Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    hi. it sounds like this has been very painful for you but that you're
    willing to work slowly on the relationship. one possibility is to
    agree to meet for dinner and offer to make hotel reservations for
    your sister's family. that would allow you to set limits, to meet
    on neutral territory, and to keep your own territory intact.
    
    best of luck. please let us know what you decide to do.
    liz

    Noter --
    
    I need to be a "good person" in my own mind, and no one elses. 
    To that end, I open my heart and my home to anyone who needs or requests
    it.  At least I am certain, even if the visit is uncomfortable,
    that I have done my best to ammend relations.  Sometimes the results
    are astonishing; other times, there is little noted difference.
    
    Either way, I have had more than my share of returned kindness and
    generosity expressed in return, and I believe that for every positive
    effort that I put forth, I get 10 positive responses in return.
    
    Only you can decide if the effort is worth it.

    I suggest you send her a letter, voicing your feelings.  Say honestly
    (if it is true) that you wish to become closer to her, or that you
    want to be friends with her...but also mention any discomfort you
    have over the past - and how this may slow the process of your
    reaquaintance with her.
    
    Shortly after my  mother and my aunt bore children, my aunt wrote
    my mother a note saying what an awful mother she was...and so forth.
     Eventually they made peace (after several years), and are fairly
    close now.  I suppose one thing that may have made it easier for
    my mother to see her way clear to reunion was the fact that my aunt's
    children, due to "parental academic pressure" developed some pretty
    bizarre habits (bed-wetting at 8, eating only 3 or 4 different
    foods at 10), so perhaps my mother felt that "the proof was in the
    pudding", as my sister and I did pretty well as kids go.  The point
    is, things rejoined just fine - but not all at once...in discrete
    steps.  In the letter, you can suggest the hotel stay perhaps -
    but if you just ask her to stay somewhere nearby without an
    explanation, she may think you are trying to reverse the situation
    - that you are censoring her for her past behavior, and wish to
    remove yourself from her as much as possible.
    
    -whatever you do, be comfortable with your decision.
    
    -Jody

	I'm no expert, but I've had to deal with my once-hated
sister spending 6 months in my house and turning around the 
relationship within a year.

	My recommendation is to prepare for the visit.
I would go through an intensive process to finish old business,
and take up new business - why wait, or prolong the agony.

	Where something happened in the past, you need to get a fix
on it.  State the facts to yourself.  Then look at the reaction
your sister had, and the reaction you had.  Look at the tree
of consequences in your mind - your discomfort, your avoidance,
dread, whatever.  

	Then look at the path your relationship could or will
take.  Set forth the ideals.  Look at pragmatic things that will
work.  List questions that you have, organize your thoughts toward
successfully working it out, standing on new ground and moving.

	Even for the secular realm, two of the most difficult
archetypal stories are those of Job, and the Prodigal Son Returns.
You need to keep your vision clear beyond the immediate circumstances,
learn from yourself and your sister, and draw forth new strength and
direction for your family and your world.  It works!  Good luck.

I have to second .1.  You have been deeply wounded by your sister's 
previous attitude, and to pretend that this is nothing may seem saintly, 
but certainly isn't good for you.  If you can call her again, I suggest 
you tell her that her past behavior has hurt you and your child deeply,
but that you would like it if there could be a new relationship in your 
future.  Tell her this is a major adjustment for you, and that you would 
like to get to know each other again at a pace you can handle. 

Putting her and her family up in your home is a setup for much pain and 
disappointment.  It's not clear what either of you are going to bring to 
this arrangement in the way of unspoken expectations. I don't want to
seem cynical, but there is a possibility that her feelings aren't
motivated by remorse, enlightenment, or love, but convenience.  If she
has no apology for the past, it could be that she is only awkward at
expressing such difficult feelings.  It could also mean that she treated
you before like an object, without regard for your feelings or reality,
and she is doing it again.  I'm am sorry to say that, since it would be
wonderful if this was the beginning of a beautiful reconciliation and
extended family relationship for your child.  However, you can't let
what you might like to see interfere with dealing with the situation as
it really is, and doing what is best for you and your child. 

Putting her up in a motel will allow you to assess things and move at
your own pace.  If she isn't understanding of this, then things aren't
getting off to a good start, and it would only be worse if she were in
your home. 

