Conference turris::womannotes-v1

        Relevant to this note and to the 'women's roles' note...
        
        I  viewed  my mother as a stereotypical  female  parent;    she
        enjoys her garden, the flowers and the vegetables;   she enjoys
        her house, her home - the decoration and the  cleanliness.  She
        likes  to knit and attend folk music concerts in the  highlands
        and islands on the west coast of  Scotland  and  to  breed West
        Highland Terriers.   She takes pride in the fact  that  I  left
        home at 15 and made my own way in the world.
        
        A  female  nonentity?    No  way!    She  worked  in  the  fuel
        distribution test area in Rolls Royce during WW2 (where she met
        my father) as an engineer, something I knew nothing about until
        she was ready to tell me.
        
        She chose her life-style and I think she's happy with it.
        
        Andy
        

	Stereotypes in its basic sense can be seen as preconceive ideas relating
	to a whole group of society which have certain things in common.
	Unfortunately we all suffer from a certain amount of this disease.
	The problems are when we are faced with negative generalisations 
	which someone has turned into a "fact".  This is normally done by 
	rationalising and citing facts to support their assumptions. I mean,
	women are naturally weak ... they obviously need a man to think
	for them and their place is naturally in the home and not in the
	"man's world" ... and that is a fact everyone knows that! 

	_M.D.S_

    
    	I like the wording at the end of .0! I wonder what other
    "preconceived ideas" - and contexts - there are to which the "double
    edge" analogy applies?
    
    	Joe Jas

    
    
    .0 cuts close - I have always had a problem with handsome men ...
    I am continually surprised (and embarrassed, and somewhat humiliated)
    when I meet a handsome man who turns out to be friendly, too.
    
    The other problem I have is with men who have 'picture book' lives:
    career, house, wife who is a full time homemaker with his 2.3 kids,
    dog, etc.  I resent the traditional role society dictates for
    women, and (consequently I guess) I resent the person who seems to
    benefit most from the arrangement.  To be exact, I resent the
    stereotype, and all it implies in the negative for women, and 
    have trouble separating the stereotype from the person.
    
    I'm having just this trouble now with my SO's boss - I can't 
    decide if he really is an arrogant b*****d, or just a rich guy
    with a blond wife, three blond kids and a golden retriever 
    whom I'm having difficulty getting to know. : )
                                     
      kasey
     

    
    	Re .4
    
    Then you'd probably hate the guy who lives across the street from
    me, with his BIG pickup truck, Captain of the town fire hall crew,
    his two (not one, *two*) yappy little dogs, his one Son, his house
    that must be worth well over 200K with all the work he's putting
    into it, and of course his attractive wife who doesnt seem to mind
    ""just"" being his wife... I dont know if she works or not -
                     
    Or how bout the people next door to them? Talk is, being a housewife
    is *all* she want to do. So?
    
    So what kinds of lives are people supposed to live, if not the ones
    *they* want and am most comfortable with? Or is my neighborhood an
    exception? Your resentment of a man's "story book" life is ill founded,
    because for all you know, it may be just as much a "story book"
    from his wife's perspective. I 'spose there is "something wrong" with
    two married people, who, from their perspective, *have* the story
    book life they've always "dreamed of" and are perfectly happy with
    it.      
    	Joe Jas
    

	RE: .5

	Joe, I got the impression that Kasey thought that it was her
	own problem that she had trouble with the sterotypical family.
	She wasn't out to denigrate those families in her note.

	..Karen

    
     Hmmph, I didn't know I was being that unclear ...
    
     I KNOW my resentment is ill founded ... it is a stereotype problem
    that both hurts me and the subject of the stereotype, which is why
    I entered the reply to this topic.  Maybe I should say I'm certainly
    working on overcoming it - I guess I thought that was given.  I
    don't feel prejudging anyone based on a sterotype is either fair
    or acceptable - I do however, being human, recognize myself doing
    it occasionally (to my embarrasment, and humiliation, as noted).
    
      I don't know if I'd "hate" the guy across the street ... I haven't
    met him.  The gentleman I've having difficulty getting to know,
    I've MET.  I just recognize a hangup of mine which might be
    contributing to that difficulty.
    
