Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    I can talk about what I do and did about it:
    
    	I started to look and listen carefully to women, especially
    	my women friends.
    
    	I found women-only activities and places, especially regular
    	ones.
    
    	I made sure women got at least equal time and commitment from
    	me.  For example, I made sure that my male friends didn't occupy
    	all my social hours by not making sure at least part of every
    	week was free to spend with women (either scheduled or spontaneous
    	events).  [Sometimes this means turning down invitations for
    	"no good reason" so that I have spare time.]
    
    	I try to get some time with my women friends when their male
    	partners aren't there too.  Yes, usually I like both of them,
    	but I know a few in which the woman is the quieter of the two.
    
    	I read notes; I write notes.
    
    	I began to seek out books by women--it's a revelatory experience
    	to find that the some of those troublesome thoughts you've had 
    	ever since you can remember are ones you share with other women.
    	That's sometimes why they're so troublesome: because you just
    	haven't found any one else with the same ideas.
                          
    I can't exactly describe how I feel when I feel isolated, except
    that I feel a little crazy.  That's too simple.  I mean, I find
    myself trying to deny certain thoughts.  Or depressed, because I
    figure nobody else has ever had to go through those things, and
    therefore I won't make it.  To be honest, I think I also become
    flirtatious, but I'm not sure.

    
    Liz, what a conincidence! I've been thinking about this issue in
    the last couple of days. Let me just digress for one moment and
    point out that there is an excellent book I picked up "Women and
    Self Esteem" which might interest the noters. Here's what it
    says in the back:
    
    "Many women feel the distressing effects of low self-esteem. They
    worry that they are inadequate or worthless; feel insecure about
    their looks and dissatisfied about their bodies; doubt that they
    are lovable; secretly believe that they don't deserve success and
    happiness; harbor fears that they are not bright enough, not talented
    enough, just not good enough ..."
    
    The book explains how these attitudes are formed and how they can
    be resolved by building higher self-esteem.
    
    Now, let's get back to the original survey in .0...
    
    Nusrat

    As Lisa mentioned, reading books (novels and poetry for me) by women
    authors is one way that I feel less isolated from other women. 
    Discovering the poetry of Marge Piercy, a few years ago, was a *big*
    help to me.  In the past few years, the majority of my reading has
    been discovering women novelists and poets from different time periods
    and countries (mainly U.S. and England).
    
    This notesfile has also helped me to communicate with a lot more
    and varied women than I ever would have in the course of my day
    as a secretary for an all male engineering group here at DEC.
    
    I also have 6 very close female friends ("girlfriends") that I can
    talk about almost anything with, and I really depend on them to
    help me feel less isolated and sane.
    
    Lorna
    

    Boy, I feel soooooo fortunate. My family is completely female dominated
    and my mother is extremely progressive. Ever since I was an adolescent,
    she has been half friend, half mother. As I have felt the need,
    I have expanded the circle to some aunts and some of mom's friends
    whenever I need the wisdom of experience or feel homesick. Its strange
    to say, but some days I want the comfort of my peers because they
    DON'T have the answers or because the questions were a bit different
    in my mother's time, but other times, I want to ponder the old answers,
    and see how they relate to my life.
    
    However, I must certainly admit that I don't have as much face-to-face
    contact with women as I'd like. I can be real snooty about who my
    friends are at times, and I recognize that this limits me. In fact,
    its a way of succumbing to the myth of the dumb blonde. I recognize
    that I must fight this and see all women as sisters, but many times
    I get caught up in the "competition" and don't relate to "beautiful"
    women unless they make an overture to me. I think our society does
    a lot to make sure that we aren't taught to work together as much
    i.e. less competitive team sports, AND that we see each other as
    rivals much of the time. Its hard not to succumb to.
    
    On top of this, the minority male culture teaches its women that
    "whites aren't trustworthy" and this affects and limits my
    relationships with white women. Sometimes I'm not sure where they
    stand on racial issues and whether the bond of womanhood will be
    stronger, other times it seems as if by definition, my struggle
    is more uphill and I question how well they can relate to my "added
    burdens". (Actually the second one is sooooo imaginary, some women
    of all races will have more uphill than others.) For me, overcoming
    all of these negative influences can be a big hurdle in the effort
    to find and develop female friends. But the need is so great that
    its worth the effort.
    
    I also have to throw in the technical angle, because although it
    causes communication problems for both genders, its especially
    detrimental for women. Techie types often forget how to communicate
    with people on non-technical levels and therefore isolate themselves. 
    Its another hurdle to leap over; I've seen some women who are closet
    techies - you don't know that they're technical once they leave
    work. And other women are the opposite... and the rest are in between.
    I have times of swinging hard from side to side. Its part of my
    effort to reach out. Too many of my female peers are NOT technical
    and I must not cut myself off from them unconsciously by staying
    in the tech world. This may work find for men, but its a disaster
    to women.
    
    I've run off at the mouth again. I guess to summarize, I run up
    one heckuva phone bill to stay in touch with women. But I allow
    "who I am" to be an excuse for selectivity/discrimination. Which
    makes it harder for me to stay in touch with women. So, if its what
    I want (yup, it is) I just have to work harder.
    
    LKF
    
    P.S. And I too find womannotes a BIG help in staying connected. 

    One thing that helped me realize my connection with women was reading
    the book "Feminist Theorists" which is a series of essays on historical
    women and their theories.  That was the first time that I could
    see in print that women throughout history have had the same ideas,
    theories and they came to these through their own personal experience
    in living.  Click!  I am not alone.  I have ideas that have been
    shared before and probably will be shared by other people in the
    future.
    
    It also points that the history books that were available to me
    have told *male* history, i.e. wars and power plays/possession.
    Women have their own history!  Seeing the continuity with the past
    and present theories might give women the opportunity to build a
    future.

 	Isolation from women is a constant feeling in me. 
 	
