Conference turris::womannotes-v1

       I would have laughed with them, considering the responsiveness
    of some women.  :-)
    
                                         Russ

    I probably would have shrugged my shoulders and walked away.
    

    re: .1
    Considering the ability of some men, I would have laughed even
    harder.
    

I probably would have fired off some of Rosanne (or is it Rosanna?) Barr's
jokes. She has some real disgustingly funny ones.

Jenna

    Not me!!  The power of a smirk is surprising.  I would have held
    the smirk until it met the guy's eyes and then a second longer.
    Then I would have walked away.   But that's if you don't have a
    good comeback which in my mind is even more effective.  
    
    You can't be shy or your comeback will sound weak and helpless.   You 
    have to sound like "one of the boys" when you put him down and you HAVE
    to laugh heartily to help ease the sting.  
    
    Again, you have to be careful with a comeback though.   You were
    outnumbered by male strangers.  They could have easily just stopped
    and stared at you and you would have been left feeling like an idiot
    and the militant feminist with no sense of humor they might well be 
    thinking about you.  I'd go with the smirk in this case and all cases 
    where I wasn't sure my retort would elicit a louder laugh than the
    joke did.
    
    But the biggest thing is not to take jokes personally.  Men jokingly
    insult each other constantly, probably more than they do about women.
    They just get each other back with a better joking insult, a
    can-you-top-this type of thing and they consider it all in good
    fun.  If you act huffy during this game, you won't be seen as having 
    principles but of being humorless for not knowing how to play a simple
    game which to them is very, very common.  But SINCE there were many
    people present, your lack of laughter wouldn't be missed and your
    smirk, if you held it long enough for the speaker to see you, would
    have reached it's mark silently and very effectively.
    
    The other woman who laughed probably thought exactly the same thing
    you did.  Most women feel powerless to do anything in this instance
    and just laugh to "go along".  Don't laugh if you don't think it's
    funny.  Smirk like you've just discovered the guy's entire worth.  And
    adding the slowest, tiniest little nod of your head, (as in, "Yup, just as
    I thought!"),  can be devastating.  He'll hate you for it, but he'll
    remember it!!

    RE: .5
    
    But a smirk does not say precisely what you mean. A smirk could
    be misinterpreted.
    
    Here's what I did in a situation in which a joke was told that insulted
    men:
    
    The person told the joke and I didn't laugh. She said, ``Don't you
    think that's funny?''
    
    ``No.''
    
    ``Yeah, sure. Because it insults men, right?''
    
    ``The jokes biggest flaw is that it's not funny. Maybe it's because
    I don't find humor at the expense of a person or a group of persons
    funny. Besides, the funniest jokes are based on truth. That joke
    isn't, in my opinion.''
    
    You see, if you explain nicely that you don't like those kinds of
    jokes, the person telling them will think twice before telling you
    another one, if they are at all considerate of your feelings.
                                                                
    
    WW
    

Ask him to explain the joke.

M.

    
    re .6
    
    Wes,  I think your direct approach is especially effective when
    you have a relationship with the "joke" teller.  I'm assuming here
    that you had some relationship because the person telling the joke
    asked you why you weren't laughing, so she or he gave you an opening
    to express your dissatisfaction.  But what do people do in a less
    personal setting like the one described in the base note or in a
    meeting?  I think it's a tough thing.  I suspect we all ignore
    some things, but sometimes we feel compelled to speak up.  I 
    guess we all draw that line differently for ourselves.  For example, 
    I've tolerated a lot of sexist "jokes" in work settings, but when a 
    (more senior than I) coworker started making snide remarks about
    AIDS, I couldn't let it go, and I called him on it.
            
    I think if I had been in the situation .0 described, I might have
    said something... either at the time or to the "joke" teller
    afterwards.  It's not easy to confront someone, but we all do have 
    the right not to be offended by sexist "humor" at work.
    
    Justine
    
    

    I disagree with the "explain why you don't think it's funny" note.
    
