Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    Jim,
    You may have noticed that there are _25_ tee shirt logos to choose
    from. Not all of them have the word "goddess" or a labrys on them.
    We will find out how many people want either of those symbols on
    their tee shirts when the final tally is taken. By the way, your
    opinion counts too. So if you want to express it, please feel free
    to send your favorite choice to me.
    
    Liz Augustine

True, not all of them do.  I am glad of that...

I don't feel that my opinion counts, but I did feel like pointing .0 out.

I don't feel that my opinion counts because as a male, even as a WOMANNOTES
male, I don't feel that any of the logos are something that I could wear; the
logos are all for "woman" noters. I feel left out, but maybe that's all right.

Perhaps there are corollaries of the logos which might include male WOMANNOTERS,
and I think that that would be a good thing to have, rather then to have women
noters wear logos that include men.

These are things which I think the voting can decide; they are not something
that I feel I should or need to complain about.

Jim.

    re .0 so vote twice - once on the design, and once with your $$
    
    I plan to buy one, Goddess symbol or no, whatever the slogan,
    because friendship is more powerful than differences of opinion.

    dana

    re: .2
    
    well, i guess you could have suggested a logo that you could wear.
    
    jenny

    Yah - who wants an ol' Goddess symbol on a tee-shirt,
    anyway. . .?
    
    
    
    *I* want it on the satin "tour" jackets when we get around to
    those!   :-D (times about a dozen)
    
    Steve
    

    I like the idea of the labrys better than the goddess remarks. 
    Whatever people decide is fine, and neither goes against my grain.
    
    -Jody
    

    Just looked up the definition of "labrys".  Webster's Unabridged
    defines it as "An ancient Creten sacred double ass".
    
    Would someone like to explain how that definition applies here?
                                                      
    

    er....isn't that supposed to be "double *axe*"???
    
    --DE
    

    RE: .10...
    
    If it's a typo...it's Webster's.  The definition reads "ass", as
    in a donkey.
                                                          

    It is a typo. The labrys comes from Minoan culture in Crete. It is a
    double-headed axe that looks rather like it was designed to be
    represented in ascii. :-) The Minoans used the labrys as an emblem.
    They also had lots of nasty, sharp real axes that they used for
    religious (sacrificing bulls) and secular purposes. 
    
    	Jon

    OK...so ASCII aside, how does the labrys apply here?
    

RE: Note 25.2

I agree wth your comments that it's okay for the t-shirt to be one that some
members of this conferences wouldn't want to wear, and that the vote will
settle it.  But note that (at least) the following suggestions don't say
anything at all about gender, including references embedded in the conference
name:

             all the voices are needed in the chorus
    Too much of a good thing can be wonderful - Mae West
    The function of freedom is to free somebody else - Toni Morrison
    digital's network connects more than just _computers_!

And the last one, in particular, would make a pretty good company t-shirt,
or maybe even an ad campaign!  (If it hasn't already!  I vaguely remember
"Computers are for kids" back with EDUsystem 8s & 11s.  But I digress...)

Yes, some of them are quite good, but out of two dozen? there are four you
mention.  Right now, "The function of freedom is to free somebody else - Toni
Morrison" sounds pretty good to me...

JMB 

    re .13, and others
    
    I too would like to know the significance of a "labrys".
    
    Ali

    for information about the labrys/labris see my intro note.
    
    _peggy
    
    		(-)
    		 |
    			Symbol of the Goddess from ancient Crete.
    
    

    [moved by moderator. this note is in re. 5.12]

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CTCADM::TURAJ                                         7 lines  13-JUL-1988 10:14
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    Please explain why the tee shirt slogan Woman of Note is insulting
    to men. I don't understand. 
    
    Thanks.                     
    
    Jenny

    [also moved by moderator]
    
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SWSNOD::DALY "Serendipity 'R' us"                    10 lines  13-JUL-1988 10:19
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    RE:  T-shirt
    
    Could it be that you feel that every T-shirt theme should be "about
    you"?  Isn't that a bit self centered?  The T-shirt is "about women"
    because this conference is "about women" topics.  I don't see where
    your problem comes from. 
    
    Marion
    

    Since this is called rhetorical question, something to think about,
    does it seem to anyone besides me that subjects of interest to women
    are being sidetracked by men again?  It also occurs to me that we
    voted after a long suggestion and discussion process that allowed
    time and space for this discussion.  I happen to think Woman of
    Note is a terrific slogan, can't really see where it's insulting
    to anyone (no matter how I try to look at it) and think that this 
    broohaha is counterproductive.
    
