Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    Mel earns the same (sometimes more) than me.  I bess get more thanr
    that!  After the months I saved up (without her knowing) to get
    that beautiful hutch that she enviedfor mothers day, I bess get more 
    than that! I give the boy breakfast EVERY MORNING, I bess get more 
    than that! Almost every morning i get HER breakfast, I bess get 
    more than that!    :-)  This is ***MY*** day, I bess get more than
    that!  :-)
                               AL the EQUAL partner of Melissa.
    

    re: .0
    
    My mother is a staunch feminist.  She never felt any need to give
    any credit to men for giving up something they had no right to have
    exclusively.  I agree with that philosophy.  Similarly, I honestly
    can't sympathize with such a woman described as in the base note.
    I wouldn't consider the gift being offered worth much.  "Here, I
    am freely giving you what is rightfully yours.  Enjoy."

    I can agree that a couple who are united in their philosophy regarding
    the home can be proud of that, and that one is not be dominated
    in the household roles is wonderful.  It is good for a couple to
    recognize when they have an appropriate living arrangement.
    
    It is no more approrpriate for any woman to think she is giving
    her SO a gift when she allows him to raise their children equally,
    then it is for a man to consider he is giving his SO a gift by
    allowing her equal opportunity in the decision making process.
    In truth, neither allows the other to do anything; neither is giving
    anything.  You can't give something you don't have.  Period !

    
    re:.2
    hear! hear!
    

    I am not sure what to make of the replies to this note...it certainly
    was unexpected and they have made me think a little.
    
    Unfair as it might be the big engineer designed women to bear children
    and in so doing she/he did not build in a way to identify the fathers
    of these children.  
            
    Having had my children in the early 60's when father's were just
    beginning to be a part of the birthing process I do not recall men
    fighting for that involvement....they in fact were encourage by
    their partners.  The bonding process that begins at birth was 
    a result of women needing the support during the process of birth.
    
    Women instinctively want to care for their children...not saying
    that men don't also...but most men did not take an active part in
    the rearing of children until they were asked to by their partners.
    
    So to discredit the article by stating that we as women cannot give
    what is not ours to give....why didn't men fight for this right
    as we have had to fight for the right to vote for instance?  Why
    was it that women were the ones to begin the movement of greater
    involvement of fathers in the rearing of their children?

    If you're surprised by these responses, you should see the responses
    this articles got in Parenting (note 490!  Most of the resplies
    seem to be from fathers who were angered (a) that women would try
    to take the credit for making them the involved fathers that they
    are, (b) that we would feel these ambivalent feelings at all (sound
    familiar?), and (c) that we would dare to express them on _their
    day (thus stealing their limelight, I guess).
                                               
    -Tracy             
                                     

    
    	RE .7
    
    	No Joyce, it just might be like in my case, I was not allowed
    	to be a part of any of the process until my now ex-wife came
    	home from the hosipital!! I would have loved to be part of the
    	process, her mother was, but the hospitial didn't allow fathers
    	to share in it! I didn't even have any say as to the name, when
    	I asked why I wasn't asked if the choice my ex gave was okay,
    	the hospitial told me I didn't count!!
    
    	So not all fathers had to prodded into caring, some of us didn't
    	get the chance!
    
    	G_B

    Maybe women DID begin the movement to encourage male involvement
    in child birthing and rearing. And maybe women sensed that fathers
    needed a more important role than they were socially allowed to
    have in raising children...
    
    I'm a fairly new father but I've experienced more male social pressure
    to be less involved with child rearing - you know, "You're not supposed
    to be changing diapers, waking up at 2 AM to feed the unsettled
    child or taking the boys to the park so mommy can have some time
    off" . All we needed was to be acknowledged and encouraged in this
    role. Fathers feel very empty when mommy has all the answers for
    the kids. We need to feel a deeper involvement in the product of
    two lives. 
    	I, for one, often became hesitant to take on bigger chunks of
    involvment because of male family and friends - even of less
    understanding female family and friends. When our my wife, two sons
    and me visit my mother-in-law, she chastises my wife when I get
    up early to make breakfast for my boys. What she doesn't understand
    is that breakfast with my boys is special to me. Even though they're
    only 3yr and 2yr old, we have nice talks about mommy, our day, dreams,
    etc. without the annoyances that begin later in the morning. Of
    the ump-teen numbers of men that I know with families, none admit
    to this type of behavior. Are they afraid to admit it? Do they really
    not enjoy having a quiet breakfast with their children? I honestly
    believe that the female half of the parents has failed to see the
    need for dads increased involvement. Dad can't be upfront about
    it for whatever out-dated reasons. 
    
    	I guess the male ego just needs a subtle nudge to reach out and 
    become involved where we have traditionally been strangers. When
    male equality in this part of life becomes the rule instead of the
    exception I believe the family will regain the fullness that it
    lost when mothers entered the job market. We've taken from the family
    a full time mother, so we need to give back a better, more involved
    father.
    
    mike                                   
    

    If its any help to you Mike, my father always made us breakfast
    when I was young.  My mother is a late starter until she has her
    tea and a newspaper, but we always woke up hungry, so dad was the
    morning person and mom the afternoon and evening shift. This has
    been going on since the late '40's.
    
    Meg
    

Men did not initiate becoming more involved in the family because they had their
hands full being the breadwinners.  It probably would have been percieved as a
threat to mothers in any case.  Or, as pointed out, it existed and was simply
not noticed. 

I can remember some very special times with my father when I was young, and I
can't say that I thought that my father was better then other fathers. 

What .0 says to me is 'thanks for nothing; I'm the one who deserves praise
for letting you be a part of your children!'  Barf!

Jim. 

    re .12, that's a generalization, Jim.  There were plenty of working
    class families in the 40's, 50's, 60's where the women worked to
    help pay the bills because they had to so the family wouldn't be
    out in the streets, and where the husband still left most of the
    childcare up to the woman.  Both men and women accepted these roles
    as traditions without question for years.  It is not the fault of
    either sex.  Everybody was just doing what they believed to be right.
     Thankfully, at some point in the 60's people began to question
    traditions that had been accepted for generations.
    
    Lorna
    

    I find it interesting that many of the men's replies here and in
    Parenting are reversals of the things I said about my role as a
    woman when I started into the working world 15 or so years ago,
    when I felt like every man I met was denigrating my ability,
    telling me to go home, and refusing to allow me a chance to try to
    work because I wouldn't do it up to their standards. 

    And the men I knew had, and are still having, ambiguous feelings
    about women in general and their woman in particular having her
    own job, her own income, and her own independence. A woman who
    isn't financially dependent on her man can leave him whenever he
    wants, and that change in the order of things is very threatening.
    I don't think too many men made it through these changes without
    some internal agonizing about the relaxing of financial control
    and a fight or two. 
    
    Similarly, sharing parenting with the loving father of your
    children is a threatening thing to do because the mother's role
    changes, too.  I haven't made it through without a lot of
    agonizing about assumptions I had learned and never questioned
    before.  
    
    Acknowledging these feelings of ambivalence is not unreasonable.
    It would have been equally reasonable for one of these "new
    fathers" to have written a column for Mother's Day exploring his
    ambivalent feelings and fear of losing his children.  Honoring our
    own parents and the people who have taken on the role of parent
    does not mean we have to brush issues and concerns under the rug. 
    
    --bonnie