Conference turris::womannotes-v1

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TRCO01::GAYNE "Cappucino anyone?"                    25 lines   2-FEB-1988 14:14
                                -< Am I wrong? >-
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    This topic brings up an issue of some contention between myself
    and almost everyone else, including my wife.
    
    I have been resisting letting my 5� year old daughter wear dresses
    on most occasions, mostly going to school, playing outside or at
    the park etc. My (good) intentions are for her not to be stereotyped
    in any way. I was turned off at the beginning when it appeared to
    me that she was being treated like a toy doll, the little girl both
    sets of grandmothers were just dying to get their hands on.
    
    I really want her to grow up in a neutral environment with respect
    to what little girls vs. little boys are supposed to do, grow up
    as etc. She does love to wear dresses however. We have struck a
    bargain where she wears them 3 days a week.
    
    Needlsess to say my wife, mother, mother-in-law and most other people
    think I'm stubborn, rotten and wrong. My wife actually sort of agrees
    with my reasons but can't really take the tremendous peer pressure
    to have our little girl be as pretty as everyone elses.
    
    Anyway, what do you say? Am I rotten? I want to do the right thing
    but I want to make sure she understands that there shouldn't be
    things that boys do vs. things that girls do.
    
    /Les

    
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MEWVAX::AUGUSTINE                                     7 lines   2-FEB-1988 14:29
                             -< dressing up kids >-
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    I had similar battles with my mother when I was young. I wanted
    to wear dresses (moi? there must have been a swap with some other
    child) and she wanted me to wear more rugged clothes. Our compromise
    was that I wore pants to school and then changed into a dress when
    I got home.
    
    e

    
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SUPER::HENDRICKS "The only way out is through"       26 lines   2-FEB-1988 15:50
                                -< me too, Liz >-
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    I had the same problem.  I went to a private school for nursery
    school and kindergarten.  I was a tomboy and got constantly dirty
    and ripped everything I wore.  My mother opted for short hair and
    corduroys at that stage other than for holidays and Sunday school.
    
    I don't think I would have cared personally, but the other girls
    in kindergarten teased me horribly because I wasn't all dolled up
    in a frilly dress, white socks, and mary janes.  I wanted
    desperately to be accepted, and begged and begged to dress like
    the other girls.  My mother kept telling me I couldn't climb the
    jungle gym, and do other rugged things, and managed to scare me
    into wearing pants again.  Later on she told me how hard it was
    to keep me in school clothes.  
    
    I think it was a major factor in being accepted.  One other girl
    started a 'game' in which the girls all said to me, "Aren't you
    really a boy?".  It felt awful.  After that year I started insisting
    on long hair (which my mother gave into as long as it stayed braided),
    and felt much better about my identity.
    
    I think if I had a daughter I would make sure she had plenty of
    comfortable clothes spanning a wide range of frilly to rugged, and
    basically let her choose.  
                                                      
    Holly
    

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MSD36::STHILAIRE "Food, Shelter & Diamonds"          14 lines   2-FEB-1988 15:57
                         -< I think so...bossy anyway >-
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    Re .36, I disagree with you, too.  Why does a non-sexist upbringing
    mean that little girls can't wear pretty dresses?  If you had a
    son would you refuse to let him wear pants?  I don't think equality
    has to mean that all human beings have to take on masculine
    characteristics.  Dressing up baby girls in pretty clothes *is*
    sort of like playing with live dolls and I loved dressing up my
    daughter when she was a baby.  Of course, now that she's 14 she
    wears whatever she wants - usually jeans.
    
    Why does a non-sexist society mean everybody has to be a man - how
    about men in drag as a new fashion fad?
    
    Lorna
    
    

    I think that both big and little people should (on most occasions)
    be able to decide for themselves what to wear... within reason of
    course... we wouldn't want to see any little three year olds with
    safety pins in their noses_:-)

I wore both.  I don't remember what I wore to school, but I had a lot of 
Danskins (shirts and pants made of soft, but reasonably sturdy material), 
and I loved to climb trees, etc.  Every Easter I got a new frilly dress
and hat.  I loved it.

For our daughter to be (if not this baby, some day we should have one),
we have gotten both frilly dresses and pants.  For our rough and tumble
neice, we get lots of overalls and other sturdy clothes.  I like choices.