    Dondi 

    
    I was really surprised by Eagle's 5.12 note.  In fact, I'm still
    kind of stunned, but since I've been active in organizing this 
    tee shirt thing, I guess I should respond.
    
    This process was open to everyone with access to this file.  
    Anyone could suggest a topic, and anyone could "vote" for
    his or her favorite topic.  Men and women voiced their opinions,
    and Slogan #2, Woman of Note, won.  I feel good about the process
    we used, and I think it was fair.  
          
    I also think that to characterize the phrase "woman of note" as
    insulting to men is rather telling in and of itself.  The phrase
    is not about men.  It is an affirmation of women.  Affirming women
    is, I think, one of the goals of this file, and my sense is that men 
    who participate in this file share that goal.  I'd be lying
    if I said that I lie awake at night wondering what the men in this
    file will look like in the Womannotes tee shirts, but I've been
    feeling that many men here have decided to wear the shirts in
    solidarity with the women in this file (kind of like JFK's famous
    "Ich bin Berliner" - i hope i spelled that right -).  
    
    I've been really excited about the prospect of having a Womannotes
    tee shirt.  I hope others still feel the same.
    
    Justine   
                                                      

    I'll take two - one for me, and one for my hubby.
    
    Marion

I think it would be appropriate to have 2 t-shirts -- Woman of note,
    since it was voted in, and something like "Friend of Womannotes"
    for those among us who would rather not identify themselves as women!
    
    I don't think we need to change the voted-upon slogan be be inclusive,
    but I do think we need to have a choice.
    
    Holly
                         
    

    
    It occurs to me that many of us wear t-shirts with the logo New York
    Mets when, in fact, we neither live in New York nor have any official
    connection with the New York Metropolitan Baseball Club (other than
    watching them on television). Is this significantly different from
    wearing a t-shirt that says 'Woman of Note'?
    
    I'll take two as well...
    
 

RE: .22

"I also think that to characterize the phrase "woman of note" as insulting to
men is rather telling in and of itself.  The phrase is not about men.  It is an
affirmation of women.  Affirming women is, I think, one of the goals of this
file, and my sense is that men who participate in this file share that goal."

I don't consider "woman of note" to be insulting to men.  I don't think that a
male should wear such a thing, because he truthfully is not a woman.  Pardon me
if I refuse to bend the truth.   I would have liked to see a slogan that
included men, but I feel like my right or priveledge to object has been taken
away.  I feel disenfranchised.  I feel that it should have been possible to
"affirm women" without men wearing a false label.

Perhaps someone could translate "Ich bin Berliner" for me...

In view of the fact that "woman of note" has been choosen, I would like to see a
corallary to "woman of note" which a man who chooses to "affirm women" can in
honesty wear.

RE: .25

"Anyone who didn't participate in that process by suggestion, argument and vote
but who now cries "foul!" and wants things to be different should go off in a
corner and run a motivation check on themselves!"

What about those that did participate?  It is just possible to be deeply
involved in the democratic process and still end up being disenfranchised, and
be disappointed about it.

"I think it likely that Holly is correct in arguing that karmic issues ("be kind
to dumb animals" and all that ;') should result in some sort of second flavor of
shirt since the community has made such a strong, vibrantly pro-women choice of
motto."

Are you implying that men who would rather wear an honest label are dumb
animals????

"Not every man would have the strength of character to wear The Real Shirt and
it would be cruel to expect it of the less self-confident..."

Are you implying that men who would rather wear an honest label have a low
strength of character, or are less self-confident? 

I formally object to your note, find it insulting and harrassing, and request
that it be set hidden or deleted. 

JMB. 

    
    
    
    Correction:   Ich bin ein Berliner   -  I am a Berliner.  These
    words were uttered by then president John F. Kennedy when he visited
    the city of Berlin.  Please note that he was not from Berlin.  But
    he did feel a sense of solidarity with the people whose city he
    was visiting.  Somehow I saw a parallel.
    
    As a member of the Tee shirt committee, I am willing to continue
    the process of producing tee shirts bearing the winning slogan.
    I am also willing to make information available to anyone who wishes
    to form his or her own committee to produce other tee shirts.
    Please contact me directly if you would like information about vendors,
    price, etc.
    