      Also, please don't read "I dislike housewives" from my statement
    that the traditional expectations for women in this society can
    be limiting to some women.  I really didn't mean to sound like
    I resent traditional women, or traditional couples, or anyone who
    chooses a traditional path.  I am sorry if that is how I sounded.  
    Whatever anyone chooses is naturally their own business, and if 
    they are deliriously happy with it, all the better.  (Incidently, 
    as far as I know, the couple I mentioned is deliriously happy)
    
    kasey
      
      

    I am constantly amazed at the attitude of people in this conference
    toward women who have chosen a different path for their lives. In many
    cases, the assumption is that an intelligent, worthwhile woman could
    not *possibly* voluntarily choose such a lifestyle, and therefore those
    who do are either shallow and stupid, or they are being held captive by
    their husbands, who hogtie them to the bed each morning and force them
    to stay barefoot and pregnant. 
    
    Kasey, while this is a reply to your note, I don't mean to be directing
    my flames only at you.  I thought most of us had as a goal learning
    to value differences, but that doesn't appear to be the case with
    a number of the participants in this conference.
    
    Why is it so totally unacceptable for a woman to spend her life working
    to please her husband and family, and in doing so to realize complete
    satisfaction with her own life?  Why is that so different from spending
    your life working to please your boss?  Why is freezing 20 quarts of
    peas for your family to enjoy in the winter a less worthy goal than
    meeting a deadline for a project? 
    
    If you're talking about women who are forced into a lifestyle they
    don't want, then I think the opposite case is far more prevalent in our
    society:  the wife/mother who would rather stay home but must bring
    home a paycheck in order for the family to make ends meet.  Using
    your logic, you would resent the husband in such a family because
    he doesn't earn enough money to let his wife stay home and fulfill
    her personal goals.  What am I missing here?

    I'm sorry, I just don't understand. 
    
    							Pat

    hold on, pat,
    
    my understanding of this string is that a few people have said "I
    have some prejudices. They're not necessarily desireable, and I'm
    thinking about how to work on them." Is this so terrible? Would
    you rather that people didn't discuss how they felt or what they
    were working on? Would you like to admit that you're thinking about
    your assumptions and be jumped on for your intolerance? 
    
    I was particularly struck by your comment:
    
    > I thought most of us had as a goal learning
    > to value differences, but that doesn't appear to be the case with
    > a number of the participants in this conference.

    I'm wondering if, in the future, you could word your messages so
    that they appear to be less of a personal attack.
    
    Liz Augustine

    
    I think Pat was responding less to Kasey (who seems interested
    in understanding and changing any prejudices) and more to the
    recent string of replies in note 795 (Women and Isolation). 
    I, too, have been upset with several of the replies which negatively
    stereotype the woman who chooses not to work outside her house.
    The writers of those notes don't sound as if they are working on
    changing.  Kasey just happened to touch on a nerve that was already
    sore.
    
    Sue Kallas 

    I am not attacking anyone personally, and apologize if I sound
    otherwise.  However, I suspect my flames are mild compared to the
    flames I would receive if I entered a note stating that I consider
    (blacks/Mexican Americans/homosexuals or whatever other minority you
    might name) are inferior to us WASPs.  That kind of bigotry would
    receive little if any defense (and certainly deserves none), but the
    kind of bigotry being articulated here seems to be more defensible for
    some reason I don't understand. 
    
    While I don't mean to attack anyone personally, I AM attacking this
    attitude of the feminist movement. This is the very reason I have
    refrained from becoming active in any feminist organizations, or spoken
    out for the movement.  Feminism, in my mind, should advocate a *choice*
    for women.  That's something we didn't have even as recently as 10
    years ago.  And it's something our parents certainly didn't have.  But
    many (maybe *most*) feminists have decided that any woman who *chooses*
    the traditional (read that stereotypical) role in life is lower than
    whale s**t. And, yes, I have a *serious* problem with that attitude. 
    
    If I've offended people, I'm sorry.
    