                Carol

    Carol,  I like choioces, too.  And I'm so glad we have them!  This
    whole discussion would never have occurred a generation ago...
    
    One of my most painful memories of grade school:
    
    There was a girl in my third grade class who was slightly mentally
    handicapped.  Children are cruel, and she took more than her share
    of taunting.  I grew up in Vermont, where winters are bitterly cold.
    One particularly cold day, this girl showed up dressed in a sweater
    and snowpants, quite reasonable, considering that we had to walk
    to our bus stops, then wait in the cold for up to half an hour.
    After we got into class, the teacher stood her up front of the class
    and BERATED her for fifteen minutes for showing up out of dress
    code - girls were not allowed to wear pants!  The poor child was
    in tears, and her classmates got some bad messages:
     
    	- It's ok to taunt this girl; the teacher does it.
    
    	- Girls are expected to dress according to society's expectations,
          regardless of how impractical the conforming dress may be.
    
    I *am* glad we have the choice!
    
    Rita
    

    I have always preferred casual clothing to dressy, especially when
    in informal surroundings. The high point of my grade-school life
    was "gym day," when we were allowed to wear pants *all morning*
    because there wasn't any place to change clothes for gym. We did
    have to go home for lunch and put our dresses back on, though.
    
    As soon as I reached college I stopped wearing dresses, and haven't
    worn them other than as costumes or for formal occasions since then.
    Once I decided that clothing was nearly *always* some form of
    costuming, I stopped fretting about it - if I had to take a job
    that required a certain style of clothing (and if I couldn't talk
    'em out of it!) I would probably wear that "uniform" without complaint.
    But I'll still wear my cords and flannel shirts on my own time.

    I would love to see teachers encourage "valuing differences" when
    it comes to things like clothing styles. Instead of making any one
    thing the standard, the reaction should be "isn't that interesting,"
    or "that looks comfortable," etc. [Of course, Miss Manners is of
    the opinion that young people need to rebel somehow, and if they
    can't get a rise out of parents and teachers by dressing oddly,
    they may choose a more destructive method. Perhaps, in the interest
    of safety, one should manage a refined shriek when confronted by
    a 13-year-old dressed like Madonna.]

    -b

    When I was a kid, I wore "play clothes" (dungarees, t-shirts, etc)
    after school and on weekends. Dresses to school (no choice back
    then) and for "Dress-up".
    
    My freshman year at Boston University women *had* to wear skirts
    on campus or 1st floor of dorms. Unless, of course, it was
    below 15 degrees or we were going ice skating or something. You
    got a written "slack permission" from the Resident Doo-hickey
    (or whatever they called her). *BIG* changes happened between
    1965 and 1968!
    
    I'd try to follow the inclinations of the kid herself. I always
    got *clothes-yuk* for gifts from certain relatives (lacy dresses
    and stuff - bleeaahh! Give me Western boots and blue jeans!)
    and HATED it! Thank heaven now there are lots of nice slacks and
    stuff that kids can wear almost anywhere (adults too! yay!).
    If she liked skirts and dresses, I'd get those....and mostly just
    try to instill an idea of what *types* of clothes to keep for
    dress and what to wear for casual, sandbox, or mudpile.
    
    --DE
    

    I don't think twice about women dressing in flannels and jeans OR
    in dresses.  I agree with Carol, that it is great to have a *choice*.
    
    But the flip side is, what about boys dressing in traditionally
    female clothing?  Not so much in style (skirts, etc), but colors,
    like pinks or pastels.
    
    I bring this up because I was buying clothing for my unborn
    child - to be on the safe side I bought red, blue and even grey.
    There were some very nice shirts in pink and some neat looking
    overalls with a floral print that I hesitated (and eventually
    did not buy) in the event that I have a boy.
    
    Am I being sexist?  I don't know . . . .
    
    Dorothy

    re. 7
    
    If we dress our boy babies in florals, everyone would say,
    "oooooooooooooh, what a cute little GIRL!" 
    
    
    I had to wear dresses to school and have never minded since.
    I can remember climbing up the monkey bars and wondering why the
    little boys were hanging around below.
    