 	I think that at adolescence we put our girl friends
 	in the back burner and concentrate our efforts in 
 	the competition for men. We often don't take the 
 	time to bond with each other or engage in the self
 	development of each other. Therefore, we never get
 	the opportunity to form the "big network" or the
 	the "buddy system" that men have. If we don't take
 	pride in who we are as people and if we constantly
 	try to please and socialize with men - then it's no 
 	surprise that we haven't developed this network or
 	developed ourselves as complete human beings.

 	In order to counteract this syndrome, I think we 
 	should encourage and continue the bonding that 
 	frequently takes place between girls in their
 	childhood based on common interests and not just "boys".
 	It's important that we admire other women and also
 	be admired for professional talent, personal integrity
  	and consistency, etc. In active socialization with
 	other adult women, we can take pride in our womanhood.
 	Some highly successful women, like Oprah Winfrey,
 	place topmost priority in spending time with 
 	their best friends (female). 

 	Within my immediate group, the women engineers
 	spend considerable time together discussing anything
 	from technical issues to sports, cars or fashion. Some
 	also take time to spend one major weekend day, every
 	so often, to go out and do something of mutual interest. 
 	It does wonders for my self-esteem as a female engineer.

 	The typical bonding that occur within ethnic groups,
 	such as blacks, or Indians or Chinese, serve a similar
 	purpose of self-identity and cultural affirmation. It 
 	seems, somehow, women are much more self-alienated and 
 	isolated from each other than these other groups.
 	
 	In conclusion, I'd like to say that women don't have to
 	be "satellites" in the solar orbit dominated by men -
 	they can form their own orbits and become planets or
 	the sun!

    Thanks Liz, this is a great topic.
    
    I have spent most of my life feeling isolated and am only now
    begining to connect with other women.  It is a very difficult
    thing for me to do and I have to keep working at it and discarding
    old unfounded pre-conceived notions about trusting/not-trusting
    women.  I have come to love women for who they are as people and
    to accept them with all their baggage - cuz I sure have a lot with
    me.
    
    Many times as I set with my terminal displaying =WM= I realize that
    I am not the only non-radical radical thinking woman around.
    
    I now try to read ONLY books written by women (there are a few
    exceptions).  I spent the first 28 years learning about man view
    of the world.  I then spent 7 years learning that there is another
    view of the world.  So I plan to spend the next 20+ years learning
    what woman's veiw of the world really is.
    
    _peggy
    
    		(-)
    		 |
    			Marilyn French said in "The Women's Room"
    
    			"You don't have to be alone to feel lonely"
    			(something like that)
    
    			We (women) need to talk and to listen to our
    			own and our sister's stories of our reality.
    
    

I, too, am someone who has spent a great deal of my life isolated from 
other women.  Learning to value women and learning to value myself has 
been part of the same process.

For a lot of my life I felt like a unique and somehow broken thing, like 
I was the only one of my kind on the planet.  I had contempt for what I
had been taught a "woman" was supposed to be. I wasn't it, and I wasn't
sure I respected the other people out there who were supposed to be it. 
Even my earliest feminism didn't make me really value "women" -- it just
meant that I felt I ought to be able to do whatever men did. 

Learning to recognize my need for women was a major life-tranformation,
and learning to make and maintain connections is a process I'm still 
working on.

Reading is invaluable.  Though not truly "personal", books can transcend
time and space to weave a connectedness of thought that for me is vital.
Like Peggy, I am tending to read more and more women authors.  I'm glad
to see the emergence of the anthology a tool for expressing and sharing
women's experiences.  I read _Sojourner_, a Boston-based monthly
newspaper for women, on a regular basis.  It makes me feel that even
though I don't get out as much as I would like to, I have some
connection to what's going on in the women's community.

Womannotes, too, has been important to me.  I became an active noter
during a particularly isolated period of my life, and it has helped me 
to hone my thinking and create a bond with a community of other women
out there that I value. 

I've also moved in the last year to Jamaica Plain, the lesbian ghetto of 
Boston, so I have the option of going to more woman-oriented events
than women in the suburbs or rural areas may have.  I do it whenever I 
can.  The W.I.T.C.H. lectures have been wonderful and thought-provoking.  
Women's music concerts are fun, and one can always go to Inman Square
for brunch at the S&S and a browse at New Words, the women's bookstore. 

I have women friends and lovers in my life who don't have competition 
from a husband or equivalent, which I suppose gives me some advantage 
over women who are trying to balance both.  I do, however, have 
children.  I could write a great deal about that subject, but one 
inescapable fact is that their needs constrain my life a great deal.
Single parenthood can create the ultimate in isolation, I think -- a 
situation where one must produce continual nurturing output with very
little input.  I still haven't resolved those conflicts, but I keep 
working at it...

    Toni Morrision writes about a rich gorlhood friendship in SULA:
    
     	... each had discovered years before that they were neither
       	white nor male, and that all freedom and triumph was forbidden
     	to them, they had set about creating something else to be.
     	Their meeting was fortunate, for it let them use each other
     	to grow on.
    
     	... They never quarelled, those two, the way some girlfriends
    	did over boys, or competed against each other for them. In
     	those days a compliment to one was a compliment to the other,
     	and cruelty to one was a challenge to the other..."
    
    
     	And the famous one on how friendship between two adult women
     	are conventionally trivialized:
    
     	... In college I was in a bar with my girl friends, and this
     	guy comes up and asks, "Are you girls alone?" My friend
     	had the best comeback: "No, we're together." ...

    I have to admit something that this note brought home to me --
    
    there are women I feel great about identifying with, and there are
    women I feel terrified about identifying with.
    
    I'm mostly drawn to bright, capable, successful, unconventional,
    technical, professional, independent women, although I enjoy lots of
    other women. (I know lots of women in this category, and can avoid
    thinking about this very much as a result.) 
                                                                       
    I still have a great deal of internalized mysogyny inside me about
    women who (yes, this is a judgement on my part, and not fair in
    the least) enjoy traditional women's roles, occupations, activities,
    AND (yes, this is a generalization) don't appear to ask for much
    more than the opportunity to please and receive approval from men,
    and who support the status quo to the max.
    
