Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    Sigh.  I have avoided your starting situation:  My family was and
    is white-collar middle class.  That's what I am now.  I make better
    money than most, but I think about the people making less than me,
    and I have no idea how they do it!
    
    From time to time I look in my almost-empty checkbook and lament.
    Then -- and it takes an effort of will -- I remind myself that I
    *am* saving money.  I am in the SAVE plan and in the stock plan,
    so a whacking great chunk of my income is salted away before I ever
    see it.  And then I work at not seeing that as money to be, oh!
    just a bit, spent when "necessary".
    
    Expenses expand to take the money available.  The more money you
    have, the wider the range of things that will be included in the
    set, "legitimate expenses".  Does writing down how you spent *every
    penny* over a month, and analyzing the result help?  Anyone?
    
    Anger at not being able to buy what I want?  Well, more regret.
    (I would guess that is my middle class background showing.)
    Anger at the shoddy material and sloppy workmanship behind the
    pricetag is more likely for me.  Spend too much to get the second
    rate or do without is not a choice that will put me in a good mood.
    
    Envy at those people in Brookline (and Weston and Newton) with their
    fine big houses and their well-groomed landscaping and their lush
    green lawns?  Da%n right!  I don't even have a lawn that goes edge
    to edge!  (But I have a lawn -- I know that's something, really
    I do.)

    							Ann B.
        
    P.S.  And remember, being able to buy anything you want isn't
    enough; owning a place to put it is.  :-)

    
    	My entire motivation for going to college was "so I wouldnt
    end up having to scrape - like the guy next door - and so I could
    be a *professional* like my father"!
    
    	Well...here I am! Seems I can swing just about anything I want.
    Anything you can get for *money*, anyway. Like my new car, sold
    DEC stock and took a beating on my returns, but I did it. An
    unfathomable amount of money - good thing it was just a number -
    *not* a briefcase full - I might have been able to understand
    something of the *magnitude* of what I was doing!
    
    	Personally, I find the biggest deterrant to saving money is
    the credit concept, which encourages impulsive buying and also makes
    everything more expensive for everyone, in my opinion. Gee, buying
    all those CDs is sure easy at $17.95 a wack if you just whip out
    the card...I've probably listened to each of 'em once so far -
    Yet, despite my findings and feelings, I have two of 'em in my back
    pocket.
    
    	But I'm a pack_rat and I love flea markets! I've got tons of
    stuff waiting for "some day". I probably dont need to own 5 guitars,
    4 would do, right? And that Genrad Impedance bridge that cost me
    only $5, well, I've used it once - to see if it worked. How about all
    that red and cobalt and carnival depression glass I've collected,
    will I ever set a table with it someday? I spose some of my "funny
    money" goes into this sorta thing, but I've never accounted for
    it.
    
    	There *are* some items which are being marketed that exceed
    my scope of want, entering the realm of ridiculousness. I could
    have spent all that I did on my car on a pair of audio amplifiers,
    for example - coulda had the most esoteric ones ever concieved,
    with real marble bases and solid silver wiring - give me a break!
    Other exmples abound (for me at least) *especially* in the real
    estate market. Our children will remember us fondly, I'm sure,
    when they go to buy a place 25 years from now. Hey, we were cool;
    Sorry...
    
    	I recall reading a David Lee Roth quote, about his monetary
    gains from being the lead singer for VanHalen. He said "Yeah - I
    own a pair of swimming trunks. I just happen to like wearing them 
    in Bermuda" I 'spose "where it goes" is as individual as the person
    who has it. Basics like to credit / not to credit may help in saving,
    but other's interests may be so relatively far fetched that what
    they do may not be readily applicable.
    
    	Joe Jas                                     

    Thanks for your note, Lee.
    
    Where _does_ the money go?  Between us, my husband and I make 3
    time what my older brother does, 2 1/2 times what my father does,
    and probably 5 to 6 times what my mother-in-law does...and yet they
    all seem to be better off (i.e., more solvent) than we are.  Granted,
    we have a nice home and we have a child (with expensive child care),
    but it feels like we're losing the battle.
    
    My brother (who would die if he knew his kid sister made more working
    part-time than he makes with overtime) has a wife who doesn't usually
    work for pay (sometimes picks up low-wage part-time jobs), four
    kids (all pre-schoolers).  Yet he has a much nicer home than us
    in a more expensive town with a brand-new addition, with beautiful
    furniture (all paid for), a brand-new van (all paid for), an almost
    new car (all paid for)...how the _heck_ do they do it?
    
    Then I remember that they're on a budget, and if it's not on the
    budget, they don't get it.  On the hand, if we see/think of something
    we want (a new pair of shoes, dinner out, a weekend at the Cape,
    a boat last year), well, heck we buy it.  I know I'm very much like
    my parents, who were middle-class overextended as long as I can
    remember.  
    
    On the other hand, my husbands' family differs greatly.  At one
    extreme is his youngest sister, two years out of college and about
    ready to buy her own home.  His brother (age 32) makes more than 
    me and almost as much as my husband; he's single and rents a very
    inexpensive apartment.  And he's broker than we are!!  I think it 
    has something to do with the very different financial circumstances
    the older kids grew up in (bad, w/father handling money poorly),
    versus the younger kids (okay, w/widowed mother handling money very
    conservatively).
    
    I don't know what the answer is.  I do know what you mean about
    _really_ WANTING things...
    
    Tracy
          
                                                                  

    I come from a family of five kids, which is pretty sizable these
    days.  My father supported the family for several years.  When I
    was in 7th grade or so, he decided to go into business with another
    man.  My mother went back to work to make sure there was a steady
    income.  My father eventually started his own business, which is
    still going.
    
