Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    I don't think there is any unwritten law about this sort of thing!
    But speaking for myself, I don't want someone interfering in
    my relationship, so in turn I choose to respect that in other
    people's relationships and therefore someone involved with
    someone else has been an automatic "halt" for me.
    
    Fran
    

    I'm just guessing, but I think there is a certain taboo in dealing
    with a man in a relationship with someone whom you already know
    and are close to. I would NEVER date my best friend's boyfriend,
    no matter what presented itself. I also find that if I meet a man
    who's involved, getting him to discuss his SO will give me enough
    of a picture of her so that I think in terms of the hurt she will
    experience. And I back off from the situation.
    
    If the woman is an unknown entity, or an object of the man's hatred,
    there is often a different story.

    DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU !  ~--e--~

    re: .3 - I was just going to say that... Nice people don't go around
    messing up other peoples' lives...if the relationship that is being
    intruded upon is "working" or "temporarily disfunctional" or "has high
    hopes of getting back together soon", then I'd keep out of it.
    However, if it really is truly dead, then you are not intruding, so go
    ahead... 
    
    also, remember that IF you do this thing and IF it progresses to
    some point where everything starts to go to hell in a handbasket
    (as any kind of relationship wreck-tangle (that's like a love triangle,
    only worse) eventually does) - tempers can get uncontrollable and
    people can get really vindictive to the point of wanting to hurt
    each other physically, emotionally, financially, however they can
    - simply to get revenge.  Forewarned is forearmed...

    -Jody
    

    It depends what you mean by unwritten law.  Culturally, women are 
    geared to compete with each other a great deal, especially in the 
    area of physical appearance.  Although "nice women don't do it", 
    there is still a romantic air around the icon of the home-wrecker, 
    and the male-counterpart of her is a lesser god.
    
    I think that if you gain a reputation as one who has broken up
    up a couple by deliberately competing with the woman of the couple,
    even once, you may find your women friends grow somewhat distant,
    for what is to protect them from you should you decide to compete
    with them.  In my observations and experience, men are generally
    castigated less for such behavior, which goes along with devaluing
    the importance of women's choice in the matter.  Or to grossly describe
    it: women lure away, but men repossess.  Furthermore, in many areas
    women are still expected to be passive, and so if "luring" is combined
    with the woman actively pursuing the man, she's a maverick.  As
    any who've invited wild horses into their living room know,
    they tend to break the furniture.  Which can be annoying if it isn't
    paid off yet.

    I assume this question was asked because a woman wishes
    to become involved with a man who is already involved.
    
    My word of advice is remember how you entered your
    relationship.  Some woman could come along and break up
    your relationship with this man.  He may not remain loyal
    to you because, as shown in the past, he did not remain
    loyal to his old girlfriend. 
    
    I would prefer to find a man who is unattached and who will
    not leave me as easily for another woman.
    
    - Lesley
                                                 

    The hypothetical situation is one where the woman notices that a
    man is becoming fond of her and will probably ask her out in the
    near future.  She knows he has an SO but has not met her.  

RE: .6	TOPDOC::FRANK "Lesley"

  > relationship.  Some woman could come along and break up
  > your relationship with this man.  He may not remain loyal
  > to you because, as shown in the past, he did not remain
  > loyal to his old girlfriend. 

	It seems like an implicit assumption that a Relationship
    must last indefinitely if it is to have validity.  This whole
    concept of "loyalty" is based on the assumption that to remain
    loyal is very important ...  Isn't it possible to have a valid
    Relationship which has a beginning and an end?  Maybe being an
    SO ought to be considered a "temporary" condition and valued
    for the joy we shared this week and last week and last month
    with the bitter-sweet knowledge that the Relationship won't
    last "forever".  Failing all else, somebody will grow old first.
    
  > I would prefer to find a man who is unattached and who will
  > not leave me as easily for another woman.

	With all due respect, - Lesley ... people worth having tend
    to have been found by somebody else before we get there.  The
    choice is usually just to seem very available and interesting
    and see if some possible SO chooses to change partners or not.
    If the potential SO person "remains loyal" it is probably just
    proof that the current SO satisfies present needs and desires.

