Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    I don't know if this will help, but I was a "troubled youth" from
    the time I was fourteen until I was quite a bit older.  The best
    thing my parents did for me was to tell me to get a job and move
    out, or go back to school.  I moved out, and we didn't speak to
    each other for six months.  However, we get along fine now.  
    
    Being responsible for your own actions and knowing noone is going
    to do anything to help you out is a great motivator.  I don't know
    if I could do this to my own kids, (13 and 2) if the time should
    come, but I hope that I will have the wisdom to do what is necessary
    at the time.  
    
    My heart goes out to you, but remember, about the time kids hit
    30, you are finally as intellegent as they are.  If you need someone
    to talk to, go ahead and send me some mail.
    
    Meg

    Er, a friend of mine got help through an organization sort of like
    AA, except it wasn't for the A but the parents of the A.  I'll go
    see what I can find out about the real name of the organization.

    The organization I was thinking of is "Get Tough", but my friend
    says that AlAnon was more help.  Call them now, or when you get
    home and are private.  They're everywhere.  You don't have to
    be an alcoholic, there doesn't even have to be drugs or alcohol
    problems in the family--they're people to talk to and folks who've
    had the problems you're having (unlike a lot of us here, who mean
    well, but people who haven't suffered through it may tell you it
    isn't so bad, which is no help at all!).
    
    So call AA.  And call the Employee Assistance Program.  I think
    EAP can help you get into some of the private notesfiles for
    things like AA.
    
    This guilt and stuff--they know about that.  It happens to parents,
    it happened to them too.  Find a support group that will fill out
    these other parts, some people you can count on.  Nobody really
    expects you to have to bootstrap yourself.
    
    Please call soon!  We all want you to feel as together as you look.

    Sorry, but I don't think you've done the right thing at all.  I
    think you've taken a fairly minor thing and made it into something
    that has the potential to distroy your son's life.  I think that
    he has learned that there are no adults he can depend on or trust.
    I know I'll get flamed for this but I too am the mother of eighteen 
    and seventeen year old boys and I think you are dead wrong.

    Have you any suggestions as to how she might recover, Mary?  I'd find
    it hard to hear naked criticism if I were feeling down already,
    wouldn't you? 
    
    						=maggie

    Maggie, 
    So many young boys today are treated as if they weren't human, weren't
    real, didn't have feelings.  Yes, I do have some suggestions on
    how she might recover.  Rather than work on controlling your son,
    on keeping him in line and out of your hair and your life where
    he can't disturb you, why don't you try working on your relationship
    with him?  Why don't you cancel your call to the local police and
    actually try being a mother to him.  Take him out to dinner tonight..
    just the two of you.  Tell him that you know you've misjudged him
    sometimes and over-reacted sometimes, that you've even been wrong
    from time to time.  Tell him that you understand how difficult life
    has been for him, especially with his father's rejection.  Tell
    him that you know (and if you don't you should) that pot smoking
    isn't that serious a problem and you know that he is probably doing
    it to relieve the stress he is under right now but that you are
    worried about him because you love him.  TALK TO HIM, CARE ABOUT
    HIM, and get him to trust you again so that he will talk to you.
    He sounds like he is on the road to self-destruction, like he left
    those things out for you to find on purpose.  In my opinion "tough
    love" is another ridiculous fad to replace proper parenting.  
    Communicate with him and understand that the decisions you make
    today will impact both you and him for the rest of your lives.
    I too an 42 years old and I've raised my boys alone for over 11
    years, also without any help.  I've seen some of the friends and
    childhood companions get absolutely lost in life because of parental
    attitudes.  Don't make the same mistakes.  You children are the
    most precious things in your life.  They are most important than
    anything else.  Fight for them.
    Mary

    
    	I agree with Mary.   When I was kid I got caught smoking,
    and no punishment would have stopped it.   The punishment just
    made me see adults as oppressors.   A kid smokes pot to get release
    from feelings, and in rebellion against the overly harsh laws.
    You have to find out why he feels he needs this escape.
    
    	You can agree with your son's desires to finish school.   In
    fact you probably have many areas of agreement with the way he
    feels.  Find those areas of agreement, and concentrate on those,
    rather than worrying about the behaviors you don't approve of.
    
    	It's often easiest to make progress in good by concentrating on
    the good, rather than by resisting the evil directly.   If you
    can fill your life, or your communication with your son, with positive
    elements, this will leave less room for the negative.
    
			    	Alan.

    
    	Re .6, .7...Amen.
    
    	Joe Jas

    Pot smoking is illegal.  If a parent allows their kids to do it
    because "it relieves tension" or "it is a release from feelings"
    they are doing more harm than good.  I would NOT under any circum-
    stance allow my child to smoke it in my house.  The basenote writer
    already told her son he was not allowed and he blew it...now he has
    to face the punishment.   Teenagers don't need to be baby'd.  

                                                               
    I am assuming the basenote writer has already tried the "reasoning"
    approach many times.  I work with a lady who's son is destroying
    her because she is too soft.  For 6 years I have watched this lady
    do everything in her power to make this kid happy.  Now his thanks
    is "Shut up Bitch"!  I don't know what the solution is to make these
    kids open their eyes but I sure don't think she needs to lighten up
    any.
    
                                                                                 
    

    There's a line.  On one side are the kids who are fundamentally good
    people, but they're rebelling/testing as a normal part of growing up
    no matter how tough that might be on the rest of the people in their
    vicinity. On the other side are the kids who are
    fundamentally...mmm, "amoral" is the most charitable way to put
    it...and are behaving badly simply because the wellbeing of other
    people is less important to them than the gratification of their own
    even trivial desires.  The trick is to decide which side of the line
    any given kid is on.   The second group needs a firm and
    uncompromising stand taken *for the protection of the parent*, NOT
    for the sake of the good it'll do the kid because it won't.  The
    kids in the first group vary all over the place; most will respond
    to attention and reasoning (though it may take a long time to see
    results), some will need to get a dose of hard reality before they
    get the message. 
    
    And if it's any consolation, even psychologists specialising in
    adolescents admit that where it comes to their own kids, they're no
    more an expert than anyone else is.  Raising kids is *NOT* simple.
    
    						=maggie

    For those of you that think that teenagers smoking pot is no big deal
    or doesn't warrant punishment - think again!  Regular pot smoking makes
    them drug abusers.  Drug abusers don't stop at just pot...or
    cocaine...or heroine...until it kills them or destroys their life!  I
    have seen too many go this route.  The boy needs help and
    understanding.  BUT DON'T TELL HIM IT'S OK! please. 
    
    I think the base noter did what she felt was best. It probably was the
    right thing to do. However, this alone will not solve your sons
    problems.  Once this is over, then try the suggestions of counseling
    (for both of you), talking, gaining _each others_ trust and respect. 
    
    I wish you the strength to see both of you through this.
    
    
     

    That brings up a related point.
    
    If a parent tells a child, "If you do this, the consequences will be that",
    the parent had better be prepared to follow through with the stated
    consequences.  Children do often test such statements, and if the
    consequence is not forthcoming, I believe respect diminishes.
    
    I thought .0 made the right decision to follow through on the
    consequences of breaking the agreement, given that the boy entered
    into the agreement voluntarily, and then broke the rule rather blatantly.
                                  
    

    from .11:
    "Regular pot smoking makes them drug abusers.  Drug abusers don't
    stop at just pot...or cocaine...or heroin...until it kills them
    or destroys their life!"
    
    This is a generalization.  As with all other aspects of life, there
    are specific cases and exceptions.  I am not advocating drug use
    in any way, but the above is not always the case.
    
    I have heard your opinion, Suzanne, and now you have heard mine.
    
    Thank you for listening
    
    -Jody
    

    

    Now, to respond to .0
    
    It is very good that you have someone who really cares about you
    a lot.  This is a great asset!
    