    While I was in high school, there just wasn't a lot of money for
    good stuff.  We weren't really poor, but I felt poor.  Even now,
    one of my pet dreams is to be rich enough so that, if I see something
    I really want in a store, I can buy it - no problems.
    
    Now I'm out on my own with just me to support.  Do I go way-wild
    on the spending?  Some.  I have an apartment to myself - in Nashua,
    that's a major extravagance.  It's also in a very nice complex.
    I think it's worth it - I don't think I would be as happy without
    all those trees around me.  I buy loads of books and puzzle magazines,
    almost without thinking.
    
    On the other hand, I'm something of a minimalist.  I don't need
    a lot of furniture.  I don't need a fancy car.  I don't need tons
    of great clothes.  There's not much that I need and not a whole
    lot that I really want.  I don't go into a lot of stores.  I only
    go if I need something, and then I get something good.  But without
    all that temptation, my opportunities for impulse buying are limited.
    
    My checking account is not as high as I'd like it to be.  I count
    up my assets sometimes - savings account, car, assorted possessions
    that would get a little in resale.  Oh, my DCU savings account.
    All the occasional checks go there (tax refunds, PSNH refund, etc).
    Oh, yeah, I'm investing in the stock plan.  That's actually a good
    chunk of money.  It *really* helps to pack money away before you
    ever see it.  In the first place, you tend to forget about it until
    you need it.  In the second place, you feel a little poorer than
    you really are, so you are probably more careful with money.

    I have many of the feelings Lee expressed in the base note....and
    I have made some decisions, and set some goals with the hopes that
    my attitude about money will change.
    
    First of all I grew up in a home where the father was constantly
    striving to be 'somebody'.  My mother inherited a beautiful home
    in Dedham when I was in first grade and had my parents managed that
    gift well they would have been comfortable the rest of their lives.
    But Dad wanted more, did not recognize his own capabilities and
    failed at every effort he made to be successful.  He ended up a
    mechanic for a car dealership, died an early death leaving very
    little in a legacy for his family either financially or in
    accomplishments. 
    
    Early on I set out to live within my means and the experiences I
    had growing up have made that easy.  For a time I was extremely
    poor and extremely bitter.  I resented everyone and everything.
    
    Now things are better for me....but like Lee all those years of
    scrimping and going without never taught me anything about budgets.
    I spend money like a drunken sailor.  And not even on big stuff
    a lot of what I buy is nonsense.  Every week I enter my deposit
    into the checkbook and deduct the checks that I have already written.
    
    I do have SAVE and the stock plan which is great...I bought some
    land in Maine and I am proud of that.
    
    And then a few months ago I read an article in the Enquirer while
    I was in a grocery line and it suggested a spending diet.  It seems
    like a light bulb went off...and I have been budgeting ever since.
    It isn't easy...the other day I said "Sure I will go to lunch with
    you tomorrow", I cancelled it this morning because it hadn't been
    planned and I find if I go outside my plan once I am on the roller
    coaster again.
    
    I have been doing this for about six weeks and things are getting
    much better.  And I keep remembering my father never being happy
    because whatever he wanted was 'always' beyond his reach.  It 
    helps when I drive through Brookline, Weston and Sudbury.  That
    small 1.2 acre plot three hours from here is what I will have to
    be satisfied with...
    
    A suggestion I have is to do a lot of figuring on what you can afford.
    If you want a home in Brookline or a Volvo or a closet of designer
    clothes spend the time and energy figuring out how you can do it.
    You may find that it is possible if you work two jobs and you may
    decide your 'want' wasn't that important.
    
    Another enjoyment I have is Megabucks.  I spend $4 a week and those
    $4 buys me some great daydreams.
    
    I think this is an important subject and the base note and replies
    give a lot of insight on how we develop attitudes and behaviors
    around financess.
    
    

    
>    I am barely scraping by on the salary I have.  I know families of
>    four, living in the same area, who are doing just fine on 1/2 that
>    salary.  I waste what money I have on ... lord knows what, I can't
>    seem to figure out where it goes.

     Hmmm...same problem here! Money seems to come in one way and out 
     the other! For me, part of the problem is the high cost of living
     in the city - higher rent, insurance, prices, gasoline consumption,
     recreation, etc. If I could change my *whole* lifestyle - I believe
     I would see a difference in my cash flow. 

     It's funny - I have a friend who's exactly same age, some job
     right here at DEC, and she's so economical - it just plain
     amazes me! Her savings are triple mine and she knows exactly
     where her every cent belongs... She gives me plenty of good advice
     and among them is "conspicuous consumption".

     As one friend put it, "If you are still paying for trips you took
     two years ago or clothes that you have since thrown out ... then
     you have a slight problem..."!

     N.
     

Re .0

But why do you resent the comfort of the people in Brookline?  Why do
you think there is always someone waiting in the wings to bail them out?
Even if it were true, why should it make you angry *at them*?  This attitude
easily leads to the silly conclusion that they somehow *owe* some of their
wealth to you.

Why do you think you will never ever have that level of comfort?  That can
be a self-fulfilling prophecy.  There is a book out by a psychologist in
Cambridge, Dr Susan Schmitz (or something like that - begins with an "S")
about the problem of women talking themselves out of success.

What makes one person's problems "more valid" that those of another?  What
is a "valid" problem?  Just as improved medical science has increased our
lifetimes such that we now live long enough to have problems that nobody
ever encountered before, once you acheive a certain level of income so that
your day to day life is ensured (a roof, food, etc), you just have time
for a different level of problem.  (Which tie should I wear with this shirt?
Vacation on the Cape again this year?)

Lee,

    Ouch.  Oh, does this sound familiar. 

    I grew up broke.  We're lower middle class and have been for
    generations. 

