Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    Re: LAVA::HACHE  (Sorry, but I don't know your Christian name!)
    
    Hi,
    
    My name is Joana Bize, I am French, but have married a Swiss, and
    we now live in Geneva, Switzerland. When (and if) you come over,
    I'm sure we can have lunch and a good chat together!
    
    Are you American? the horrified tone of your notes seems to imply
    so, as I can't see a native French or Swiss being that upset by
    the state of things over here....
    
    Though much of what you say is true, you seem to be painting the
    picture much blacker than it is. Saying that French women dress
    up to "get ahead" is a bit unfair on quite a few of them: French
    women dress up because they LIKE clothes, they like the way they
    look in them, and they don't think they need to look like men to
    compete in a man's world. 
    
    I'd also like to take you up on the question of the men taking a
    nap after lunch while the women wash up: though it's probably true
    in the deep south of quite a few European countries, it is not more
    a general attitude here than in the States, definitely not in most
    two-income couples, and most of my friends, men and women both, would 
    be extremely annoyed by this sort of sweeping statement.
                                                  
    True, both France and Switzerland are still very patriarchal, but
    maybe you could try to step back from what you see on the surface,
    and not imply that: "All Frenchmen are machos, and all French women
    have only one goal in mind, to entrap a man into marriage by dressing
    like a whore".
                
    Europe and America have very different cultures, and accepting the
    fact that we are different helps us to accept that each culture,
    in its own way, makes sense and is acceptable for the people who
    live in it.
    
    As for Women's Societies, try looking up the phone book under "Societe",
    "Association","Groupement" or even "Club". You'll probably find
    something.
    
    Amicalement.    
    
    Joana

    RE: .4
    
    Good reply!
    
    
    WW

    RE.0
    I am wondering if you aren't still in the state of acute culture
    shock alla American.
    My first experince in traveling abroad was in Spain and my head
    was reeling after two weeks from the culture differences particulary
    on woman's role in Spanish culture. I couldn't comprehend how these
    women survived each day without going crazy scrubbing the floor
    on their hands and knees, running home from a day in the vineyards
    to cook supper for their husbands; but they were proud when you
    remarked on how immaculate their homes were and would invite you
    in to share the dinner they so painstakingly put together.
    In Italy, it seemed worse to me. Women are not addressed by their
    first names, rather they are called "the wife of..." and they are
    still considered "girls" until they have a child; again I couldn't
    comprehend this but it worked for them in their daily lives and
    who are we to look down our noses at a different culture and make
    judgements that because someone is wearing something we consider
    revealing, for example, that they are less than we Americans.
    I personally could not live daily as the women I met, but that is
    because I grew up in a different culture; what works there doesn't
    necessarily work here, so rather than let your nerves get shattered
    it would be easier to allow a "live and let live" attitude. It didn't
    sound to me that these women are forcing their culture on you, so
    why not try to learn about the culture as you cannot change it unless
    the people themselves want the change.
    I truely believe you are mainly experincing culture shock and it
    is very unnerving as I experinced it myself and so have many others,
    because, quite frankly if you don't the people around you will pick
    up on your attitude and life will then truly be unbearable, for
    who wants to be friends with someone who thinks their lifestyle
    is beneath them.
    The American way works in America, if other cultures wish to adopt
    some American ways, then it is their choice, not ours to make.
    I sincerely hope this note did not come off as a Flame, I do
    understand what seems to be happening with you.
    sincerely
    Fran
    

    re .0, .2
    
    I can echo the horror/shock of how it feels for an American woman
    in France.  I worked at Renault near Paris (Reuil-Malmaison) for
    the longest three months of my life.  And then silly me stayed in
    Paris for another four months.
    
    While France (and Europe) are industrial countries, they are
    _different_cultures_ and applying American norms and standards will
    not work.  What is considered polite in America is often quite rude
    in France (the guys in my office used to laugh at the business letters
    we got from america and how horribly rude they were).  What is
    considered basic, normal, polite, friendliness in America is often
    not welcome in France (ie. don't make conversation with the waiters
    except to ask what's good today).
    
    Work styles I got used to:
    - Being one of two women in a large building
    - Watching everyone smirk when referring to the other woman (an
      older, unmarried engineer) and not understanding what was so funny
    - Shaking EVERYBODY's hand, twice a day (once with hello, once with
      goodbye)
    - Security guards who would not allow even senior personnel out of
      the plant at 4:25 (even if you were coming back)
    - Being one of two or three people left in the plant for several
      weeks in July/August (they all go on vacation)
    - No feeling of pride in a job well done - people did their time
      and that was it
    
    Much of this was probably Renault-specific and would not apply to
    DEC plants in France.
    