    Something inside me often wants to point to women in that group
    and scream "I'm not one of them, I'm not one of them, I'm not one
    of them!"  And I can talk sisterhood with the best of them.
    
    Am I saying this is good?  No.  It's embarrassing to admit how strongly
    I feel.  It's embarrassing to admit how judgemental I am capable
    of feeling.  But I realized that until I find a way to explore the
    terror inside of me that screams "I'm not one of them!  Don't mistake
    me for one of them!" there's no getting past it and on to a more
    rational approach.
            
    I'm going to start looking for the ways this comes up in day to
    day life.
    
    Do any others of you feel anything like this?
    
    Holly

    Good luck, Holly. I have very similar feelings. Twice in my life
    when I felt I was getting too techy, I swung a hard right. The first
    time was when I was 20 and invested in "charm school". How to be
    pretty, feminine, pleasing. I wanted to be taught professionalism.
    Relating was SUCH a challenge; I never did manage. The second time
    was when I was looking for extra money and I tried selling jewelry
    with a party plan. That income does NOT support anyone. So it was
    usually the part time job of a mother. The incentive programs had
    furs, diamonds and trips to Hawaii. And somehow, I couldn't relate
    at all. What these women wanted in life, and how they defined success
    didn't really click with me. And the "rallies" discouraged me. But
    as I look back, I recognize that this position was quite meaningful,
    fulfilling and rewarding to them. So, to each her own.
    
    I don't think you have to "identify" with women with totally different
    priorities, values or roles. You just have to respect them for their
    choices. Its kind of like being "pro-choice". For years, I was
    pro-abortion. I thought any girl under 18 should have one if she
    got pregnant. But this is a reflection of MY priorities and values,
    and not necessarily hers. I fight a hard battle to respect the female
    who chooses to put an infant's life and upbringing as top priority
    when she didn't intend to get pregnant. But its worth the effort
    if its one more person for me to learn from. Try to think of women
    with different roles as rounding out the vastness and versatility
    of sisterhood. Within our community, if we say "vive la difference",
    then we expand the excepted roles so that women can continue to
    have choices about what they want to do. I think those of us on
    the left need to try our best to respect our sisters to the right
    so that we can march forward together. The battles of abuse, child
    care, better birth control, research on women's diseases, are issues 
    that require our unity.
    
    (Forgive the generalization - exceptions duly noted:)
    
    Start with the basics: once a month, we all go through the same
    thing. Its an inescapable common denominator. I try to build my
    respect for all women from that point. 

    re: .12
    
    Ouch.  You did hit squarely on something important with this one,
    Holly.  
    
    When someone tells me "Gee, you're just like my mother," I want
    to scream.  I usually go home and cry.
    
    My mother is in many ways a wonderful woman.  But her idea of a
    goal in life is 20 quarts of canned peas at the end of a good gardening
    season, and I'm afraid everyone thinks my goals and amibitions are
    equally limited....
    
    And until I get over that, I'm not going to be able to forge a decent
    relationship with my mother, either.
    
    --bonnie
    

    Ever so gently I want to remind you that gardening, canning and
    keeping a home is not something to be ashamed of.  We will never
    be liberated until we recognize the fact that the 'traditional'
    role of a woman is one to be valued *if* we choose to lead that
    role!

RE: .-1, .-2
    
    Thank you, thank you for expressing my sentiments when I read Bonnie's
    note.
    
    My mother made a career out of raising three children in a family
    environment where no one doubted the fact that we were first and
    foremost in her list of priorities.  She pinched pennies when it was
    necessary, was always there to wipe our tears away, she made us laugh,
    and took an interest in everything we did (no matter how
    un-interesting)... well, the list goes on and I'm sure many of you
    could add to it, remembering your own mothers. 
    
    I've chosen a different path, but I've never felt my choice was somehow
    better or more important than hers.  I've often wondered whether she
    perhaps found MORE meaning in her chosen career than I have in mine:
    after all, what could be more important, a bigger challenge, or a
    better job satisfaction than molding three people into useful,
    contributing human beings! Selling a couple computers tends to pale by
    comparison. 
    
    For someone to tell me I'm like my mother is a supreme compliment!
    
    							Pat

    re: .17
    
    I think I could agree with you if I felt that my mother in any way
    CHOSE the life she was living.  
    
    She did a wonderful job, as it sounds likeyour mother did, too. As I'm
    sure most of our mothers did.
    
    BUT MY MOTHER HAD NO CHOICE.  Economics and society forced this
    life of happy domesticity on her. 
    
    How can I value something I see as forced on her by a blind
    society?
    
    She faced a lot of hardships heroically, and while there's a lot
    of virtue to that, I can't feel that cheerful conformity to that
    kind of near-slavery is the best path for life.  I'm going to try
    to build a better life if it kills me -- and times like this I
    feel like it might. 
    
    When my firstborn was a baby, and more than one relative said with
    satisfaction that now I'd stop gallivanting around the world (I
    had left Bozeman to go to school in Utah) and settle down like
    everybody else.  How am I supposed to value something that is said
    to mean the end of my goals, my dreams, all adventure and joy and
    the rewards of dealing with the worlds? 
    
    My own trek through motherhood is teaching me some of the joys
    of having a child, but it isn't impressing me with the holy
    status of motherhood.  It's a difficult job but it's only a
    job; the joys of my children have come more from being their
    friend than from any sacredness of staying home devoting myself
    to meeting their every need.
    
    And you know what?  They seem to be happier for it.  The youngest
    is too young to know yet, but the eldest seems glad for the
    freedom to be herself.  She doesn't have to meet my standards
    because what she decides to do with her life doesn't mean I was a
    failure as a mother or as a person.  I raised her to make her own
    choices, and if I don't like those choices -- well, life's like
    that. 

