Conference turris::womannotes-v1

	I can't honestly say what I feel about someone's weight.  The
	only criteria I've ever had was that I wouldn't date a smoker.
	I think that potential date was being really superficial to
	ask about weight before even meeting.  A first date doesn't
	mean having intimate relationships with someone where their
	looks or body might be off-putting.  I hope you understand
	what I'm trying to say.  Where I might (though I hope not) be
	unable to have an intimate relationship with someone because of
	their looks, I would *never* refuse a date with someone for
	those reasons (although I'll refuse for other reasons).

	...Karen

    
     I know what you mean, I did "meet" a few potential dates via mail
    and the phone and got along great, with one of them even going as
    far as saying she never felt as comfortable talking to anyone in
    her life. I told all of them up front that I also have a weight
    problem, in that I can't gain weight and only weigh around 115
    pounds. That might not sound off, but the key is I'm almost 6
    feet tall. Well, anyways upon meeting things took a turn for the
    worse in every case. In all cases, some were really very insulting
    and hurtful. I guess my weight being that far out of the norm
    is more than some can handle. The common reply was something on
    the order of "how can I date a MAN that weighs less than I do?".
    Yes, there are people out there that can only see the "Body" and
    not the person inside. It's their loss, I can't waste my time on
    people who can't see another person, only images of the shell of
    the person.
    
    G_B

    I read an interesting article in "Mademoiselle" about wanting to
    be "beautiful".  And they flat out asked "Why does ANYONE want to
    be beautiful?"  Most beautiful men/women are thought to be ignornat,
    dumb, or self-centered.  (Whether it's true or not isn't the
    point...It's how others perceive them).
    
    It recommended that everyone should strive to be ATTRACTIVE...
    
    Attractiveness isn't superficial.  It means being friendly, honest,
    open to friends and strangers, have high self-esteem.  A tidy, cleanly
    appearance was stated as a plus, but "being one of the beautiful
    people" isn't intended.
    
    So strive for inner ATTRACTIVENESS, not always outer beauty.

    
    	Blind dates can be pretty exciting and most guy's probably do
    a good amount of fantasizing when they *know* they're going to be
    introduced to someone soon. You almost have to expect, given the
    way_things_are, that one's first fantasies will be visual. You 
    assumed that his asking about weight meant he *must* be thinking
    in judgemental terms, a "go/nogo criteria" of sorts, based on the 
    information obtained. It is possible, that he wanted to know this
    so he could simply visualise what you look like, before actually 
    meeting you. His actual preferances are indeterminate from the 
    information you presented.
    
    	Joe Jas

    	A person's weight makes no difference to me personally.  I think
    	that if you love or like someone, they are going to be attractive
    	to you, no matter what their outer appearance is.  However if
    	such things are important to someone, it is better to find out
    	about it in advance.  It may still feel like rejection, but
    	if your own self image is good, you should be able to consider
    	it their problem.  Another reason for this attitude is that
    	the person may be insecure about themselves, and worry about
    	how the person they are with makes them look.  I think that
    	is more prevalent in younger (like high school age) people,
    	but some adults may also feel this way, especially if their
    	own self-worth is largely derived from their appearance.
    		Linda

    I have dated very underweight men, and slightly overweight men.
    I have friends on both sides of the tracks.  I don't think I could
    get too intimate with someone who was grossly obese (read: 50% or
    more over normal bodyweight), but I could certainly be a close friend.
    Smoking is much worse in my mind than being overweight.  I, too,
    feel appearance is highly overrated by some.
    
    And as this dichotomy appears where the outwardly-highly-attractive woman
    is often considered flighty, dumb, silly - and the
    outwardly-normal-looking woman is considered much more of a good
    human being (valued for what they are inside), I am at an impasse.
    I have been over 200 pounds before - and I have been losing weight
    steadily for a while now.  Even I can see the difference in how
    I look.  I get the feeling that, by the end of the summer, I will
    be much more attractive than I've ever been before.  I have ambivalent
    feelings about this - will I be taken lightly?  Will people like
    me just for my body?  Will men come on to me in droves - for the
    wrong reasons?  Will no one want to know who I am inside?  Will
    people who had overlooked me before (when I was overweight) suddenly 
    want to be closer to me?  I have to resolve this before I am
    comfortable with myself at whatever weight I decide will be my goal.
    