    Nevertheless the men I worked with were overall quite nice.  The
    handshakes became more and more friendly and I feel a lot of affection
    for them all.
    
    I would not recommend using the word "feminist", even with French
    women.  If they are interested in such things, they will be aware that
    a lot of American women are feminists and will initiate the contact.  I
    made the mistake of congratulating one woman on being the first french
    feminist I had met and she recoiled in horror, muttering things about
    how she was "no suffragette" and how there is no sexism (or racism) in
    France and the US must be horrible. 
    
    I too was uncomfortable with the nude advertisements everywhere,
    particularly in the subway (and on TV).  While I was called prude 
    for that discomfort, I noticed that there was little _male_ nudity
    in similar advertisements: it seemed to me that only _women's_ bodies
    were used to make sales that way and that the male nude form was
    not considered as sellable.
    
    If you are in a city (particularly Paris) please, please, be verrrry
    careful.  During my time there, I was raped and later beaten up,
    another friend of mine was also raped.  My attackers were immigrants,
    but her attacker was a French man (much to the suprise of the police
    who assumed only a Semite would do such a thing).  You may be attacked
    on crowded streets in broad daylight in a "good" neighborhood, you
    may be attacked by a date who can't take no for an answer (particularly
    from an American woman).
    
    re .1:
�    As an aside ... is one treated differently depending on family 
�    associations or fluency in the French language or other things? 
    
    Family associations are helpful as they help you meet people who
    will not harm you, who would never _think_ of harming you.
    
    Fluency in French is both good and bad.  Good: it helps you hide
    your nationality, making you less of an easy mark for the "wolves"
    or "drageurs" (dressing and doing your hair in a more European style
    will also help - most people thought I was German after I changed
    my appearance).  Bad: I found that my capabilities in the language
    permitted me to hear the things passers-by were saying, the huge
    huge huge number of men harrassing me on the street, etc.  The hoots
    and hollers are mostly harmless, and I would have been much happier
    and no less safe if I had not known what they were saying to me.
    
    I was unable to find women's support groups while I was in Paris
    (not even a rape hotline) but found the American Embassy to be very
    helpful in putting me in contact with American-run groups: clubs,
    crisis hotlines, suicide help, medical advice, etc.
    
    The atmosphere feels quite sexist, racist, and homophobic, largely
    because it is.  I cannot say it is _worse_ than here, per se, but
    I find myself more comfortable in an environment where such problems
    are at least acknowledged as existing and being important problems.
    
    And remember, not all French have these attitudes, in fact I'd say
    most of them do not.  I still have family there, who were reassuring
    to see regularly: they were quite French, and were nice, lovable
    people.  Sort of reminded me that I was only seeing the worst of
    what France had to offer.  I can put you in contact with some of
    them if you are near Paris.

    RE: .8
    
    > another friend of mine was also raped. My attackers were immigrants,
    > but her attacker was a French man (much to the surprise of the
    > police who assumed only a Semite would do such a thing).
    
    Lee, did the French police care to theorize if he was a Jewish Semite
    or an Arab Semite?
    
      Alan                                

    re .9
    
    sorry, I keep thinking of the word "semite" as meaning israelis
    and arabs, and forgetting that here it usually means jews.
    
    the cop ("flic") asked her if the guy was an arab.  she said no,
    he was french.  the cop nearly had a coronary right then and there.
    
    lee

    i lived in france for a few months and had an extremely hard time,
    too. i couldn't walk down the street without hearing comments about
    my body, my choice of apparel, and so on. i couldn't sit on a park
    bench without being approached by a man. i was chased several times,
    a few times at night, and a few times by men in a car while i was
    on foot. it was pretty frightening. i took to walking with a stick
    and wearing reflectorized sunglasses. that seemed to help. i noticed
    that most women travelled in pairs; i had no close female friends
    while there.
    
    although i never felt completely comfortable, i was never attacked.
    and there were some delightful parts about being there.

    good luck,
    liz    

    I will have to climb on my white stallion and come to the defense
    of France (comme Jeanne, la Pucelle d'Orleans): please, don't think
    that the bad experiences you had in Paris, and which make me feel
    very apologetic and ashamed of my countrymen's behaviour, would
    have happened in other parts of France, or would happen more in
    Paris than in any other big town:
    
    Paris is not worse, or better, than New York, or Milan. All big
    towns are potentially more dangerous than small towns. If you live
    in a big town, you just don't walk around at night unaccompanied
    without running horrendous risks. I have been several times in Paris,
    have never had any problems, and did not find the town more "sexist" 
    or more dangerous than London or Rome. The only towns in Europe
    I know which I find REAL dangerous are Marseille and Hambourg, because
    they are ports, and pretty bloody things happen there.
    