    I think you did the right thing by calling the officials.  He *had*
    been warned and (quite honestly) nobody deserves to be treated like
    a doormat - particularly not a mother.  Are either of your children
    planning to go to college?  Do they have any idea what their future
    will be?  Yes, be sensitive to them, show them you care, but make
    it perfectly clear that your requests should not be taken lightly. 
    
    If things get much worse, perhaps it would be an acceptable thing
    (after LONG thought and deliberation, of course) for you to sit
    him down and say, "Listen, you screwed up, I will tell you the rules
    again.  If you screw up in a big way again, out you go!"  There
    is a foster children program for kids who are having difficulty
    at home, they live with foster parents until things are straightened
    out.  I'm very sure you care about him a great deal.  But you have
    to decide yourself where the line should be drawn between your getting
    hurt by what your children do, and your laying down the line to
    save your own sanity although you may have to take fairly drastic
    measures.
    
    Good luck.
    
    -Jody
    

    In THEORY I agree with Mary's philosophy -- you have to look at
    the postive and work on the caring.  
    
    BUT reality doesn't match the theory.
    
    I remember when my brother was this age (not that long ago) and what he
    went through.  He was a good kid, both amoral (to borrow Maggie's term)
    and rebellious, but always kind, warm, and charming. And somewhere
    along the line he got the idea that the world was his oyster and nobody
    was ever going to hit him with the logical consequences of his actions.
    My parents, especially my mother, were old-fashioned fuddy-duddies for
    trying to teach him discipline and rules. 
    
    It took an encounter with the police very similar to the one described
    in the base note to bring him to his senses, to force him to face
    the fact that there are limits, that you can't go on flouting society's
    rules without having society retaliate.

    So -- yes, it's hard and painful.  Some of Mary's suggestions would be
    helpful in the long term.  But an eighteen-year-old isn't a toddler who
    can be sent to his or her room for fussing at supper any more.  He or
    she is an adult who has to make his or her own choices and live with
    the consequences of his or her own actions. 
    
    Just the same as we mothers do.......
    
    --bonnie

Regardless of the perceived dangers of smoking pot, I think by calling the
police, you may destroy any trust or respect your son may have had for
you.  There may be too many barriers already for you to communicate with
him, but I think you should try.  It's not worth losing someone you love
just to stand by a threat you had made in the past.

		Dave

    .11 Should have read "Regular pot smoking _may_ make them drug abusers.
    Drug abusers don't stop at just pot...or cocaine...or heroine...until
    it kills them or destroys their life!"  It was not meant as a
    generalization, I do apologize.  I wrote it with such conviction
    only because of the experience I had.
    
    I knew someone who was just a "regular pot" smoker.  At first I though
    nothing of it, I though this was normal for a college student. His
    "regular pot" smoking gave him friends that were drug dealers.  These
    drug dealers pushed their other drugs as well as pot.  His "regular
    pot" smoking turned into a regular cocaine fix.  Once I realized he was
    an addict I did try to tell his parents about his problems, but they
    just said "Oh it's just a phase he is going through - he will grow out
    of it."  Well during this phase he flunked out of school, and tried
    "crack" once - only once - he died. I cannot help but feel a
    little twinge of guilt for not trying more, but imagine how his parents
    feel. 
    
    In .11 the point I was trying to make was that this type of behavior cannot
    be passed off by parents as normal or okay or just a "stage they are
    going through" because _often_ times it is not and _may_ lead to other
    problems _depending_ on the child and the situation.   I did not
    mean in anway that this happens to all people who smoke pot.
    

Note 718.11          
Republican propaganda aside, Pot smoking doesn't lead to 
anything and it doesn't do nearly as much damage to a kid's life as time 
in jail does.  You may not want your husband to speed but do you
call the police on him when he does?  Suzanne, I grew up in the sixties.
I graduated in 1963.  EVERYONE I knew smoked pot.  Today they are
doctors and teachers and lawyers and engineers.  The fact that you
have had an unfortunate experience doesn't change years of experience
and study that I know to be valid.

Relationships are to be worked on together and the relationship between a 
parent and a teenager is no different.  People can get too hung up on control.
                                  
Note 718.9           

Make THESE KIDS open their eyes?  What will they see when they open their eyes?
Will they see insecurity, hypocracy, dispair, homelessness, war, poverty, 
dishonesty?  Will they see Boston Police officers who hold guns to the heads 
of civilians?  Will they see Israelie soldiers who kill and beat 14 year olds 
for throwing stones?  Will they see the highest politicians in our country 
telling lies and breaking the law and getting away with it?
Will they see religious leaders stealing from those people who trust them 
enough to send them money they can't afford to send them?
Will they see wealthy financial leaders so greedy and dishonest they help
trigger a stock market crash?


This generation of children spent the first half of their lives having people
say that they shouldn't have sex education in the schools and the second half
of their lives with people who wanted to start teaching them about AIDS at
eight years of age.  Life is difficult for everyone today but life is 
especially difficult for the young.  

There is a new term today called "throw away children".  These are
the children that end up in foster homes or on the run.  The foster mother 
doesn't have more understanding, or more motivation to love your child. 

The problem with most relationships today is that there is no committment.  
A committed relationship is one that you do not give up on.  You find ways to 
make things work.  You forgive.  You empathize.  You understand.  You don't 
write off those relationship that don't have quick and easy solutions for 
whatever problems may arise.  The relationship between parent and child is no 
less than that between husband and wife. It requires as much work and as much 
committment.  

    sorry about the nitpicking...
    
    On to a story which sounds similar...
    
        In high school I had a crush on a young man.  He was extremely
    rebellious, his parents were divorced, he got into skipping classes
    and smoking pot and generally emotionally stressing out his mother.
     So his mother put her foot down.
    
    She said...."enough".
    
    At 14, She sent him to live with his father, and as he was experiencing
    short term memory loss he stopped smoking pot.  He finished high
    school there, and when he returned he was much nicer to his mother.
     He understood why she had done what she did, and sympathized with
    everything she had had to put up with.
    
    Would the father be willing to take him for a while - or does he
    just not want to be bothered with the whole thing?
    
    Also - do you have any relatives he could stay with for a while
    - often the behaviors children act out on their parents are NOT
    acted out when they go to live in someone else's house.
    
    -Jody
    

    

    Disclaimer:  though I'm not (to the best of my knowledge)
    a mother with a "problem" child, I've known a lot of people
    who were problems as kids.  With that in mind I'd like to offer
    one small thought.  Though calling in the law is, I'm sure,
    an agonizing decision for a parent to wrestle with, it's at
    least worth remembering that the "seriousness" of the situation
    (in the eyes of the law) changes radically when the child
    reaches majority.  If, in fact, your son is one of the people
    who "need" and will respond well to a sort of cold slap of
    reality in the face, the "slap" delivered to a child by
    a parent in conjunction with the juvenile court system is
    a good deal gentler than the one society will administer
    to the adult.
    
    Steve

Note 718.19

    I do agree with you that relationships are to be worked on together and
    that the relationship between a parent and a teenager is no different.
    The only thing I am trying to say, perhaps I may not be making myself
    to clear, is that drug use should not be ignored by parents.  Yes, it
    should be talked about, there should be open communication, there
    should be education.  Calling the police was what the base noter felt
    was best at the time - not everyone agrees - but we all cannot judge
    her situation.  Accusing and negative replies will not help a woman
    reaching out for support and ideas. 

    I also agree with you that pot smoking doesn't itself lead to anything.
    But I do think that often times the lifestyle "may" lead to other
    addictions and parents should be aware of this. 

    I hope I am making myself clear this time.  By the way, I am not
    republican :-). 
                          