    I, personally, would also have avoided meeting this man.  Anyone
    who cannot even imagine a date with someone who was less than his
    physical standards for a "mate" seems pretty shallow, kind of akin
    to a woman who has monetary standards for her boyfriends (they have
    to be of a certain profession, or make a certain amount a year to
    gain her interest).  I am discovering more and more that you can't
    judge a book by its cover.  
    
    -Jody
      

    Well, I won't
    
    		go out with anyone I'm "fixed up with"
    
    		go out on blind dates
    
    [anymore].  
    
    At least you found out before going out with the character.
    There's no telling why each of us have the preferences we do.
    Usually, when you're "fixed up with" someone, there's pressure from
    the fixer-uppers, implied or otherwise.  Also, there're a bunch
    of expectations: after all, your _friends_ think this might be a
    good idea, and your friends should know what you like, right?
    Well, sometimes: wrong!  I'd prefer to find out well before spending
    a boring or painful evening with that person.  Which is why I like
    to start out being friends first, or at least have it be my idea
    or the other person's idea, but not some scheme of some mutual friend.
    
    A lot of folks buy into the story that the man has to be bigger
    than the woman, whether they know it or not.  I'm not into any
    domination nonsense, but I did find it eerie once to watch my feelings
    about dating someone smaller than me--because I'd never done it
    before! 
                                                                

    RE: the guy has to be bigger
    
    I know a woman who is 6'7". I guess she doesn't date men shorter
    than she is, 'cause she always commenting about lokking for someone
    who's seven feet tall.
    
    I think she may be severly limiting her options.
    
    --DE
    

    I've noticed this over-preoccupation with fit-looking partners
    more and more lately, and in almost every case the person guilty
    of the limited perception is a former overweight or out-of-shape
    person who has become a member of the Church of the Athletic Body.
    
    They seem to think that anyone who isn't physically fit isn't fit
    to associate with, either.  I suppose they're threatened by
    an unfit person's reminder of what they used to be, that by
    being in contact with fat, they'll get fat themselves.  
    
    They usually get over it in a year or two....
        
    --bonnie

    This reminds me of some of the ads I've read in the Singles notesfile.
     I think some of those get pretty shallow.  I read one where the
    guy only wanted to meet a woman with dark hair and eyes, another
    who wanted to to only meet a woman with blonde, red, light brown
    hair and blue eyes, another where the guy said that since he's "quite
    tall" he didn't want to meet anyone under 5'8" tall.  What do any
    of these superficial characteristics have to do with whether or
    not you love another human being?  How can you love somebody more
    because their hair is black, or because they're a certain height?
     It's depressing to realize how shallow many people are in what
    they look for in a date.
    
    As far as the friend of the prospective date bringing up the weight
    issue, he may have done it only because he knows his friend's shallow
    tastes only too well.  I know, for example, that I can look at a
    guy and know if he's "cute enough" for one of my girlfriends to
    consider dating, and I have a male friend who would probably rather
    become a monk than date an overweight woman.  So, knowing that,
    what would be the sense of setting up some unsuspecting person who
    wouldn't appeal to them.
    
    Lorna
    

    Some people would like it if they could design their own woman or
    man, as the case may be.  None of us are perfect - we all have 
    flaws.  That is part of being a human being.  I dated some of 
    the men that advertised in the SINGLES conference and was very
    disappointed in most of them.  They seemed to be very shallow
    people for the most part.  I am rather on the chunky side myself
    and I got the impression that that fact was a turn off for some
    of them.  They didn't actually express this in words but one can
    tell.  It's really too bad because they missed starting a 
    relationship with a very warm and loving person who has lots of
    talents and interesting things to offer - namely "me".  I sure
    didn't let it bother me or lose any sleep over it.  If anything,
    I forgot about them immediately after the date.
    
    Wouldn't it be really boring if we all looked alike - slim, beautiful,
    etc., ad nauseam.  It would be really nice to look at the inner
    beauty in people, instead of their fatness or slimness or whatever.
    If not, we all become clones and then I suppose there are people
    out there that wish we could all think alike.  If that ever happens,
    (which is pure fantasy for some), we might as well just hang it
    up and forget the whole thing.
    