    Lee, I don't know when you were in Paris last (can't have been such
    a long time ago), but there is a group "Femmes Battues" with a
    hotline number in Paris. Again, I can't tell you how sorry I am
    for what has happened to you and others. I do believe that being
    a foreigner increases the risk, and I would expect to be more at
    risk as a Frenchwoman walking in New York, than as a Frenchwoman
    in Paris.
    
    Adele, give a chance to the rest of France if you feel Paris is
    really too bloody awful (I love Paris, but wouldn't live there even
    if I was paid to...). Also, I think you will find Switzerland very
    different. Yes, one "canton" still does not let woman vote, but
    it was partly the women's choice (as soon as I have time, I'll enter an
    explanation in the "politics" note).
    
    One thing has been said by several noters, and is very true: don't
    try to reform us (men and women both) for our own good: we won't
    see it that way, and you'll have people resenting you, poking fun
    at you, or exaggerating their attitudes just to get back at you.
    It may be a childish attitude, but it's nevertheless very painful
    for the person who is a victim of it.
    
    I do hope you'll find an acceptable middle-ground between your culture
    and ours and, time helping, you'll become addicted to Europe!
    
    Joana
         

    
    I have removed note 760.2 because it was distracting
    from my original request, also I'm not trying to change
    France, it is the way it is and I have to learn to live
    with it while I remain here.  
    
    I am Canadian, but I lived in the US for over 20 years so
    I could be considered at least part American.  I live
    currently on the French Riviera or Cote d'azur, not
    in Paris.
    
    I'm sorry if I ruffled some French feathers, that really
    wasn't my intention,  I said things that I normally
    would not have said because the first response to my
    note was from an old friend Steve Thompson,  since he
    is a friend I aired out my frustrations.  I guess a
    public forum was not a good choice,  I must admit that
    I also wasn't aware that so many men read this conference.
    
    I guess the main problem is that before moving here I
    had my idea of France,  I pictured a beautiful country
    which it is,  but I think the France I had read about
    and dreamed has not existed for at least a century.
    
    I guess that's all I have to say, if you know of any 
    support groups or publications I would certainly
    appreciate it.
    
    				Thanks...
    						Adele
    

    re .12
    
    actually, i spent about a month in paris, and felt far more comfortable
    there than i did in grenoble (a much smaller city; i lived there for 5
    months). i did feel unsafe at night in grenoble, but during the day, i
    never felt like i had the _right_ to walk down the streets. it seemed
    that the men there were empowered to possess any woman they wanted,
    that every time they let me pass unmolested it was a favor. i've felt
    far more at home in london, new york, washington, san francisco,
    copenhagen, and boston. it wasn't until i lived in france that i
    realized how much i care for my own country.
    
    liz

    Eagle, what are you talking about? There are only three men
    who have responded to this note and none of them reacted negatively
    to Adele's feelings. Is it okay for us women to have a variety
    of reactions to each other's notes?
    
    Bonnie

    RE: .16
    
    Bonnie, don't be concerned. He'll self-destruct his own note
    anyway by tomorrow.
    
      Alan

    Re: .15 Steve Dana
    
    I don't think men reacted negatively around Adele's note. The person
    who probably responded in the strongest way is ME, and I am a
    definitely a woman!
    
    Re: Adele
    
    Don't apologize for what you have said! It was your reaction, and
    it was understandable, and lots of people understood it. Ruffling
    a few French feathers is quite OK, and I did react very swiftly
    because I encountered the problem about two years ago with an American
    lady who came to work in Geneva and thought that we Europeans were
    just the pitts! Our TVs didn't have enough channels,  our fridges
    were not as cold, our men were "juste des dragueurs", our society
    was 200 years late, etc. So, when I saw your note, I thought: "Hoho,
    here comes again an American who has decided he/she knows what our
    ways should be!" I realise you were just blowing steam, and that
    always helps.
    
    I suspect that being "down South" does accentuate the impression
    of a very male-chauvinist society, as the Mediterranean definitely
    is a stronghold of machismo.
    