    And please don't tell me I "should" feel something else.  It's
    not a productive way to help someone who has confessed to feeling
    unacceptable feelings.  I didn't say I was in the right, I
    didn't say you should feel this way, and telling me how nobly
    your mother faced the kind of suffering I abhor is not the
    way to change my mind.
    
    --bonnie

    gentle nudge:
    
    much as i'm interested in relationships with and perceptions of
    mothers, i'd like this note to whether _you_ feel isolated from
    other women, and if so, how you work through it. (if you'd like
    to continue the "mom" discussion, could you start another note?)
    
    thanks
    liz
    basenoter
        

    re: .19
    
    Liz, the reason I feel isolated from not all women but a certain
    class of women -- for very unfair reasons, as I admitted -- is
    because of my unresolved problems with my mother. 
    
    I am still, after 34 years, unable to relate to almost any woman
    who reminds me of my mother and unable to accept the positive
    aspects of being like her. 
    
    I don't know how I'm working through it.  I'm stuck.  
    
    I know it's unfair.  I know it's cutting me off from knowing a lot
    of wonderful strong women who could add a lot to my life. But I
    still avoid "only mothers" like the plague. 
    
    I can't believe they chose their lives freely any more than
    my mother did. 

    Do you still think that's unrelated to the topic?   If so,
    I will start a new note.
    
    --bonnie
    
    
    

    I also hope that people can hear what I (and I think Bonnie) were
    saying.
    
    We can value and respect women who make traditional choices.  We
    can hear about their hardships and wonder if we could have managed
    our lives as well in their shoes.
    
    On a completely different, almost irrational level there is a place
    of inside me which is terrified that I might be mistaken for (and
    treated as) a woman whose satisfaction in life comes from approval
    from men and fulfiling the traditional role.  I'm only just being
    able to admit that these feelings even exist.  I would never
    consciously act on them...but...if they are in there they *are*
    going to affect my unconscious reactions to people and situations.
                                       
    I don't feel good about having these feelings towards other women.
    It's only by bringing them up into the light that I can start to
    work with them.
    
    In trying to figure out what this all means, I realized that it had
    something to do with power.  I am terrified about being mistaken for a
    member of a  group of people I perceive as less powerful and
    independent.
                  
    The following is very general and is not meant as a generalization!
          
    I wonder if this ambivalence is anything like the ambivalence some men
    seem to feel.  They can value and respect women (some more than
    others), but some of them would be terrified at being mistaken for a
    woman or perceived as a man who shared women's interests.  As long as
    they are clearly seen as part of the dominant group, they can value and
    respect women.  
    
    In a similar way, as long as I'm perceived as strong and independent,
    I feel full of respect and value for almost all women.  If the
    boundaries get blurred, and I find myself being perceived as someone
    who must be living only for male approval and traditional fulfillments,
    I lose that feeling of valuing all other women and slip into that
    place of terror that silently screams "I'm not one of them". 
                                        
    I think it's all about empowerment.
    

    	It might be helpful to point out here that many/most of the
    	"jobs" that have been considered "traditionally women's jobs"
    	have been undervalued *because* they were traditionally done
    	by women (regardless of the difficulty or importance of the
    	job.)
    
    	One of the best examples I can think of is the nursing profession.
    	Many nurses go through rigorous Bachelor of Science programs
    	to become nurses, and out in the world, they have traditionally
    	received comparitively low salaries and very little respect
    	(when you consider what it took to finish their degree programs.)
    
    	As a result, fewer and fewer women are willing to go through
    	the Bachelor of Science in Nursing (and choose Bachelor programs
    	that offer better career opportunities.)  As I understand it,
    	there is already a serious shortage of nurses in some areas
    	(which you would *think* would drive up the salary ranges,
    	since nurses are in demand.)  
    
    	My understanding is that the salaries are *not* coming up
    	quickly enough to give many young women the incentive to become
    	nurses.  The old stigma of its being a "woman's job" is just
    	too hard to overcome.
    
    	Staying home fulltime is not my cup of tea (and never has been.)
    	Perhaps I am "limited" in my ability to appreciate the art of
    	fulltime homemaking.  As much as I adore my son, I've always
    	liked the combination of supporting us and enjoying life with
    	him during my time away from work (although, when he was very
    	small, I actually had technical jobs where he was allowed to
    	accompany me to work quite frequently, which we both loved.
    	At the TV studio where I worked as a camera operator, he was
    	hired as a frequent child performer.  At two other television
    	jobs I had in subsequent years, I was a video engineer in an
    	area *by myself* and was allowed to bring him in as long as I
    	did my work correctly and efficiently in his presence, which
    	I did.  But that's another story.)  :-)

    	There are now MEN who say that they wish they had the option
    	of staying home fulltime.  When we have equality, hopefully
    	the numbers of fulltime homemakers will be fairly equal, but
    	in any case, there will *always* be some people who prefer
    	that kind of life to having a career.  
    
    	How many of our Mothers would have preferred careers to being
    	fulltime homemakers is something we'll never know.  Sure, some
    	of them were forced into it by our culture (and that is sad.)
    
    	However, I'm sure that some of them wouldn't have had it any
    	other way (even if they had been born in the 80's instead of
    	the 20's or the 30's.)  I think we need to recognize that
    	homemaking is a valid option for women *and* men who are given
    	the opportunity to do so (and we should allow that ANY job,
    	whether it is homemaking or computers, can be meaningless and
    	unfulfilling if we let it be.)
    
    	A woman (or a man) who chooses fulltime homemaking could have
    	talents/abilities/interests that would make what many other
    	people do look pretty boring, after all.

    re: .22
    
    A good point, Suzanne -- and I notice that around here there is
    heavy recruiting aimed at convincing high school girls what a
    rewarding career nursing is, but none at all aimed at luring the
    high school boy with a bent for nurturing into the nursing
    profession.  (Incidentally, the only nurse I ever knew personally
    was a male Vietnam vet -- the sexual discrimination he faced daily
    on the job was incredible.  Patients of both sexes refused to let
    him minister to them, he was passed over for promotions . . . all
    the stuff we're used to being on the receiving end of.)
    