    I remember watching the other people with money, the ones who had
    the pretty clothes (and made fun of mine because they weren't in
    style), the boyfriends, the cars, the comfortable houses (when we
    still had an outhouse), the ones whose hardest choice was "which
    college will I go to?" rather than, "I have an A average and it
    looks like I'm barely going to be able to go to the nearest state
    school." 

    The anger!  The blind pointless hate!  The terror of being poor,
    of having it all taken away!  Sometimes I wake up in the middle of
    the night and think that I'm going to find out that everything I
    have, all the things I've worked so hard for, is going to be taken
    away from me as some kind of retribution for HAVING, for WANTING. 

    And I want.  French champagnes.  Long vacations on tropical
    beaches. Vacation homes.  Cruises.  A hot tub.  A deck.  The
    wanting never ends. 

    Trouble is, after years of working hard, I've really made it.  I
    say we're comfortable, but by the world's standards, we're rich.
    And I've had a lot of the things I want.  It isn't everything, but
    it helps. 

    But now I'm one of those people I used to hate.  I've sold out.
    (Or have I?)  I've become a mercenary creep.  Good people don't
    have mushrooms on their steak every week.  Only us vulgar rich
    types.  I ought to be tarred and feathered. 

    I didn't even realize I was feeling most of this until the past
    couple of years, when I decided to leave work for a time and live
    off Neil's income while I learned to write novels.  All this anger
    and hate was buried and only came out in fights with my mother.
    But suddenly I didn't have an income, and I didn't have the cash
    to buy a record or a book whenever I wanted, and I felt like dirt. 

    I started expecting Neil to treat me like dirt.  I tried to become
    the misused wife because I felt like that was all I deserved.
    Thank God he wouldn't go along with it. 

    I realized a lot of my trouble with my family stems from my
    assumption that they dislike me because I make more money in a
    year, after taxes, than the rest of the family put together makes
    in two years. 

    And now that I'm back at work, I find myself spending too much,
    buying whatever I feel like.  I guess if I spend everything, so I
    don't have any extra, that will keep me from being rich and I
    won't have to face the fact that I am one of them.  (Most of the
    time, anyway.) 

    Another problem I have had is that managing money so you have
    enough is a matter of making choices.  Growing up poor, you never
    have choices.  There's only necessity.  I never had the practice
    in realizing that if you spend money on one thing, it's not there
    to spend on something else.  I got used to spending it fast,
    before it went away.  "Savings" is a concept that didn't have a
    whole lot of place in my world view; I had to learn it as a
    grownup, the same way I had to learn to talk to people and make
    friends and all those other things my mother couldn't teach me
    while she was communing with the zucchini. 

    Oops, that was bitter.  And I told myself I wouldn't be bitter in
    this note . . . it must be time to stop. 

--bonnie

    Re .7,
    
    This feels too much like a replay of the misunderstanding in the
    "alienation from other women" note: 
    
        One person says, I have a problem, I have irrational feelings, I
        know they don't make sense, I don't like them, but what can I do
        about them?
        
        Someone else replies, What irrational feelings!  Why do you feel
        like that?  It doesn't make sense.
    
    Please reread .0, and realize that you really aren't disagreeing
    with Lee.
    
    ---------
    
    I've grown up solidly in the middle class, where money has never
    been an issue; I can buy what I want (so long as I don't want too
    much--so I don't); so I really don't have anything to contribute
    (except to second Ann's advice:  money that goes into investments
    before it ever appears in your paycheck doesn't really feel like
    it's yours--the savings can build up despite you).
    
    But I still appreciate the desperate sincerity and eloquence of
    Lee's note, and I really wish that I could help.
    
    	-Neil

    re .9, Neil:  Thanks.
    
    re .7, DFLAT::DICKSON
    
    Neil has got the right idea in .9: I am not saying that these feelings
    of mine are right or wrong.  In .0 I simply tried to express a conflict
    of my own, one that leaves me with a lot of anger and pain.  When
    I started exploring this conflict, this fury I carry with me, someone
    suggested a REASON for why I feel this.  The shock of finding such
    anger and bitterness so deep inside me was pretty tough, but knowing
    there was a cause for those feelings helped immensely.
    
    My interest in discussing this is threefold: 1) help make me think
    and talk about it, forcing me to face something I have buried pretty
    deep; 2) see how others deal with money, if they are free of the
    $$-related confusions I have, if they are also messed up this way;
    and 3) perhaps explore other, similar types of inner conflict, too
    strong and scary to face [example: the adult who was abused as a
    child and is now faced with the reality of being a parent.  How
    can s/he become a parent, when the role of "parent" was taught to
    her/him by an abuser?  Does this mean _s/he_, by becoming a parent,
    is now an abuser?  Of course not.  But I'll bet s/he is scared stiff
    of doing so.  I'll bet the idea of becoming a parent is full of
    horrible feelings that s/he does NOT want to face.].
        
    One final idea to ponder: platitudes regarding what I "should" feel,
    "should" do, challenges to what feelings I "have a right" to feel,
    suggestions that my feelings, desires, inner conflicts are "silly"...
    these all do nothing to help me understand or resolve my problems.
    
    They serve only to make me deny the existence of those problems.
    I have found that when I pretend my problems don't exist, that they
    are "stupid" problems to have, I become immensely depressed [not
    "mopey" - depressed, losing weight to the point where it becomes
    a medical concern, withdrawing from life altogether].
    
    Lee

    
    
    Lee,
    
    I grew up in a lower blue collor family - we may not have been poor,
    my parents did eventually buy a house but I got new clothes at
    Christmas, my birthday and the first week of school - underware,
    socks, sneakers, one sweater, one skirt and maybe PJ's the rest
    of my clothes were hand- downs from my sisters who got them from
    friends, neighbors or relatives.  Both my mother and father worked
    and my grandmother, who lived with us, took care of us kids.  We
    had cheap food for dinner and very little extras.
    