    This woman was in a crowd of many strange men having a laugh.  Even
    if the woman IS right, no man is going to stop laughing and accept
    what he will interpret as "scolding" from one strange woman in the
    crowd.  It just won't work.  She'll look like an idiot.
    
    Men simply do NOT take such jokes as seriously as women do.  Her
    patient explanation would have come off as heavy-handed, humorless,
    pointless, (because they would have joked about HER afterwards),
    and ineffective.  Stopping the laughter to "educate" men is the absolute
    worst thing she could have done.   I'm willing to bet most of the
    guys, (and maybe even the other woman!), would have groaned and
    started leaving one by one.  I know I would have.  The guy knowingly
    told the joke in her presence for heaven's sake.  He obviously knows
    what he's doing and he didn't think the women would mind.  
    
    You need to get your message across to HIM alone without involving the 
    entire group, (as an explanation would do), which would embarrass him 
    and put him on the defensive.  Once you do that, you set yourself up
    for a direct hit from him, possibly far worse than the indirect hit from
    the joke ever was.  THEN what do you do?  Insult back and set off a
    confrontation which the outnumbered woman would surely have lost?
    
    The idea is to retain your grace and dignity.  You "scold" a man
    publicly and he'll see to it that you loose yours.
    
    The smirk will indeed convey exactly the right feeling in this
    situation.  What else would it convey?  Could the woman be smirking 
    because she too is dead-in-the-sack?  Not likely.  She'd probably keep 
    her mouth shut in that case.  Probably even laugh at the joke to prove 
    she doesn't identify with the victim of it.
    
    I still say the silent smirk while holding the speaker's gaze is the
    best response to this situation.   He gets your message and everyone
    keeps their dignity.

    the total silence, no reaction on your face (except, perhaps, a
    tolerant but bored gaze -- no smile) has worked remarkably well
    for me.  Sandy C is right -- eye contact with the offender is very
    important.
    
    I have found direct conflict over offensive jokes to be pretty
    ineffective.  The person just goes ahead and needles me, just a
    little quieter.  When I have not said one word about the offensiveness
    of the joke, the person may go ahead and make jokes like that, but
    they NEVER continue to do so in my presence.
    
    When I first came to this group, I did not talk at _all_ about women's
    issues.  I hardly ever do even now.  Somehow, they all knew; about
    a month after I came, someone was talking about an old boss who
    liked to pat fannies -- that person said they'd really like to see
    him after trying that on _me_.
    
    Lee

    RE: .10
    
    >>> Men simply do NOT take such jokes as seriously as women do.
    
    That's a sexist remark. I find that offensive. 
    
    Not true!
    
    
    WW	
    

    re: -1
    
    Gee, I'm sorry.  I thought I was letting most of you guys off the
    hook with the comment that premeditated nastiness was not always 
    behind the jokes as often or to the extent that women think so.  But
    if you want to rebut with "Yes they are - their jokes are serious and well
    thought out results of their true inner feelings towards women," well,
    OK!   I won't argue with you!     
    
    I wouldn't be surprised if some men do, though!

    I agree with Liz, when someone is being nasty and tasteless just
    ignore them.  Or, walk quietly away.  Sooner or later they'll get
    the message.  (Especially if several people in the group do this.)
    If everyone reading Russ' .1, for example, had just hit next unseen,
    wouldn't it have been better?
                                               

    
    	I'll never understand the remark "we have the right to not be
    offended in the work place"...as if the "rose garden" concept even
    exists. Offence taken is a personal choice. If it bugs you, stop
    reading; stop listening. (*I* usually stop hurting myself when I
    find I'm doing so!) Where does a "right" even come into it???
    	I'll conclude by pointing out that the "do nothing" reaction
    was ascertained as "the best" by the previous replys...There are
    reasons for this, like spreading negativity, that I've tried to
    portray before. I always hope someone will understand.
    
    	Joe Jas

    In a social context this might be appropriate, but suppose these
    things take place during a business meeting.  Getting up and walking
    out only serves those who would exclude you from the meeting.

