    Grandma
    
    Think about it first and then determine what your reaction was/is.
    
    Teensy weensy little itsy bit sexist, was it ?
        
    I DO hope that you weren't offended by what you may call a "sexist"
    element to the joke because you will find that if you reverse the
    roles of the characters you will get what the readers of this
    conference call "A Feminist Joke". Of course, feminist jokes aren't
    sexist, right ? They just put men into persepective a little, don't
    they. They simply illustrate the REAL roles of men and women in
    society and their humour relies on the sheer blatency of the statement,
    don't they.
    
    
    If you REALLY believe that and you call yourself a feminist then
    maybe you're doing your cause more harm than good.
    
    
    
    				Jamie.

    

I originally read the note assuming some kind of child abuse.

On Topic:

My favorite kind of humor is one that makes the person I am telling it to
feel included; an 'in' joke... usually a double meaning play on words based
on a shared experience.

JMB

Why did I post those two oldies?

It disappointed me that 22.0 remained empty for an entire week.  So 
I decided to post a few oldies. (Oldies circa 1930.)

Gee, why did 22 remain empty so long?  Could it be that
potential posters wished to avoid hearing "that's not funny, 
that's not feminist, that's sexist, yada, yada, yada."

Buckets of research have been done on humor during the last ten 
years.  Among the findings relevant to this conference ...

o  A female is the target/victim/butt of most jokes that involve gender.

o  The researchers did swaps on jokes that were symmetrical, and asked
   people to rate the jokes on a funny scale.  For any given joke 
   (that is, same joke but restructured to switch victim):

    -   When a female was the target, the joke was rated funny by 
        80-90% of males and 70-80% of females.
   
    -   When a male was the target, the joke was rated funny by 
        40-50% of males and 60-70% of females.

o  When male-female couples are in comedy clubs, many females 
   laugh out loud only if their male partner laughs out loud. 


Re classifying humor:

Humor addresses the same subject as literature:  Everything.

    Just wanted to remind everyone of the existence of this topic to
    react to the "jokes" entered in the "Feminist humor" topic.
    
    
               <<< RAINBO::$2$DJA6:[NOTES$LIBRARY]WOMANNOTES-V2.NOTE;1 >>>
                        -< Topics of Interest to Women >-
================================================================================
Note 22.2            Feminist Humor;  READ AT YOUR OWN RISK!              2 of 7
TFH::MARSHALL "hunting the snark"                    20 lines  12-SEP-1988 17:48
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    {paraphrased from a letter to Ann Landers}
    
    Man: God, why did You make women so beautiful?
    
    God: So that you would like them.
    
    Man: Why did You make them so soft?
    
    God: Again, so that you would like them. 
    
    Man: Why then did you make them so stupid?
    
    God: So they would like *you*.
    
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    
================================================================================
Note 22.3            Feminist Humor;  READ AT YOUR OWN RISK!              3 of 7
METOO::LEEDBERG                                      22 lines  12-SEP-1988 20:03
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

re :-1

What the H**L do you think makes that feminist humor????

First of all it is not funny, second it is insulting to women and men and
lastly it is not even feminist.

_peggy

		(-)
		 |

			Feminist humor as defined by who.

			Men have only two faults:
			everything they say
			and everthing they do.

			Is that funny to you?

    

================================================================================
Note 22.4            Feminist Humor;  READ AT YOUR OWN RISK!              4 of 7
QUARK::LIONEL "In Search of the Lost Code"            8 lines  12-SEP-1988 23:03
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I'm beginning to wonder if there IS such a thing as "feminist humor",
    if one must eliminate all humor that is insulting.  This
    topic doesn't seem to show much evidence to the contrary....
    
