Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    
    	I have seen it work once.   A woman I know was in an unsatisfactory
    relationship, that she described as psychologically abusive.   She
    feels he has improved a lot now.    *But*  all these changes took
    over TWENTY YEARS to happen.
    
    	It was a great labor of love and devotion for her to spend all
    that time helping and teaching him.   I know it did her as well
    as him, a lot of good.   She spent those years working together,
    studying psychology, and being supportive and tolerant, while
    occasionally challenging his faults.
    
    	I believe this was a great labor of love, and for me this has
    helped to validate the value of conventional marriage.
    
    			Alan.

    re.1
    I agree to a point that woman who choose to become involved with
    someone believe that they have selected "the best possible choice";
    however, how is it that they do not see the reality of the situation
    when the man is openly abusive? Where did they learn that they can
    do no better than to focus their energies on someone who is physically/
    and or mentally abusive. 
    I see that their perception of what is "the best possible choice"
    as being grossly distorted. Therefore, if she has selected this
    type of man as being what is the best for her she has, it seems
    to me, a distorted opinion of her own self worth, otherwise she
    would right him off as a "bad deal". 
    What concerns me most is that women have I have spoken with have
    a history of becoming involved with abusive men. It is not necessarily
    a one time choice of a bad deal; it is repetitive.
    Yes, I realize that men can feel they are "macho" and therefore
    should dominate, however, I am concerned with the women who see
    these men as "the best possible choice" to waste their energies
    on.
    Fran
    

    re.2
    Devoting twenty years to straighten out an "unsatisfactory" abusive
    relationship is an enormous amount of energy directed on helping
    another person. I am not challenging what love can do. I am trying
    to understand what motivates a woman to direct a large portion of
    her energies on "changing" a man. What is it that women believe
    is their role in a relationship when they are in these types of
    situations. Are women somehow being taught that their function is
    to "save" a man from himself and in the process subject herself
    to abuse. Is it an emptiness that she feels can be fullfilled by
    changing someone into an acceptable partner. Why, instead, if she
    wants her current partner to change into a loving individual, why
    didn't she choose, instead, someone with those qualities rather
    than try to teach them to someone who is lacking in them
    Fran
    

    I don't know that it's appropriate self-esteem that keeps abusers
    away, but appropriate self-esteem will help you get away from abusers.
    
    Also, sometimes the young and naive think they can save someone.
    If you don't know that you can fail at this, you may try to stick
    it out as long as you can stand it, thinking "He's (or she's) got
    to get better, if only I try harder".  Somewhere, you have to get
    the idea that, yes, it's possible to fail at saving someone, and
    also, it's okay for you to fail at saving someone--it happens a
    lot.  But if your heads filled with romantic nonsense about
    shaping someone, you can stake too much of your self-esteem at
    succeeding at this, which is a nice flaw for the abuser to hammer
    away at, indirectly.
    
    So, actually, people with the best of intentions may end up abused.
        
    Remember, the abuser doesn't just slap you around or call you vile
    names.  After the abuse, there's often a reconcilliation, in which he
    (or she) cries, promises never to do it again, begs for love, is
    tender and affectionate.  That's the bait--the illusion that you
    might succeed in helping. 
    
    I can't seem to find a source for  statistics about the number of
    batterers who get better, but it's frighteningly low, especially
    for couples who stay together.   Again, I will say I have copies
    of an article about woman battering written by Esther R. Rome for
    the Boston Women's Health Book Collective (those great people who
    bring you _Our_Bodies,_Our_Selves_) which I will send you FREE
    if you send me your mailstop (and name).  It lists other pamphlets
    you can send for (most of which are free too).  I strongly suggest
    you put copies where women in your building can pick them up
    anonymously--which is where I found this one.
    
    So, again, free article about women battering, send for it now to
    me, 3d::chabot.  Include your name and mailstop (or other address).
    (All requests are treated confidential, of course.)

    re .3  Lack of self esteem comes from a number of sources - parents,
    peers, teachers, and one's self, often from surrendering to these
    others. Try Nathaniel Branden's work on the subject (The Disowned
    Self is a good start) for more in-depth discussion of this. 
    
    Those who submit to abuse of any type are subconsciously saying,
    "I don't deserve any better anyway." They have to consciously
    learn that they *do* deserve to be treated as people, with
    respect. Often a difficult lesson.

    Perhaps, I should have posed the question in this manner: what do
    you say to women who are in this postition? Many of them talk and
    talk about it, but nothing that is said seems to get through to
    them. They seem to know or expect nothing but pain.
    Fran
    

    I've heard the meek will inherit the earth.  Sometimes it seems
    like the meek just inherit the shaft (i.e. get shafted)...
    
    There are other kinds of abusive relationships.  One that I was
    in seemed just the opposite...he was meek and mild and unassuming,
    he had low self-esteem and would worry a lot and was very emotional.
    He didn't even realize the direction the relationship was going
    in, and I suppose I didn't either...
    
    But eventually, after feeding him compliments and trying to get
    him to cope with life and deal with his (often irrational) fears
    and get help and so forth, I just couldn't deal with living with
    such a drain.  Sometimes it seemed he was like a sponge, taking
    everything I could give and then asking for more, wanting attention
    and pity and help and the like.  It all ended rather messily and
    I am sorry I couldn't help him, but afterwards I finally realized
    that not only was I incapable of helping (as often changes such
    as this must begin from within the person), but also I was too close
    to the situation to see that all the things I was trying to do to
    help were just making the situation worse (making him less
    independent).  
    
    Eventually, I realized it was okay to say "enough...I'm not making
    a difference and it hurts to be here"...and hurt doesn't have to
    be physical, it can be mental and emotional too...
    
