Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    I was struck by the comment about "what kind of man wants a woman
    who's saddled with an ailing mother...." or some such.
    
    My answer? The *right* one.
    
    The mother-in-law joke being one of the most over-used 
        <aaaack! I can't think of the word!!>
    (thingys) of sexism, I think a guy who would appreciate these
    women for who each is, is the perfect answer.
    
    There *are* men who wouldn't give 2 hoots about the situation, if
    the person involved was someone they cared for. Too bad we sometimes
    can't see that. 
    
    RE: The situation in .0
    
    It's a toughie. I was interested that the woman could actually *live*
    with her mother. If it were me and *my* mother, the dishes wouldn't've
    lasted a week!
    
    Dawn
    

    When I started to read the article, I thought it would be one of
    those stories about a "rising young star" who becomes a mother and
    gives up her career. So it was a pleasant surprise to discover what
    it was really about. This sounds like a very difficult situation
    -- the article does a good job of showing how torn the young woman
    feels. Does anyone have ideas about how to make similar situations
    more of a "win" for everyone? 

    It's a beautiful article about a choice we may all have to face
    one day. Are we ready for that? 
    
    Thanks for entering this article. It's very thought provoking (sad
    thoughts, but we also need them).
    
    Joana

    I thought it was a great article and loved the interjection of the
    word "nurturing."  Something we forget all too often.  I know for
    certain that in our family we will be facing that same crossroads
    soon.  Among us children, we are beginning talks around this whole
    scenario.  What better timing than for me to have been able to have
    read this article. Realizing the impact that parents nurtured by their
    children on the life style has given me something to think about
    in terms of where I want to be X years from now at DEC, at home,
    at career, at life.
    
    I can say and our family agrees, it is a natural process of the
    family unit as a whole to nurture those who nurtured you. 

    I think the story idealizes the situation.  My feeling is "Great
    if it works, but what happens if resentment builds up so much for
    the daughter over time that she becomes abusive, first in subtle
    ways and later on perhaps even in overt ways?".
    
    People can survive the neediness of little children because they
    know that each day brings a little more independence on the part
    of the child.
    
    I couldn't do it with my mother.  I'd be a candidate for the funny
    farm in about 2 weeks.  If I was frustrated and angry all the time,
    and my job performance suffered, it would be a 'lose-lose' situation
    all the way around.  
    
    Most of us have not been brought up to be sacrificial.  We don't
    have the large homes that allowed extended families to live together
    (in many cases) 50 years ago.  We also don't have communities and
    families nearby that would give us much-needed support.
    
    I think the woman in the story could have found (bought?) more support
    such as home health aides for some weekends and evenings so that
    her career would not have suffered.                       
    
    Holly
    

    An excellent article, even if it *is* a bit on the up side. The
    questions it raises are some that we're all going to have to deal with
    eventually, if not for ourselves then for society. [Tangent: Some of
    the presidential candidates are running around screaming that we have
    to have more children *now* so as to provide a "support" generation to
    take care of *us* when we get old - one of the most dehumanizing things
    I've read since the Final Solution.] 
    
    The woman in the article had a number of advantages, including a
    good salary and a mother who was still able to function some of
    the time. If the tale had involved a single-income family with several
    children, living in a tiny apartment or a house trailer someplace,
    and if the aging parent had more serious disabilities, it would
    (make that *could* - there are a few saints out there) turn into
    a major tragedy.

    I find myself torn by this whole question. My family has always
    valued independence, and most of my relatives lived to a ripe old
    age in pretty good health, and in their own houses. While I am thankful
    for this, and pray it remains so, I realize that it wouldn't take
    much to change this picture; and if the day comes when my parents
    need care, I hope I will be able to provide it, lovingly. 
    
    I'm beginning to think that it wouldn't be a bad idea if we began
    fostering the concept of "community nurturing" as a positive thing
    in this society. Halfway houses, etc. are cropping up here and there,
    but most of them are for a specific classification of people: the
    mildly retarded, or outpatients from mental hospitals, or the elderly,
    or some other limited group. I've only read of a few cases where
    attempts were made to match elderly people with foster children,
    say, to give each the benefit of the other's presence. (Note: This
    does not mean requiring the older people to take full charge of
    the kids, but merely that they live in close enough proximity to
    lend a sense of "extended family".)

    Personal note: Keeping in mind the Golden Rule, I'd like to mention
    that my preference would be to live alone, even - nay, *especially*
    - when I'm a crotchety old woman. If I have health problems too
    severe to permit that, I would seriously consider opting out. (Yeah,
    I know, I can say that *now*...) This is all to say that I neither
    expect nor particularly want anybody to take me in - but it's still
    much nicer to have the choice!