    What might be some of the topics of feminist humor?  Given that
    almost ALL humor is at someone's expense, what "feminist" funny
    subjects are available? 
    					Steve
================================================================================
Note 22.5            Feminist Humor;  READ AT YOUR OWN RISK!              5 of 7
MCIS2::AKINS "The truth never changes.....Einstein"  19 lines  13-SEP-1988 00:00
                                -< Bigotry??? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Any "humor" which depicts any group of people as being inferior,
    is not only not funny but it is the product of a extreamly sick
    mind!  Does being a feminist also mean bigotry?  I should hope not.
    I realize that there is a warning on this not to read at your own
    risk, but that is not sufficient enough.  The whole concept of having
    a note with the sole purpose of slamming the opposite sex is mind
    boggling and disgusting!  I'm sure Digitals policy on valueing
    differences would frown apon such off-color humor.  I strongly suggest
    the Moderator get rid of this garbage before someone hears of it's
    contents.  I don't care what "fuels" this type of juvinial behavior,
    there is no excuse for any gender/racial jokes.  Sorry, for flaming,
    even though the jokes were not offensive to me,  the idea of jokes
    of that type is.  Just remember, for every joke on one side there
    is one for the other.  I know several jokes that slam females, 
    I just have more class and intelligence to reapeat such dribble.
    
    
    Bill
    
================================================================================
Note 22.6            Feminist Humor;  READ AT YOUR OWN RISK!              6 of 7
QUARK::LIONEL "In Search of the Lost Code"           14 lines  13-SEP-1988 00:34
                               -< Playing games >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Re: .5
    
    Given that, to me, feminism is "being in support of women", I don't
    consider feminism to automatically imply "slamming" of men (though
    some would apparently disagree).  I am hoping to uncover some
    humor topic that is positive towards women but not negative towards
    men.
    
    The original replies to this note were removed precisely because
    all of the jokes presented were either insulting towards men,
    insulting towards women, or both.  Why do so many people have
    to consider life a zero-sum game?  Hasn't anyone heard of win-win?
    
    					Steve
================================================================================
Note 22.7            Feminist Humor;  READ AT YOUR OWN RISK!              7 of 7
SHIRE::BIZE                                          37 lines  13-SEP-1988 04:14
                     -< What about starting from scratch? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I am quite astonished that this subject, maybe because of it's title,
    manages to get one person, male or female, pretty heated every time
    something is entered. 95% of humor is at the expense of somebody,
    and is bound to offend someone. The jokes in here (including the
    deleted ones, though I don't remember the story they told) are pretty
    mild compared to what we meet in the outside world. I guess "animal"
    jokes, like how do you sit 4 elephants in a Mini, are more or less
    the only totally inoffensive jokes (now if elephants could talk...)
    
    I think this note could be used - maybe - to discuss humor, or even
    feminist humor, as Steve suggested, and what it is, rather than
    to enter jokes which are bound to annoy someone: jokes should be
    fun, not a source of conflict. 
    
    A French cartoonist, Claire Bretecher, has drawn series of very
    witty and very cruel cartoons, called "Les M�res" (The Mothers) and
    "Les Frustr�s" (The Frustrated). They depict both men and women
    in everyday modern life. She is probably more cruel to women than
    to men, because, a woman herself, she sees our foibles from the
    inside. Should we discard her work because:
    
    	1) it pokes fun at women;
    	2) it pokes fun a men;
    	3) it uses humor to reveal the gap between what we think and
    	   what we do (the people she depicts are frequently intellec-
    	   tuals struggling to apply their theoretical knowledge to
    	   everyday problems)
                                                 
    If we can't treat a subject lightly, let's treat it seriously:
    
    	a) what is feminist humor;                              
    
    	b) if feminist humor is at the expense of men, is it acceptable,
    	   or should it be discarded because it promotes sexism?
                
                                                                       
    Joana

    >Note 22.1 LISP::CARRASCO
    >This reply was prompted by 105.13, "what triggers the NRA virus?"
    >
    >Answer:  Testosterone, "the turkey hormone". 
    >         It turns perfectly nice people into turkeys.
    >
    >Pilar.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Peggy Leedberg (22.3),          
    
    Where was your wrath when this "joke" was entered? First of all it is
    not funny, second it is insulting to men and lastly it is not even 
    feminist.
    
    The only difference I see is that this joke is only insulting to
    men, while the one I entered you think insults both men and women.
    