    As said before, it's nice to have to choice!
    I will try and remember that when I do have children.
    
    t.

    
    re .7  'what boys don't wear'
    
     This may be irrelevant, but I have a funny story about my SO, and
    his 'boys wear blue and grey' mother.  He has dark hair and wears
    bright colors well, but his mother visibly pales each time she sees the
    newest turquoise or red or bright blue thing I knit or buy him.
    
    Recently, we were having dinner with his parents, and his mom was
    going on about how men look good in conservative colors
    and should stick to navy blue or grey or sometimes brown (quote).
    
    My sweetie looked up, and said "Mother, that is very sexist".  I
    thought she was going to fall over - he sure didn't get that attitude
    from her ...
    
    One small step .... : ) : )
    
    kasey

    Why are little girls so often dressed in dresses so short that they
    barely cover the little rears? Nothing seems so ridiculous
    as a little girl with boots that go up to her knees and a dress
    that covers none of her legs.
    
    In fact, why are (and as far as I can tell this has always been
    true) the acceptable skirt lengths for girls so much shorter then
    for women? 
    
    			Alfred

    I think the absolute silliest thing little girls wear is little
    bikinis.  There is nothing to hold them up or hold them down, and
    no reason for them to want to look sexy and attract men (often they
    are jokingly teasing each other about "ewwww, boy germs" at that
    point).
    
    Sometimes little girls wear little dresses either because they have
    outgrown them (little girls grow AWFULLY fast), or perhaps it's easier
    for them to run in shorter skirts (less likely to trip/fall down).  I
    rarely wore skirts/dresses as a child, mostly only for special events.
    I was furious at my mother when she would only buy me stretch
    (polyester) pants when all my friends were wearing levi's.  Eventually
    she came around, though. 
    
    -Jody
    

    This question has come up several times in my work with sexual abuse
    and incest survivors.  Many women feel that there is a connection.
    

Shellie and I have had many discussions on what boys can wear.  We usually 
have these discussions in the middle of a store.  :-)

In general, I would think that there are lots more colors boys can get away with
now than they could have several years ago.  However, frills and dresses are
still frowned upon, and in buying for a baby, the parents need to decide how
many times they are going to hear about their "little girl" before they grow
very tired of it.  

               Carol

    	Through about age 12 I wore both dresses and pants, though
    	definitely many more dresses.  That's just what all little 
    	girls wore back then.  Mini-skirts were in for adults at
    	the time, so naturally we wanted to emulate our elders as 
    	much as possible.  As someone pointed out a couple replies 
    	ago, it's also much easier to run and play (as most girls 
    	do) in shorter skirts.  (This does not mean I wear them now!)
    
    	I don't have children and don't know if I ever want to, but
    	if I *do* ever have a baby boy I will not dress him in blue!
    	Nor will I dress my baby daughter in pink!!  There are too
    	many other gorgeous and diverse children's clothes nowadays.
    
    						Carla
    

    My daughter is 7, and except for school, where they are required
    to wear uniforms, I let her pick out want she wants to wear.  We
    go shopping and pick out things together.  Sometimes she wants to
    "dress-up" and sometimes she just wants to be in her sweats.  Whatever
    she is deciding to wear for the day, I make sure that she knows
    what our plans are for the day so that she can decide on what would
    be the best in the way of clothing.   She does just fine with a
    little guidance.  We've been doing it this way since she was 5.
    The major problem we had is when she wanted to wear a favorite outfit
    for days on end.
    
    As for little boys wearing pink and the like.  I don't see any problem
    with it.  In fact, when my son was a baby (under 12 mos.), my
    mother-in-law sent several handmade nightshirts and shirts, most
    of which were white with lace on it.  And being the 2nd child, he
    did have lots of hand-me-downs for sis and ended up in PINK (not
    pastel) jammies.  It didn't seem to bother anyone, least of all
    him.  He wears out the knees on his jeans from playing with his
    trucks, falling off his skateboard and jumping down the steps just
    like other little boys.
    