    I, personally, think that the woman in the article is wasting her
    life by trying to care for her mother all the time, and by having
    to give up some of the rewards (trips, dating, overnight guests,
    spontaneous outings) of financial and adult independance.  I believe
    that we owe our parents a certain amount - frequent visits, financial
    help if possible - but I don't believe that anybody should give
    up their entire lifestyle for anybody else.
    
    My brother and I have actually already faced this situation.  Last
    year, at the age of 74, my mother suffered an aneurysm of the brain.
     She almost died (in fact 90% of all people who have them do), but
    she managed to survive.  But, she survived with brain damage.  At
    first, since she was slow in recovering her speech, it was difficult
    to tell exactly how much brain damage.  
    
    She had always been unusually healthy, very independant, and the
    type of person who was always taking care of others and trying to
    make everybody else comfortable.  Everyone who knew her had just
    expected her to live to be 90.  Suddenly she was almost completely
    helpless and needed round the clock care.  My brother, who is single
    and had been living at home with her, insisted on trying to take
    care of her himself, as well as working a full time job.  She lived
    with him for about 3 months.  After the first week we knew it was
    a mistake.  The brain damage had made her extremely senile.  She
    was apt to do anything and had to be watched all the time.  My brother
    hired two different nursing students to stay with her while he worked.
     During this time, one of my mother's closest friends verbally attacked
    me about not doing "enough" for my mother.  Oddly enough, my brother
    and I have no hard feelings at all about this situation, but my
    mother's friend and I have never come to an understanding about
    this.
    
    I convinced my brother than my mother had to be placed in a nursing
    home.  He felt very guilty about it, but I told him that he has
    his life to live, that my mother lived hers to the full for as long
    as she could and that he deserves the same opportunity.  My mother
    has been in a nursing home for several months now and is doing quite
    well there.  (She even has a "boyfriend" who half the time she thinks
    is my father who died 11 years ago!  When I go to see her she tells
    me to say hello to my father.)
    
    Physically my mother now seems to be in excellent health for a 75
    year old woman, but mentally half the time is is "out of it".  
    
    It is very traumatic to deal with the aging of parents.  I was very
    close to my mother and it's been very painful to deal with the fact
    that physically she still exists but that essentially the person
    I knew and loved as my mother is gone.  
    
    My mother used to tell me that if she ever had to go to a nursing
    home she would rather I took her out in a field and shot her.  (Since
    I was basically raised to hate guns, I don't know how I was suddenly
    supposed to be able to shoot her! :-) )  But, of course in real
    life I couldn't do that and now she's in a nursing home.  I see
    a lot of old people fairly often going to visit her, and it makes
    me sad.  So many never have anybody come to visit them.  They're
    just forgotten, and that could be us 40 years from now.  But, one
    thing I feel certain of and that is that my mother would never have
    wanted me or my brother to totally give up what we wanted for ourselves
    in life just to care for her in her old age.  She wanted us to have
    happy lives, and she wasn't selfish.  
    
    

    The article in .0 comes very close to home for me. My mother in
    law lived with us for about two years while she recovered from a
    major stroke. It put a definite cramp in our style to be sure. We
    wouldn't have had it any other way though. She could not get around
    very well and had even more trouble speaking (common after strokes).
    There was no one else to take care of her and we were glad that
    we could. It felt good to be able to return some of what she had
    given to us and especially to my wife (who she raised alone). Not
    all was sweetness and light of course but it worked out.
    
    The major cause of conflict in our case was schedules. My mother
    in law is a morning person and my wife, son and I are not. The
    times my mother in law likes to eat are hours out of sync with when
    we want to eat. She also has different standards for house keeping.
    Somethings have to be done NOW. During a two week visit these conflicts
    don't really strain anything. After about 6 months they do.
    
    An other factor is how independent the older person wants to be.
    Those who want to be independent and ask for only what they need
    are much easier to take. Not just because they ask less, they often
    have to ask a lot, but because of their attitude. It's hard to
    resent a person who asked out of need and real helplessness. It's
    easy to resent doing something that someone could do for themselves.
        
    After my mother in law got well enough to live on her own again
    she did so. She bought a trailer (it sleeps 7-9 she wasn't going
    to let us have any excuse not to visit) and moved to Florida. For
    a while her mother lived with her. That didn't last for many of
    the same reasons that she didn't want to live with us any more.
    It's the differences in age, style and schedule that makes those
    things not work. I don't believe any generation is better or worse
    about having older relatives living with them any more.
    