    Justine                
    

    I can see (nota bene: seeing doesn't necessarily mean agreeing)
    Steve's and Jim's point. Some/many/most men would not want to
    wear a t-shirt that said, essentially, "I am a woman".
    
    Think of the ramifications. How many of you women would want to
    wear a t-shirt that said "Man of note" or some other phrase that
    basically reduced to saying "I am a man"?  In fact, consider the
    flack about male pronouns being used as gender-neutral pronouns,
    and how women feel that this is exclusionary.
    
    But then, the wonderful part about this analogy is that now the
    shoe is on the other foot. Men now have the "opportunity" to see
    what it's like to be referred to as being of the other sex.
    
    Fascinating.
    
    I do agree that the process of selecting a slogan was run fair and
    square, and thus the men have no reason to squawk. True, one can
    still be a part of the voting process and end up being disenfran-
    chised anyway, but that is the price one pays for democracy.
    
    Also, no one is forcing anyone else into wearing the t-shirt. I
    am sure that if anyone wants to come up with his (or her) own
    Womannotes t-shirt, he (or she) can go right ahead and do so.
    
    --- jerry

    I would point out, btw, that being on the losing side of a democratic
    vote does NOT mean that one has been "disenfranchised".  That term
    refers to having the right to vote taken away, something that certainly
    didn't happen in this case.
    						=maggie

    In response to a protest by a member of our community, .25 has been
    hidden.
    
    						=maggie

    I think, if a "Man of Note" T-shirt were to be created (for whatever
    hypothetical reason), I might want one if I felt a strong part of
    whatever community created it....
    
    even if I didn't wear it in public too often - it would serve fair
    duty as a nightshirt, or work-out shirt.
    
    -Jody
    

    Correction to the correction.......
    
    "Ich bin Berliner" is the correct phrase in German for "I'm from
    Berlin".....
    
    THe phrase JFK used in his speech was incorrect, yet the tremendous
    effect it had upon the Berliners of time was not hindered...basically
    he assured them that he "was one them," and thereby the city of Berlin
    would be under America's protection despite being a remote island of
    democracy in a sea of Soviet control.....
    
    How about using "Ich bin Womannoter" :-) ....

    	Well, I was willing to let the others decide what they wanted
    as a slogan - Personally, had I felt strongly enough about it, I
    would have voted for "All the voices are needed in the chorus..."
    but I decided to let the vote fall as it may.
    
    	I don't feel actively excluded from this conference, and I think
    I am quite careful about trying not to impose my "male views" on
    anyone here.  At the same time, I'm not quite sure that I am indeed,
    a member of the community.  It's this ambiguity that leads me towards
    being read-mostly and not the first to jump on the party lists.
    
    	I've decided not to get a T-shirt - mostly because of the slogan
    chosen (although a decision to print them all on lavender would have
    knocked out any slogan ;-) ).  I agree with Jody - I'd get one
    regardless of the slogan if I felt like a member of the community.  I
    don't feel comfortable enough with my status here to wear "Women of
    Note", and I own more than enough "knock-around & sleeping" T-shirts
    already...
    
    						--Doug

    
    Being the capitalist that I am, I will show my support for the saying
    "a woman of note" by canceling my order for two T's and submitting
    an order for FOUR.
    
    It seems that we have a bunch-o-guys that have an objection to a
    perceived pressure to become "one of the GIRLS".  Talk about the
    shoe being on the other foot!!!!   I LOVE IT!!!!
    
    Marion
    
    PS - Say guys, c'mon.  You _must_ be able to see a little of the
         irony.  I'm old enough to remember a time in Data Processing
         when a woman could only be one of two things: a secretary,
         or "one of the boys".

	Good Grief!  This whole controversy has been tough for me for a
	number of reasons.  First of all, it's hard for me to understand
	why folks are upset that a file called womannotes would have a
	t-shirt that doesn't say anything about men.  I bring that up not
	to fan the flames, but I want you to understand that the basic
	feeling of disbelief I have around the existence of this controversy 
	probably colors my response to it.
	
	Secondly, this is hard for me because, as I mentioned before,
	the other members of the t-shirt committee and I worked
	really hard to make this an open process.  We allowed lots
	of time for brainstorming and discussion, and we had 2 votes.
	I was interested by the choice of "Woman of Note".  It strikes
	me that over the last year or so, women in this file have really
	started talking not just to men but also to each other.  And in
	so doing.. I've seen more and more women learning to love and 
	respect each other (and most importantly!) themselves as women.