    							Pat

	I'm sorry, but I think people are blowing this way out of
	porportion.  Both in this note and in the isolation note, people
	are talking about their own problems.  No one has said that
	women who are in the traditional role have problems.  I personally
	said that I feel isolated from women in traditional roles because
	I have nothing in common with them.  I don't like many of the
	things that are "typical women" things.  I worry that these
	women don't like me or think I'm strange because of this. 

	Stating that I can't relate to people who drink coffee is not
	saying that people who drink coffee should be looked down upon,
	even though I can't conceive of how anyone would ever like to
	drink the stuff (gagg).

	...Karen

    The comments in this and the isolation note have gone way beyond an
    inability to relate to a homemaker.  I believe one of the writers
    stated that she is scared to death someone will ever mistakenly
    identify her with that group.  The context of the comments strongly
    implies an extremely demeaning attitude toward women outside corporate
    America.
    
    I don't believe anything is being accomplished here.  Since I started
    the flames, I'll take the initiative to stop them.
    
    Again, if I've offended anyone personally, I apologize.
    
    							Pat

    re: .14
    
    What do you want us to do, Pat?
    
    Lie to you and ourselves and pretend that we're all good girls,
    rather than face the unpleasant truth and try to work it through?
    
    --bonnie

    So far what we've seen is the idea that stereotyping can cause you
    to miss out on some good relationships.  I dislike stereotyping
    not for what it might do, but for what it is - laziness.  Intellectual
    laziness.  Stereotyping is a short cut way of dealing with people.
    To some degree, it's natural and even somewhat necessary.  Grouping
    people that you don't know really well makes it easier to deal with
    the sheer numbers.
    
    The problem with stereotyping is that it's too easy to *just*
    stereotype.  It's too easy to fall into the habit of pigeon-holing
    people.  It's too easy to refuse to deal with the inherent complexity
    of people (and life in general).  Instead of stretching your mind,
    you shrink it.

    Karen, 
    
    The coffee-drinking analogy doesn't hold up here.  To be more
    analogous you would have to say "I don't choose to drink coffee
    AND people who do drink coffee are limited folk who can only
    talk about movies and tv shows."  Some of the replies
    in 795 were a put-down of the stay-at-home mother because they made
    sweeping generalizations that were just as ignorant.  In my experience,
    the qualities of being boring, limited, petty or superficial are
    equally distributed among us all, men and women alike, working women
    and stay-at-home mothers alike.  I am a feminist and I wouldn't let
    a man get away with saying things like traditional women have no other
    interests than shopping, cooking, children;  it makes me even more
    upset coming from other women.
    
    Sue Kallas
    
    ps. I've hung around with "traditional" women a lot and they rarely
    discuss cooking and/or recipes.  It seems to be working people who
    cook on the weekends who are into talking about it.
    

    
    I think it's important for us to always try to avoid stereotyping
    each other.  However I think it's not only ok but valuable for
    us to try and expose our own prejudices when we can and when we
    dare.  That way we can work to change them.  If someone avoids
    me because I'm a "dyke," I guess we both lose out, but if
    a coworker (or acquaintance) actually approaches me and says
    that she thinks she's been avoiding me ever since she found out
    I was a lesbian because she's always been afraid of lesbians...,
    then we may have a real chance of working it out.  In both cases,
    stereotypes are involved, but in the second case, there's hope
    for change.
               
    As I've read some of the notes here, I felt that many of the women
    were very brave to expose their prejudices and their fears.  Is
    there a way that we can do that here without offending each other?
    
    Justine

    I don't think I do very much stereotyping.  One thing I actively
    do is try to think against stereotyping.  (I'm assuming that I
    do *some* stereotyping things, but that's not what I want to talk
    about here.)
    
    *Because* the third person singular indefinite pronoun is "he",
    I try to think of all not-yet-identified people as she.  And I
    try to speak of each of them as "she".  So, when a friend announces
    the discovery of a new dentist or doctor, I ask about "her".  When
    I'm wrong, I feel no embarassment -- I made a deliberate choice;
    I made no mindless assumptions.  When I'm right, I feel good --
    but I now have a friend who just might think I can read minds.
    