    But I don't think the undervaluing of traditionally women's
    professions is enough to account for the kind of reaction I'm
    talking about.
    
    On one level a woman who willingly chooses to stay home with her
    children and family is a threat to me because she has given
    ammunition to the people who are trying to tell me that *I* should
    stay home. They say things like, "Linda [neighbor, not a DECcie]
    was a software engineer and she decided to stay home with her
    kids.  Nothing can replace a mother's love, you know.  Does money
    mean so much to you that you will let strangers raise your son?" 

    Yes, people do still say things like this.  Mostly other women.
    
    I don't believe that nothing can replace a mother's love. For one
    thing, there's a father's love.  For another, many "strangers" are
    more patient and better trained in child-raising than I will ever
    be. 
    
    Nor do I think a mother's love is expressed only by staying home
    baking cookies.  I am what I am.  I give my children from my
    strength. 
    
    I say this.  I argue it passionately.  
    
    But the more we value traditional women's work, the more guilty I
    feel about pursuing my career, no matter how rewarding I find it.
    The more I feel that both women's liberation and traditional
    society agree that I should be at home and that I'm failing both
    my sisters and my own family.  I'm not doing woman's most
    important work. 
    
    --bonnie

    	RE: .23
    
    	> But the more we value traditional women's work, the more
    	> guilty I feel about pursuing my career, no matter how
    	> rewarding I find it.  The more I feel that both women's
    	> liberation and traditional society agree that I should be
    	> at home and that I'm failing both my sisters and my own
    	> family.  I'm not doing woman's most important work.
    
    	Bonnie, what ever made you think that by valuing some of
    	the traditional occupations of women (such as homemaking,)
    	anyone is suggesting that YOU should be doing it?
    
    	"Women's most important work" is whatever you decide it is
    	(for yourself.)
    
    	We shouldn't need to denounce fulltime homemaking in order
    	to keep from feeling guilty about not doing it.
    
    	If a woman *chooses* to be a fulltime homemaker (and has the
    	opportunity to do so,) that is her decision and should have
    	nothing to do with what you or I decide to do.
    
    	Unfortunately, it sounds as if (perhaps) some folks have been
    	using the argument against careers_for_women to make themselves
    	feel less guilty for NOT having one.  (I'm not trying to BLAME
    	anyone, including you, for having adopted either of these positions.)
    
    	I just don't think that either of these attitudes is necessary.

    I can understand very well what Bonnie is saying re.23, as I
    have been grappling with trying to understand my feelings concerning
    homemakers vs. career, and have been feeling the confusion more
    and more since I got engaged as it seems (and I do repeat "it seems")
    that people's attitude towards me have change, like they see less
    of a reason for me to be contining college for example and speak
    more of future family topics and less of anything else.
    So, when I see women as homemakers I realize that my "anger"
    is not actually anger but acute FEAR. I keep thinking that
    if their way becomes the accepted way then I will fall into
    their routine, I'll be discussing the kids and finish school
    maybe but only as a pasttime to get me out of the house. 
    It is not a good feeling, but nevertheless it is there. And
    as a result I choose to isolate myself from homemakers although
    I don't HAVE to choose their path I can't help thinking that if
    the trend to stay home returns then ending up like that
    is inescapable.
    HOpe this made some sort of sense...
    
    Fran
    

    Part of the reason we may isolate from other women is a fear that
    we do not have a full grip on what we want out of life.  We are
    torn between an instinct to be a homemaker or a full time mother
    and an intellect for wanting a career. 
    
    Choices are not always easy when they conflict with some inner calling
    and this has been the reason I have felt isolated from women in
    the 60's and now.  When my children were young I had to work...I
    didn't want to...I had to and I wanted to earn a living wage for
    the work I did.  Traditional homemakers made me feel guilty and
    the world wasn't prepared to pay me a living wage.  Now I have lost
    my incentive for work and I want to talk about herb gardens,
    grandchildren, food and interior decorations.  But women are telling
    me that career is fulfillment.
    
    I have talked a lot about instinct and hormones and I believe it
    very strongly...I think nesting instinct is in most of us and that
    is what some strong career women are afraid of.  They are afraid
    of themselves...not the woman that wants to go back to being a
    homemaker or mother.

    For 20 years I spent my days taking care of four children.....what
    a wonderful "Profession" I had then.  My free time was spent going
    to concerts with women, I also belonged to a great books group,
    sang with a musical group and did many more things.  Now that my
    children are adults I decided to try a new "Profession" the pay
    for services rendered is sure different but the rewards are the
    same.
    
    Anne

        I've always felt isolated, from everyone.  Both women and men,
        but the feeling of isolation differed depending upon what sex
        I felt isolated from.  It didn't feel bad to be isolated from
        men because they were "supposed" to be different from me, and
        I really didn't care as much.  I could learn to be just a
        casual friend with men and not worry about how they thought of
        me. 

        With women, I always worried about how I fit in (well I don't
        worry as much now, but the feeling pops back now and again).
        I seldom felt I had anything in common with other women.  I
        don't like to shop, was never ga-ga over men, never knew who
        the latest rock group was, and I did well in school (which was
        never "ok to do" until college).  I still often feel isolated
        even with the technical women I work with.  I feel that I
        don't have that common base of experience that all women but
        me must have.  I worry that other women don't like me because
        I'm different (or they like me but think I'm strange, and I'll
        never be really close to them because of that). 

        Gee, this sounds so paranoid.  Don't think I always have these
        feelings.  It's worse when I'm around "traditional" women. I
        can't stand those parties where the men separate from the
        women.  The women talk about kids and shopping and cooking. I
        feel strange because I'm the only woman who hangs out with the
        men and talk work and sports.   In my neighborhood, I get
	to know the people who work in their yards.  So few women work
	outside, that I know most of their husbands better.