    The only ways in which appearance sway me are the set of the
    mouth and the look of the eye; to me, these indicate a lot about
    the personality.  And a certain amount of neatness and cleanness
    are useful too.
    
    But weight?  Well, depends on whether we're talking weight or
    volume.  The size and shape of my friends and acquaintances does
    not affect how I feel about them.  On the other hand, excess weight
    contains THREE MILES of blood vessels per pounds, and I *do* care
    if my friends are carrying a lot of extra weight because it is
    hurting them.
    
    							Ann B.
    
    P.S.  I did write "a lot of extra weight", not "some extra weight".

    I think that sexual attraction is an extremely complex mechanism and
    that people shouldn't be criticized for whatever it is that turns them
    on sexually.  For any set of physical attributes you may have, there
    will be some set of people out there who will find you attractive. 
    There are simply more people attracted to the popular image of beauty:
    that's what makes it "popular".

    It's a shame, but, prior to meeting someone, all you have to go on is
    their physical appearance.  I find that if I have regular contact with
    a person, my image of that person will change dramatically over time. 
    When I look at that person, I no longer get an impression based on my
    estimate of their physically attractiveness or level of fitness. 
    Often, judgments made on the basis of physical appeal will reverse
    themselves entirely.  People who were initially unattractive can come
    to seem "sexy".

    However, except under unusual circumstances, to date someone is to
    imply that you consider that person to be a potential mate.  [I think
    that it's a pity that it's so hard to establish any other sort of
    relationship between un-mated men and women in this culture, but that's
    another topic].  If you don't have anything to go on except your
    initial level of physical attraction, it is probably unwise to begin a
    relationship with someone whom you don't consider to be attractive. 
    You might find that you come to really enjoy that person's company,
    without coming to find them any more sexually attractive.  This is an
    extremely bad position to be in, since it's hard to redefine your
    relationship without hurting the other person's feelings.

    I think that it's better to begin with someone that you are physically
    attracted to, by whatever arbitrary criteria you use.  People who are
    rejected on this or any other basis shouldn't feel insulted.

    							-- Mikey

    I don't tend to think of myself as shallow, but I know that looks
    count for me, though its awkward to explain. Its not HOW you look but
    just KNOWING WHAT YOU LOOK LIKE! For example, my ex, whom I loved dearly,
    was a good 50-60 pounds overweight. To me, he was quite attractive.
    I've also dated a man who was about 20 pounds less than I and several
    inches taller. That was okay too.
    
    Blind dates are difficult for me because I *enjoy* looking at people;
    I feel more comfortable being familiar with one's looks at the start.
    Having to put together a familiar voice/personality with an unfamiliar
    face/body is very jarring. And I really can't explain it any better
    than that.
    
    I think its VERY reasonable to ask for some description, so that
    a person's features are less jarring at the first encounter. And
    even as I write this, I sense that this will cause some flaming,
    but for me, if I'm going to meet someone overweight who doesn't
    tell me, I will be EXPECTING someone of proportional weight and
    the discrepancy will be very jarring. It may even lead to a less
    than perfect encounter.
    
    This reminds me of the times when I decided NOT to mention my race when
    meeting someone through SINGLES. A lot of men were "jarred", because it
    is an American standard that if you don't state your race, you are
    white. I'm very proud to be black, but I let it speak for itself, which
    doesn't help on a blind date. I'm not thrilled with America's
    definition of "average", but reality and PAIN tell me that being up
    front is better. If you are 4'8" or 6'7", 500 lbs or 89 lbs, to ignore
    the fact that your features will probably not match the preliminary
    image/fantasy of your date is to dismiss reality. And to possibly set
    yourself up for a disaster. 
                                                            
    Signed,
    
    a "former" SINGLES noter!

       I think it's an extremely risky to start judging the critera and
       standards that other people use to evaluate potential friends and
       lovers.  Seems to me that it's each individual's business.  
       
       --Mr Topaz
       
       p.s., re .10:  That was an eloquent note, Lorna -- speaking as a
       generously-proportioned man, I'm glad to see that you seem to have
       changed from when you proclaimed your aversion to us fat folk. 