    ~--e--~  Eagles_See_SO_Relationships_Seldom_Last_Forever_...
             ..._While_Marriages_With_Children_Tend_2_Last_Longer

    Joyce, just use the same line I ask all prospective job
    candidates..."is your (manager) aware you're looking?"
    
    If the answer is "yes", then you're off the hook... if
    the (candidate) has lied, not your responsibility.
    
    grins,
    Marge

    re:.8
    
    �It seems like an implicit assumption that a Relationship
    must last indefinitely if it is to have validity.�
    
    Doesn't that depend on how you define "Relationship"? Or what
    you expect from one?
    
    As far as I'm concerned, a "Relationship" (definitely including
    that all-important capital "R") *should* be treated as an
    indefinite one. If two people who become romantically involved
    don't set out with the idea of permanance in mind, then what the
    hell is the *point*? You might as well just call it a Friendship.
    
    That doesn't mean that a Relationship *has* to be permanant, but
    I could not enter into one based on the assumption that it's only
    going to be a limited time thing.
    
    --- jerry

    I dont think I would enter into a relationship if the other person
    thought it was for ever. (We are not talking marriage here).  How
    can you commit to 'for ever' right at the beginning?

    RE.11
    >How can you commit to 'for ever' right at the beginning?
    
    I don't think it is practical at all to do so, howvever if you
    are a stage in your life where you are ready to commit if 
    someone compatable comes into your life then I think that a
    strong element of "hope" enters into it and if both parties
    agree they will work towards making it a permanent commitment.
                      
    Fran
    

    I hope that I never want anything so badly that I'm willing to
    deliberately hurt another person in order to get it.  This goes
    for men I might "want" as well as anything else.
    
    Lorna
    

re: .0

 ?  Is there an unwritten code that we as women, should respect other
 ?  women and in that respect refuse to become involved with a man or
 ?  other woman that is already in a relationship?

    Joyce, you are really asking two questions ... respect for another
    woman ... and respect for an existing relationship.  This other
    woman should deserve consideration as another human being with hopes,
    dreams, feelings and some investment in the existing relationship.    

    Beyond that ... the QUALITY of The Relationship means determining
    if you are taking advantage of a temporary situation or if this
    existing relationship is headed for inevitable disaster anyway.
    If The Relationship is doomed in any case, why shouldn't you allow
    yourself to find good fortune amid the inevitable broken dreams.

    But the final thought is ... cannot women maintain lower-key sorts
    of initial interactions wherein you get to meet and flirt and in
    the case where The Relationship continues ... this lower-key sort
    of interaction becomes a Friendship as mentioned above ???
    
    ~--?--~  Eagles_Wonder_Why_Everyone_Wants_RELATIONSHIPS_Not_Friends_?

    Maybe I am asking a very basic question...
    
             Is all fair in love and war?
    
    I can't possibly make a judgment about another relationship.  I
    can make a judgment about the individual I have established a
    friendship with and determine what his motives are in asking me
    out.
    
    I am wondering if it might make some sense to not even question
    the relationship...it is between those two people and treat the date 
    as a meeting between two friends as Eagle suggests.
    
    And if something else develops than ask Marge's question.
    
    I am trying to think of how I would feel if I were in a relationship
    and I found out my SO had established a friendship with a woman
    and was attracted to her.
    
    I would like to think that I would not 'blame' the new interest.
    
    I would like to think that I am mature enough to understand that
    the interest might be the result of some incompatibility in the
    current relationship.
    
    But I might also feel that if I were given more time, without 
    interference things would resolve.

re: .11

>    I dont think I would enter into a relationship if the other person
>    thought it was for ever. (We are not talking marriage here).  How
>    can you commit to 'for ever' right at the beginning?

	Are you saying you'd enter into and maintain a relationship with 
someone you don't care for at all?  If you have a *Relationship* isn't it
something you would want to grow and continue?  I can't agree with the
sense of temporalness implied.  If you're in something temporary, I can't
call it a *Relationship*.

re: golden rule

	Would you want someone to "steal" your SO?