Note 718.0

    You said you have no family and that you feel you shouldn't use your SO
    for support.  Who do you have? You need someone - it is too hard to go
    it alone. You may feel stronger and more able to help your children if
    you have some type of emotional support from an AA group.  They might
    have ideas about opening the communication channels with your children.
    Counselors can help you to understand your situation, how you got in
    and how to get out.  The counselors I have seen always had this
    wonderful knack of helping me step back from the situation to get a
    better look - and oh how much clearer things can seem - and oh how many
    ideas I got for solving the situation.  You may be too blinded by
    anger, fear and love to see any type of solution - a counselor may be
    able to help you with this.  I wish I could help with more ideas.  My
    thoughts are with you and your family. 

Suzanne
                                           

    One thing is very clear:
    
    No matter what happens, YOU HAVE NOT BEEN A BAD MOTHER.
    
    You love your kids and you've done what you thought was best.  You have
    done your best with a difficult situation.  If some of your decisions
    have been wrong (and who hasn't made mistakes?) that may make you
    mistaken but it doesn't make you a bad mother.
    
    If some things in your relationship with your children need to be
    changed, that may be difficult, but it doesn't mean you're bad,
    or wrong.  It just means life changes.
    
    If you were a bad mother, you wouldn't be worried about your son.
    You could throw him out on his ear and it wouldn't bother you at
    all because you wouldn't care.
    
    If you were a bad mother, when he asked if he could move in, you
    would have said 'no' because you couldn't be bothered.
    
    Instead you've taken him in, you've loved him, and you've worked
    to help him.  That's a good mother in my book.
    
    --bonnie

    Weeel, my younger daughter (middle kid of girl girl boy set) gave me
    the devil's own hard time with her rebellion.  She did drugs, she
    cut school, she studiously broke every one of the few rules I had
    for the kids.  Punishing her did no good, talking with her did no
    good, she was convinced that she had no need to change any smallest
    thing.  Her idea of the right life was zero responsibility and
    unlimited freedom.  I finally couldn't hack it anymore and said
    "Out! Come back when you grow up."  The first time she stayed out
    for two years and came back apparently quite a bit the wiser. But I
    guess I'm an unremittingly bad influence, because after six months
    she was back to her original style and I had to say "Out!" again.
    That was two years ago and I hadn't heard a peep from her from then
    until this New Year when she sent me an "I love you" card. 
    
    Who ever knows what the future will bring?  A person can only clamp
    her teeth, do her best, and never look back. 
    
    						=maggie

    I think you did the "right" thing. No one outside of your sitation
    can really understand it all. Children are a product of their WHOLE
    environment, not ust their home enviroment. I am a divorced mother
    of 2 boys (13 and 9), and although their father is around, he usally
    does more harm than good when it comes to instilling right from
    wrong to them. There can come a time in ANY relationship when it
    is time for one person to call it quits for their own sanity's sake.
    A mother can't be good for her own children if she is not a whole
    person herself. I recently went thru a very traumatic experience
    myself, and although it was not because of my children, it affected
    them. They are younger and I'm lucky enough to still have time to
    right the wrongs that occured, but your son is old enough to take
    care of himself and it stating so in his own way. Yes he could be
    crying for "help" but it takes 2 people to communicate and try.
    This is not just a mother sone issue, but an issue about relationships
    as a whole. A sane happy mother of 1 is better than a dead (literal
    or figurativley) mother of 2. You have to take care of yourself
    and be a whole person yourself before you can help anyone else.
    I suggest support groups rather than therapy since you've tried
    that route, and don't blame yourself for your sons behavior. You
    did what you could do given all the circumstances I'm sure. Life
    isn't always fair as we all know, and there are always a million
    things we would have done different, but you are not the only one
    that created what he is today. That may sound like a cop out to
    some people, but I've seen too many examples where the parents are
    good and the kids are rotten, and vice versa. 
    	Take care of yourself - that doesn't mean you have to be selfish,
    but again, you are no good to ANYONE unless you are a whole person
    yourself. I've been a "half" person for many a year, and can now
    say I'm well on my way to being a whole person. I take care of me,
    and find more time, and more enjoyment out of taking care of my
    kids, and life in general.   
    	Don't be afraid to share your burdens with friends. That's what
    true friends are all about, and you might find you have more of
    them than you think (hopefully). Find a support group, there are
    plenty of them around, and seeing how other people in simalr
    situatuations handled things helped as well as just knowing your
    not the only one.
    	Good luck, don't give up, but stand firm!!!

    <--(.26)
    
    Trin is 24 now, and I haven't got a response yet to my response to
    the card, so it's still hard to know what our relationship will be
    next.  I'm looking forward to finding out, though.  She's a sweet
    person when she's not being a pantomime psychopath. 
    
    						=maggie

RE: .0

It is very difficult to be a seperated parent.  I am a seperated father. I know
how hard it is to handle a couple of kids by myself.  Mine are two boys 3 & 1
years.

I know how it feels when you have no support or very little.  My family is also
not in NE.  Friends and SO's can only do so much before you burn them out. 

I also feel like I am losing my relationship with my children.  I have been
having them three weekends a month, but I am not going to be able to do that any
more.  The last time I had my children, the oldest acted very wild, and
repeatedly told me 'Don't tell me what to do!'.  ***Very*** unlike him! 

I feel that this is because I have not been able to have enough time with him,
and he no longer feels like I am his father.  This is after only two weeks away
from me.  What will it be like when I can only see them for a few hours at a
time once a month for months??? 

I don't have much advice... only sympathy...  I might throw the kid out,
but I wouldn't call the cops...  I'd explain why I was doing it...

There are groups called Parents Anonamous... but I am not sure they are
applicable...

RE: .12

"I thought .0 made the right decision to follow through on the consequences of
breaking the agreement, given that the boy entered into the agreement
voluntarily, and then broke the rule rather blatantly."

I'm not sure (from .0) that that is the case.  There is a difference between
being told 'obey the rules', and 'thou shalt not smoke pot'.  There is a
difference between being told when you make the decision to move in, and being
told after the fact. 

Jim.

    I do understand, oh do I understand!
    
    Let me tell you just a little bit about a similar situation.  I
    had four children, very little money and their father was in another
    state.  Each child gave me minor problems but the youngest was the
    toughest.  He smoked pot, did not go to school, the whole nine yards.
    
    I just acted on instinct, gave him much love.  Hugs, gifts, time
    alone and the words "I love you".  First he tried to commit suicide,
    I insisted that he be hospitalized for two weeks.  He went through
    a lot during those two weeks.  When he came out he decided he would
    try to sell pot at school.  He was promptly caught and put on
    probation.  Because I felt he was trying to get his father's attention
    I refused to tell the father and swore the others to secrecy.  It
    worked to some degree.  He stopped smoking pot and attended school
    somewhat regularly after that.  
    
    There is much more to the story but the point I am trying to make
    is I gave a lot of love and he dealt with the law.
    
    There is a unit at Children's Hospital that works with families
    of children that have had experience with drugs.
    
    What would I do differently?  I would have spent more time at home
    and weathered the storm.
    
    I think we all recognize as parents that we have had some part in
    the behavior of our children and that causes guilt but what I am
    trying to learn slow but sure is they have a larger part and if
    we allow them to believe that they are victims they will never mature.
    
    

    I described the general situation to my daughter Kat, who's 14, to see
    what her reaction was, thinking she might be better able to see how a
    16-year-old felt.  (I didn't tell her the details, just the general
    situation.)  I don't know if you'll find her reaction helpful, or
    relevant, but I'll pass it on for what it's worth and if you don't
    think it applies to this situation, you can just skip it: 
    
    She said, without even hesitating, "I think he's crying for help."
    
    When I pressed her for details, she basically said that if you're
    into smoking dope, or doing other drugs, it's easy for most kids
    to keep their parents from finding out -- if he left obvious drug
    paraphenalia (I'm sure I spelled that wrong!) lying around, he wanted
    you to know he's hurting. 
    