	This doesn't mean that women have stopped loving men.  It means
	to me that by listening to and talking with each other, women
	have grown stronger.  It strikes me that the choice of the
	slogan - chosen by the majority of those expressing a preference -
	"woman of note"  confirms  that women are learning to value
	themselves more.  I think that's such an important development
	that I am willing to take a stand, to defend and honor that choice.
	I'm also willing to bet that there are lots of women and men in
	this file who will stand with me, and I believe that the number of
	orders we receive will confirm that belief.  I would like to ask
	the moderators and all the members of this community to consider
	a moratorium on this topic.  Can we put some limits around it:
	say after 5:00 today, no more processing of this issue?

	Justine
                     

    Further (brief) digression:
    
    from an old issue of Readers Digest (as I recall):
    
    When Kennedy said "Ich bin ein berliner", although they knew what
    he was trying to say, some must have snickered, because a berliner
    was also a type of jelly donut.  "Ich bin berliner" would have been
    the correct phrase, it said.
    
    -Jody
     

Justine and the entire T-shirt committee:

*Thank you* for doing the dirty work. I'm looking forward to placing my
order. I feel even better about the community given the choice of the slogan.
Like I said to Justine when I put in my vote, they were all a little watered
down for me. But I understand that the democratic process will produce
something that folks at ends of the spectrum wouldn't have chosen if left
to their own devices.

To the folks in this discussion:

*Thank you* for raising my awareness. I was only going to get one. But I
realize more and more how incredibly remarkable any positive display about
women is. I'll be stocking up for Xmas with this one. Last year I gave Mom:
'Alaska: Where men are men, and women win the Iterod'. She'll probably get
'Woman of note' this year.

	Mez

    <--(.35)   
    
        
�   How about using "Ich bin Womannoter" :-) ....
  
    
    Nope, still wouldn't work.  Most of us would want 
    
    		"Ich bin Womannoterin".
    
    
    <--(-.2?)
    
    Yah, a "Berliner" in Germany is indeed also a jelly donut, same
    thing that gets called a "Bismarck" back home.  "Bitte 12 St�ck
    Berliner mit Erdbeer"
    
    						=maggie

    re: .41
    
    The Iterod quote reminds me of the other Iterod slogan:  Home of beautiful
    dogs and fast women.
    
    And the tshirt slogan reminds me that when women first started working
    on the city utility crews here, some of them changed the "men working"
    signs by adding "wo" to the front with black electrician's tape.  Maybe
    people of the male persuasion could x out the wo on the tshirt..
     :-) :-)
                                     

    Maybe we need a counterpart to "s/he" - "wo/man"
    
    :-)
    
    --DE
    

I think "Ich bin Womannoterin" or some such would be a fine alternative slogan!

*sigh*  I really do hate to repeat myself, but because people are saying
that 'I' feel something other then what I do feel:

I dislike "Woman of note", not because it 'doesn't mention men', but because it
EXPLICITLY EXCLUDES men.  There is a difference.  "All voices in the chorus"
does not mention men, but would have been acceptable on those grounds because it
does not "explictly exclude" men.  I would have not liked it because it does not
mention women explictly.  In my mind the ideal slogan would have been one which
explictly mentioned women, but did not explictly exclude men. There were such
amoung the slogans; the proof is left as an exercise to the reader. :-)

I would not wear a "Woman of note" because factually speaking I am not a woman.
I do not want to lend myself to double speak, cf 1984, "Freedom is Slavery", et
al.  "Woman of note" does not say 'I am a WOMANNOTES noter', it says 'I am a
woman'.  It is not an issue of my self confidence, or my support of women or my
empathy for women.

Wearing a 'mets' shirt conveys the message that you are a mets fan.  I am
not convinced that me wearing a shirt that says "Woman of note" would convey
that I was a supporter of women in general or WOMANNOTES in particular.

JMB

    Weakling that I am, I will not wear a shirt that declares me
    to be a "woman of note."  (I hear the chorus saying "BFD!")
    
    I would, however, wear "honorary woman of note."

    Is there a possibility of a Model B for the men's auxilliary?
    
    
    	bruce
    

    
    re:.45
    I should think it would be fairly obvious in virtually all cases
    that a man wearing "Woman of Note" was not a woman.  Therefore,
    I should think it equally obvious that a man wearing "Woman of Note"
    must be a 'fan' (a la the Mets t-shirt).
    