	I suppose it also depends on how comfortable you are with the
relationship and your SO, if he/she is commited to your relationship
then you have nothing to worry about.  If he/she seems promiscuous there
may be a problem.


						-sjk

    re .15
    
    I am of the train of thought that says if person A of couple A+B
    has/persues an interest in person C, I (as person B) get mad at
    person A.  Person C has not betrayed me, nor have they sought to
    do me harm.
    
    As person C, I am utterly uninterested in starting anything up with
    person A in the first place: person A _has_ someone to love, and
    I am nothing but second fiddle.
    
    So I'd say, yes, all's fair in love and war.
    
    Lee

    Personally, I prefer that anyone I get involved with be out of any
    previous relationship BEFORE I become involved with him.  I always
    wonder if a guy who pursues another woman while in a relationship
    isn't shopping for a replacement before having the courage to deal
    with ending (or fixing) the current relationship.  That's not a
    man that I want to be involved with.  
    
    So, for me it really has nothing to do with the other woman because
    I don't get that far.  It has to do with me and what I want/expect
    for myself.

    Basically, I don't agree that "all's fair in love and war".  (Maybe
    I could say that all's fair in self-defense, and self-defense can
    get quite vicious.)  I do believe that people have a responsibility
    to treat other people well, and treating other people well does
    not include attempting to steal their SO's.
    
    However, I will admit that there are a lot of gray areas.  For example,
    if a friendship develops between a married man and a female co-worker,
    and if she has never even seen the wife, and finds the man attractive,
    and if he begins to pursue a flirtation, it is difficult to remember
    that this man's wife is a real, flesh and blood human being who
    might be hurt by your fun lunches or after work drinks.  It may
    turn out that the man is no longer happy with his wife, and that
    the two co-workers are genuinely attracted to each other.  In that
    case I can understand where the woman in question could say, I'm
    just dealing with my own life.  He asked me out and I find him
    attractive.  It's not my fault that he's not happy with his wife
    any longer.  (I think it's a shame that the wife will be hurt, but
    it's not really personal.)
    
    However, if a woman meets a woman friend's SO, decides after several
    meetings that *she* finds him attractive, too, and might like him
    for herself even tho she knows her friend is deeply in love with
    him but figures "Well, all's fair in love and war", then, calls
    the friend's SO up and invites him to meet her for a drink - well
    - frankly I  would think the woman is slime.  
    
    I guess I figure if somebody else's SO approaches you and you're
    interested then, do what you want, it's not your fault.  But, if
    you decide somebody else's SO is attractive and you take the
    initiative, then you're morally in the wrong.  It's just different
    if you can put a face on the other person.
    
    Lorna
    

    I agree to some extent that "all's fair in love and war." But somehow I
    can't seem to shake the belief that doing good to others doesn't have
    an effect on other's doing good to you.  I've known men and women who
    were extremely loyal to their SOs.  They never cheated on their
    husbands/wives, never knowingly dated anyone who was married. And then
    what? Their SOs gave them the shaft!
    
    To me, by not dating someone who's married because I won't want another
    women to date my husband (if I get married), doesn't make much sense.
    The other woman who may date my hubby probably won't know me from Adam.
    And even if she did know me, I doubt whether my past behavior will
    phase her. So if I have to make  decision  about a married man, the
    golden rule won't play an important role in the process. 
    
    I won't attempt to steal my best friend's beau. But my reason doesn't
    have much to do with the golden rule. 
    
    _karen

    re:.11
    
    �I dont think I would enter into a relationship if the other person
    thought it was for ver. (We are not talking marriage here). How
    can you commit to 'for ever' right at the beginning?�
    
    As I said, it depends on what you mean by "relationship". Like .16,
    I don't consider a relationship a *Relationship* right at the
    beginning. I consider a relationship to be just a friendship until
    their is an understanding (either explicit or implicit) between
    both parties that it's become something more.
    