    She said her schoolmates (we're talking eighth grade here, folks) do
    something they know they'll get thrown out of the house for a couple of
    reasons:  sometimes so they can live with the other parent or a
    grandparent, but most often because they feel so bad about themselves
    they think they don't *deserve* the love and understanding they're
    getting.  They think love is something they earn, not something you
    give. 
    
    She thought maybe it would help, if you could afford it, to take a
    vacation together for a couple of weeks somewhere you could do things
    together -- a ski trip, fishing, hiking, visiting someplace you've
    never been before -- where you could just get to know each other all
    over again. 
    
    --bonnie 

    
    I have two sons (18 & 17).  My younger son is going through a very
    tough period in his life.  He has "done" drugs, skipped school,
    quit school, stayed in his room for weeks at a time, been
    irresponsible, lied etc.,etc., and recently totaled his car.
    
    His father has not been in touch with him for about six months.
    Most of the outward problems started about that time.
    
    We have agreed to go to family therapy.  This whole episode has
    been very hard on my relationship - and on me.  
                                        
    However - I would never call the police on my son.  He's got enough
    to deal with at the moment.  I feel good about therapy for him and
    for the whole family.  It is often the only "safe" place that all
    of us can say what we need to say.  Some things are hurtful and
    often, a lot of what is said is unexpected.  
    
    I think that as a "Mother" we assume a lot of guilt in raising our
    children.  I've found - through therapy - that my assumptions are
    not correct.  Things that I feel guilty about don't seem to have
    made a lot of impact on Justin.  He has his own agenda - and it
    differs from what I would have thought it would be.  
    
    We are working things out - all of us.  It's a long slow process.
    I do recommend that as a condition of your son living with you, that you
    all go to some sort of family counseling.  Then the responsibility
    of the relationship between you is shared.  I also recommend that
    you involve your SO in the process. If this is a serious relationship
    than they need to be part of it.  Your children will be a part of
    your life for a long time - even if they don't live with you.  Your
    SO needs to deal with that fact.
    
    Good luck...and do realize that you are not alone.
    
    Flora
    

    sorry this is a continuation.  my mom turned to alcohol when lifr
    got tough for her. And i hated her for that.  But she has changed
    her life around and I admire her courage and determination.  No
    matter what your kids do you cant change them.  Get yourself
    into therapy and help yourself out.  Sit your kids down and tell
    them you love them but they have to help themselves.  they do love
    you even though you may not feel as though they do.  I will be
    hard on everyone, but things will change.  You just have to do for
    yourself what you have been trying to do for them.  Dont even
    think of killing yourself.  I tried that and running away from
    the problems only creates more.  
    
    I wish you luck and I hope this has helped a little.  Your kids
    are their own persons.  No matter what you do or say, they are
    ultimately responsible for their own lives and happiness.
    
    Please dont hesitate to write if you need an encouraging word
    be good to yourself
    michele

    Can you divide the 3 into 3 unequal chunks?
    
    Chunk 1 - work very hard at your job and get the needed stuff done
    Chunk 2 - go do followup at the PD
    Chunk 3 - go home a little early, check in, and spend some time
    doing nurturing things for you
    
    (and I wish I could always follow my own good 'advice')
    
    Holly

    re .0
    I agree with many of the people here, you did the right thing by
    calling the police.  
    
    One of my brothers has been and will always be a problem person. There
    are four of us.  Dad died when I was 1 year and the eldest was 6 or 7.
    Mom raised us on her own. 
        
    The problem brother is four years older than I.  I remember one summer
    I was home from college and we got into a verbal fight. He threatened
    me. I told him that should he raise his hand I would call the police.
    He raised his hand, did not hit me but I called the police. I wanted
    him to understand that I was serious. My entire family condemned me,
    "How could you call the cops on your brother???" Now when I tell him
    that should he act up the law will be on my side he understands that
    I'm not joking. 
    
    My mother on the other hand tried for years to show him  love and all
    the good things people mentioned here.  She took him on trips, dinners,
    the whole works.  Whatever he wanted she tried to provide. She spent
    hours and hours talking to him. She really talked to him, tried to find
    out what was on his mind.  They had family counselling together.
    However I don't think she was ever as stern as she should have been.
    She always set the rules, he always routinely broke the rules, she
    packed his bag, he pleaded and cried, she joined in crying, he promised
    to change, they made up, and then everything started over again. 
    
    Whatever you do, do not fall into that routine.  Do not let your
    son use your love for him to manipulate you. If you think your rules
    are reasonable stick to your guns. If he can't abide, let him leave.
    It will be hard at first but...
    
    Do not feel as though you've failed Parenting 101. From what you've
    said you have given it your best.  It's not up to you.  Your son
    has to want the relationship to work, also.  If the relationship
    doesn't work, your's won't be the first. And it won't be the last.
    
    Cheer up.

    
    	I think you did the right thing. I know some of the replies
    	here have said to not call the cops, but there is a time he
    	has to learn live isn't just for him and nobody else. I have
    	a old friend that was like that as a kid, always in trouble
    	giving his folks a hard time. Worse part is today he is in his
    	mid 30's and still has the same outlook, which is he can do
    	anything he wants and everyone else has to adjust to suit him.
    	Rules to him only apply to others, not him if they don't meet
    	his desires at the moment. He is the type that wouldn't blink
    	any eye in stealing something from you if he wanted it. Yet,
    	let him have something and someone steal it, then it's a different
    	matter and the cops are called right off. He also feels he has
    	the right to cut other people down and just be plain rude and
    	obnoixus(sp?), but everyone better treat him with respect and
    	kindness or he will throw a fit, I've seen this many times.
    
    	Should his folks accept the blame, I don't think so. Out of
    	eight kids he is the only like this and boy did they try with
    	him. Hey, as much as we don't like to admit it, some people
    	only think of their needs and to h&^l with anyone else. To
    	have it happen to someone in your family is even harder to
    	accept (always happens in the OTHER familys).
    
    	 If he can't learn to live with the rules you set for your
    	home, then it's time he see's just what's its like out in
    	the cruel hard world. My 16 year old gave me some problems
    	about two years ago, even then I told him he has to abide
    	by the rules. I wasn't about to let him ruin my home and
    	everyone he came in contact with. He knew I wasn't fooling
    	but still didn't think there was anything I could do to stop
    	him. Not until I called in the Police to explain what happens
    	to kids that think they make the rules.  It was hard, but
    	it did get him to stop and think.

    re .0
    
    My youngest brother is/was a "problem child".  Our parents were
    divorced when he was about 8.  Mom moved across the street and had
    another baby right away.  About 2 years later, Dad remarried, also
    had another baby, and moved to Massachusetts (Mom is in Maine still).
    Mom is convinced that Tim is dyslexic (learning disability), but
    the tests don't really bear that out.  His IQ is well above "normal"
    and his test scores have always been right up there --99th percentile.
    
    He has to date repeated two grades in school, flunked out of one
    school, been caught shoplifting (finally), seen a zillion counselors
    (with and without our parents, anywhere from twice a month to twice
    a week).  He finally graduated from high school last year (almost
    didn't make it -- D- in English) and is now at a Junior College/ 
    Technical school.  He wants to "go into management".
    
    Last time he visited our mother, he did not bathe the whole time
    he was there.  That was longer than one month, and he was 17 or
    18.  It seems he does not like baths, though showers are bearable.
    
    Some people think he's the way he is because he's got me and Nick
    in front of him and has had to "live up to" our example -- we both
    excelled academically, Nick excelled athletically, I excelled socially
    (for our family, anyway).  They think he's rebelling.
    