    Individuals with in a generation show differences though. the article
    in .0 notes that the authors brothers give no help. My wife's
    grandmother gets lots of help from my mother in law but none from
    her son. Some years ago my father was talking to my brother and
    I about Social Security. His point was that either the younger
    generation pays SS to take care of the old or the old would have
    to move in with the young. My brother said he'd pay. I told my father
    that there would be a room ready. Difference in attitude I guess.

    		Alfred
    

    I didn't have to deal with this situation in my mother's case -
    she spent the last 6 months of her life in the hospital - but I
    have an 87-year-old aunt who's been very active until the last couple
    of years.
    
    After spending almost a month in the hospital with an infection,
    she was unable to walk without help...couldn't afford home nursing
    ($10/hour roughly)...and it really didn't make sense for me to take
    her in. No-one home during the day, stairs, can't get anywhere withou
    a car, and 100 miles from her "gentleman friend" and church friends...
    
    So, she went into a nursing home. Now, she doesn't *need*
    round-the-clock care. She *does* need someone around to help her
    dress and be sure she gets meals. Nursing homes are *not* the answer,
    and in many cases, neither is living with relatives after having
    had one's own lifestyle for 70,80 years. I'm sure my aunt would
    like to be in a place with other folks who need *some* supervision,
    but who are basically able to function on their own.
    
    The problem, as I see it, is that there are NO such places.
    
    If 2 or more generations can live together, more power to 'em! But
    as with Holly, if my mother and I lived together, I'd be stark raving
    bonkers in no time flat!  There really needs to be a middle ground
    somewhere that's AFFORDABLE. 
    
    Dawn
    

    My family is one which thrives on the existence of an extended family.
    Everyone lives at home with mom and dad (and grandmother if she's still
    alive) until he/she gets married. Then the married couple move in down
    the street. Nursing homes are unheard of. The kids take care of the
    elderly until death do them part. It's a cultural thing with us, we are
    all from Guyana. And it's true what they say: "You can take the man out
    of the country but you can't take the country out of the man." 

    I couldn't bear to put my mother into a nursing home, it would
    absolutely tear me apart, much much more so than having to give up my
    freedom.  I won't be able to look at myself in the mirror. 

    In *my* opinion the American lifestyle does not emphasis the importance
    of an extended family. In *my* opinion old people are often seen a
    nuisances, often they are nuisances because of the way of life here. 

    My mom recognizes the differences between the two cultures and plans to
    return to Guyana right after her retirement. I think that I may return
    with her. I don't see it as much of a sacrifice, it would be the least
    I can do for her.  And there I would be able to afford a nurse's
    aid if I choose to.     

    
    I am also from Guyana, and like Karen, I think that I will not be
    able to live with myself if I put either of my parents in a nursing
    home. Giving up my present lifestlye would be nothing compared with
    the mental agony I will suffer. Thank God, my husband is alos from
    Guyana, and he totally agrees with me. He knows I will do the same
    for his father. His mother is already dead, and she was at home
    cared for by her daughters and son until she died.
    I guess it is a difference in cultural. With that in mind, I think
    that I should prepare myself for the time when my children will
    probably want to put me in a nursing home. But, on second thoughts,
    I think that I will return to Guyana.
    
    Desryn.
    

    One of the reasons I came to New England to go to college was because
    part of my mother's family was here.  What with Thanksgiving and
    term breaks, I spent a fair amount of time with my grandmother and
    great-aunt.  They live in a retirement community - individual
    apartments, lots of other elderly people, room for gardens and such,
    really a *very* nice place.  They have separate apartments because
    their personalities are very different and they'd drive each other
    up the wall.
    
    Grandma HATES being old.  It's much more difficult to get around
    and do things.  It's one of the best reasons I know for trying to
    get in shape now - it's tough enough being old without handicapping
    yourself.  It's really difficult to struggle to do something and
    realize that, not so long ago, you could manage it with no problem.
    Ever read "Charly" or _Flowers for Algernon_?  Remember when Charly
    started to regress?  Being old is like that, only slower.
    
    I'm safely out of it, being far off in New Hampshire, but my family
    has a similar situation to .0 coming up.  Grandma needs surgery
    on her foot.  Mom wants to have her down to stay with the family
    during surgery and recuperation.  It will be expensive and it will
    also be a pain in the neck.  Grandma is in the matriarchical mode,
    only less authoritative and more fussy.  As Alfred said, things
    you can tolerate for the span of a visit become unbearable over
    longer periods of time.  However, the surgery is painful and Grandma
    is understandably frightened (she was a physical therapist, she
    *knows* she should have gotten it done long ago, but she put it
    off out of fear).  She needs the support of family at this time.
    