        So I often feel isolated, and I don't know what to do.  I've
        recently tried to make the effort to go talk to the women I
        work near more often.  But then I feel guilty about not
        getting work done.   I know that most of my problem is a
	lack of self-confidence, but it's strange that even though
	I feel confident about my abilities as a person I don't
	feel confident with my role as a woman.  I don't know
	what the role is, and how to play it.

	...Karen

    re: .28
    
    Gee, Karen, maybe we should get together.  Every word of what you
    just said so well could describe me, too.   
    
    I feel confident of myself as a person but I don't feel confident
    of myself as a woman.
    
    And the least confident area of my womanhood is the part of
    me that is a mother.  
    
    Perhaps it's true that I'm afraid of myself, as Joyce suggested.
    As I said earlier, I do feel personally threatened by traditional
    women, and it's a truism of psychology that when you feel
    threatened by someone else, it's almost always something in
    yourself you're afraid of.
    
    But that's not the question.  The question is, what do women who
    feel this way do to work through the isolation that results? How
    do you get beyond this, or through it?  How do you get in touch
    with yourself to feel sufficiently confident to accept that
    someone could freely choose to do what society attempts to force
    you to do? 

    --bonnie
    p.s.  Karen, I especially identified with the part about talking
    sports with the men instead of kiddies with the women.  I was on
    the hit list with a couple of my neighbors for a while because I
    talked to their husbands at parties and while I mowed our lawn,
    and they thought I was after their men!  Fortunately they've both
    moved away.... 

    Karen,
    
    Like Bonnie RS I would have to say that what you are writing sounds
    a lot like me!
    
    The part I particularly identify with is the problem of not being
    comfortable with or relating to some kinds of women. I went to an
    all women's college - which I loved by the way. But I have always
    had a problem with relating to the type of woman who was in the
    'poplular' on 'in' clique. 
    
    I was very uncomfortable the two years I lived in an eastern Mass
    town where most of the women I met appeared to have immaculately
    decorated houses kept immaculately clean, and who dressed and wore
    their hair so well.
    
    Over the years I have found that I tend to make the best friends
    with people who are themselves a bit unusual and who are proud of
    it....or as I tell my kids...we're all weird, and we just have to
    learn to live with it! :-)
    
    Bonnie

Geez, I didn't realize there were so many of me. I only recently came to
realize that there were a few others, but not this many. I always figured
I was this way from growing up with all brothers, in a neighborhood full
of boys. Then I went to a technical college with a 10:1 male:female
ratio (:-)). Even now I work with all men and my best friends have always
been men. I've always been out of my comfort zone when I'm with most
women. I'm much more at ease talking about the Celtics than I am talking
about clothes or hair or kids or whatevers. At segregated parties I almost
always end up talking with the men since I seem to have more in common.
It used to bother me quite a bit that I couldn't relate but I finally figured 
out that I can't change me so I've just learned to live with it. If people
want to think I'm odd (which they do, and I am :-)) then that's their problem.

Jenna

    RE:  795.28   CADSYS::SULLIVAN

    Thank you, Karen!!!

    I've been following this string with hopeful interest.  I hadn't
    replied  yet because I was afraid that my isolation was too extreme to
    be discussed  in this forum.  Your reply took courage!

    I've always felt isolated from women and men except with my closest
    friends. I worried about how I fit, whether I had something in common
    with them.   I've made a lot of nontraditional choices all throughout
    my life and the  isolation didn't feel as bad when I was growing up.  I
    was busy "doing my  thing" and I wasn't about to get caught up in the
    problems I saw my peers struggle with.  So here I am, 35 years later,
    and now I will work through the isolation and issues around being part
    of a community.

    What to do?  I started with individual and group therapy.  I can't
    change  my behavior or how I feel if I don't know about it.  Most of my
    actions  were unconscious, they worked fine for me as a child when
    isolation was  important, now they get in the way of my adult life. 
    Once I learned more  about myself, I began to see some of the patterns. 
    Once I learned about  the patterns, I began to explore ways to change
    the patterns.  It's a  proces of translating unconscious feeling into
    conscious knowledge, and  then using my intellect and will to change
    the patterns.  It's not an easy  or quick solution, I couldn't have
    done it on my own.  That's one of the  reasons for inventing therapists 
    :-)  :-)  :-)

    I am getting involved with women's groups.  The first few times I went
    I  felt *really* isolated, I didn't want to go back.  I told a friend
    about my  reaction and she said that it takes several meetings before
    someone feels  welcome.  After about six meetings I'm beginning to feel
    like I belong.   At the last meeting folks asked me why I missed the
    last one.  When I got  ready to leave they reminded me not to schedule
    trips to Vermont on the  third Saturday of the month.  I think that
    means they see me as belonging :-)

    At work I felt isolated from the technical women.  I work in the same 
    building with VMS engineering and I see lots of competent women every
    day.   I felt good about being around that much woman energy but did
    not believe  that I was worthy of acceptance, even though I have
    excellent technical  skills (I know because others have told me). 
    Somehow I didn't fit.  Then I  went to a VMS Womens meeting and
    discovered that they had similiar issues.   Now I'm apt to recognize
    someone from the meeting, say hello, and even ask  their name and where
    they work.  I believe this isolation resulted from  past work
    experience.  I was the "walk on water" contributor at my old job.  I
    knew how to succeed at work using a traditional model:  being an 
    independent, all-knowing, techincal wizard.  I changed jobs to get into 
    Digital and to expand my areas of expertise.  I knew very little about
    VMS  and had to start as a beginner, after 8 years of being the guru.

    In my latest project I have abandoned the traditional model and have 
    embraced the Hindu "soft belly" approach.  I expose my vulnerable
    parts,  like my ignorance of operating system details, and then solicit
    help from  the technical folks who know the answers.  This was a hard
    step to make but  I knew I couldn't pull it off based on my knowledge
    alone.  Now I'm  discovering the warm feelings of belonging to the
    group (they're all men)  and I don't have to pretend to anyone other
    that a conscientous worker who  respects and admires the folks she
    works with, and knows she has a lot to  learn.