    Why don't we go ahead with the "Woman of Note" T's, and let someone
    who is so inclined take up the cursade for the "other T".  I'm sort-a
    sick-o-wait'n.  I WANT MY T !!!
    
    Marion

re: .46

>    I would, however, wear "honorary woman of note."

This isn't the sort of offer I make to just any guy; Bruce, I will take
out may sewing gear and alter your tee if you'll get it.
	Mez

    When a friend of mine pointed out the article in a recent Psychology
    Today about "femaphobia"(a man's fear of turning into a woman) I 
    thought it was amusing.  
    
    This discussion is beginning to suggest that femaphobia is a very 
    real and serious problem for a some men.
    
    Someone suggested that if a man were to wear a tee shirt with the
    slogan Woman of Note on the front it would be an erroneous statement
    that the person is indeed a woman.  Perhaps I have misinterpreted.
    I have a tee shirt that has Malibu on the front.  I don't fear that
    I will turn into Malibu (or Cape Cod or The Bahamas).

    I agree with the Eagle on this somewhat -- though I'd phrase it differently.
    
    I wear "slogan" T-shirts for any number of reasons:
    
    	- Design or slogan appeal, no other significance. 
    		["It's not pretty being easy."]
    
    	- Souvenier of place or event.
    		[Cape Cod, Dallas, DECUS, Acapulco, Mystery Weekends]
    
    	- Membership of group or organization.
    	  	[Walpole Fotlighters, Vanderbilt Band]
    
    	- Support of group or organization.
    		[World Hunger Year]
    
    	I am a reader and contributer to =wn=.  I am not a "Woman of Note."
    I find it interesting that the chosen slogan does not include men, but
    I certainly don't feel oppressed. My decision not to wear one is based
    on the observation that it reflects neither my membership nor my
    support for this conference.  I have little fear of being mistaken for
    a balding, bearded woman!
    
    	My congratulations to the T-shirt committee for a well-researched
    and smoothly run effort.  Most times I've seen people try to pull
    something like this off, it never gets going.  Don't let the dissenters
    get you down - there are always folks who disagree in a democracy.
    
    							--Doug
    

    Re: .47
    
    >Therefore, I should think it equally obvious that a man wearing
    >"Woman of Note" must be a 'fan' (a la the Mets t-shirt).
    
    Obvious to whom?  I'd say a good 80% of the American population
    understands the reference to the Mets.  The difference can be measured
    in orders of magnitude.

    
    re:.53
    good point! Consider, however, that if you see someone wearing
    a shirt the meaning of which is obscure (he's wearing a shirt that
    says "Woman of Note", but he's obviously not a woman...) you are
    far more likely to be curious about the slogan than to think that,
    in fact, your observations are wrong. That is, you are far more 
    likely to inquire, 'what does this slogan mean?' than to think to
    yourself, 'gee, this person with beard, penis, what-have you sure 
    doesn't *look* like a woman'. Here's the good part. If one asks,
    'what does it mean?' (perhaps *especially* of a male), and he says, 'it's 
    this electronic forum where topics of interest to women are discussed 
    and I really love it and have learned so much and am proud to be
    part of the community....' isn't that the kind of positive interaction
    we're striving for?

          

    Re: .54
    
    What I think will happen instead is that the observer will snicker
    and tell his or her buddies about the wierdo wearing the t-shirt.
    I find the idea of a man wanting to wear a "Woman of note" shirt
    to be as strange as the concept of "Honorary woman" that was
    thrown around in V1 of the conference.
    
    The slogan makes perfect sense for women members to wear, and
    accurately reflects the orientation of this conference.
    
    				Steve

    re .55
      How true, How true.

    
    
    I have the feeling that most of us would like to just order the
    t-shirts and get them to wear to the next party.  Is that possible?
    If a male member of this conference wants to have one and have some
    where to wear it where he will not be "snicker" at, he could wear
    it to all the parties.
    
    Personally I think that the whole discussion about it leaving men
    out is rather mot (not a spelling error) for isn't the general 
    inclusive term for all people wo"man", if you get my point.
    
    And think about who it is who would be doing the snickering?  If
    your really care what 12 year olds think about you, than that is
    your problem.  STOP making it ours.
    
    
    _peggy
    
    		(-)
    		 |
    			For most of my life I have been included as
    			one of the "boys" what is wrong with
    			the "boys" being included as one us? Or is it
    			just that being thought to be in any way connected
    			to femaleness makes a males less human?  What
    			does that say about what being born a female
    			means?  Since the Goddess is in all of us, we
    			should be more than happy to express the oneness
    			with males and females every chance we get.
    