    Jokes are told to emit a reaction from the listeners.  If no reaction
    is given then the reason for the remark loses its weight and dies
    a quick death.
    I find that the blank stare is the most effective when I've found
    myself in similar situations any comments or reprimand only feeds
    the fire as it is a reaction of some sort and gives the teller what
    they want e.g. to shock; embarrass; etc.
    
    Fran
    

    Re: .16
    
    Oh, right.  I don't advocate walking out of a business meeting.
    I was thinking of "hallway conversations".  In business meetings,
    I advocate the blank stare.  On a related note, the most effective
    way to deal with obscene phone calls is to just quietly and immediately
    hang up (I mean, hang up, not slam the phone down);  what the caller
    is looking for is a response.  Maybe it would help to think of some
    notes posted here as obscene phone calls.....
    

    I'm not sure what I'd have done, but...
    
    Most jokes told by professional comedians are not funny. They become
    so because the teller has the professionalism to time the dialogue,
    and add nuances of expression, both in voice, expression and body language,
    to create a comic illusion.
    
    In nearly all such cases they cease to be even mildly funny when retold
    by someone else.
    
    People laugh in these cases because they have been conditioned to do
    so.
    
    /. Ian .\

    Nope - 86 the blank stare unless you don't mind pretending to be
    dumb.
    
    Me, I'd rather convey that I understand, *quite clearly* what the
    speaker has said.  I played dumb once in my life - second grade.
    I'll never do it again.
    
    Also, if the woman in this instance just walked away, SHE would
    have been seen as the "outsider" not the speaker.  Don't forget
    that everyone else was laughing.  Most people who say "walk away"
    must be thinking of one-on-one situations.  If the woman in this
    scenario just walked away, no one would have cared or thought anything
    about it - and the man would probably have told a crude joke again in
    her presence, hoping that this time she didn't have some other business
    to attend to.  Just walking away, if you are one in the crowd, buys
    you nothing.  If that's all you want, then fine.
    
    But if you want the speaker to KNOW how you feel, walking away from
    a laughing crowd won't do it.  They'll just go on laughing without you.

    Yah!  Although I'm not sure the blank stare always means you're
    dumb.  I will often use the wooden smile or the withering stare.
    However, if everyone responded with a blank stare...too bad this
    isn't usually the situation.
    
    I'm a little annoyed at all the urging to not add negative feelings
    --after all, who started it?  It's especially a bad thing to tell
    to women or minorities, this "don't rock the boat" line.  However,
    I'm not advocating picking a fight, either.

    
    	re .21 -
    
    We NEVER propagate, re-transmit, foster, encourage or promote
    negativity in any form. We are glad to be able to terminate it
    immediately, on the spot, if we can. (makes for a better world)
    "+" cannot be wrought from "-", except in mathematics.
    
    	Joe Jas

    
    
    A simple little smile, a short breath and the question "But I 
    don't understand?" usually works quite well for me.  Sometimes
    I will add a "Could you please explain the joke?" but only when
    I am in a semi-safe situation.
    
    _peggy
    		(-)
    		 |
    			If you understand what they meant
    				they will understand what you mean.
    
    

    RE: 13
    
    I think the problem was your original sentence wasn't clear and caused
    misinterpretation. 
                                                   
    Besides, what studies do you have to back up your assertion that
    men take ``those kinds of jokes'' less seriously than do women?
    
    None. 
    
    Assertion about a group + no basis for it = Stereotype
    
    
    WW
    
     

    re .10
    
    I think Sandy's perception is exactly right. The men I know love
    to joke, and "sounding on,"  "ranking on," "doing the dozens,"
    "jiving," [what's it called today?]  has always been a form of
    play and cameraderie that we have enjoyed.  It was true in
    junior high school, high school, the air force, and everyplace
    i've worked or played.  anybody who took it seriously was
    certainly treated as a spoil-sport or a fool.
    
    	bruce

    Have you ever read "Games Mother Never Taught Me"?
    

    
    re: .13
    
    nicely done!
    

    I have to agree with .8 and .23. Say "I don't understand. Please
    explain." And if that isn't enough, follow through with: "I still 
    don't understand; what made it *funny*?"
    