    Hope this helps.

    Nancy

    I'm another isolated-from-everybody type; I felt equally ill at
    ease with just about anyone I didn't know, and it took decades to
    get to where I can deal with it. Oddly enough, I never saw it as
    a role problem of *mine* - I just kept wondering wistfully why there
    never seemed to be anybody else who wanted to do the things *I*
    wanted to do. (I found out that none of them live in Wyoming; most
    of them work for New England computer companies!)
    
    Re .32: Great note. And I love your node name...
    
    -b

    
    I dont feel generally isolated from people, I do feel a bit insecure
    when I'm put in a whole new group of people, but I'm lucky and have
    afew good friends that will always be friends, and a very good
    relationship with my SO. But there's one thing I do really identify
    with here, and that's Bonnie Reinke's comment about women with perfect
    hairstyles, homes etc ! Men, I can usually get on with OK, and other
    women who show a bit of vunerability, but give me a confident woman
    and it takes me ages to feel at ease with them ! It just seems to
    bring out all my insecurity and I worry about what they think of
    me. I also find myself looking up to these people and idealizing
    them a bit.
    
    	The ironic thing is that I think I sometimes give this impression
    to other people ! I didn't really realise this till I started to
    go out with Steve, who says he was attracted to me because I seemed
    confident, independent, and a bit aloof. It's lucky really that
    he liked the affectionate, insecure little me that lurks underneath!
    
    Anyway back to the main question, I have felt isolated in the past,
    but not now. That's set me to wonder what it is that has changed
    things for me, and I think the answer probably is that I managed
    to find a few very good friends who know me and like me for me.
    At school I was always one of the brightest in the class, I don't
    have any brothers and sisters, and I always wanted a `best friend'.
    I got my best friend when I was 14ish and she lasted a long while,
    unfortunately I've lost touch now. But the real turning point was
    University, I got into Cambridge and it was great, it was the first
    time I felt I had lots of people like me around ! Then there came
    work and again I felt isolated, I joined a group (Rotaract) and
    got to know some people who are still good friends, but still I
    felt they weren't `my' type of people. Until I met Steve (at Rotaract)
    and started going out with him (the two odd ones paired up!) and
    as I said, I feel very happy now. 
    
    Anyway I must dash out now....
    going out with him

    re: .32
    
    I find it rather difficult to believe that it's going to take
    years of therapy to learn to be friends with women who don't
    have careers.
    
    And joining women's groups isn't going to help any -- I already
    get along well with women who join women's groups and participate
    in notes files.
    
    I was going to join my church's Sarah Circle, but they meet at
    10:30 a.m. on Tuesdays and that conflicts with a program team
    meeting.  
    
    Come to think of it, I'm not even sure how to go about meeting a
    stay-at-home mother to talk to, let alone one who shares enough
    common interests to become friends with. 
    
    --bonnie

    I guess I recognize differences between myself and other women,
    but don't feel isolated by these differences.  I wouldn't chose
    the life my mother had, but I don't feel any less proud of her choices
    or skills.  Nor do I submerge myself in a technoid social scene,
    being lucky enough to have a best friend who works very hard at
    raising kids at home and has no problems with my life being different.
    I feel sort of bad I can't offer any advice to people who find these 
    sorts of things harder and more complicated in their own particular
    cases and isolating.
    
    The only thing I can say is if you do want to feel less isolated
    from women is to have patience with yourself.  And in some cases,
    when you find yourself running into a brick wall of fear or
    disapproval, look around and see if you can't find a gate.
    I mean, if your mother's life accomplishments appall you, maybe
    the gate through that is that her work was women's work which is
    undervalued, and you don't want to have your Self be undervalued.
    I know some of us are physically isolated from each other, so 
    perhaps in this case the gate's a tiny keyhole through to each other
    that we have here in notes.  [Please, I'm not picking or answering
    anyone in particular here, but sort of borrowing many examples.
    Forgive my blundering keyboard, and remember that I do know your
    own case is much harder than my simplifications here, and excuse
    my presumption if you have the energy.]
    
    If it's any help, remember, that we've got such variety here, that
    there's bound to be at least one other person who agrees with you,
    and more who'll support you at least in thought.
    
    It was this notesfile that started me off nine months ago to finding
    I could treasure any women's Self, whether or not we were close.  
    Frankly, I'm pretty sure I used to be a bit scared.  It's all your
    credit!  I only tried to offer my small advice, because, well, it's
    almost as if I'm in debt to you all.
    
	    				Now, back to being crabby!!!  :-)
    
    

    This isn't directly related to the recent string, but since I made
    the original remark here, it seems like the best place for a
    clarification. 
    
    My remark about 20 jars of peas has been totally misunderstood.
    Since it keeps getting thrown back at me in other contexts, let me
    explain the analogy I was trying to draw. It wasn't that canning
    peas is a bad thing! 
    
    The work of keeping a house and raising children provides
    tremendous amounts of immediate gratification.  You cook a good
    meal with a pretty cake at the end and everybody heaps praise and
    love on you; you take your children to the playground and you
    get to see the radiance on their faces and listen to their
    shreiks of laughter.
    
    It's a slow, mellow, rich life; you go with the flow of the
    sesasons -- in summer you barbecue on the deck and in the winter
    you slide in the snow on the hill in back of your house.
    
    But what happened to my mother, and what happened to me when I was
    home with Kat, and what had happened to the dozens of housewives I
    counselled when I was working with my university's program to help
    older women reentering school, was that they depended so heavily
    on the immediate feedback and rewards that they lost the skills
    involved in long-term planning and delayed gratification.  
    