    But how does it insult women? Do you not see that the punchline
    invalidates the question of "why women are stupid"? 
    
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    
    

I did not see that note - I don't read every note - so I can only respond
to the ones I do read 

BTW - I think that women have that hormone also.

_peggy
    

    re .14:
    
   >  -< What is your problem? >-
      
    My "problem" is the rather hostile nature of 22.3.
    
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    

    A bit more calm, folks?  Please?
    
    						=maggie

    re:.13
    
    "But how does it insult women?"
    
    Let me guess...by calling them stupid?
    
    --- jerry

       I read an article in the Colo Spgs Gazzett Telegraph this weekend
       that was about a new book explaining humor. Of course I remember
       nothing about the title or author, but I do remember one thing he
       stated as fact. This is a paraphrase...

       Jokes that are derogatory towards other groups are usually an
       attempt to trivialise and laugh at something we are afraid of
       facing. He claimed the "dead baby" jokes of the sixties were
       attempts by women to fight against the role of mother/care
       giver that they were forced into.

       I'm not sure what I think about it yet but it is food for thought.
       liesl

    re .17:
    
    The joke does not call women stupid. The Man character calls them
    stupid. God's reply to that makes it clear that Man is an ass and
    therefore his opinion of the intelligence of women is not a valid
    assessment.
    
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    

    re .19
    
    Does it really matter who you call stupid?  Can't you find humor
    by laughing at life's little games and not by insulting people?
    Bill Cosby is one example of a very funny comedian who does not
    use ethnic/gender jokes.  People like Eddie Murphy use that type
    of humor often.  I admit I laugh at some of the material,  but it
    still leaves a bad taste.
    
    Bill

    re .20:
    
    Neither does it call men stupid or asses, it ridicules the *attitude*
    of the Man character.
    
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
     

    RE .21:
    
    I don't care if it calls them stupid or not.  The point is that
    any joke that depicts any group of people as being one way or the
    other shows litte class.  Even though, your joke did have only
    two people in it, MAN and God,  the use of the term MAN includes
    all men, (and the term WOMEN, includes all women).  It would have
    been a much better joke if you gave the the Man a name and maybe
    have him asking God about his wife.  This way it would have narrowed
    down the generality of the comment.  Like I said, I was not offended
    by the jokes contents.  I just don't like jokes that attack groups
    of people.
    
    Bill
    

It has been claimed that the pun is the only form of humor that doesn't depend 
on embarrassment, ridicule, etc.

    RE .23 Problem is, they're so seldom funny.

    [This was originally entered under note 22, but I moved it, since
    it seemed to belong here.  Sorry, if you happened to get caught
    in the whirlwind copy/modify/delete circle...]
    
    A while back, in SoapBox, I proposed the idea that:
    
    "Everything funny, ridicules."
    
    This could be as obvious as a Polish joke, or as subtle as someone
    ridiculing (perhaps "ridicule" is a bit strong here, but it still
    applies) themselves, by making a funny (catch that word, folks?)
    expression when caught in an embarassing situation.
    
    The 'boxers batted it around for a while.
    
    Exaggeration, hyperbole, etc. were all covered, and found to be
    forms of ridicule.
    
    There was an exception to the rule: the unexpected.  People are
    inclined to laugh when faced with the (unthreatening) unexpected.
    The best example would be Dick Van Dyke falling over the cassock
    when he walks in the house...  (The pun also falls in this category
    - we're caught unawares by the double meanings, etc.)
    
    I hesitate to say that there isn't a lot that's unexpected about
    feminists, but ridicule is the easiest humor device...
    
    re: .21
    
    You mentioned that you found Bill Cosby to be:
    
    a) funny
    b) unethnic/ungendered in his jokes
    
    I agree with a).  I disagree with b).  If you saw "Bill Cosby,
    Himself", you'd notice the way he characterized his wife - 
    
    "Having kids does something to a woman...  She becomes deformed; 
    her mouth pulls down at the corners, and her fingers curl into..."
    