    Some people think he resents not being the baby any more.  He was
    conceived when Nick was dying of cancer -- he was to help my parents
    get through that loss.  For that reason, he was a "special baby"
    while my parents were going through a very, very hard time.  In
    a way, they leaned on Timmy to keep them semi-sane during Nick's
    illness.  Well Nick never died, but he was still considered special,
    the baby, until my two half-sisters were born.  They think he resents
    the loss of his privileged status.
    
    Some people think that the divorce made him feel he had to choose
    between parents and that he is overcome with resentment at the "loss"
    of our mother or with guilt at not having been loyal enough for
    one or the other parent.
    
    Some people think Timmy's nuts because my mother's nuts.
    
    Some people think we should be tough with him, provide the discipline
    he evidently cannot provide for himself.
    
    Some people think we should be extra nice to him, make sure he knows
    he is loved no matter how rotten he can be.
    
    My parents have tried just about everything.  They finally got to
    the point where they were dying for him to get old enough to move
    out and let my father, his wife, and my half-sister go back to being
    a normal family with an (almost) only child [Nick and I don't really
    count - we're more like a very close uncle and aunt to our half
    sisters.  our dad is still our dad, but our step-mother is not our
    mother -- we are not really a part of that family, though we _do_
    feel we are part of our family -- hard to explain].
    
    When it looked like Timmy was going to flunk out again, they explained
    that he had one year after that time during which he would be permitted
    to live in Dad's house.  After that time, they would not help. 
    Similarly, if he went to college, they would continue to support
    him until one year after he graduated or flunked out.
    
    When he got arrested for shoplifting, mom bailed him out and went
    with him to court.  Timmy did not want to tell Dad, but Nick said
    he'd tell him if Tim didn't.  Dad did not know about Nick's blackmail,
    and was "very proud" that Timmy told him, and happy that he did
    not have to go to jail.
    
    Now Tim is in college.  Our hopes seem to be realized, as he seems
    to have gotten over his apathetic, terminally lazy, self-hating
    attitude.  He is active -- or appears to be.  It looks like he's
    turning into a normal human being.  Personally, I was afraid nothing
    except maybe the military would shock him out of whatever was
    happening.
    
    My attitude, and I suppose Nick's and my half-sister (on my dad's
    side), has been pretty unsupportive of him.  I don't understand
    Tim, probably never will.  I hope he and I get to a point where
    we get along like I do with Nick, but it took a long time with Nick
    and me and I don't think it'll be any faster with Tim.
    
    My father and step-mother have been incredible during the last few
    years.  How they have any love left for the boy, I don't know. He has
    actively done everything he could think of to destroy his and their
    life.  Even the way he got kicked out of school -- my dad is a teacher,
    for whom cheating is an example of one of the basest and stupidest
    things a student can do.
    
    Nothing worked.  My advice is what my parents did -- make _your_
    rules for _your_ house and punish him when he breaks them.  He won't
    stop breaking them, but the punishment will keep it all to a minimum.
    Let him know EGGZACTLY what it costs to live by himself, and that
    YOU will not provide the money if he moves out.  He can leave and
    live by himself with no help or hindrance from you, or he can stay
    and obey your rules until it is time for him to leave.
    
    And pray he grows up and leaves your house soon.
    
    Lee

    
    Well, here's my 2c. (I keep *telling* people if they'd just
    *listen* to ME, everything would be much better!) :-)
    
    I have no children. I *did* teach about 4000 adolescents in my time.
    
    It sounds to me like this young man is out of control. The pot thing
    is somewhat of a red herring, in that it's only a symptom. Trust
    me. *Nobody* who's looking to get away with smoking pot leaves
    The Telltale Evidence where it can be found. He *is* crying for
    attention, but I think with all that's gone before, he's just as
    likely to reject the very thing he wants when it's offered.
    
    Al-ANon is good. Family counselling, however, is something I would
    suggest that you consider. IF he won't go, go yourself. I think
    he needs to know that you love him and you are there for him. BUT
    that you love him enough to want him to be a productive member of
    the species. That you love him enough to care about what he does
    to himself.  That you love him enough to allow him to be responsible
    for his own actions.
    
    AND: That you love yourself enough to TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF.
    
    Please do.
    
    --DE
    

RE: .37

"One of my brothers has been and will always be a problem person."

You get what you expect.

I believe that there is a middle ground between calling the police, and letting
your children routinely get away with breaking rules.  You can stop being
manipulated without involving the police.  

If I were in that situation (.0), I am sure that calling the police will evoke a
feeling of betrayal, that you prefered to get rid of the problem (and me!),
rather then work out the problem with me.

Jim.

    re .42
    
�    If I were in that situation (.0), I am sure that calling the police
�    will evoke a feeling of betrayal, that you prefered to get rid of the
�    problem (and me!), rather then work out the problem with me. 
    
    After you've worked on the problem for years, with things getting
    worse instead of better, you _do_ want to get rid of the person
    and the problem.
    
    And you feel like a horrible [mother/father/brother/sister] for
    wanting that.  It's almost worse than facing the fact that you have
    been TOTALLY unable to fix the problem.
    
    When a person, even an adolescent, is continually lying, never
    following through on promises (even when you did not ask for a
    promise), and seems to take every opportunity to destroy what trust
    you have left in them, you come to resent them greatly.
    
    After enough lies, all you want is for the person to GO AWAY and
    betray SOMEONE ELSE.
    
    Lee

    I have to back Lee up on this one.  
    
    You reach a point where you finally realize that, while you can
    offer help, YOU CANNOT LIVE THE OTHER PERSON'S LIFE FOR HIM and
    you CANNOT FIX HIS LIFE IF HE DOESN'T WANT TO FIX IT HIMSELF.  
    
    Of course you should try to work out the problem WITH him.  But it
    takes TWO to work out a problem in a relationship, and if one of you is
    working and the other one is taking, well, that's exploitation and at
    some point you have to call it quits. 
    
    We have to show compassion for each other, yes, but there's nothing
    about compassion that says you have to be a doormat for a selfish
    person who is only interested in what he can get out of you.

    --bonnie

I'm not saying that sometimes that throwing the person out is not the answer.
But, you can do that without involving the Police.  In fact, I think that in
this case that *might* be the answer.  *But* *I* would not involve the Police. I
was trying to put myself in his place, and saying how I might feel in his place.

Jim.

    re .44
    
    I agree, it takes TWO to work out a problem, but sometimes both
    can be working, but in different directions. That's why there are
    more than two people on this earth, to help each other out, so now
    is the time to get someone else involved (police, support groups,
    whatever) so maybe the two can get back on the same track.
    
    I don't think anybody is giving up or condeming here, just trying
    for the best solution in the not-so-best circumstances. You do your
    best, that's all you can do, and pray it is right.
    
    But, at least one person of the two must be strong and together,
    so don't break down what commnications are there, but take care
    of you to make yourself strong, so you can them help him to be strong!!
    
    You can take care of yourself without ignoring him. Maybe you should
    try sharing some of your own problems/events/etc with him in the
    hopes the confidence will be returned. That is a technique that
    I use with many people, many times and usually it works. Share yourself
    (good and bad) and then the have the trust to share with you. Show
    trust and respect, get trust and respect. Although the results may
    not be immediate, it can help. That doesn't mean moan and complain,
    just share thoughts/experiences/etc.
    
    We ALL wish you luck and success!!!
    
    No need to tell you not to give up, you obviously don't intend to!

    re: 43,44
    
    You seem to be projecting your own negative experiences with your
    brothers here and forgetting that the base note is about a problem
    between a parent and a child. A sixteen year-old is still a child
    legally and, most often, emotionally. It is a sign of emotional
    health to not allow yourself to be continually abused in a relationship
    but certainly one makes different allowances based on the closeness
    of the relationship.  I would be quick to write off a new friend
    who was hurting me, less quick to write off an old friend, and I
    can't imagine writing off my children no matter what the circumstance
    (and, yes, one of them is a teenager).  The teenage years seem to
    be universally difficult to one degree or another.  If it was
    standard practice for parents to refuse to put up with selfish 
    teenagers then most of us would have been camping out on the streets
    at puberty.
    