    I got married and had two children and I am now only begining to
    get out of the lower-white(pink)collar income to the middle-bluejean
    income (which is very comfortable to me) and I can not deal with
    money even now.
    
    I understand the anger and dislike that some people have for "them
    that have" I have that anger and I do need to work on it but who
    to I talk to about it - a professional who has never gone to sleep
    hungry?  or a friend who just bought this "really great little"
    condo for vacations that's bigger then the one me and my two kids
    try to share when they are both home.
    
    I like this topic, I hope we get somewhere with it.
    
    _peggy
    
    		(-)
    		 |
    			To have little or no money does not mean
    			you have done anything wrong with you life.
    			It may mean that you care about living and
    			enjoying your life.
    
    

    	Interesting subject!
    
    	In my family, my parents are retired, but I still make less
    	than my Father did 16 years ago (and am generally the least
    	affluent among my parents, brother and sister) -- *yet*, by
   	national and world standards, I would be considered successful
    	*and* comfortable (considering that I rely entirely on one
    	income to support myself and my 17 year old son.)
    
    	In point of fact, I am also the *youngest* in my family (and 
    	the only one who is going through rapid career/educational 
    	development at this time,) so I expect to catch up to the other 
    	members of my immediate clan eventually.  :-)
    
    	As a very young adult, I left an affluent family to start life
    	on my own as a single Mother/college_student (supporting myself
    	and my baby with parttime jobs available to fulltime students.)
    	It was difficult, and there was barely a soul at the time who
    	believed that I could make it through college with so much
    	against me.  I disagreed with everyone and felt that I could
    	finish college in spite of the difficulties (and I did.)
    
    	I'm not jealous of people who are more affluent than I am.
    	I feel very lucky to be doing as well as I am (and I know that
    	there are still great things ahead for me, to which I look
    	forward with great delight.)
    
    	Having never been supported by a husband in my life -- [the
    	ex-husband that I met after college made half what I was making
    	while we were married] -- I feel a great deal of pride in the
    	fact that our entire financial/material security has come
    	entirely from me (and the income from my career.)  I'm proud
    	of it because it is precisely what I set out to do when I
    	started college after my son's first birthday.

    	There are still "things" that I want, but I never let the
    	feelings eat at me.  I have all the patience in the world
    	when it comes to planning big purchases.  I know that I will
    	get whatever_it_is eventually (and I always do,) so I don't
    	worry about it.  When the time comes to buy whatever it happens
    	to be, I enjoy it that much more because of the time it took
    	to get it (and I savor the feeling of satisfying a "want" I've
    	had for a long time.)
    
    	As far as I'm concerned, impulse buying on credit is a letdown.
    	It takes me a great deal of time to decide if I really want
    	something, and I enjoy the anticipation.  When I've bought
    	things suddenly (on credit,) the fun just isn't there for me
    	as much as when I've dreamed about something and planned it
    	for months (or even years, as I sometimes do.)  I guess it's
    	just more fun (for me) to have things to look forward to in
    	the future.  :-)
    
    	Also, I enjoy the *quest* for nice_things_that_improve_our_quality
    	_of_life as much as I enjoy the things themselves.  I like knowing
	that I can set goals and accomplish them.  It's a great feeling.
    
    	That's probably why I don't often resent what other people have. 
    	Who knows whether or not those other people appreciate what
    	they have (or whether or not they felt the same kind of
    	satisfaction that I feel when I've worked especially hard for
    	something that I've gotten or have been able to do.)  There's
    	no way that I can know their feelings for sure, so I don't worry
    	about it.  

    	I just do the best I can (enjoying what I am able to enjoy,)
    	and don't worry about things that are out of my reach.  I still
    	feel lucky that things have gone as well for me as they have,
    	so far, and I look forward to whatever the future holds for
   	me and my son.

    It's great to be talking about these things -- this subject is much
    more taboo than anything about sexuality.
    
    My folks were upper middle class (mom) and lower (just-barely) middle
    class (dad).  Dad's goal in life was making it big, being perceived
    as an important person, accepted among the right people.  He was
    willing to be "house-poor" to live in the 'right' neighborhood.
    
    There were never any savings, and lots of fights about money.  My
    mom just wanted to go through life buying on impulse and being taken
    care of.  I got all the lessons and classes and college was always
    assumed...but I never had any *money*.  I could only get 50 cents
    or a dollar at a time.  If they knew I saved anything, they asked
    me to use it for "something I needed".  So I used to hoard my lunch
    money to have spending money.  It was frustrating for me, although
    probably not in the same sense that people who didn't have the lessons
    and advantages (and plenty of food) were frustrated.
    
    I learned to spend it as fast as I got it.  I couldn't get more
    unless I had none.  I also started using food as an emotional crutch,
    and that is one hell of an expensive habit if it gets out of hand.
    But it was perfect in my family -- spend it on food, get more, spend
    it on food.
    
    I'm 35, and I'm just starting to break these habits.  I put myself
    on a tight budget about 3 months ago because I was always coming
    up short in paying the bills.  I never had enough money, even though
    I was getting raises.  This was partly due to years of low-paying
    jobs in schools and in the 'new-age' community, and partly due to
    my bad (sloppy) habits with money.
    
    I've been wishing I could talk about these things with other people
    because I'd like to know how the people who manage their money happily
    and well and who appear to have plenty of it when needed really
    do it.
    
    Thanks for starting the discussion, Lee.  I hope you get what you
    need.
    
    Holly

    	RE: .13
    
    	Hoarding your lunch money, Holly?  Boy, does *that* sound
    	familiar!
    