    -Jody
    

    re: .7 --
    
    When you say that some women seem not to know any other way to feel,
    you've put your finger on a key part of the problem.
    
    According to the statistics I've seen, the overwhelming majority of
    women who stay in abusive relationships grew up in emotionally painful
    homes -- alcoholic homes, abusive homes, otherwise dysfunctional
    families where they learned that love meant pain.
    
    They honestly don't feel comfortable in a healthy relationship.
     
    You mentioned _Women Who Love Too Much_ in your base note.  Have
    you actually read this book?  I found it very useful for explaining
    how an otherwise intelligent, healthy, warm, and witty friend of
    mine could stay in a relationship for two years with an emotional
    vampire who gave her no support, no love, no nothing.  Not even
    good sex!  (And by the way, the explosive kind of sex that antagonists
    sometimes have is very satisfying to some women, and can provide
    a bonding that makes the abuse seem worthwhile.)  And she didn't
    even like the guy much.  It scares me to think what could happen
    to her if she falls in love with a man like that -- it would take
    twenty years to open her eyes to what he was doing to her.
    
    --bonnie

    Re.8,9
    I did read Women who love too much and found it very painful the
    first time around reading it. The next time it began to make sense
    that I could deal with. I myself came from a dysfunctional home
    and believed that love was pain. I myself was in an emotionally
    abusive relationship for ten years off and on. Finally one day I
    (at least it seemed to be one day) I said enough is enough. Today
    I am fortunate to be involved in a steady relationship wHich confused
    me in the beginning because there was no pain of which I had grown
    accustomed I worked extremely hard to reach the point in saying
    NO MORE PAIN. BUt I find myself at a loss when speaking to other
    women still in this type of situation. I can not seem to understand
    how I lived as I did for so long being miserable, perhaps I shut
    off the past in my mind, and perhaps by trying to understand why
    women find themselves in this position I may understand how it happened
    to me.
    But most of all I am hoping that if any woman reading this topic
    is in that type of situation she can realize that she is not alone
    and above all that there is hope and a better way of life free from
    pain.
    Fran
    

    I am intimately involved with this topic having been in repetative
    abusive relationships in the past and am now a psychologist.  
    
    What I have learned from both experperience as well as from the
    new literature coming out on "co-dependence" is that this "rescuing"
    to the point of losing your "self" has is roots in our family of
    origin.  As I trace back through the generations of my family, I
    see alcoholism and a rigid catholic world view that helped to create
    a family environment that says "Don't tell the truth about how you
    feel or what is going on here"  "This family is perfect - we don't
    want to hear problems"  "You act up and I will abandon you (if not
    physically then psychologically"                      
    In my adult life I act out my fear of abandonment by choosing someone
    who "needs" me - therefore will not leave.  This rescuing or helping
    is really a form of control.
    
    Sounds morbid but their is a way out - people connecting with each
    other and telling the TRUTH about ourselves is one way.  Therapy,
    support groups are others, and for me, it was finding a spiritual path that
    fed me.                  
    
                          Just another course in life's classroom!
    

    re.11
    
    Control,control..yes..yes..yes...I do understand that very well.
    I think one thing that snapped me into taking a better look at myself
    is that I realized that I had deluded myself into thinking I had
    control when in reality the situation was controling me, but I had
    unwittingly set up the situation..that's the scariest part..
    Fran
    

    I was in the same situation for ten years myself.....but no one
    could have told me to leave...it was something I had to learn or
    grow out of myself.  I read lots of books and got some counseling...and
    I realized that I *too* was from a dysfunctional alcoholic family...
    I was amazed at the growth that I got from realizing this.  I see
    some women in this situation and I can give them advice but it's
    up to them to act upon it.  How do we get them to stop doing it?
    I don't think we can...it has to come from them....we can let them
    know they are not alone and give them our experiences - but we can't
    talk them out of it.....that almost sounds like *control* huh....I've
    been there so what I tell you is *right*....*listen* now and get
    out?????
    
    bobbi
    

    RE.13
    EXCELLENT POINT! funny thing after I wrote some of these notes I
    got to asking myself if I wasn't somewhat doing it all over again.
    One thing it seemed to me that before when I was in that situation
    I was great on giving advice to everyone, it was almost a "must
    do" or I'd get the shakes almost if I didn't "try to solve some
    one elses problems." Thing now is that I am terrible at giving advice,
    and at the same shot, I don't want to give advice as I know that
    I pulled myself together when I finally faced myself, who I was,
    and what I learned from living in a dysfuntional/alcoholic home.
    I did listen to advice though and years later I acted on it, but
    like you said, it is yourself that decides to make the change, no
    can do it for you ...
    Fran
    

    From my personal experience and that I've heard from others, when
    you try to talk someone out of it, she hates you when she snaps
    back to him.  Crud, even the times when you don't say a word bad
    about him, just listen and be there, she associates you with the
    schism.  I've felt about like kidnapping one woman at one time,
    but what can you do?  I think there has to be a better, more effective
    way to help, and we have to work to discover it.  All knowlege isn't
    known yet, after all, and maybe there's some finesse lurking in
    next month that will be closer to helping.

    I think that some women just want to have a man in their life so
    badly that they are willing to put up with almost anything.  Since
    there are more women than men, there's not enough men to go around,
    so some women may honestly believe that there's nothing better out
    there.  They may think that taking a chance on being alone for a
    long period of time is worse than being in any relationship, no
    matter how bad.
    
    Maybe someday when our society is not so couple, family oriented,
    and more people discover happiness being single, then fewer people
    will put up with so much abuse just to "have somebody."  
    
    So, I guess the problem is how to convince somebody that they are
    better off all alone than with someone who mistreats them.