    --- jerry

    hmmm ... Isn't this topic really about one of the major barriers
    that people erect that prevents REAL TOGETHERNESS ???  If you
    can't form a "meaningful" involvement with another unless that
    other is currently uninvolved with anyone else !!!  So nobody
    wants to take a risk of becoming vulnerable and caring unless
    it comes with a guarantee of ultimate success ???  And we want
    to be sure we are not criticized for trying to become involved
    if it puts at risk someone else's efforts to form attachments ???

    ~--e--~  Eagles_Believe_Risk-Taking_+_Change_Are_Basic_2_Living

    When did "relationship", which is certainly the most general of
    terms, come to mean only a relationship that is or is intended to
    become sexual?  Many kinds of relationships are possible between
    human beings.  A friendship is a relationship.  So is the mother-
    child relationship.  So is the relationship between co-workers.
    
    So -- yes, I have many relationships with men, many of whom are
    married and some of whose spouses are friends.  I go to lunch and
    to after dinner drinks with these friends, the same as I do with
    my women friends.  I have never even considered this remarkable,
    and I've never seen any sign that my friends consider it
    remarkable, either. 
    
    Nor does my friendship with other people threaten my relationship
    with my husband in any way.  
    
    I am a whole person living in a complex world, and a great part of
    the joy of that life and complexity is the number of warm,
    wonderful people who have let me share their lives.  
    
    --bonnie
    
    
    

    
    If someone is involved in a committed relationship with someone
    else it is up to them to deal with that relationship.  I believe
    that a person can care and be committed to more than one person
    (mothers do it all the time).  The problem is when one of the people
    involved does not believe that it is ok and forces problems to appear
    that are not really there.
    
    One of my personal rules is to never become involved with anyone
    who has a woman who is dependent upon them for support.  (I think
    I said that right - this is difficult to get the words to express
    a feeling.)
    
    _peggy
    
    		(-)
    		 |
    			All women are my sisters - even if I have never
    			seen their faces.
    

    re .24
    
    You are quite right! 
    

    re .24
    
    Could one then insure fidelity by being dependent?
    
    I appreciate all the comments and I agree all women are my sisters
    and I would not make a decision that I felt would hurt someone.
    
    But I feel that we are all weak in some way and if someone I cared
    about was involved in a BTN relationship I would allow him to work
    that out within a reasonable time frame. 
    
    I would also try to be objective and determine if this was a pattern
    in the man's life.  If it was, then it would indicate that I might
    be a BTN.                     
    
    In asking this question and others I may pose in the next few weeks
    I am really questioning is anything black and white?  In fact I
    am going to ask that question in a new note.

    re .26
    Would you make a decision that you feel will not hurt someone else
    but it would hurt you?
    
    _karen

    Karen,
    
    To use a hypothetical situation...if I felt a man's interest in
    me was due to some temporary problem in his current relationship
    I would not become involved in his life.  And yes that might hurt
    me especially if I enjoyed his company and if I thought we might
    make a good couple.
    
    But if I thought his current relationship was dead and there was
    no hope of it being brought to life...I would feel that any pain
    felt by the woman in the relationship would not be brought about
    by myself.
    
    As I stated I don't think there is a rule...it is a judgement call
    and my judgement may not be the same as someone elses.

    re.26
    If the current situation the man is involved with is a BTN why
    would it be difficult for him to end such a superficial arrangement?
    These sort of situations don't generally require a long stretch
    of time to be worked out?
    Fran
    

    Re .23, and .? (Karen Wharton), I agree that there's nothing wrong
    with having men as friends (whether they're in a relationship or
    not) but I understood this discussion to be about situations where
    the people *are* romantically and/or sexually attracted and  whether it
    is right to act on that attraction if the person is currently involved 
    with someone else.

    Peggy, when you refer to making it a point to not get involved with
    men who have women who are dependent on them, what do you mean by
    dependent?  Do you consider a woman to be dependent on a man if
    she doesn't want him to have sex with other women?  Because I don't
    see that as dependent.  I see that as a personal choice people make
    about a relationship. 
    