    Having had a similar problem with my sister being estranged for many
    years, I can strongly relate to your current pain and indecision.
    It is hard to build bridges when there is a canyon between you,
    but if you BOTH really want the gap to close, it can, with lots
    of effort, be done.  What my sister and I ended up doing was talking
    things out over the phone over several days.  This gave us both
    a chance to say what we had to say without having to do it face
    to face.  In the end, we agreed to meet and try to start being sisters
    again.  After an uncomfortable beginning, we finally began feeling at
    ease with each other and began a new and more aware relationship.
    Today, we are still close though many miles separate us. If you
    don't speak to your sister by phone again before her visit, you
    may consider writing her a letter explaining your feelings and asking
    her to share her thoughts.  It would be a start.
    
    Several things...Don't pretend the past didn't happen.  It did,
    and it has created a problem between you.  It will be better to
    deal with your feelings and those of your sister BEFORE trying to
    start fresh, then you will be ready to give it another try.  It
    will also be less stressful in the long run to NOT mask your feelings.
    
    Secondly, I agree with .1 who has suggested NOT having your sister
    stay with you.  You are going to need "think time" for dealing with
    all the "stuff" that is going to come out, and your child will
    undoubtedly need a little space to deal with whatever comments or
    actions come out during her/his initial playtime with the cousins.
    It may be that the cousins have some very slanted views.  It's
    something you will need to find out and possibly deal with.
                            
    Whatever you decide, good thoughts are with you. Please let us know
    what happens. 
                             
    Barb

    I'd start with giving her a phone call.  Look, here's she made
    what seems to be a complete about-face.  How did it happen?  What
    was the trigger?  Express (tentatively at first) interest in this,
    and try to get her to open up about it.
    
    If she really has had a change of heart, let her talk your ear off
    about it.  Then (if it's still true) you can explain that this is
    all so new to you and you have to work on it a bit, but you'll call
    her back.  If she has not truly changed, then you can express your
    discomfort and dissatisfaction -- as calmly and non-judgementally
    as possible -- as mentioned in the earlier replies.
    
    							Ann B.

    My daughter was born out of wedlock 14 years ago, and I remember
    very well some of the painful feelings and family resentments that
    we had to work through.  Thank God none of our problems lasted
    as long as a decade and a half! 
    
    It took such a long time to mend those relationships.  And the
    rift between your sister and yourself is much deeper and older
    than the rifts I had to cross and eventually close.  The first
    steps on both our parts were grudging, in ways more hurtful than
    the estrangement had been. I had been hurt badly by their
    rejection; they were hurt by my failure to live up to their
    dreams.  Their expectation may have been unrealistic but their
    pain was real. 
    
    It's important for you to admit your feelings to yourself. Were
    you angry because she didn't support you?  Disappointed because
    you expected her help?  Vindicated because she said all the bad
    things you thought about yourself, so you could just be angry at
    her and not realize how angry you were with yourself? These are
    all things I remember feeling.  Depending on your situation and
    family, you may have similar feelings -- or far different ones. 
    
    It's important for you to remember, also, that whatever you may
    think of her reasons for feeling hurt, angry, or whatever, her
    feelings are real. 
    
    I had some relatives with whom I had to work through the hurt
    before we could see each other comfortably.  I had other relatives
    who resumed social intercourse with the appearance of normalcy
    while the old hurts still went on underneath and were worked out
    gradually, over the course of several years.  Your relationship
    with your sister would make a difference here.  If you were close
    before your baby came, you might be safe jumping straight into
    explaining your hurt, disappointment, whatever.  If you were not
    close, or if your family was like mine and wasn't used to talking
    about emotions, you might be better off establishing some routine
    contact before you try to express your feelings.  
    
    I remember, too, that some relatives didn't really approve of my
    situation until I got married.  They were willing to resume
    relations with me and overlook my slip, but they weren't willing
    to change their judgement of my behavior.  I decided I didn't
    really need an apology or an admission I was in the right; you may
    well feel differently. 
    
    I'm kind of rambling here, but I hope you find some of it useful. 
    
    --bonnie    

    Add me to the concensus on not having her stay with you.  It's awkward
    enough with people who get along really well.
    