    Also, I don't think it is ultimately helpful to involve the law
    in parent/child problems; much better to seek a therapist.
    
    Sue
    

    Teenagers don't spring from an egg fully grown.  They are raised
    and taught and trained by parents.  Problems seldom appear in
    untroubled children when they hit puberty.  
    
    Discipline should be established long before a child reaches puberty.  
    As they get older, trust, mutual-respect and self-discipline should already
    be a part of the parent/child relationship.   
    
    Turning a child out of your home under the legal age (17 or 18 I
    believe) ut is legally defined as child abuse or neglect and can
    be prosecuted as such.  Check with the social services or with
    the police to be sure but this is how the law was explained to me
    by a social worker who was dealing with a teenager that was also
    told to get out by his father and who ended up living with me for
    awhile until the social services worker told his father that he
    would be prosecuted unless he took him back and worked at solutions.
    Just be aware that anyone can pick up a phone and call the local
    Child Abuse Hotline or the police and this is a prosecutable offense.
    
    

    Re .49
    
    Yes, putting a 17 year old out of your house may be considered neglect,
    but there are ways to do it.  All that is required to avoid the
    abuse and neglect charges is to turn the child over to DSS who will
    put him or her in a foster home.  I don't believe the process is
    that difficult, and it solves the problem of removing the disruptive
    teen from your household while being sure that he or she is being
    taken care of (in the foster home).   I know someone who was given
    away to the state at around 12 or 13, and it actually turned out
    to be the best thing his parents could have done for him.  He ended
    up turning around and becoming a responsible adult.  He even went
    to college which was a tremendous step given what kind of a high-school
    student he was.
    
    I guess the point that I am trying to make is that a parent does
    have choices, and giving a child to the state to go into a foster
    home should not be looked at as failure or a terrible thing to do
    as a parent.  It can have some very positive affects on the child
    involved and may actually be the best thing for him.
    
    Cathy

re: .49
    
    Mary, what state are you in?  A 16-year-old girl I know who was
    thrown out by her father because he didn't like her boyfriend was
    told she had no recourse since she was old enough to work in NH.
    
    She's now living with her mother in Virginia, so the point's moot,
    but I'd like to know if I should push it the next time I run into
    a similar situation.
    
    And I expect it will happen again.  Since Kat hit junior high, her
    quite ordinary bunch of friends has run up a score of two abortions,
    one baby, two or three attempted suicides, several suspensions for
    drinking on the school grounds, and an uncounted number of incidents in
    which the kid spent the night somewhere else because of a fight with
    parents.  And these are the traditional middle-class
    professional/business families.  When she talks about the problems
    being faced by kids from troubled families and difficult economic
    situations, it's enough to turn your hair white overnight. 

    Teenagers are raised and taught and trained, yes, but their parents
    aren't the only influence on them and not all the troubles the kids
    have are learned from their parents.  Social pressures, unsympathetic
    teachers, unrealistic self-images, relations with siblings and other
    relatives, all play a role.  They grow and change and feel in ways that
    the parents can neither predict nor influence. 
    
    Kids aren't automated blocks of clay that we shape to suit ourselves
    and then wind up and send out in the world to repeat our lessons, good
    or bad.  They are *independent people* searching for their own way to
    live and coming to their own terms with their own needs and society's
    obligations.   They make different decisions than I would have made
    because they are not the same people I am. 
    
    Problems?  Everybody has problems, and teenagers are part of
    'everybody.'   If we as parents have given our kids a good grounding of
    love, respect, self-esteem, and self-discipline, the kids will be more
    likely to work through their problems creatively and come through
    difficult times better, whether those problems strike at 12, at 20, or
    at 60.  It doesn't guarantee they'll never have problems. 
     
    --bonnie

    
    
    I live in Massachusetts, I called the police on my daughter Greta
    18 months ago.  We went to court, she lived with my parents for
    3 months, her father for another 3 months then quit school and
    lived on her own until last month when she moved back in with me.
    
    The following is a quote from her about the base note.
    
    "Call the police he is breaking the law and should know what can
    happen when you break the law."
    
    Greta has a long way to go cleaning up her life but she is working
    on it.  If we had not gone the route we did I doubt that either
    of us would be here reading notes.  
    
    The choices of a single mother are not easy but you can not live
    for your children, you have to live for yourself first and then
    be there for them.  BUT never as a doormat.
    
    _peggy
    		(-)
    		 |
    			Living one day at a time is no way to live
    			your life but sometimes it is the only way
    			to survive.
    

    DISCLAIMER: I do not have teenage children and I am not a parent.
    BUT:	I am human.      
    
    To date, there are 53 people who are pushing for you.  In any
    decision you make, live by it, stand firm, bite the bullet through
    the pain.  We are all behind you.  
    
    If anything goes wrong, then it goes wrong.  What matters is that
    you live by your rules and you are true to yourself.  Children are
    born into this world without morals, standards, norms.  It is up
    to the parent to teach them these things.  Compromising your values
    will only show the child that morals, standards, norms can be
    compromised and therefore cannot be considered as morals, standards,
    norms.  Loving a child, bringing up a child, does not mean that
    you cannot get tough.  You have to call the cops because you told
    him you would.  But try to get him back as soon as possible, I don't
    know, post bail or something.  What's that phrase ?  "This is going
    to hurt me more than it hurts you ...".  Just hope that one day
    your son will appreciate what a great mother you are.
    
    <DANIEL>
    

    Cross posted from the psychology notes file with the author's
    permission.    Holly
    
              <<< TERZA::DISK$USERDISK:[NOTES$LIBRARY]PSYCHOLOGY.NOTE;1 >>>
                           -< Topics in Psychology >-
================================================================================
Note 22.0                        PARENTING TEENS                      10 replies
STARCH::MARVIN "Recovery is for LIFE"                38 lines  12-FEB-1988 12:35
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This topic is an opportunity to share our resources on parenting
    teens.
    
    Here is a common scenario.  Frank, now 16 years old, has become
    secretive, lurks in his room, doesn't talk much and, when he does
    uses a lot of monosyllabic grunts that neither reflects his age
    or intelligence.  He stays up late and gets up in the morning only
    after being called several times.  He is frequently late for school.
    
    He seems to like to dress in tatters and has been talking about
    getting an earring.  He plays weird music, loudly and continually,
    and grumbles (sometimes with four-letter words) when asked to turn
    it down.
    
    His room is a disaster and he picks it up, sort of, if enough pressure
    is put on him.  Soon, however, it is back to where it was.
    
    He does very little to help out around the house, although he promises
    over and over, usually after a loud confrontation which leaves noone
    feeling good.
    
    He wants to come and go without telling anyone where he is off to
    and when he is coming home.  He sometimes lies about where he is
    or has been.  Sometimes he stays out all night and then is
    argumentative when he comes home.  He accuses parents of prying,
    of not trusting him, and not treating him according to his age.
    
    Frank's parents "have tried everything."  Nothing seems to work
    and he is just more and more rebellious.
    
    Mom and Dad remember Frank when he was about 8 years old as quite
    different.  Frank, then, was loving, obedient, clean, helpful, did
    his chores without fuss, etc.  His parents never suspected that
    their son was about to undergo such an unpleasant metamorphosis.
    
    Sound familiar to anyone out there?  To be continued.
    
    Jack
================================================================================
Note 22.1                        PARENTING TEENS                         1 of 10
STARCH::MARVIN "Recovery is for LIFE"                69 lines  12-FEB-1988 14:10
                                -< What to do? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Here is some of my thinking about parenting teens.  I would appreciate
    your thoughts.
    