    The down side is that I have obligated myself to thinking of That
    Jerk Driver Who Just <verb phrase> In Front Of Me as a woman, until
    such time as I can determine the actual sex of the driver.
    
    (One stereotype I DO believe in:  A Man Wearing A Hat is a driver who
    should be given an extra car length of margin because he is much
    given to unpredictable braking.  (Men Smoking Pipes should be
    treated the same way, but you can almost never spot the pipe.))
    
    I think about the stereotypes:  As I meet a handsome man, I think
    "I wonder how much he is bothered by people who react to him as
    a handsome man?"  (In one particular case, he was wearing a very
    large, conspicuous wedding ring, so I decided the answer was "A
    lot.")  When I meet a `person of color' I wonder how this person
    feels about others' reactions to her, and how she feels about my
    reaction, and what the ideal reaction ought to be, and how far from
    it I am, and am I prejudiced in some way and does this show, and
    (if she seems like a nice person) if she feels it is possible to
    like me.  (Don't you just hate feedback loops after a while?)
    
    I don't see the role of housewife as one deserving of a negative
    opinion by me, perhaps because my mother was and is one, and she
    is nobody's stereotypical image!  I've talked to too many "housewives"
    who turned out to have an expert level of understanding in some
    esoteric field or other for me to think of her as an exception,
    either.  What I do now is, if a woman introduces herself to me as
    a housewife, I ask her what she specializes in, prompting with
    "Baking?  Tidy?  Gardening?  Children?" or some such.  With the
    prompt, her look of confusion (It is a bizarre question; I know
    it.) changes to a big smile, and we're off.

    	   						Ann B.

    	RE: .12
    
    	Please don't characterize the negative comments about traditional
    	women as being inherently feminist.  I am a feminist and I am
    	greatly disturbed when I see women putting down fulltime
    	homemakers.  (It's one thing when an individual says that
    	s/he wouldn't want to do it -- there are plenty of women *and*
    	men that wouldn't want to do what *I* do for a living either
    	-- I am disturbed when people put down the *women themselves*
    	who make the choice of being a fulltime homemaker.)

    	While we're on the subject, I think that feminism itself suffers from
    	the stereotype that all of us put down traditional women (and
    	we don't!)  I heard Gloria Steinham talk about the work she
    	has done in trying to get our society to *value* the contributions
    	made by women who are traditional homemakers (and I support
    	that idea 100%!)
    
    	I admire some of the women here for being willing to talk about
    	their negative_feelings/fears in such an open way (it's healthy!)
    
    	However, in my opinion, the idea that *only* women in non-
    	traditional jobs should be given respect implies that all things
    	that are *traditionally* done by women are trivial/less_valuable
    	(and that the ONLY THING about professional women that gives
    	us any value is the fact that we do things that MEN do.)
    
    	I disagree with this sort of attitude very strongly!  I admit
    	that the implication may *not* be that visible, but I think it
    	is present, nonetheless.
    
    	I don't happen to think that the main (or one of the main)
    	value(s) women possess is the part of them that is most like men.

    re: .12 and .20
    
    Could you guys also keep in mind that in the discussion in the
    other string (which seems to have migrated here), those of us who
    feel difficulty in relating to more traditional women were talking
    about a gap between our intellectual understanding and our gut
    reactions? 
    
    And further, I never said that being a housewife WAS a bad thing.
    I said, and I think I may have repeated it half a dozen times,
    that BECAUSE of my relationship with my mother (it would take
    several novels to explore that) I tend to not give those women who
    remind me of her (i.e. are fully traditional housewives) a fair
    chance.  I would like to learn how to get beyond this.  MY
    PROBLEM, guys, not the housewife's, and I wish you would LISTEN to
    me instead of putting words into my mouth! 
    
    Sorry to shout, but on this issue I'm finding I'm not as tough
    as I thought.  It hurts when I'm accused of intellectual laziness
    and insincerity on false grounds.

    And it really hurts to ask for help and to get dumped on instead.
    