    Although you're understandably confused, you might not want to press
    your sister about "why'd you change your mind?".  If she's trying
    to forget that things were ever strained between you, she won't
    react well to having it brought up.  So you might want to feel around
    the issue a little and move into the subject gradually, rather than
    just coming right out and confronting her.  (You might not think
    of it as a confrontation, but she might.)
    
    Definitely explain that things are moving too fast for you.  "I'm
    really happy about this, but I just need time to get used to the
    change."  Maybe you could start setting up plans for another meeting
    in a few months, to demonstrate your commitment to this reconciliation.

    Another "concensus" voice here; others have already said it
    far more eloquently than I, so I won't belabor that.  All
    I'd add is that while I heartily commend your forgiving
    nature, I'm not sure how you can grant that forgiveness until
    it's asked for.  Until Sis is willing to face that music, I 
    don't personally feel that she's earned the right to request
    lodging in a house she's scorned.
    
    Best of luck,
    
    Steve
    

    I am really suprised by the replys found here.  I would also hasten
    to add that I am pleased to read them.  I come from a highly
    disfunctional family.  There is one sibling to whom I have not spoken
    in years.  The last time I did speak with him, he hearled a bunch
    of insults at me and then proceded to deny having done so to the
    rest of the family.  He told everyone that I had made it up in order
    to turn the rest of the family against him.  My point is that if
    he called me up after 15 years and acted as if nothing had happened,
    and wanted to come and stay over night (after I picked myself up
    off the floor) I'd be hard pressed to ignore the past, though I
    would probably feel in my heart that I should put past transgressions
    aside.  In 27.10, however, it is stated that "I'm not sure how you
    can grant that forgiveness until it's asked for".  Darned if that
    isn't the truth!  I think it is only right that the offending party
    take responsibility for past actions.  If they now feel that they
    were wrong, or if they no longer feel the way they did in the past, 
    it should be stated.  There's no reason for you to feel like an ogre 
    for expecting it.
    
    Marion

    The following is from the author of .0
    
    ---------------------------------------------

  Thanks very much for the thoughtful responses to my basenote.  You've
  given me quite a bit to think about while I decide what to do.

  One thing I wanted to make clear is that my sister and I have never
  had a direct confrontation about her feelings.  That is to say, we've
  never had an argument about any of this (and I'm not at all sure
  that she knows how aware I am of her former attitude about us.)  I've
  always been polite to her when we've had the rare occasion of finding
  ourselves talking during family long-distance phone calls (or meeting
  at rare get-togethers with aunts and uncles.)  I've never tried to
  change her mind about her opinion of me for having a child out of
  wedlock.  I just accepted it (and was glad that she was the only family
  member that had a problem with my child's birth.)

  The hard part (for both me and my child) is that her attitude did not
  gradually change over the past decade or so.  Just two years ago, there
  was an incident where she had planned to send her oldest child (who is
  a year younger and the same sex as my child) to visit my parents.  My
  folks were both thrilled about it because my child already had plans
  to be there at the same time (and the cousins would finally meet.)

  When my sister found out that my child was going to be there, she 
  cancelled the whole trip (telling my parents that she didn't want her
  child "exposed" to my child, and using an insulting new label for my
  child that I don't even want to mention here.)  My parents were very,
  very upset about the conversation (and spent weeks trying to figure
  out how to explain to me why the summer plans had changed.)  When the
  story finally came out (reluctantly), we were all very shaken up about
  it.  Another sister calmly said that my other sister has some fairly deep-
  seated prejudices and that it was a shame (but, once again, we all just
  accepted it in the end.)

  I'm delighted that my sister seems to have gotten over some of those
  prejudices, but with the recent affront having happened just two years
  ago, my child and I are extremely uneasy about mending the fences so
  suddenly (and at such a rapid pace.)

  Need to do quite more thinking on the whole thing, I guess.  Thanks
  again for all the considerate responses.

    .0 could you clarify one thing. It sounds in your last reply like
    the issue between you and your sister is more than just the issue
    of your having a child without being married. Is your child by
    a person of a race different from yours perhaps? Having four such
    children myself I am aware of how strong feelings can be in such
    cases.
    
    Bonnie

First, congrats on Not giving your sister a right to the chin.  With 
her attitudes, you may have found the whole family cheering you on.

If you can stand the possible confrontation, call your sis and get a
feel for her current attitude. (I don't think a letter or a few months 
to adjust to the idea of the visit will make you more comfortable; a 
phone call might.)