    Years ago I went through a painful (is there any other kind?) divorce.
    For several years after I seemed to date men that were very much
    my ex-husband's "type".  I had not noticed it, but a girlfriend
    of mine pointed it out.  I was more drawn to light haired men with
    glases who were of medium build.  When I started dateing my current
    husband, a number of people remarked that he was a departure from
    my norm.  Gerry  has dark hair, 20/20 vision, and 6'2" with loads of 
    rippling muscles (*sigh*).  After we knew each other for only a short 
    while, the subject of "usual body type preference" came up.  I sort of
    mentioned that he was not much like the people I usually dated (he
    indicated that the same was true of me!).  Shortly thereafter he
    went on a business trip.  When he returned, he had noticably lighter
    hair (he insisted it was the sun) and wore glasses (he said it cured
    his headaches)!  Years later he admitted that he only did it so
    I would like him more.  I don't think he has done anything before
    or since that flattere me more.
    
    Marion
    he admitted that he

    
      I used to look only at the package and ignored the gift inside!
    
    I was Engaged to a Norwegian girl in 1961, She was Tall 5'11" and
    neat and Trim.  I never cared that she was taller than I am 5'10",
    and I liked her in High Heels.  I enjoyed her company and would
    have married her, but she finally married my friend.  
    
    Next I was Engaged to a "buxom" lady in Florida who dropped me
    without reason.  I eventually married a large Busted woman who
    had nothing in common with me and after two daughters, we parted
    company.
    
    I AM NOW MARRIED TO THE LOVE OF MY LIFE,  SHE IS OVERWEIGHT,
    SMALL BUSTED AND HAS LOTS OF HEALTH PROBLEMS.  
    
    I love my wife and not only that we are best of friends.
    
    A gift can not be improved upon with a fancy package, in fact
    a package can detract from the gift inside.
    
    Do not worry about a JERK who is so wrapped up in himself that 
    he becomes a really small package.
    
    Stay sweet and eventually a Right Guy will come along!
    
    Best of luck,
    
    
    Dave

    I heard on the radio this morning that a study has shown that
    the majority of men prefer shorter women, finding them more
    attractive, but that the majority of women do not find height
    in men to have any significance for them.
    
    Which might explain the 6'7" woman who was looking for 7' men:
    She didn't need the rejection from `shorter' guys.
    
    							Ann B.

    RE: .18
    
    Ann, when I was a teenager, the feeling that boys got from girls,
    was that a girl refused to go out with a guy who was shorter than
    she.
    
    So, the boys who were tall and the girls who were short were in
    "fat-city"; their choices were almost unlimited. The shorter boys
    and the taller girls had their selections proscribed.
    
    Trust me: back then, there were plenty of tallish girls who I would've
    loved to have asked out for a date. But the mores of those times
    seemed to preclude that possibilty.
    
    I'm not totally sure that that attitude - on the part of both sexes
    - isn't in force today, albeit to a lesser degree.
    
      Alan                                

    Good point, Ann. She probably just gave up expecting a shorter man
    to be interested. On the other hand, the last time I even *saw*
    a guy over 7' was on TV, wearing a cute pair of green and gold shorts.
    
    --DE
    

    RE: .18-.20

    I hate to admit it, but there is a pretty narrow range of height
    wherein I find women attractive.  Women much taller or very much
    shorter than I am (6 feet) don't seem to be sexual beings:  they're
    just "people".  This does not change as I get to know them, either.  We
    might become close friends, but it would never cross my mind to
    consider them as potential lovers.  When I first noticed this, it
    seemed kind of a shallow attitude, but it is sufficiently ingrained to
    be akin to sexual orientation.

    A friend of mine once suggested that men had always subconsciously bred
    for smaller (i.e., easier to physically intimidate) women. [It seems
    strange to me that the genes governing height would be sex linked].
    This might not be so far from true.  To be a social animal is to be
    conformant to some degree:  life is always easier if you can submerge
    as many of your differences as comfortably possible.  If you grow up
    seeing couples comprised of people of either roughly equal height or
    where the man is taller, you'll probably try to emulate that example
    when it comes time for you to form a couple.