    	When I was in High School, I always had plenty of my own money
    	(I used to stick it in a drawer in my bureau, in fact, because
    	I had so little need for it.)  I did a lot of babysitting as
    	a young teenager (and got other kinds of jobs when I turned
    	16.)
    
    	However, when I was 12 years old, I decided to "save up" for
    	a record player for my room.  I saved my lunch money (drank
    	milk for lunch instead) for 4 months and kept it with my
    	babysitting money until I had enough for the record player
    	that I wanted.  (I gave it to my Mother to hold for me.)
    
    	In the meantime, my parents got so excited that I saved that
    	much money (as a 12 year old,) that they jumped the gun and
    	spent my money on a record player that they picked out (adding
    	the last $5 themselves) and brought it home to me.  It wasn't
    	exactly the one I would have picked, and I was a bit disappointed
    	that I didn't have the chance to do the choosing myself for
    	something that I was paying for with my own money, but...  Their 
    	hearts were in the right place, and I did enjoy the surprise.

    	Besides, I figured that they had a stake in it since some of
    	the money came from the $1.10 that I saved per week by having
    	milk only instead of lunch.  ;-)

    Lee, I think by admitting your feelings so openly, and facing them
    so squarely, you've taken a big step towards dealing with money. 

    In some ways this fixation with money is like an addiction or an
    eating disorder.  The problem isn't so much the particular thing I
    do or don't do with the money, it's the fact that the money
    preoccupies so much of my energies, my thoughts, my worries.
    Sometimes it seems that when I'm not aware of thinking about it,
    it takes more energy. 
    
    When I first started having enough money to have a choice of
    spending it (when I went away to graduate school on a stipend of
    $3500 a year and my parents were taking care of Kathy), I found it
    helpful to buy a little notebook and to write down everything I
    bought and how much it cost. 
    
    I didn't try to control what I was spending, just to write it down
    so that when I ran out, I could look back and see where it had
    gone. 
    
    Since it often seemed to just float away, simply being able to
    look and see in writing that I had derived untold pleasure from
    dropping $6 to see an Italian cinema classic, or bought a toy to
    mail to Kathy, or splurged on lunch downtown with a friend, made
    me feel better about my spending patterns.
    
    The other thing it showed me was that I was spending a lot of
    money on things I didn't even care about -- activities that I felt
    pressured into, snacks I didn't really want, and especially
    clothes I didn't care about.  As long as I have a good pair
    of jeans, a pair of shoes I can walk in and still look presentable
    in class or (now that I'm grown up) staff meetings, and a couple
    of sweaters and I'm happy.
    
    So I stopped buying clothes and after-class snacks and spent the
    money on books instead.  I know this doesn't sound like tremendous
    progress, but it was the first time I felt like I was controlling
    money rather than the money controlling me.

    But that hasn't done anything for my basic underlying conflict:
    when I was growing up and watching all those people who had so
    much, I felt like they had their goodies at my expense; now that I
    have money, I feel like I have taken it away from somebody else,
    that if I didn't have so much, somebody else would have more.

    I feel like titling this note with Holly's personal name: The only
    way out is through.  But I won't. 
    
    --bonnie 

    I didn't realize we were poor until I was in college.  All through
    grade school and high school I thought that I wasn't allowed to
    do certain things because it wasn't proper, I never went to movies
    or dances, never attended concerts.  My mother was always concerned
    with (I thought) the proper image and what people would say.  I
    found out when I was in college that there just wasn't any money
    for these things. Things got better when I went to college because
    my two older brothers were in the military and sent money home to
    my folks. Also with them out (on their own) the money at home didn't
    have to be spread so thin.  
    
    I was a freshman in college when I saw my first movie, Picnic, and
    went to my first dance, The Harvest Ball, wearing my cousins wedding
    gown.  I got an allowance of $.50 a week, which let me have one
    cup of coffee a day if I didn't spend it on anything else. 
    
    I always dressed real well for school because I got my hand me downs
    from a wealthy woman in town who always wore the latest fashions
    and she got a new wardrobe every season.  
    
    My family always owned there own their own home and there was always
    a decent car, we raised chickens, turkeys and pigs, always had a
    massive garden and my mother canned anything that would fit into
    a canning jar.  I always had plenty of good quality food.  There
    just wasn't any cash. So I guess were cash poor.  We also lived
    near the ocean so there was plenty of fish, shell fish and lobster.
    I didn't know lobster was a luxury food.
    
    I have worked two jobs off and on since my divorce 19 years ago
    and am currently woeking two.  I am still cash poor, I don't have
    some of the material things I would like and need, but I am very
    rich in other areas, like my children, my family (cousins, aunts,
    uncles etc), my yard where I get to putter around and do some gardening
    and my home.

    I grew up in a middle class family.  Daddy had a white-collar job,
    and made pretty good money.  But he was rather eccentric about money,
    stemming from living through the depression I guess.  Anyway, he
    socked it away as a legacy for his children instead of spending
    it.  We never lacked for the necessities, but there were no luxuries.
    We lived in a tiny little house (1000 sq. feet for 5 people), grew
    a garden every year, didn't *ever* get to buy the "fad" clothes
    so important to teenagers, etc.  Daddy lived his entire life without
    ever taking out a mortgage on a house; if he couldn't pay cash,
    then as far as he was concerned, he couldn't afford it.
    
    All this took its toll on me I guess.  I developed an attitude that
    if you don't enjoy your money, then why on earth work so hard to
    earn it?  I went through the period of spend, spend, spend, went
    the route of the credit cards -- the whole gamut.  Gradually, as
    my career developed, I found I had money enough to do most anything
    I wanted.
    