If possible, let them stay at your house, even it you must plainly say
"yes, I'd love to have you all, but while you're here, be sure you 
don't say something offensive to my child or me." (Think what you 
want, sis, but watch your mouth.)

I think it's really important that the kids get to know one another. 
Kids want to know their aunts and uncles and cousins. (Her kids are
probably very curious about Aunt X and will be delighted to get to
know you and your child.) 

Finally, whether they stay with you or at a motel, Be Prepared to 
Throw Her Out or Cut Her Off.  People usually sense this kind of 
... line? ... attitude?  ...stance?  and behave accordingly.

Worst case? Suppose she says something offensive at 11PM. Tell her,
without anger, to pack up and leave now, tell your neices and nephews
you love them dearly and this has to do with their mom and you, not
them, and they can call, write, visit whenever they like. 

Sure, it would be unpleasant, but the kids would have had some time
together, and your sister might realize she is not the priceless
family connection she apparently envisions herself. 

Good Luck,   Meigs

    	Even if your sister has very sincerely changed her attitude
    	and is ready to turn over a new leaf, if you do not tell her
    	that she has hurt you in the past, and let her know of your
    	hurt and anger, you may end up surpressing it but not letting
    	go of it.  It is important that she hear what you have gone through,
    	not in an accusatory way, but just state the facts of how you
    	felt.  If you want to renew the relationship, make that very
    	clear, but as others have said, tell her you need time like
    	she has taken time to change her attitudes.  I second the idea
    	of working out as much as possible in advance by mail first
    	and then phone.  I would also put them in a hotel, and offer
    	to meet them over dinner.  I would not take my child to the
    	dinner until the two of you had worked things out.  Why expose
    	the child to possible more rejection.  Good luck.
    		Linda

    Wow, this one hit home.  Let's see if I can reply without getting
    too involved in my own feelings/pain.  My sister and I did
    not have what you'd call a close relationship.  However, after a
    couple of years apart, i attempted to re-establish a relationship
    with her.  She called on me, (and my boyfriend) when she'd need
    something.  And like the 'family hero', I'd always come through,
    regardless of the impact it had on me.  I felt a need to do the
    "right" thing, the "thing" that would look good in mine & my family's
    eye's.  Regardless of what she did next.  And in my eyes, she shafted
    me in repayment many (if not most) times.  You see, she moved to
    a location close to me,  and I was the only member of the family
    she could call on,  and what are family's for, anyway?  So I continued
    to do what people thought I should do, to help my 'poor, poor sister,
    who's really trying to patch things up" untill the affect on me
    was too great, and almost succeeded in breaking my boyfriend & i
    up. Finally, after risking my job here at dec, to help her with
    an 'emergency', which turned out to not be an emergency imediately
    afterwards when she found something 'better' to do, I finally deceided
    that I'd had enough,  and regardless of what her problem or need
    or desire to "patch things up" was, I would have no part of it.
     I needed to protect myself, and since i couldn't deal with her
    without feeling used & abused, I was better off not dealing with
    her at all.
    
    After a few years with minimal interaction (both of us being civil
    at family gathering type of things,) my sister again moved close
    to me.  At this time, I chose to try & re-establish contact with
    her,  mainly because I felt it'd be good for her kids.  Slowly,
    over the course of 2 years, we've built a good relationship.  I
    say built, not re-built, because she still denies alot of what i
    experienced during our early years.  
    
    My advise to you, is to do whatever it takes to protect yourself
    & your daughter, in that order, since you must be "in a safe & strong
    position" in order to protect & guide her.  Forget about what is
    the 'socially correct' thing to do,  and what your family will say,
    do what YOU know needs to be done.
    
    Secondly,  don't count on you & your sister EVER agreeing to what
    happened in the past.  Like my sister, she may deny it ever happened,
    and so why should she apologize.  Don't try to prove what did or
    didn't happen, each of us have our own version of reality.  So,
    don't wait for an apology to try to establish a better relationship,
    she might feel one's not due to you. But don't let yourself be rushed
    into one, either.
    