    							-- Mikey

    re: intimidation.
    HAHA I am 6-2 at 250 and Melissa is 5-2 at 100 (minus baby) Make
    me laugh.... Tell her that and she'll kick yours, mine and anyone
    else ass that has anything "intimidating" to say or do.
    
    Anyone that has a special criteria that must be filled has a long
    way to go before they can be labeled an adult.  
    Melissa is not my "type" at all.  Especially in height.  I love
    to dance and although it IS a little uncomfortable bending that
    far down :-) I still enjoy the looks we get. 
    
    I love Mel for who she is, not for "what she has"  She is a wonderful
    woman and I wouldn't trade her or OUR children for anything!
    
    Please excuse this interruption, We now return to our regularly
    scheduled program....

    
    Personally looks have never been all that important to me. Probably
    because I grew up with so many insecurities about my own image.
    I had always considered myself the ugliest girl in school because
    I was fat. I'm still fat, but today it doesn't cause me quite the
    stress that it did when I was younger and was subjected to the cruelty
    of children's remarks.
    
    I weigh 80 pounds more than my husband who never fails to let me
    know that I am the love of his life. I guess looks just aren't all
    that important to him either. We all have our own "inner light".
    How brightly it shines depends upon the individual.
    
    I have plans to visit the Nashua area this summer and plan to meet
    alot of noting pals that I've been "talking" with over the last
    few years. I don't want anyone to be "jarred" when they see me,
    so just for everyone's general information:
    
    1. I am fat.
    2. My natural hair is liberally streaked with silver. <grey>
    3. I am tall.
    4. I have big feet.
    
    Hmmmmmm...kinda sounds like an older amazon, eh? ;-) But today I
    view myself as one of the cutest little things going. ;-)
    
                                 -sunny-

    RE: .22

    I think that you were replying to my comments in .21.  Sorry -- I
    seem to have offended you.  That wasn't intentional.  I don't think
    that I ever implied that I have anything against very short and very
    tall people -- I was just acknowledging that I don't find them to be
    sexually attractive.   I may find them to be pleasant looking people
    and I might in any case form close friendships with them:  I just don't
    find them to be sexually attractive.  My entire point is that this is
    no big deal and if someone has no romantic interest in you because of
    the way you look (fat, tall, short, thin, bald, hairy, black, white,
    yellow, *whatever*) this is not something which should insult you.

>>    Anyone that has a special criteria that must be filled has a long
>>    way to go before they can be labeled an adult.  

    I think that we all have special criteria that have to be filled in the
    people whom we chose to love.  In most relationships, these criteria
    are not physical,  but in romance, at least for me, it's necessary to
    feel some physical desire for a potential partner.  Obviously, you are
    sexually attracted to your wife and her height was not a factor in it.

    Please don't call me a moose (or, indirectly, a child).

    								-- Mikey

    Re .21, I'm glad my current boyfriend doesn't feel the way you do
    about height.  He's 6'2", 205 lbs., and I'm 5'1", 95 lbs.  We would
    have missed out on a lot of good times if he felt the way you do.
    
    On the other hand, when I met my ex-husband 17 years ago he was
    a very cute 5'6".   Having tall girls snub him cut down on the
    competition and it was their loss and my gain as far as I was
    concerned!
    
    For the most part, if I want to look at something pretty I'll look
    at one of my Renoir reproductions or some flowers or one of my cats.
     I have other criteria for picking people - such as conversation,
    wit, kindness, and compatibility.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    
    re: .24
    
    I read that title as a quote from his wife (mel) Melanie speaking
    to him. (SALEM::AMARTIN) 
    
                                
                                     -sunny-

    I'm entering this note for someone who wishes to remain anonymous
    for now.


----------------------------------------
The timeliness of this subject matter is unbelievable. Presently I am going 
through a crisis.

Even when I was just beginning my school years I was overweight. Very 
overweight, and I've remained overweight into adulthood.

I fell in love with my husband through correspondence as he fell in love with 
me. When we decided to meet, I can't describe my terror. I was so sure that 
one look at my bloated body would send him running to the hills. Even though 
our personalities are perfect complements one to the other, I just knew he's 
be "turned off" with my obesity. I tend not to "judge" other people by their 
physical sides, but I harbored a lot of insecurities about my own. In any 
event, the man I had fallen in love with looked beyond my physical parts and 
we married and it's been a very satisfying union in all respects except one.