    Do let's plan to see each other when you come to Geneva (I will
    have no opportunity to go down to Valbonne for some time) I am sure
    we could share our experiences in a very positive way for both of
    us.
    
    You know what? Now I know you are in the South of France, I really,
    really envy you: gosh, I do wish I could be in your place, machismo
    and all. And don't let the men get you down: as long as you KNOW
    you are as good as they are, you don't need to worry, they'll catch
    on soon enough...
    
    Joana        

    
    Hi again,
    
    First of all thanks Steve, I know you're trying to help but
    it's ok.  Steve helped me through my PASCAL class and therefore
    feels a bit protective.
    
    Joana,
    
    Thanks for the support, I guess we had both reacted a bit strongly.
    I guess I need to try to understand, if not learn to like the way
    of life here.  I've been here for a year now and I think my stress
    level has gone up at least 90%, I think I've aged 3 years in one.
    
    I do get to Geneva once in a while because my finace's family is
    there, usually only for a weekend though but I'm sure we could 
    work something out.
    
    I do think the cote is a special place, not in every way positive
    and not in every way negative.  I've spent a lot of time in Provence
    and I would move there tomorrow if only I could find work, the
    people seem much more genuine and it's really much healthier of
    an environment.  
    
    I'm finding that I've withdrawn into a shell, whereas I had many
    friends in the US, I now go to work come home and spend all of my
    free time with my fiance.  It's not his fault it's just that I 
    don't like it here very much and frankly neither does he.  He
    calls home Geneva and I call home Framingham, so there is a problem
    we can't both have home.
    
    Thanks for the suggestions, I've looked in the book before but I'll
    try again.
    
    How do women in France really feel about the "woman as object"
    syndrome, the one's I've talked to don't seem to want to discuss
    it or shrug it off.
    
    				Merci,
    
    					Adele
    

        I am uncomfortable with the replies to Adele that seem to indicate
        that sexism is okay because it's just a difference in culture
        (yeah, I know that's not what you meant, but it's what I heard).

	I understand that you need to respect other cultures and understand
	that things are perceived differently because they're used to the
	current attitudes.  But isn't it still the same struggle?  I don't
	really know how to say this.  Yes, you have to be tactful and
	not look down on others because they've been brought up to accept
	sexist attitudes, but you should still be able to say that you
	find them sexist and say why you find them that way.

	I hope I don't offend anyone.  I'm not saying that cultural
	differences are sexist, just that sexist attitudes can not
	be accepted just because a culture is used to it.  I wouldn't
	advocate going out and trying to change everyone, but I also
	wouldn't advocate just accepting it especially where it affects
	you.

	...Karen
	

    RE.21
    Karen, as I wrote one of the notes that you are referring to I would
    like to add that while in Europe I was not exactly silent when I,
    myself in turn was being treated as the women brought up in Spain,
    Italy or Ireland, of which I had the opportunity to visit. It was
    not easy explaining to the people there that I did not want to be
    called "the girl" etc. I eventually made my point concerning myself;
    but it is impossible to change everyone. I found that out of curiosity
    several of the women asked me about the difference in the life in
    America verses their country. The older women could not understand
    it, the younger ones were more interested in listening. But what
    they do with what I had to tell them I believe will be up to them
    and how they can apply it to their daily lives if they choose.
    I found that simply making my way of life known without telling
    them that they were miserable when they clearly did not believe
    themselves to be so, at least generated a conversation, a cultural
    exchange actually.
    It's a case, I suppose, of walking a mile in someone elses shoes
    and if the shoe doesn't fit at the time then it shouldn't be shoved
    in with a shoe horn or else it's painful.
    Well, I'm not sure I've responded precisely to your comment, but
    I still think people learn more from actions than verbal chastizements.
    I learned a lot from these women too, and when and if they are ready
    to change, they will.
    
    Fran
    

	Yes Fran, I would handle it the same way.  Not to accept that
	lifestyle, but to explain how you feel and let others make
	their own decisions.

	...Karen

    Adele,
    
    Trying to change overnight what people think, believe, say or do 
    can evolve into an exercise in futility; we can only change how 
    it affects us.  It's healthier that way.  Personal crusades are
    self-defeating and create a negative atmosphere.
    
      
                  
    
      
    
    

    Re .25:
    
    Sounds like you think every discussion ought to go on forever. It's
    perfectly acceptable to stop talking/noting when one has nothing
    further to say - and I thought several issues were admirably dealt
    with in this particular discussion.
    
    -b (who suspects eagles of trying to stir things up...)