    And third, understand that if the two of you DO work it out, this
    may affect your relationship with other people.  This definitely
    happened to me, and hit me pretty hard that some people I cared
    for & trusted couldn't be happy with me that I'd been able to finally
    establish a reasonable relationship with my sister.
                                                       
    
    
    
    Reading over what I wrote, I see that by leaving out the details
    of our old relationship out,  most of the impact is lost.   But
    believe me, it was an extremely painfull experience,  more so when
    I was trying to work things out with her, and getting royally shafted
    in return (sorry, there's no polite way to express it).
    
    Also, I hope this doesn't come across as preaching.  This is my
    experience,  and I feel strongly about trying to help someone else
    avoid the pain I experienced.  But of course, you must choose for
    yourself what does and does not fit.
    
    I hope everything works out,  and that you & your daughter can form
    some good relationship's with your sister's family, with whatever
    means you choose to get there.  
    
    mary
    
    PS,  It feels very good to read the concern you have about your
    daughter's feelings in this matter.  I think you must be a wonderfull
    parent.

    
    You deserve an explanation.  I think you can ask for one without
    ruining the chances for working things out.  Maybe you could call
    her and just tell her that you're very confused about what has
    changed...can she help you out?
    
    It doesn't sound like she is looking for forgiveness; could it be
    that she feel she has now forgiven you?  Have you done something
    (like geting married) that makes you "acceptable" to her now?
    
    I'm not sure I would want to subject myself and my child to that
    kind of possible rejection again, under my own roof...at least without
    some gesture on her part that there will be a two-way effort.
    

    After reading .0's reply in .12, I have an idea that your sister
    might simply be using you (your house) as a cheap sleep on her way
    through.
    
    I disagree with the motel idea.  Who's going to pay for it?  If
    this were my "sister", I would not want to pay for it (nor would
    I, no matter how rich I was).  And my guess is that "sis" won't
    want to either, since she's requested your house for cheap accomodations.
    
    What I would do:  Make up something about being out of town.
    Maybe you don't want to do that, and you really do want to see her,
    so suggest something less committing, if you can think of a way.
    But in .12 you told us about how she was still treating you and
    your child like the scum of the earth only *two* years ago, and
    this has been going on for over ten or fifteen years.

    Okay what happen????  Did you see you sister did you talk to her???
    
    Did she changed????  I'm interested to know...maybe there is hope
    for me!!!!
    
    
    bs
    

    A message from the author of .0:

    -------------------------------
  Thanks again for all the helpful comments about the situation with my sister.

  Well, the time came when she called to let me know that she'd be traveling 
  near my city the following week, and I told her that it wasn't going to work 
  out for us to see her (and her family) this time around.  It was only 
  supposed to be for a single day, and I told her that it was a busy week for 
  my group at work (which was quite true) and pointed out that it wouldn't 
  be fair to expect my child to host in a situation where the people have
  never met before (relatives or not.)

  I got the definite feeling that my sister felt that I was ungrateful for
  her efforts to forgive me for having disgraced the family (and that she
  had probably been overgenerous to have even tried to allow me back into
  her good graces.)  In other words, she sounded as if she felt that she
  was very much in control of the situation and that she might now be
  compelled to reconsider her act of generosity in trying to forgive me.

  Needless to say, it would have been impossible to have accepted that sort
  of attitude from her in my own house, so I was glad that I cancelled her
  visit.  If I lost her again as a sister, it will hurt a lot less this
  time around.

  I did suggest that we get together after she moves out here, but before
  that happens, I plan to be honest with her about how I feel (and about
  the kind of respect I expect her family to give to my child.)  If that
  doesn't suit her, it's just too bad.  My child's feelings have to come
  first for me.  No question about it.

  Thanks again for all your help!

    I applaud you.  I feel you were totally right to refuse her.
    I just hope that someday your sister realizes how atrocious
    her behavior has been and apologizes to you.  Life is so short
    and family is so important.
    
    - Kathryn
    

    Three cheers for holding your ground!
    
    It has always amazed me how we 'feel' that we should take abuse
    from family members, stuff that we would NEVER tolerate in our
    friendships, just because these people are *family* (whatever that
    really means).
    

    re.23
     
     Actually, I find that I EXPECT my family to *understand* me more
    because they ARE family. I'm sure that I am more tolerant of my
    friends, because I don't EXPECT them to understand me the way my
    (immediate) family does. 
     
     
    Robin (who is occasionally reminded by family that she "gives" more
           latitude to friends expressing themselves than she allows
           from family with similar points of view!)