The only thing is our marriage that seems to give us any stress is the sexual 
side of our partnership. I was raised in an open environment with loving 
parents who encouraged healthy sexual attitudes, and my husband was raised in 
an environment where sex was taboo. He never learned to equate love with sex 
it seems. It hurts to know that he only views sex as a "hurry up and get it 
over with" type of attitude.

He is obsessed with the female body in magazines and videos. The pretty young 
things with the gorgeous bodies. He acts as though I should feel honored that 
he has physical relations with me at all since my body is less than "perfect". 
I don't feel honored...I feel used. I feel as though I'm a woman who should be 
requesting payment in advance as there is no tenderness, no love, just "wham! 
bam! thank you ma'am" and it's over. I realize that in part, I'm jealous of the 
type of woman that can get him turned on. But mostly I abhor the degradation 
these women have submitted to in posing for the camera. They all seem to come 
off as the "perfect sex kittens", the ultimate in "men's toys and dreams."

I am doing something about my weight problem. I've joined a nutrition program 
that is healthy and is working. I've already lost 45 pounds, a fact of which 
I'm very proud. But to tell you the truth, I'm not losing this weight for my 
husband. I'm losing it for me. But it's scary, real scary. When I reach my 
final goal...when I'm thin, the type of woman that seems to be his ideal, will 
it be _me_ that he loves...or will it be the "body"? Will the sex improve? 
Will I get the affection I crave? Is that what happens when you're thin? When 
I'm not around he watches videos with lots of porn and gets himself off. It's 
the only way he can get turned on and seemingly reach real physical 
satisfaction.  It seems rather unfair that he can get sexual gratification 
while I pine for the romance, the affection and a little tenderness in our 
physical union. 

So you probably think the answer is to "finish losing weight". I will lose the 
weight..that's not my concern. My self-image is so low right now that I'd have 
to climb up into a gutter just to begin to see it. I have encased myself in a 
self-loathing shell and I'm no longer sure of what my _real_ feelings are for 
my husband.

He knows how much it hurts me when he watches the videos and reads the 
magazines and makes those sly little biting remarks. We've talked about it till 
we're blue in the face and yet he seems to take perverse pleasure in hurting 
me in this manner. This has been an ongoing pain for me, I've reached my 
limit and I don't know how much more I can take. If God hadn't created us with 
sex drives, my husband and I would probably be "the perfect couple".

    re. 27
    he is the one with the problem not you.
    i am 5'2"  and 95 pounds  and i have had the same problem years
    ago with a lover.
    it is very threatening,it made me feel like a piece of dirt.
    i felt very unattractive
    
    the best i could do was to ignore it(not nag,dont cry etc...) and
    our "love life" improved somewhat.
    
    i did talk to somebody professsional about it,and he is the one
    that is insecure.
    
    not very good advice,but i know that it does hurt

    RE:  .23  WXHDRM::SUNNY
    
    >>  3)  I am tall
    >>  4)  I have big feet
    
    With your height, if your feet were any shorter, you'd probably
    fall over frontwords.  I am also tall, and have a "safe" shoe size.
    
    Marion
    
    

	RE: .27

	I think you both need help.  You should try and get some
	marriage counseling.  If you can't convince him to just
	give it a try, at least go for yourself.  Good luck.

	...Karen

	p.s.  Don't give up on the nutritious diet.  Good eating will
	help you feel better physically which will affect your mental
	attitude.

    re.27  me again
    i guess what i was tryin to say was that it doesnt matter what you
    look like. 
    sexual feelings/love is all in the head.
    most people i have talked to make love to the person not the "body".
    
    the professional i did talk about did stress that he was the one
    with the problem.
    i did note that the amount i did cry,scream,and nag made matters
    worse.i even wnet through the house finding all his hidden books
    etc  and ripped them up and left it a pile for him to find.
    that went over like a lead balloon...
    