    I guess I pretty much agree with Joyce.  What I would do would depend
    on how I perceived the relationship of the other two people.  (How
    happy are they together anyway?)  I agree that it is up to the two
    people in a relationship to take care of their own relationship
    but I think it is up to me to not trespass on somebody else's
    territory.  Therefore, if somebody who was in a relationship asked
    me out I would feel it was their problem (but it would still depend
    on how well I knew the other woman & her feelings about the man)
    if they cheated or hurt their SO.  I still think it is wrong to
    "go after" somebody who is in a relationship (unless there are
    specific reasons why you think it's justified!)  I think there are
    a lot of gray areas here.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    
    What I mean by "dependent" is difficult to explain.  hummm  It is
    not just finical, but that is a big part of it; it isn't just emotional
    but that is part of it.  Sexual dependency is not part of what I
    mean neither is social status.
    
    I used to say that I would never even consider looking at anyone
    involved with another woman in a serious relationship - end of
    statement but now I have tempered that view just a little.  I have
    a lot of trouble with the concept of "ownership" in a relationship
    - as in you can not sleep with anyone else because you are mine.
    
    _peggy
    		(-)
    		 |
    			Sheding more grey all the time.
    

    SOs cannot be "stolen".   They have brains and can and do make
    decisions.  Contrary to whatever fantasy you may want to believe,
    no one "lures" your lover away.  They walk in that direction.  And
    we women aren't so irresistible that we can trash a good man's resolve
    with one whiff.  We don't "destroy" men or their relationships.
    The idea of the "seductress" or "temptress" being responsible for the
    weakness of married or otherwise involved men disgusts me.
    
    I first thought about this issue when my close friend and I both
    spotted the same great-looking guy at the same time.  She ended
    up dating him, (lucky dawg), but if he'd given me a tumble I would
    have gone for it too.
    
    We discussed it, she half-jokingly, and she was kind of miffed when
    I told her how I felt.
    
    If a guy already involved approached me and I wanted him, his involvement
    wouldn't stand in my way, sorry.  I consider that HIS life and none
    of my business just as I wouldn't expect prying questions on a first
    date.  I would make no attempt to "assess" his relationship with
    his SO or with any other person in his life.  That seems awfully
    presumptuous to me.  I'd assume he had the maturity to deal with the 
    ramifications of his actions.
    
    For the record, I wouldn't cheat on any SO of mine.  But I believe I
    owe nothing to some guy's SO although he owes everything to her.  He'd 
    be cheating.  I wouldn't be.  I'd be single or I wouldn't be in that 
    situation.
              
    And please no whines about, "Would you want a guy who you knew
    cheated on his SO?"  I'd answer "Define want".                     

    It's really a question of who initiates.  I would not initiate but
    if he did and I was interested, I wouldn't deny myself.  It's a
    false sense of pride or egotism or something like that to assume
    that you can "save" his SO from hurt.  You have no control over 
    this wandering man and the hurt he can inflict on his SO.

    
    re:.32
    this is right on target!
    

	I also agree with .32.  I wouldn't date someone involved with
	someone else because I myself want exclusiveness.  I'd tell
	them they have to get out of the other relationship first in
	order to be with me.  It's not that I have to "respect another
	woman's territory".

	...Karen

    
    re .26
    
    Your comment about determining if it was a pattern made me chuckle.
    It reminded me of a conversation I once had with my ex-husband's
    then wife. He married one of the women he had been "seeing"
    during much of our marriage.  One time when I went to pick my daughter
    up, she (the then current wife),  explained to me that if he was
    more than 20 minutes late getting home from work she went out and
    looked for him.  Now there was a woman who knew her man!
    
    By the way, I'm not sure that it did her in good, he's now on wife
    4 (I was 2).
                                
    I would also like to comment that, inspite of the relationship(s)
    with another/others, he had NO interest in ending the marriage and
    fought it tooth and nail when I decided to do so.  Now, I realize
    that not all men who become interested in another woman while involved
    in a relationship are rats, philanderers, etc.  But even even if
    the guy does not make a habit of such behavior, it is not a given
    that he will quickly, or even ever, get out of the current
    relationship.  I believe that that is a very real risk that is taken
    when the choice is made to becoem involved with a man with an existing
    commitment.