    --bonnie

    	RE: .21
    
    	Bonnie, I wasn't trying to "dump" on you.  If you recall, I
    	said that I admired the women who were being open about their
    	negative_feelings/fears in this note (and in 795, although I
    	forgot to mention it.)
    
    	It is *still* my opinion, however, that 1) traditionally female
    	occupations are valued less for the very *reason* that they
    	have been done traditionally by women, and that 2) there is
    	a tendency for professional women to be valued for the very
    	*reason* that we are doing jobs that have been traditionally
    	done by men.
    
    	To me, that is very much like a black person only being praised
    	because s/he "acts white."
    
    	Like I *also* said in my note, I don't think the implication
    	in attitudes toward traditional women is that apparent to most
    	people (which is why I decided to bring it up.)
    
    	Sorry if you felt put down by what I said.

    	RE:  Being a member of a group that has been stereotyped...
    
    	It is probably normal and natural for members of a group that
    	has been subject to negative stereotypes for thousands of years
    	to want to jump and down, saying, "See?  I don't fit the stereo-
    	type at all, and I feel uncomfortable around people who *do*
    	fit the stereotype!"
    
    	However, when we say that, we are "buying into" the empowered
    	group's right to have negatively stereotyped us in the first
    	place (and are *furthur* buying into the idea that we are only
    	"ok" inasmuch as we are *like* the empowered group and UNlike
    	the group that is being stereotyped.)
    
    	I think we should spend more time stamping out the stereotypes
    	themselves than in denying that we (as individuals) fit them.
    	(Just my own opinion and not meant as an insult/offense to any
    	person in particular or to any philosophy.)

Suzanne, totally true, from my experiences growing up Black.  Sometimes
it made for a lot of funny stories among all of us... 

Spike Lee's movie, "School Daze," deals directly with some of this.


BT

    I agree with the point Justine made a few notes back.  One can 
    learn the right things to *say* (=politically correct and all that)
    and parrot them safely without having to examine their own hopes and
    fears and prejudices.
    
    Alternatively, we can look at what people we respect are saying and
    hold our own hopes and fears and prejudices up to the light and take an
    honest look at them, too.  We can choose to say nothing until we have
    sorted out our own fears and values.  We can even choose stances like
    "valuing all people equally all the time".  A wonderful goal, but no
    one, not even Mother Theresa, can possibly feel that way in every
    circumstance every day! 
    
    I think the second of the above two approaches is more constructive
    for me in the long run.
    
    When writing, I'm usually careful to try to present myself as someone
    who "values all people equally".  But that's still a goal, not an
    accomplished fact.  
    
    For that reason, I think the following two statements are very,
    very different.
    
    "Women who stay at home have no ambition.  They seem satisfied with
    such trivial goals.  They are boring."
    
    [As a moderator, I'd jump all over that one just as a generalization.
    The writer would appear to be presenting it as a statement of fact
    about other people.]
    
    "My goal is to feel a sense of sisterhood with all other women --
    women of other cultures, classes, and lifestyles.  I think we have
    a lot to offer one another.
    
    At the same time, when I really look into myself, I realize what I do
    is to gravitate toward people who are like me, and who are easy to be
    with because we share assumptions.  I realize that it's relatively easy
    to be friendly with black professional women, but almost impossible for
    me to find anything to say to black or white women who have chosen to
    stay at home, raise children, and put their energy into homemaking
    and supporting a man who works.
    
    This feels like a limitation on my part.  I don't feel good about
    it, and it's hard to admit that I feel this way since people in
    the workplace see me as a feminist leader." 
                                               
    [This statement is a starting place for the woman making it.  It's
    only when we recognize our own racism, sexism, classism,
    professionalism, or whatever that we can begin to change it.  The
    writer is not promoting divisiveness as a way of life.]
    
    When trying to evaluate statements like these, I ask myself who
    the writer/speaker is talking about.  If she is making a statement
    about other people, that feels like stereotyping.  If she is discussing
    her reactions toward other people in order to learn something about
    herself which she is sharing with us, and not promoting as a viewpoint,
    that feels very different.  
                                                          
    Holly