    Nobody ever said life was easy.

    It's one thing if an old person is failing physically, but it's
    entirely different ball game when a person's mind starts to go
    (whatever the reason).  I had no idea how appalling and difficult
    to deal with that is until it happened to my mother last year, and
    I don't think anybody knows until they've experienced it first hand.
     
    My brother tried to care for my mother at home but it was impossible
    and, in the end, more dangerous for her because she just wasn't
    getting the supervision she needed.  My brother is single, works
    full time at a blue collar job, so he doesn't have a lot of money.
     He had to hire nursing students at $10. an hour to watch my mother
    while he worked.  Even then, she would do some very unusual things,
    such as, trying to wash dishes in the toilet, turning on the stove
    and leaving pans with oil in them, wandering down the street half
    naked, and another time wrapping toilet paper around her dentures
    and then trying to cram them in her mouth.  Supervision was a difficult
    job.  One day she got out of the house and was found trying to force
    her way into some strangers house down the road saying that she
    lived there.  It was really a job to calm the other people down,
    try to explain and get my mother to go home.  
    
    Most Americans today just don't have the time or money to take care
    of other people that way.  My mother is a widow, my brother and
    I are her only children, and neither of us is married.  We both
    have to work for a living, and I have a teenage daughter living
    with her father to maintain a relationship with.  As far as I'm
    concerned taking care of a person who's mind has gone is a job that
    needs trained people.  Sometimes sentiment can just become ridiculous
    and not even the best thing for the old person.
    
    Now that my mother is in a nursing home, she has started a whole
    new chapter of her life.  She seems less confused, the nurses and
    attendants all love her, and she has a lot of friends and seems happy
    even though badly confused.  The nursing home is very nice, too,
    which makes it easier and all of the attendants seem very caring.
     So, in some cases, I think it's the only way.

    Three things I think are relevant in the decision of whether
    elderly parents should move in with their children:
    
    The first is whether the parent who needs care is ill or merely
    old.  I love my mother, and my mother-in-law, dearly, but I'm
    not a trained nurse and if one of them was seriously ill, say
    after a stroke, I couldn't take good care of them with the
    best of intentions.  

    The second is whether your devoted care of your parent, or
    a spouse's parent, is depriving someone else of the nurturing
    they're entitled to -- your kids, your spouse, yourself. 
    
    When I was 16 my grandfather had surgery for liver cancer. He had
    a stroke on the operating table.  There was nothing they could do
    for him, but he was a strong man and it took him a long time to
    die.  We had no money; the only choice was that he live with us.
    My parents were so wrapped up in their own grief and the sheer
    work of caring for a dying man that they didn't even see that my
    brother was sliding into delinquency.  It would have been better
    for everyone in the long run if we had incurred the debt of a
    nursing home. 
    
    The last factor is whether the care of the older members of a
    family is really the responsibility of the whole family, or just
    of the women in the family. 
     
    Carol, Steven's first babysitter, had to give up the child care
    she loved because her husband's mother was taken ill and moved in
    with them so Carol could take care of her.  (The husband's three
    brothers obviously couldn't have Mother living with them since
    they aren't married.  That's a quote.)  The brothers sent
    something like $50 a month, not even enough to cover the medical
    bills, let alone get help to take some of the burden off Carol.
    And then at the funeral they dumped on Carol for complaining about
    the bills! 

    I'm not saying her experience is typical, but it happens far
    too often.  

    re: the base note -- while the woman in the article is facing
    a difficult situation with a lot of courage, it sounded to
    me like she might be projecting a lot of her own fears and
    resentment onto the friends she accused of not wanting to
    associate with her.  That was the worst thing about having
    my grandfather at home while he was dying -- we couldn't avoid
    thinking that we were going to die, too.  That we could end
    up like this.  Not a pleasant thought when you're 16 and ready
    to conquer the world.  
    
    --bonnie

    RE: the brothers not taking care of mom 'cause they weren't married.
    
    I think sometimes in these situations assumptions (basically sexist
    in nature) are made about who "should" do the "care-taking".
    
    The converse of the not-married brothers is the single-woman situation.
    Often the unmarried daughters have this responsibility put on *them*
    simply because they're unmarried. The implication is, of course,
    that since they are not (heterosexually) married, their lives are less
    important.
    