    
    
    

    RE:26  SUNNY  Fancy meeting you here...:-)  Yes the comment was
    in fact ment as a quote from MELISSA (Mel) Not Melanie. :-)  Thanks
    anyway.
    RE:24  MIKEY  Sorry.  It wasnt ment as a counter "attack"  I am sorry
    it looked like that.  You see, I have this problem with notes...
    I say one thing and it ALWAYS comes across the wrong way.  I'll
    figure it out one of these days.  Again, sorry.
                      Oh well.....There's always next time...

    
    	Re .27,
    
    If your self esteem is as you say, you'll be better off spending
    some time with people who let you feel good about yourself. I'm not
    "encouraging trouble" with your husband, but gawd, if he's watching
    what you say he is to "get off", well, that isnt very approving
    of you, is it? Find some, perhaps even through this medium, who
    have it in them to give you some support, positive encouragement
    and lots of exposure to a positive reflection of you.
    
    When he asks where you're going, just say "to be with friends".
    If he asks "why" or "So, what do you get from them" simply tell
    him straight out; "I feel good about myself when I'm with them,
    which is something I dont do when I'm with you". He will find this
    either acceptable or not. Either way, *you'll* be feeling good
    about your *self*, which is what really matters to you now. Time
    to put "the marriage" on the second priority level for a while...  
    
    There is a possible "problem" with the result of losing the weight.
    (again, I'm *not* advising against your chosen course of action)
    Let's say you lose *100* lbs! Whatever. Suddenly, you're "more
    attrractive" in the cliche'd "body" sense and are getting some
    unexpected "public" attention. You notice, and eventually the strokes
    and messages do have a positive impact on your self esteem. You also
    find that your husband notices and you suspect his interest is in
    your "new body" or whatever. But be careful in judging him about
    that, and dont forget forgiveness. Because you cannot completely
    determine that his notice of change is of the new *physical* you or
    the newly *esteemed* you since *both* will be more attractive! So,
    how will you tell, without making an assumption, realizing the
    true_ism that you also look better when you feel better about yourself?
    ...Just some thoughts that you can consider if you'd like :')
                                                                           
    	Joe Jas

    re: .27
    
    I don't know if this applies to your case or not, but I've read
    that in many cases where an overweight woman manages to lose
    weight and become much more attractive, her husband becomes very
    threatened. 
    
    In many such marriages, the thin partner married the heavy one
    because his own self-esteem was weak and he thought that no
    attractive woman would want him.  Or that no one else would try to
    compete for his woman.  Now that the wife is thin, he's terrified
    that she's going to find someone else. 
    
    Marital counselling might be a big help in this case.
    
    --bonnie

    re:.27
    
    It sounds to me like he's got a problem, but not the problem that
    you (or others here) may think. You said that because of his up-
    bringing, he does not seem to equate sex with love. Perhaps *that*
    is the reason for his interest in porno. Perhaps he sees sex as
    something "dirty", so he directs his sexual interest toward women
    in magazines and films that, to him, are just bodies and nothing
    else. He may genuinely love you, but not see you as a sex object,
    because you *are* someone he loves. Perhaps that's why he was able
    to overlook your extra weight, because he saw you as someone to
    *love*, not to have sex with. What sex life you two have may be
    because he figures it's expected, even if not something that he
    particularly wants. If this is the case, his attitude toward you
    may not change at all when you become more physically attractive.
    
    You two definitely need to talk it over, preferably in the company
    of a counselor (in fact, a good counselor is exactly the kind that
    gets you to talk it out with each other while he or she "referees").
    He probably doesn't realize how important the sexual aspect is to
    you, and you need to know exactly why he sees love and sex as
    discrete things.
    
    --- jerry

    A response from the author of .27:
    
    ------------------------------------------ 
    
    While it may very well be what .35 says, we have a very active sex
    life. That's what makes it so unbelievable.  We usually have sex at
    least 6 times a week!  True, he has an extremely high sex drive, but my
    God!  He's got to learn to calm his hormones down a bit.  If he was
    only getting his jollies once every two or so weeks, I could understand
    it.  He says the only time he "breaks down" is when I'm not around
    (gone shopping or other errands), although he knows he's gonna get some
    action when I come back. 
    