    I personally LOVE jokes like that, in the proper company. But if
    in a situation where I feel its totally inappropriate, or with people
    whom I don't wish to get crude with, I find that those lines work
    VERY well. Especially if you carry it off with that "air of innocence".
    Or one of quiet knowing. Also, your question does NOT make the teller
    look foolish, but it will remind those present that such jokes should
    ONLY be told when EVERYONE present wants to hear them.
                                                  
    LKF

I would have walked away from the group without laughing.  Rude jokes can
be funny at times, but really tasteless stuff bores me to tears.

The basenote author was taking a course - the primary objective for even
being there was in learning whatever the course was about.  Is there any
reason to deal with the other people taking the course?  If they want to
stand around at break and tell rude jokes, fine.  Let 'em.  You don't have
to join in.  Concentrate on what you are there for - learning something
new from the course itself.  And forget the other people there.

Sure, it is reasonable that you may meet some of these people later on
in another business situation, and to have already developed a
relationship at the course might help.  But develop a relationship at
that time - hopefully in more of a one-on-one situation where any rude
jokes would obviously fall on deaf ears and where any snappy comeback on
your part has more of a chance of being heard and understood.

					Karen.

This Topic seems to be a contradiction to the "Feminist Humor" Topic.  Several
of the notes in that topic would fit well a the subject of this Topic. Why is it
alright to Feminist Sexist Jokes?  

Also, I fail to see how a Sexist/ Racist Joke does less damage if *I*, or any
given person does not hear it?  Such a joke perpetrates a bigoted attitude
amoung all those who hear the joke give positive feedback that such an attitude
is acceptable or funny.

I can accept that if I don't hear about it, I can hardly complain, but I
still do not believe that that makes it all right. 

I think that a lot of our humor should be looked at closely.  Is it "making
fun" of someone?  Is it laughing at someone else's misfortune or failings?
I do not find them funny.  "Slapstick" has a lot of this type of humor; "Three
Stooges" is a good example.

Jim. 

    "I think that a lot of our humor should be looked at closely."

    Without commenting on any other part of your position, I would like
    to point out that the above would be the death of humor.
    
    Chuck

    re: .31
    
    Hmm. . .while I agree that the study of humor is not often
    humorous to the student�, if studying humor were going to kill
    it (in general), humor would have been dead for a long time.
    
    I think the notion that there is benefit for people looking
    at what is funny and why is a good one; humor is too often
    either a mask or an extension of bigotted behavior.  But, simply
    because "jokes" which help suppress a portion of society go out
    of style (hopefully), I don't humor itself will die.  It will
    just take a different form.  It's hard for me to see how a well-
    executed (= well-timed) cream pie in the face won't be funny.
    Indeed, some humor works only when it isn't expected and while
    I agree that one key element of humor is uncertainty, studying
    it has yet to kill it.
    
    Steve
    
    � Unless, of course, on studies under The M. Python School of 
    Humor; one of their bits on "studying humor" is (at least to
    this foole) big time yuks.
    

    Well, I only said it (.31) to be funny, anyway. :-)
    
    But, having thought about it, I guess it wasn't that funny. :-) :-)

    Semi-seriously, another objection I have to attacking humor which
    reflects nasty attitudes of one kind or another, is that the attack
    hits the symptom of a problem, not the problem itself. While having
    sexist jokes come to be considered in poor taste is great, it would be
    lots better if sexism itself were universally so considered, no?
    I think if attitudes change, the humor will change to suit. 

    Chuck

    Right.  And you get attitudes to change by getting people to think--
    especially to think about what they say since this is an apparent
    symptom of their thoughts--and you get people to think about what they
    by bringing what they say to their attention, and one of the things
    people say is jokes...
    
    Yeah, I know: it's no fun if you take away jokes.  But the jokes
    weren't any fun for some of us, in fact they hurt.
    
    Jokes are a potent form of binding, they're stories that we tell
    to each other to show who's in and who's out.

I think that people have to be made aware that the jokes aren't 'just funny'.
Once that happens people will be aware that the underlying prejudices/* aren't
'just funny'.

Jim.