    Then began Phase II:  I maxed myself out in SAVE and ESP, amounting to
    18% of gross income being saved.  This I earmarked for retirement, and
    considered it untouchable.  Everything else was fair game.  I spent
    exactly what I wanted: owned a nice home, nice clothes and lots of
    them, spent $100-150 a pair for work shoes, bought every kitchen
    gadget ever made, and still paid all my bills. 
    
    But as the years have worn on, I have drastically changed my perception
    of priorities.  I'm 41 years old and married now, and with both our
    incomes and no kids, money is certainly not a problem.  But I found
    that I had turned into a workaholic.  It was wonderful to have the
    money, but there was no time to spend it.  We almost never went out to
    dinner, because one or the other of us was working late or had been on
    the road and just wanted to be home.  We spent so much time in
    airplanes for Digital that the idea of an exotic vacation didn't even
    appeal to us.  Vacation was just an opportunity to stay home for a
    change. I had a maid to clean the house, a gardener to keep the yard --
    but I've been through many of both and never, never found one who would
    keep the house and yard the way I would myself. Having a maid is *not*
    a luxury; I'd much rather have the time to keep the house myself. 
    
    Now my most precious possession is my time.  The money is no longer
    worth the price I have to pay to get it.  Don't get me wrong -- I live
    in a nice house, spend a fortune at the grocery store (food is my
    *life*), buy what I want to support my gardening addiction, etc.  I
    almost never shop for clothes -- yes, I can still afford them, but I
    *can't* (OK, WON'T) afford the time it takes away from my home and
    family life to go buy them.  So I do without instead.
    
    Lee, I don't know how old you are, or whether your perception of money
    will evolve the way mine did.  Also, I'm not sure that the evolution I
    went through is all that desirable:  I had the option of making more
    money, but try as I might I haven't been able to figure out how to make
    more time! 
    
    							Pat

I was there too.

Right after I graduated from college (a very cheap state university, paid
for by my mother going to work), moved away over 700 miles (so no hand
holding),and got my first job and apartment, I was *terrified* of running
out of money.  I carefully analyzed every purchase in the grocery store
to make sure I was getting the most for my money, regardless of quality.

"Purity Supreme" brand soda pop.  Blech - the stuff is colored water.  But
I lived like that for about three years.  My stereo was a Heathkit I built
myself while in college, with home-made speaker cabinets.  I drove a VW
beetle.  My biggest purchase decision was a $300 color TV.  But I never felt
resentment toward anyone better off.

After a few years, my income increased to the point that I could just *barely*
afford a small condo in a very pretty area.  I was so depressed by the
apartment I was living in (leaky ceiling, noisy neighbors, view of the parking
lot) that I went for it. 

Turns out to be the best decision regarding money I ever made.  The tax
deduction helped, and, nine years later, the profit on resale paid the 50% down
payment on the house I live in now, and intend to stay in for a long time. With
a smaller mortgage principal, the monthly payments per-person were LESS than my
wife was paying for rent at the time for a tiny place in a 100 year old house.

Now, 14 years after leaving home, I don't have to count every penny, and we
have decided that we are not going to go for the cheap and uncomfortable when
we can afford the reasonable class.  We sure don't go first class, but we have
developed a real eye for value, and an ever-improving understanding of what
things really make us happy.  Sure, BMW's look neat, and I know they are fun to
drive.  But for the money one of those costs, we can do a lot of stuff that is
more fun to us *and* still have money left over for a car. 

				----------
There are two issues here.  One is the problem of dealing with money in such a
way that you have it when you need it without living like a monk, yet not
becoming adicted to credit cards.  I found that a budget was helpful not so
much in allocating money for the future as for finding out where it is going
*now*.  After you find that out, *then* you can decide how much slack you have
to work with in planning for the future. 

The other issue is the feelings one has toward other people as a result of
one's financial situation.  I suggest that the reasons for feelings of anger
about this do not have anything to do with money per se.  One could just as
likely feel resentment toward people who are happy (when you are sad) or people
who are loved (when you are alone).  There is a mysterious other ingredient at
work here that results in the anger. 

It is the feelings of *anger* that I regard as "silly".  Maybe a better word
would be "non-productive", and in that sense I do consider them "wrong".

But not the feelings of relative poverty, sadness, or loneliness.  These
are entirely reasonable feelings to have in those situations.  Inner conflicts
between upbringing and current problems, indecision about what to do about
it, and so on are not silly, and I did not mean to suggest that they were.
I'm sorry if I gave that impression.

I agree that just pretending that problems do not exist is no help. There are
two kinds of "problem" here, with different means of being dealt with:  1) what
to do about money, and 2) why you feel angry about it. 

Number 1 is easy to talk about.  Everybody will have suggestions. Number 2 is
in some ways more important though, because whatever it is that makes you angry
about money might also make you angry about something else; something else that
might not be so easily dealt with as money. 

    Make two columns, like so:
    
        Needs                                      Wants
        -----                                      -----
    
    List all the things you spend on, rent, clothes, insurance, food,
    wine, stereos, etc... in one of the two columns. Anything you
    can NOT do without, eg rent and food, goes in the need column.
    Anything you can live without goes in the want column. Now,
    make an absolute commitment to paying off the need column. In
    cash, every month. Next, prioritize the want column. (Hmmm. A
    new record, or a night out ?) Again, pay cash whenever possible.
    Savings are deducted from paycheck, stocks if you wish. (You have
    to be willing to wait if you invest in DEC stock, but you can 
    make $$$) 

    Be ruthless with that need column. If you can, start a checking
    account, divide the need column monthly total by four, and
    have that amount deducted weekly. You'll notice that you end
    up with 52/48ths of your monthly expenses deducted after one year.
    Gee. Treat yourself to an item on the want list. A small one.
    