    
    There *are* many things to consider in such a decision. My aunt,
    for instance, was totally isolated in her apartment as she didn't
    drive and couldn't take the bus. Now, she sees many more people
    in the course of a day, so her social interactions are better.
    
    Dawn
    

    re: .0
    
    I wondered why the mother moved in with daughter ? Further, I wondered
    why daughter hasn't hired a "live in" nursemaid/companion for her
    mother (6 figure salary ?).
    
    Choices are what separates us. My choice to have an older house
    botched up my hiking schedule. Further, my choice to get married
    further bothched up my hiking and camping schedule. My decision
    to take job with more responsiblity botched up part my noting pastime,
    and so forth.
    
    I felt glued to the article, because as I watch my own mother aging
    (now 79); and *KNOW* her contempt for nursing homes (called: death
    factories by some); the future care of her will be  difficult. There
    are sisters with whom to share this  care (se we all say); but yet
    we all know that our lives will be affected by it. To say that my
    mother is "strong willed" and "opinionated" is an understatement.
    Getting along with her is easy if the only thing you want to do
    is listen.
    
    I see this "rising star" making a choice out of (guilt ?),and
    sacrificing her career; possibly her "life" in the sensse of attracting
    suitable suitors. If suitable means to exclude those who can't face
    the problems of "aging"; what is she going to fo as she "ages" ?
    
    In some ways, this article almost seems fictitious (I don't know
    if it is) because it appears the woman made "default" choices instead
    of deliberate choices. She has permitted herself to become the
    "nurturer" instead of the "Career person". 
    
    In one sense, looking at the 'psychology' of the people involved:

    I consider the possibility that being a "rising star" has its share
    of stresses. By "using" her mothers' situation, she can gracefully
    "back out" of the career mode, and do some of the more mundane things
    that 'normal' people do; without needing to make it a conscious
    choice. 
    
    "Say, boss, I'd like to stay at home  and read tonight.Is it ok if I
    don't go to the Johnsons party tonight ?" would be far more hazardous
    (to her career) than "Say, boss, my mothers' taken a bad turn. Is it ok
    if I don't go to the Johnsons party tonight ?" 
    
	Bob
    

    Often in considering the appropriate care for the elderly we make
    decisions based on emotions.  There have been considerable studies
    on senility that indicated that home care for the elderly is not
    in the best interest of the individual.  
    
    My mother would never be the person she is right now if she was
    not in a congregate community.  And yet three years ago she did
    not see this type of lifestyle as an option for her.  
    
    Yesterday I began a part time job working with the elderly.  We
    sat a 99 year old woman in a rocker and she kept screaming "This
    is awful"  I do not know what comprehension she has but we brought
    the rocker in the kitchen fed her tea and cookies and talked to
    her and hugged her.  She no longer screamed.  The best part of the
    day for me was when Sister Rose Ida took my hand and coupled it
    in her two hands and said "I give you two".  
    
    What I think was 'awful' must have been being alone.
    
    There are other examples I observed in those short eight hours
    yesterday and with the people I have met through my experiences
    with my mother that have convinced me that the choice to seek a
    nursing home or alternate care for a parent is a good one.
    
    

    	Does anyone have information on congregate communities,
    	or semi-independent living situations for the elderly?
    	I am looking for specific places in the Greater Boston
    	area.
    	  Linda

    Concord Housing Authority has congregate housing. The phone number
    is 369-8435.  My mother has lived there for a year.  Rent is according
    to income and the maximum savings allowed is $15,000.

    I believe that Musketiquid Village (Sudbury Housing Authority -
    443-5112) is also a qualifier.
    
    jh
    

I value extended families...

I can remember when my grandmother was staying with us after one of her
operations...  It wasn't too bad as she was my mother's mother, so that my
mother learned how to 'home make' from my grangmother.  But there were enough
times that my grandmother tried to run the house to grind teeth occasionally.

It was ok for us, because my mother was a homemaker, and there were six kids
running around to help care for grandmother.  

The trend these days is not only for smaller families, ie fewer working people
in the family to help care for the elderly, but also because now a days there
are fewer people (wives & children) at home to care for the elderly.  

Because of longer lifespans, there are also the 'elderly' caring for the
'elderly', ie, a 60 year old woman trying to care for her 80 year old mother.
By that time, the grandchildren are nolonger home to help, and may be
disassociated emotionally or geographically. 

Lsst, we can keep people alive much longer these days after they can no longer
function well enough to be productive in any way, which requires much more care.

JMB