    In the transformation from "nice" child to teenager, the message
    comes across clearly that the old ways of relating between teen
    and parent are no longer acceptable to the teen.
    
    The war has been declared.  It is a war for CONTROL.  The parents see
    their child as out of their control and feel threatened and puzzled by
    the changes. 
    
    Frequently parents will begin to pose new and more severe restrictions
    and limitations using such methods as grounding, i.e. "You can't
    go out for two weeks.  You can't have the car.  No TV until your
    homework is done."
    
    Other parents just give up or ignore what is going on.  Some feel
    uninvolved, many just decide they are helpless or don't know what
    to do.  In such instances the teen's behavior frequently gets worse.
    
    In these control struggles, I will always bet on the kid to win. Most
    parents don't like that idea.  They usually are determined not to let
    their kid "become one of those."  However, if the parents do join in
    the battle for control OR just ignore what is happening, the situation
    deteriorates with parents caught in angry impotence. 

    What can be done?
    
    First the parents can acknowledge that they are locked in a battle
    for control and that they are losing.
    
    Secondly, the parents can come to acknowledge that what has seemed
    to be a win-lose situation is actually a lose-lose situation.  While
    the teen may seem to be winning, the parents will see that slipping
    grades, getting into trouble, etc. are all indicators that their
    child may be permanently damaged in the process.
    
    When the parents are very clear about the first two steps, it is
    time to talk to the child.  The talk has to start with a reassurance
    that the parents love the child AND that they are aware that the
    way they (parents) have been behaving is not creating satisfaction
    in their lives and, they might expect, for the child.
    
    That the parents acknowledge to the child a willingness to cease
    participating in the control struggle is vital to this process.
    They have got to mean it.  Of course there will be times when the
    old behaviors will occur; afterall, old habits are hard to break.
    However, the intention to disengage from control battles has to
    be clear along with a willingness to look at behavior to see if
    the old control stuff is showing up again.
    
    What may be extremely difficult is for the parents to accept that
    the child has the ultimate control.  However when they do that and
    share that knowledge with the child, the ball is clearly in the
    child's court.
    
    The question then becomes whether or not the teen is willing to
    let go of his/her efforts to control.  It has to be the teen's
    decision. There is no way of forcing that decision that I know of.
    However, if the child is willing to look at the prices that she/he
    has been paying in order to beat the parents, she/he may soon be
    ready to get off controlling behavior.
    
    It takes time and frequently requires a good therapist or counselor
    to support the family.  The cost in money may be well worth it;
    afterall, the family's well-being and a child's future is at stake.
    
    Jack

    I think your question can only be answered on an individual basis
    since it has to do with values.
    
    

    I expected no more from my children then I expected from myself.
    
    They had some problems, I had some problems.  Somehow this philosophy
    worked.
    
    

    Joyce, what a wise mother you are . . . I'm going to write this
    one down in large letters and post it over my desk for when I start
    being too demanding of both myself and my kids.
    
    --bonnie

    re. 55
    
    -< what is the minimum a parent should demand from their children?
    
    Respect...with it come many rewards.

    Re: .21 the basenoter                              
    
    > Alot of my identity is through my role as a mother.  Have I been such a
    > failure, the hate and disrespect I feel at times from both my daughter
    > and son is overwhelming at times.  I wanted to hear how others have
    > dealt with such feelings of "rejection" for lack of a better word.
    
    Sometimes you can get so close to a situation that you can't see
    something that is obvious.  Although your children have caused you
    great pain be sure that you understand one thing....THE REASON FOR
    THEIR BEHAVIOR IS *NOT* TO MAKE YOU FEEL BAD ABOUT YOURSELF AS A
    MOTHER.  The biggest challenge that you may have is to try to keep
    your own bruised ego from coloring your interpretations of your son's
    actions.  Instead of feeling "He did that to hurt me" and wanting
    to hurt him back you may be able to see that he had some other
    reason that has nothing to do with you.
    
    It's perfectly natural to try to find someone to blame, whether it's
    yourself or your son.  Try to move past blame and work on solving
    the problems instead.
    
    						MJC O->

    RE: .60 / .21
    
    <Speaking as a non-parent, who has known around 4 thousand teenagers>
    
    Teenagers are a breed apart. I wouldn't be 13 again for all the
    money in the world (uhm...let me rephrase that...:-) ) - It would
    take a LOT for me to go back and be 13 again! Teenagers are engaged
    mostly in activities that involve "breaking away" from the parents.
    And there are a lot of things said and done by both parties, I'll
    wager, that will be regretted by both when the process is over.
    
    I look at parenting as beginning the instant the kid is born. If
    you wait any longer, you are doomed. The "raising" continues through
    (I'll call it childhood) to about 12, 13, 14 - in that ballpark.
    And as me wise auld mither would say "If they don't have it by 13,
    they're never gonna *get* it." And from my years of teaching, the
    ol' gal was right. 
    
    During teen-age, I think most parents can just hang on and trust
    that they did their best when it counted, and when the hormones
    settle down, and the kid has begun to settle into the world, the
    dust settles and lo and behold there's this PERSON to whom you can
    relate once again.
    
    Wasn't it MArk Twain who said (something like) "I always thought
    my father was stupid - I was amazed at how smart he became when
    I turned 21!"
    
    --DE
    

    Re .0
    
    I too was a single parent with 5 of 7 children still at home.  When
    my 14 year old daughter became involved with drugs and verbal abuse,
    I tried everything I could think of to reach out to her, and felt
    very much like a failure when I couldn't seem to reach a middle
    ground where we could both feel comfortable.  Since I had 4 children
    who were youger than she, I was very worried that my teenager would
    have an adverse effect on their behavior.  Eventually, I got the
    courage to say, "Either you follow the rules of the house, or you
    leave."  She glared at me, but agreed.  Within a short period of
    time, we were back to the old routine, so I kicked her out.  She
    has, quite frankly, always been one of the children with whom I
    felt the closest, so sticking to my decision tore me apart, BUT
    I DID IT!  My daughter moved in with two friends, dropped out of
    junior high school, lied about her age, and found a waitressing
    job.  I heard from her several weeks after she had stormed out of
    the house.  Her attitude had totally changed.  One of the first
    things she said was, "Mom, I never knew the price of toilet paper!
    I never knew what it was like for you.  How do you manage to keep
    all of us fed and dressed, plus pay for rent?  You know, you don't
    need to go around feeling guilty about what's happened.  When I
    screw up in school, my teacher doesn't say, 'I'm a bad teacher because
    you refused to learn', she says, 'I tried to teach you, but you
    refused to learn.  You blew it!' so why should you say 'I'm a bad
    parent because you didn't follow what I tried to tell you?'  You
    tried to be my mother, and I wouldn't let you.  I'm the one who
    blew it!"  
    
    Today, this daughter is happily married, with a delightful baby
    boy, and we are closer than ever.  Throughout all the bad times,
    we still made efforts to communicate.  Be tough, but be caring,
    and consider professional help or a support group to see you through
    the hard times.
    
    Best of Luck!
    
    -Barb

    The moderators have found it necessary to remove all information in
    this string that identifies the base-note author. Unfortunately, we
    can't "fix up" notes after they've been entered, so we've deleted all
    notes with this information. The content of those notes, however, is
    important, so I've included them (with the author's permission, and
    with identifying details removed) after the formfeed. 
    