    I've suggested going to a marriage counselor (both of us or just me)
    and he said he would rather kill himself than let anyone know that we
    are having (gasp!) sex problems.  At this particular point in time, it
    would be ill-advised to seek counseling. 
    
    Thanks for the support, though.  It has helped me get through this
    somewhat easier. 

re .27, .36

    I'd be tempted to go to a counselor anyway.  I don't know
    whether it's worth the strain of trying to hide it, but you
    could possibly make appointments during your lunch hour
    rather than evenings or weekends.  If he feels threatened
    that you're telling a stranger about your sex life,
    well...again, I don't know whether it's worth prevaricating,
    but maybe you could tell him that you're going to a counselor
    because you're having problems with your self-image,
    whatever, but stress that you're going for your *own*
    reasons, not to bitch about him or try to change him.  Most
    people are *very* threatened if they feel someone's trying to
    force them to change; you may need therapy simply to cope
    with something that he can't change (at least right now) or
    to learn some non-threatening, supportive ways to help both
    of you grow in your relationship.

    I'm not at all sure this is good advice, because it involves
    either flat-out lying (like making appointments and telling
    him you did something else) or possibly misrepresenting what
    you hope the counseling will do for you.  On the other hand,
    I know from bitter experience that laying down an ultimatum
    ("I'm unhappy with our sex life and I'm going to do something
    about it; I'm going to see a counselor whether you go with me
    or not") can backfire disastrously.  If you feel this isn't a
    good time to seek counseling, you may be right.

    A better approach (mentioned a few notes back) might be to do
    things with friends, just go out to eat, to the movies, to
    the ballgame, whatever.  Get some of the friendship and
    attention you need from friends, if you can't (right now) get
    it from your SO.  If there's a women's support group of some
    sort in your area, think about getting involved with them.
    It's not always counseling and therapy, strictly speaking,
    that go on in those groups; it's often more like what goes on
    in WomanNotes, sharing and supporting.  There may be groups
    around for people who are losing/trying to lose weight, and
    some of these issues might be appropriate there. Your SO
    might not feel so threatened by some of these things as by
    the word "therapy." 

    I'm not licensed or trained, but I'm willing to be a friend
    and a listening ear.  Send me mail if you'd like to carry on
    an off-line conversation.  Unless you're in Kansas City, I
    can't offer much more than electronic conversation.  :)

    Good luck, whatever you do.

    -- Linda

    Dear .27,
    
    I think the counselor idea is a good one, too.  It's valid for you
    because, well, losing that much weight is a big change and may bring
    other anxieties (will more people find you attractive now?  how
    should you change your wardrobe and style?).  Do this for yourself.
    If your husband's too threatened to do something for yourself, this
    is a very sad thing, but you shouldn't cripple your own personal
    growth.  You may have to be very firm in insisting that you are
    going to have counseling on your own about your weight and your
    mental well-being.
    
    The fear of talking about sexual problems combined with an overactive
    sex drive combined with the problems of love vs sex sound like he's
    got a problem with having to prove his sexual adequacy.  This is
    not your problem, although it is a painful one to watch a loved
    one have.  It is no reflection on you, though.
    
    Take care of yourself.  I think you can always find advice and support
    in this notesfile.

    
    In most cases, people can do things to improve their appearance.
    If you are unhappy about the way you look, work on it.  This could
    be losing weight, gaining weight, doing something different with
    your hair, buying some new clothes, or even plastic surgery.
    
    True, we shouldn't love based on the 'outside' or shell... but,
    it is a fact, that if you look in the mirror and don't like what
    you see, then, chances are, other people won't like it much either.
    AND, improving your outward appearance, WILL improve your self-image.
    
    It takes some hard work to lose weight, and even control it.  Mainly,
    it takes a lot of discipline, which many, many, people lack.
    Sometimes, it's easier for people to say, "He/She should love me
    for what's on the inside of me, and the way I look shouldn't matter."
    
    Translated:  I'm too lazy and don't have enough discipline to take
                 care of myself.
    
    
    
    

	RE: .39

	However, socialized concepts of beauty often make people
	feel bad about themselves.  In this case people need to
	realize that society is wrong, not them.  Don't go to
	futile efforts to improve what doesn't need improving.

	...Karen