    *THROW AWAY THE PLASTIC!!!* Or keep one card for _emergency_ use
    only. Sears is a good one, you can replace your stove or refrigerator
    in an emergency, likewise get your car fixed. 
    
    My personal economic commandment is : Thou shalt not pay interest.
    That's it. (I cheat when I buy a new car, but I've paid two off
    ahead of schedule.)

    Dana
    
    PS. I'm one of six kids. Dad worked swing shift, and part-time.
    Never had much pocket money, but always a roof and good food.

    re -.1
    
�    It is the feelings of *anger* that I regard as "silly".  Maybe a 
�    better word would be "non-productive", and in that sense I do
�    consider them "wrong".
    
    Hmmm... Personally I like "non-productive" better.  Those feelings
    are useless to me; they serve only to make me unhappy, something
    I'd rather not be.
    
    Preferring not to be angry does not take away the anger, no matter
    how I try.
    
    I think the tack we took that night is best: talk about how rotten
    it was, how unfair it is/was, how angry and resentful I am/was to
    have been one of the unlucky ones (vis � vis $$).  I have spent
    a lifetime (weellll, a short lifetime; I'm only 25) telling myself
    all the reasons not to be angry ("could be worse", "not their fault
    they were born with financial priviledges", "they _do_ have problems
    of their own" etc) -- I am verrrry familiar with all the reasons
    I shouldn't be angry or jealous.  I am _not_ very familiar with
    why I _am_ angry and jealous.
    
    Money is, after all, one of the most taboo subjects in our society.
    It is gauche to wonder what someone's yearly income is.  It is a faux
    pas to mention how much one lovely thing or another cost.  We refer
    to these things in the vaguest of terms, never, ever being specific.
    
    I think simply taking the taboo off the subject has helped me
    enormously.  While $$ is never going to be a casual subject with
    me, one I am comfortable talking about, there is no reason whatsoever
    that I should maintain that taboo with MYSELF, in my own private
    musings.
    
    I have found all the replies to this topic to be interesting, from
    those who have the same background but different reactions to it
    (Dickson), those with the same background and similar reactions,
    those who have no clue what it's like to be dirt poor as a kid...
    they have been interesting, and helpful.
    
    FWIW: The therapist for our group is certainly not poor now, but
    she was extremely poor as a child (inner city poor); She has been
    enormously helpful, with even just a few comments.
        
    Lee

    Lee, this is a fascinating subject, thanks for starting it!

    I don't have the same background you did, but I empathize
    with some of your anger.  My parents were teachers (upper
    middle-class by profession, lower middle-class by income) and
    we seemed to have whatever we needed and some luxuries
    besides.  When I started wanting "teenager" clothes, they
    said they'd buy me clothes they felt I *needed*, I could buy
    anything I *wanted*.  At $.50/week allowance, I couldn't buy
    many of the clothes I wanted.  I took a part-time job, and
    started spending money like crazy. I did manage to save a
    little, though, and had a small reserve to draw on when I
    started college.  It disappeared, *poof*, in about one
    semester.  My parents put me on an allowance, $50/month (my
    scholarship money paid for dorm and tuition), and I learned
    about budgeting.  At first I just found out where I was
    spending it, later I found out, just a little, how to control
    it.  I used to calculate things in terms of pizza:  "If I
    save X on this, I can afford a pizza Saturday."  :) 

    By the time I was a senior, and for a couple years afterward,
    I "lived like a student."  I didn't have many needs or
    possessions; during three years I lived in 11 places, and
    every time I moved in *one* trip, with everything I owned in
    the back seat and trunk of my mid-sized car.

    Now I'm a professional making what seems like it ought to be
    a phenomenal salary.  My SO (who came from an upper-class
    family) makes a decent salary, about 2/3 of mine; we're
    "DINKs" and no "yet" about it!  We each have our own
    allowance for personal things as well as a joint account for
    things we consider necessities (house payment, utilities, 
    groceries).  We recently sat down to find out where our money
    was going, because it was disappearing and we didn't know
    where.  Our tactic was to make the categories that made sense
    for us (a high item on our list of expenses, for example, is
    books) and then write down how much we'd *like* to be able to
    spend, within reason, in each category.  As expected, the
    total rather exceeded our incomes!  Then we cut each category
    to the bone--some "luxuries" went to zero, some, like books,
    just got painfully low.  Fortunately, that total was less
    than our incomes.  Then we started negotiating to bring some
    categories closer to the "like to spend" level without going
    over our total incomes.  Big hassles, big fights, big
    frustrations over differing priorities, but we've got
    something now that we can hopefully live with. 

    When I was a student working part-time, I felt like I had all
    the time in the world and enough money to get by.  Now I
    spend 50-60 hours/week in working and commuting, never have
    the *time* to do all the things I want to do, nor do I have
    as much cash as it seems like I "should" have, given my
    income.  Yet I know within a few dollars where it all goes,
    and I've made those choices; but I *want* nice furniture for
    the living room, I *want* a home computer, I *really want*
    bright exotic new clothes; I don't *want* (in the same way)
    to pay for house and utilities and grass seed and savings,
    yet I like the security, too.  It may be irrational, but it
    makes me mad, and I don't even know who to be mad at! 

    -- Linda

re: .0
A mans' perspective ... intelligent ... but nevertheless a man whose
lived "through it", also. (might as well be humble, eh ?)
    
>    The role of money and class in our childhood, when we first "left
>    home", and after we have matured.  
My perspective on growing up was that there were "rich people" in another
section of town; poor people in parts of our town (but only a few). In my
grammar school there was only 1 poor kid in my class.
    
    
>    the quarter won't pay a single one of those bills, what do you do 
>    with it?  You buy yourself a treat, a candy bar."