    Liz Augustine
    comoderator    
    

================================================================================
Note 718.0           HELP for a Single Mother of Teen-Agers           62 replies
node::anonymous                                      64 lines  10-FEB-1988 09:35
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I have got to get some of this off of my chest before I start my
    work day.  I sincerely hope that someone will read this and off
    me some words of advice or encouragement.  Here goes:
    
    I am a woman in my early 40"s who has been divorced for 6 years,
    my two teen-age children live with me.  The past years have been
    disruptive for all of us.  In fact some of it has been very UGLY
    and I'm ashamed of those times.  I am slowly overcoming the guilt
    that is associated with all of that.  Anyway, I have come to the
    conclusion that my children have lost all love and respect for me.
    This of course causes me a great deal of pain.  My daughter is 18
    and my son is 16, there father has thrown both of them out of his
    home and has not been in contact with either one for over a year.
    He lives in the next town.  I feel a fair amount of bitterness over
    this because at times I need his help.  He even has an unlisted
    phone number.  Yes he pays child support for the 16 year old but
    the emotional and fatherly support is just not there.  I have no
    love for this man, I instigated the divorce, but I have no family
    in N.H. and feel very alone when the "____ hits the fan".  I use
    the current man in my life as an emotional support for me but he
    really can't get involved with my 2 "darlings".  He's too emotionally
    involved with me and sees the hurt and pain that they cause me.
    
    I have wanted desperately for all of us to live together happily
    and be a real family.  But I guess I have to face the facts that
    because of past events this is just not going to occur.  
    
    My son is the real problem now.  My daughter has put her time in
    at putting me through HELL.  He has been a "troubled Youth" since
    he was 11 years old.  He dropped out of school this past September
    and lived with a former lover of mine who is now his employer (does
    this sound like a soap opera?)  At Thanksgiving time he asked to
    come back and live with me and return to school.  I said yes under
    certain conditions, basically that he obey my rules.  Well, he has
    not.  When I got home last night there was a "bowl" (used for pot
    smoking) and marijuana seeds on the dining room table.  I've known
    that he has been a drug user for quite some time, I had warned him
    that if I find anymore evidence of this behavior, I would notify
    the police.  Therefore, last evening I called the Juvenile Officer
    in our town.  He wasn't there but will call me at work today.  I
    know I've done the right thing, but what happens now.  My son already
    has a court case that's pending in the District Court.
    
    I'd like to know how other mothers have dealt with similar situations.
    I know that I'm not alone.  I am in a very stressful and depressed
    state right now.  I am afraid for my emotional health.  Last March
    I made a very weak attempt at suicide because of just such "scenes".
    I've suffered "mild" nervous breakdowns also in the past year. 
    I'm beat.  On the surface I look and do just fine.  I have a good
    job, a good man and am healthy.  I am very athletic and have a
    wholesome and usually cheerful outlook on life.  But when these
    events occur I go down the "Black Hole".  I need some help, some
    good support.  I've been to many theapists and to a ToughLove meeting.
    Nothing seems to help.  I really Love this 2 Kids and it breaks
    my heart at the way they treat me---this is pure emotional abuse.
    The mood I'm in now is one where I will tell them to move out, get
    out of my life so that I can be happy.  Is this selfish or is this
    what they need to hear.
    
    I thought that I would feel better after writing this but I don't.
    Hope I can stay busy today, so that this ugliness can be erased.
    
    I'd love to hear from anyone out there....
    
    
================================================================================
Note 718.16          HELP for a Single Mother of Teen-Agers             16 of 62
MEWVAX::AUGUSTINE                                     8 lines  10-FEB-1988 14:13
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    apropos several...
    gentle reminder from your moderator:
    
    Ms anonymous has asked for support and constructive ideas. This is
    not an appropriate place for judgemental appraisals or nit-picking.
    
    Thanks
    Liz Augustine
    
    
================================================================================
Note 718.21          HELP for a Single Mother of Teen-Agers             21 of 62
node::anonymous                                      28 lines  10-FEB-1988 14:56
                                  -< THANKS >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I would like to thank everyone for their replies be they supportive
    or critical.  When I get the time, I will try to respond to everyone
    who I feel would like a response.
    
    I'd also like to thank the Moderator for her concern.  Yes, I asked
    for support but I also got some debates going on.  That's really
    O.K.  I need to hear all sides of this matter.  I of all people
    do not want to do harm to my children.
    
    RE:  .4  Weren't you just alittle bit harsh.  It's "a minor thing"  that
    my son is literally tearing the family apart while also doing harm
    to himself, come on now.  He's doing a pretty good job of "destroying
    his life" already he doesn't need any help from me or the police.
    Also, "that there are No adults he can depend on or trust" WOW, do you 
    know how to hit below the belt.  You, who knows absolutely nothing of what
    has occurred nor how hard I have tried to help him.  Someone mentioned
    doormat and that is exactly what this situation has turned into.
    
    As I was driving in this morning I thought:  I'll submit a note to
    WOMANNOTES so that I could get some good insights from Woman, woman
    who care and who want to be helpful.  I also felt horrible.  Alot
    of my identity is through my role as a mother.  Have I been such a
    failure, the hate and disrespect I feel at times from both my daughter
    and son is overwhelming at times.  I wanted to hear how others have
    dealt with such feelings of "rejection" for lack of a better word.
    
    Thanks to all of those noters who meet my expectations.
      
    
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Note 718.26          HELP for a Single Mother of Teen-Agers             26 of 62
node::anonymous                                       3 lines  10-FEB-1988 15:42
                   -< you've helped me twice today, thanks >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Thanks, how old is your daughter now and what is the relationship
    like.  If you don't mind me asking.
    
    
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Note 718.35          HELP for a Single Mother of Teen-Agers             35 of 62
node::anonymous                                      38 lines  11-FEB-1988 10:39
                              -< "It's me again" >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Everyone has been so helpful and now I need some more advice.  "Chip"
    did not come home last night nor did I call the police.  The officer
    never called me at work yesterday but I did call again this morning
    and am once more waiting for him to call back.  I really just want
    some information from him, like what will happen if I do report
    my son's usage of illegal drugs in my home.
    
    The school just called and said that Chip is not in school, I was
    a little surprised because he did seem to be putting an effort in
    that direction.  He had been suspended a week ago and after a meeting
    with his principal and myself, he promised to "obey the rules".
    I spoke to his teachers at an Open House recently and they all just
    "love the kid".  Chip is quite a charmer and when he wants to he
    has a personality that people like to be around.  Anyway....
    
    What am I to do now----he could be consisdered a "runaway"  I'm
    mildly worried.  He's pulled this tricks many times before.
    
    <--(.31) the advice about the vacation was wonderful and I am seriously
    considering it.
    
    I just spoke to my SO and I am trying to involve him but it's
    difficult.  He went through a bad 2nd marriage where 3 teen-age
    girls were a bone of contention between him and the wife.  There
    were other problems too, but he's carrying around that excess baggage.
    
    I can not be unproductive at work today, like I was yesterday. 
    But I can't seem to shake this.  Should I go home and look for him,
    should I visit the PD or should I throw myself into my job.  If
    I go home and he's there, we may talk or we may not, depending on
    his mood and then I will feel put out because of the drive and the
    time out of work.  I live in NH and work in Marlboro, this is not
    an easy jaunt.  However I do have an appointment in Nashua at 1.
    
    Please forgive me for carrying on so, but everyone has been so helpful.
    
    					a
    
    
================================================================================
Note 718.41          HELP for a Single Mother of Teen-Agers             41 of 62
node::anonymous                                      15 lines  11-FEB-1988 13:24
                               -< Here I go!!! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I feel much stronger now and much more sure that what I am doing
    is right.  I am leaving for my appointment and then the Police Dept.,
    if the officer I need to see is there.  Dealing with our legal system
    can be very frustrating.  
    
    I know that I only feel so confident that what I am doing is right
    because of all the good advice I have gotten from this notesfiles.
    A million thanks.
    
    Please believe me, those who advised not going to the PD, I heard
    you and took your comments to heart.  I am going to try real hard
    to communicate in a more effective way with Chip.  Yes, you are
    right I've been burned so much by him that I have developed a negative
    attitude.  I will try to be more positive, difficult that it may
    be.