    They were so used to being praised immediately for doing the right
    thing that even the several weeks it can take to write a term
    paper was a difficult and unrewarding wasteland for them.  To
    think of four years of college followed by four years of medical
    school followed by four years of internship becomes almost
    impossible.  You have to learn it all over again. 
    
    That's what I meant when I said my mother's idea of a long-term
    goal is canning 20 jars of peas this summer.  (Freezing them,
    actually -- she's not opposed to improved technology.)  I didn't
    mean there was anything wrong with the goal, only that she has
    lost her ability to see beyond that, to think of what she's going
    to be doing five years in the future, to take small steps to
    change things. 
    
    She loves to sew, makes beautiful stuffed toys, has always managed
    money very well, and would, I think, like to open a toy store.
    But she doesn't even know how to begin thinking about how to
    decide if it's possible, so she makes toys for the kids' birthdays
    and enjoys the smiles on their faces, and when she has dinner the
    inner angers and unhappinesses and disappointments she can't admit
    twist her stomach up with ulcerative colonitis. 

    There's nothing wrong with just canning peas or making toys for
    your grandchildren.  But it's not EVERYTHING.  And no amount of
    twisting will make it everything when you want something more.
    It winds up twisting you.
    
    And it wouldn't bother me so damned much if I didn't love her
    so damned much.
    
    --bonnie    

    
    
    Bonnie,
    
    I disagree a little with your statement about women not being able
    to handle deferred-gratification.
    
    I started full time day college 11 years after I graduated from High School
    (I had taken night courses off and on for about 3 years).  The year
    after I started the University started a program for returning students
    (aimed at the older woman).  Many of the woman who returned throught
    that program I got to know - I was the Women's Center Co-ordinator
    for 2 years).  None of them showed any sign of what you described,
    then again most of them had children who were teenagers or older.
    
    Because I was not in the program I never felt very close to these
    women though we spentime talking and sharing experiences.  One of
    the problems I had then and still have now is that I will continue
    working or doing a task without praise simply because I enjoy the
    doing part.  Many people don't understand this attitude.  I think
    that many more women act this way then do men and I am not sure
    why.
    
    This rambled - 
    
    _peggy
    
    		(-)
    		 |
    			We acknowledge the power of the Goddess
    			each spring - we plant the seeds - so
    			we can prepare and store the food each
    			autum - for the winter when She withdraws
    			back into Herself to rest.
    
    
    
    		(-)
    		 |
    			I have seen the Goddess in all the women
    			who I know - this has opened up my eyes to
    			the beauty and worth of all Women - including
    			myself.
    

    re: .38
    
    I wonder if the age of the women made any difference?  Most
    of the women had children who were in school -- grade schoolers
    and young teenagers.  I'd say the average age was around 30.
    
    I wonder if having seen one's children grow up and become their
    own adults changes one's perspective.
    
    --bonnie

    	Bonnie,
    
    	In regards to your comments on immediate gratification (and how
    	fulltime homemakers may become overly dependent on it)...
    
    	There are many careers outside the home that consist largely
    	of immediate gratification.  Mine, for instance.
    
    	In my 6+ years with DEC, at least 90% of my working life has
    	been spent moving my energy from one broken computer to another.
    	Last week, I involved myself with 55 VAXen (that were broken,
    	malfunctioning, burping, puking or otherwise acting up in a
    	manner sufficiently disturbing to have their "owners" call
    	Colorado for some hardware assistance.)
    
    	When you move from one problem to the next (all week long,
    	all month long, all year long -- year after year,) I guess
    	it would be easy to assume that immediate gratification
    	becomes "all there is" (and that one could forget how to
    	plan on a long term basis.)
    
    	When I passed the Technical Proficiency Review Board last
    	September, it was the result of 18 months of study and
    	preparation.  I didn't find it difficult at all to turn
    	from "problem-to-problem mode" to "long-term mode."  (I did
    	both at the same time, actually.)

    	Being a fulltime homemaker has its ups and downs, I'm sure
    	(like your job does, and my job does.)  As much as I love
    	my job, sometimes I feel a little less than thrilled with
    	some of the day-to-day things I have to do for DEC.  That's
    	normal.
    
    	Overall, I wouldn't trade DEC for *anything* else I could do
    	to make a living!  It's not always a thrill a minute, but
    	it's the most rewarding and fulfilling fulltime occupation
    	I've ever had.
    
    	Some/many fulltime homemakers feel the same way about what
    	*they* do.  I say, more power to them.  If they enjoy it and
    	feel fulfilled, who am I to say that anything else would be
    	better for them.

    I am catching up on a back-log of 800+ notes, and the nice thing
    about that is you get "complete" conversations in one go.
    
    Back to the question of isolation: like many women in this note,
    I feel isolated both from men and from women. This feeling of isolation
    stemms from a "travelling childhood", and has been with me all my
    life. Some women have mentioned trying to break through this isolation
    and I would like to mention that there is an alternative, which
    is to decide that:"I am isolated, but that's what I like". 
    
    I prefer books and animals to people in general, and the very few
    very good friends I have (my husband, my mother, my step-daughter,
    my daughter, and one girl-friend) are amply sufficient for my needs.
    
    Being isolated, if you like it, is as valid a choice as making super-
    human efforts to communicate with people you don't really have that
    much in common with...
    
    Having spoken, I retreat to my den.    
    
    Joana
    

    re: .41
    
    Joana, thank you for taking time to remind us that we don't need
    to be social butterflies, and that we need time with ourselves. 
    
    --bonnie

    Scarcely the "social butterfly", I sense the isolation from women
    greatest in my professional hours; indeed, I have to spend many of
    my reading hours and hours I'd rather be reading  :-)  in compensating
    for this paucity of women peers.  It would be enlightening to
    be isolated from men for a brief moment, and I freely admit to having
    nurtured a crabby style to protect me from being Mom at the office and
    a deliberate insouciance about household dirt to protect me from
    being Mom to my various and numerous roommates.  [Mom being the
    one person in the family never allowed isolation from other family
    members, by the usual rules.]