The philosophy I adopted was: spend 10% of a windfall, bank the rest, pay what
you can with what you have.
    
>    class living standards, but no money to pay for them.  We ate in
>    dining halls, never owned the house we lived in, sometimes were
>    on welfare, sewed our own clothes, curtains, upholstery, etc, etc.

Food, clothing, shelter was never a problem for us. 

>    Nota bene: the standards in which I was raised said that these kids
>    were rich.  Most of them would simply call themselves "middle class",
>    "upper middle class", or "comfortable".  Looked rich to me.

Funny, when I went to Korea in 1962, our houseboy thought all Americans
were rich. Rich, not in money, but  by living where an individual with drive,
purpose, and zeal could become rich in material wealth and in wisdom from
public libraries and public (free) schools. My houseboys' opinion was to
have an effect on my outlook of life, and in the definition of "poor".
    
>    When I started working at 16, I started having a little money. 

    I guess I was luckier than some. I started working at 5 by doing odd
jobs; later  delivering groceries. The "OPPORTUNITY" to work was there.
The "OPPORTUNITY" to acquire wealth was there.
    
    
>    I am now making a normal person's salary, and have a lot of hopes
>    for having a comfortable life.

I'm not sure what a normal persons salary is. Sometimes I feel I just
don't have enough; yet I live better than many making much more than
I do. I think the concept of "marginal good" is the "Economists" definition
for my "affluent position".

There's a joke in engineering that goes like this: We've done so much
with so little for so long; we are now able to do everything  with
nothing, immediately".

Living standards can be equated  to the same principle. If only the very
best is the least acceptable; then very quickly the more richer become
the poorer. 
    
    Trouble is - often times people equate cost with quality;
and such is not necessarily the case: Case in point - Brittania Trousers.
Expensive, but inferior in quality to many others costing less.

    
>    I am barely scraping by on the salary I have.  I know families of
>    four, living in the same area, who are doing just fine on 1/2 that
>    salary.  I waste what money I have on ... lord knows what, I can't
>    seem to figure out where it goes.

The problem is: Bookkeeping! Keeping track of every cent that gets spent.
Several years ago I found myself in the unglamorous position of being
deep in debt,and no "logical" way out. Part of the recovery process
(administered by professionals) was to keep track of every cent spent
over the course of a month. Eventually, a habit I would keep for the rest
of my life (until now anyway).
    
>    I have a terror, mortal terror, of ever being poor again.

As long as you can equate "satisfied with what I have" instead of 
"wanting more than I can ever buy"; the fear may never be realized. I've 
been fortunate to learn (through friends) that the lack of money DOES NOT
necessarily equate to "poor". I think "poor" is to "lack of money"
as "crippled" is to "handicap". They are states of mind, rather than states
of being.
    
>    _cleaning_ladies_!!).  I resent their comfort.  I resent knowing
>    I will never have that comfort, never, ever.

I hope someday I can be as fortunate to be an employer; to be able
to provide someone else the luxury of being employed; even if they are
only "domestics". There comes a time in peoples lives where they just cannot 
do "everything" themselves. I do not envy those with money, because the
fact I don't have a lot is a question of choice, rather than chance. I prefer
the pursuit of life to the pursuit of "money"; therein lays the difference,
I think.
    
>    I know "money isn't everything".  I have known some of the people
>    who live in those houses, and I know they have very serious problems.

Right! Money isn't EVERYthing. But it sure beats the heck out of being
poor. I'd much rather have the problem of being rich, than being poor
(whatever "rich" or "poor" are defined as).

>    For some stupid reason, I feel like the problems of a poor person
>    are _more_valid_ than those of a rich person.  I mentally sneer
>    at the phrase "comfortable", and translate it as "rich".

To me, "poor" is being UNABLE to have a desired minimal living standard.
"Rich" is being able to select whatever living standard I choose.
(In its most simplistic terms, on the fly, off the top of my head)
    
>    But _I_ am comfortable!  Not rich, by no means, but "comfortable"


    Comfortable, for many, is richer than those who are not, and ...
     cannot be "comfortable".
    
>    So how do I bring this conflict, full of enormous bitterness, out?
>    How do I learn how to handle money, make my life nice, with no bill
>    collectors calling me, ever?  I see people using budgets, but even
>    when I live within a budget, I do not see any way to save money.

The term (as I recall it) "Inferior Good" doesn't mean inferior at
all; but rather a  lower  standard than the more expensive options,
such as on food (pasta vs steaks); clothing (K-mart vs CWT);
housing (room vs apartment); vacations (Bermuda vs down Maine inns);
automobiles (Mercedes vs Volkswagen); etc.
    
>    Do I change my desires?  Do I stop wanting a nice house in the city?
>    Do I stop preferring silk to rayon, wool or cotton to polyester?
>    Do I stop preferring Porterhouse to Chuck?  I love endives, can
>    I still eat them?  What about wine?  I _like_ good, French reds,
>    and they cost money; how often can I have some good wine?  I liked
>    these things when I was poor, but I only saw them in stores, just
>    often enough to WANT them.  How do I learn not to want?

According to an article in "Bostonian" (which I kept); good "Reds" wines can
be bought for about $3.00 bottle. 

The issue is not "What to give up" but rather "What is good enough" (so
that I can meet my goal of .....). The goal is something so strong, 
that you can be willing to "sacrifice" something else to get it.

    
>    I am no longer poor.  I still have the desires and spending habits
>    of a poor person, and they are helping make my life pretty angry.

No, you're not poor. You've got lots of friends and admirers for your
spunk and enthusiasm; and some modicum of respect for being willing to take
some risks to get the information you need (which in turn benefits others).

Thanks for the base note.

Bob