    You also said that "any joke that depicts any group of people as
    being one way or the other shows little class".  That's subjective
    to who's telling it, and where.  Would you criticize an overwieght
    person for telling "fat people" jokes, even using him/herself to
    characterize them?  One routine I saw, there's this obviously
    overwieght guy standing on stage...
    
    "You know those 'Almost Home Cookies'?  I didn't get anywhere near
    home.  I didn't even get them out of the store, before they were
    gone."
    
    The string went on...
    
    
    Bill
    
    

    I think the "Tables Turned" (as Isaac Asimov calls it) class
    of jokes can be funny without ridiculing in general - we laugh
    at someone who did something that came back at them in an unexpected
    fashion.  (Classic case is the joker who sets up a pail of water
    over a door to catch an unsuspecting friend, and then triggers it
    themselves.)
    
    Since these kinds of jokes are personal (you are laughing at the
    actions of a specific person, not a group), it's hard to be
    offended, but I also cannot imagine how one could come up with
    a "feminist" joke in this category.
    
    				Steve

    re: .26
    
   >I think the "Tables Turned" (as Isaac Asimov calls it) class
   >of jokes can be funny without ridiculing in general - we laugh
   >at someone who did something that came back at them in an unexpected
   >fashion.
    
    but then, we are laughing at the person who was out to get us, we
    are laughing at the person's inability to even carry out a prank
    with getting caught in it.  the embarassment factor is still there,
    no matter who ends up the victim.

    If a joke that pokes fun at an entire class of people is considered
    inappropriate, then there can be no Feminist jokes, as Feminists
    are a class of people (just as there cannot be any Men jokes, Fat
    jokes, etc.)  There can only be jokes about *a* Feminist, who is
    an individual, but then any label can be interchanged now.

    <ahem> I think we have different interpretations of what a "feminist
    joke" is. I always thought it was a joke of particular interest
    to feminists, not one told at their expense.
    
    liz

    re .28, .29:
    
    reminds me of the old joke:
    
    	If vegetarians are people who eat vegetables, 
    	what do humanitarians eat?
    
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    

    
    Or another old one:
    
      If infants enjoy their infancy so much,
    
      What about adults enjoying their adultery?
    
      
      Alan

    If it is accepted that Polish jokes are about Polish people and
    Product Manager jokes are about Product Managers, etc, etc...  It
    stands to reason that Feminist jokes would be about Feminists.
                                
    				;-)
    
    I know, be damned the logic!  And likewise, if Feminist jokes are
    jokes "of interest" to Feminists, I would imagine that Polish jokes
    are "of interest" to Polish people.  Some how though, that doesn't
    seem to ring true...
    
    jim
    
    

    But what we have in this conference is not "feminist jokes" but
    "feminist humor".  If I saw a book in the library called _An
    Anthology of Polish Humor_, I would assume that it was humor of the
    Poles, not "Polish jokes."
    
    	-Neil

    
    Hi. I'm new around here. I don't think I've even posted an intro
    yet. But this topic caught my eye because I love good humor (actually
    I'm more into Ben and Jerry's - sorry). 
    
    I was disturbed by someone in a previous note who mentioned Bill
    Cosby because his jokes do not refer to a particular group of people.
    Although I despise racist or sexist or age-ist jokes, I think it
    is going a bit too far to the other extreme to rule out ALL
    comtroversial humor, which I thought was what appealed to this person
    about Cosby. For example, Lenny Bruce insulted groups of people
    - he insulted racists and religious fanatics. I guess the
    point I am trying to make is that sometimes humor that makes a point
    will offend someone.  I think it's worth the risk if it mkes you
    stop and think. 
                       
    Glad to have finally joine in the fray of this great notes file!
    
    Roberta
    
    P.S. My opinion of the joke about pink, shrivelled and grey (grandma)
    is that it was not sexist. It could, however, be called "age-ist".
           
    P.P.S. As a side note: I have a friend who manages a comedy club
    in New York at the Village Gate. He said the one good thing about
    Bush being elected will be that it'll be great for comedians!!