    
    

    	Fully believing my words will not be accepted by many readers 
    of =wn= to be of much value since they originate from the mind of 
    a male they are offered as a personal safety valve.
    
    	The somewhat silly arguement concerning males wearing tees with
    the slogan "WOMAN OF NOTE" heat transferred to the front or back
    does point out a major ugliness in =mn=; many women in =wn= are
    just as quick to segregate against males as males were to segregate
    against females prior to the '80s.
    
    	I wonder how many men who are not and have not intentionally
    been MCP's, who marched and fought for sexual equality are beginning
    to think, or have concluded, many women are just as quick to
    discriminate against men as the MCP's are to discriminate against
    women?  
    
    	Many people have written into =mn= how they strongly object
    to masculine nouns being used to qualify both males and females
    (chairMAN, huMANity, 'god' the FATHER, etc.) and now the people
    of =mn= have voted for a t-shirt slogan which qualifies both females
    and males with a female noun.  How is this different?  Or is it
    simply a childish effort to "get back" at all males for the sins
    and ignorance of fewer than all?
    
    	I have been reading =mn= for a fair while.  I often enjoy the
    strong support which is so often to be found here.  But I can't
    take many of the people who respond to the sex battles in =wn= very
    seriously.  Imitation, someone once said, is the sincerest form
    of flattery.  The women and men of =wn= who treat males as less
    than full members of the =wn= file are imitating the stupid, ignorant
    bastards whose actions resulted in women being streotyped as second
    class citizens.  Continued negative treatment of this type only
    'proves' to the ignorant and stupid that they are correct - women
    don't deserve equal treatment.
    
    Douglas

    	RE:  .58
    
    	Douglas, I wonder what the significance is of the fact that
    	you referred to this file as =MN= four times in your note.
    	Having trouble remembering that the file is called WOMANnotes,
    	are we?  :)  :)
    
    	Or was it possibly a childish attempt to get back at the women
    	here for having voted for the slogan they happened to like the
    	best (as individuals) only to find out later that the most
    	popular slogan in a file called Womannotes had the word "woman"
    	in it.  (How shocking, after all.)  :)
    
    	Seriously, if you're going to try to analyze the motives and
    	the internal thoughts of the people of this file, you should
    	try to cut down on the Freudian slips (and stop calling this
    	file =MN= instead of Womannotes.)  Ok?

	While I disagree with some of the conculsions of female revenge
	and male exclusion drawn from the tee slogan I do agree that it would 
	not be comfortable for most men to wear. Right, wrong or indifferent 
	our society allows women more freedom in adopting male roles and 
	clothing than it does the other way around.

	A man wearing woman's clothing or a slogan declaring him a woman would
	be the brunt of many jokes. OK sure, if you're perfect and sure of
	yourself it doesn't matter. Well, I know I'm not so sure of myself that
	I could deal with it the other way around. 

	The women in this file have the right to choose the slogan they want
	even if it doesn't mention men. But to say a man who wouldn't feel right
	wearing it is somehow lacking in his desire to understand and support
	women is silly. liesl

    
    
    What we need it the courage to stand up and identify what we believe
    in.  The only way anything is going to change is by individuals
    having the guts to say "I may not be x, but I like/love x and will
    there by be willing to be identifed as x if need be BUT I will not
    standby and say nothing just to appease those who do not like x."
    
    If you are a man and really believe that women are full humans how
    can you not be willing to wear a tee-shirt that has the word WOMAN
    in it in a non-derogatory way?
    
    _peggy
    
    		(-)
    		 |
    
    			Courage only comes in one color - 
    			    and	not everyone knows it.
                                                  

    
    <ahem> (maybe i need to speak a little more loudly)
    
    <AHEM>
    
    A couple of unrelated things have come up recently for several members
    of the tee shirt committee. Unfortunately, this means that this process
    has been put on hold for a short while. In the mean time, we will be
    discussing the issues that have been brought up here. As a courtesy to
    all of us, we'd appreciate it if this discussion could be put on hold,
    too. 
    
    Thanks
    Liz Augustine 
    

    re .64 and .65
    kind sirs, 
    thank you for your replies. _now_, could we please put a hold on
    this conversation? it would help quite a bit.
    
    with thanks
    liz augustine