    D.Marie

    
    I wore mostly dresses and white knee socks to school, K-6. Then
    there were those Tuesdays that I got to wear my Brownie uniform!!
    After school and on weekends was quite a different story though.
    I had jeans and T-shirts. Yup Jody, I remember those stretch pants.
    I had about 3 pairs of pink ones. They didn't last with me though,
    so mom got jeans. My mom made most of my 'dress-up' clothes. She
    did a beautiful job of them also, I didn't mind saying, 'mommy made
    it' because most people couldn't tell. There are a few things that
    I didn't like wearing though. One was this hat that pulled over
    my head. It had these little shiny leaves on it. The kids on the
    bus, I was in kindergarten, used to pull on them. I used to purposely
    miss the bus. Then there was ponytails. I always had hair long
    enough to sit on. Mom always put them in ponytails. I hated that.
    People always pulled them.
    
    Melanie

    I grew up wearing jeans/shorts and T-shirts for play, but also wore
    lots and lots of frills and ruffles.  I never resented it -- in
    fact I LIKED to get all dressed up.  Maybe that's because I wasn't
    made to wear that stuff too often -- I never felt like it was being
    shoved down my throat.
    
    As far as pink for girls and blue for boys, I think that's a very
    outmoded idea.  I happen to LOVE blue and HATE pink, so if I had
    a child s/he would wear lots of blue whatever the sex!
    
    RE: .10
    In my opinion, there is nothing cuter than a pretty little girl with a
    frilly dress that's so short that when she bends over her
    ruffles-and-lace panties show.  I've never seen that done with
    knee-high boots, however -- in the South, little girls wear anklets and
    Mary Janes (preferably black patent). 

    re: .17 and cute girls in frilly dresses:
    
    Oh, that's cute, all right, but in my opinion there's nothing sadder.
    
    This summer our neighbor's daughter came over one Sunday afternoon to
    play with Steven, but she couldn't go on the teeter-totter with him
    because she was wearing her pretty ruffled dress and she didn't want
    her pretty ruffled panties to show. 
    
    I've been fighting for most of my 34 years for the right to not
    to have to be decorative, and we still think that almost the first
    thing we have to teach a girl is to be *cute*???????  So cute she
    can't have fun?

    Yes, dress your children to look nice.  Especially for formal
    occasions.  There's nothing automatically wrong with ruffles and lace.
    But dress them so they're comfortable and not handicapped, too.
    
    --bonnie 

    I absolutely agree, Bonnie!
    
    It starts in the crib when people say "What a *cute* girl!" and
    "What a big, strong, boy!". When if they didn't know the gender
    of the child to begin with, they'd probably mix 'em up!
    (Who said all babies look like Winston Churchill...?)
    
    By all means - kids are to play. Dress 'em so they can!
    
    --DE
    

    I wore polyester pants for school, and dressed up for dinners (the
    story behind that is a bit complex: my dad worked for a prep school
    and was a dorm resident when I was young.  We had breakfasts and
    dinners and weekend lunches at the school dining hall where there
    was a dress code).
    
    Since I grew up in the age of mini skirts, my friends and I would
    compete to see who had the most "modern" (ie. shortest) skirt.
    
    When longer skirts, with waists in the right place, came in I was
    thrilled.
    
    Lee

    re: .19 --
    
    You're right, if you dress a baby in red, yellow, and green, there
    isn't one person in ten who can tell the difference without taking
    off the diaper.  And that 'big strong boy' stuff drives me crazy.
    
    Steven has inherited his Daddy's nice wavy hair; in the summer when
    it's hot and humid, his head is covered by loose ringlets.  Cute
    as anything.  Makes him look angelic with those big blue eyes. (He's
    not, but we can fool some of the people some of the time, right?)
    
    I lost count of the number of women, mostly mothers of daughters,
    who asked me, in one form or another, why I didn't "do something
    about his hair" so he didn't look so much like a girl.

    Aaaarrrrgggghhhh.
        
    --bonnie

    Sometimes it starts before the birth--
    
    I've heard pregnant women say that they have a very active baby
    who kicks and lot, and the instant response is "must be a boy"
    
    yeeeecchhhh

    
    
    I wore dresses or skirts to school 1-12, we had no choice.
    
    Greta has always worn what she wants, usually something strange.
    
    When Jon and Greta were small the wore each others clothes, except
    he never wore her skirts or dresses - she did not have many.
    When they were babies they wore a lot of light green and yellow.
    
    I no longer think that a little girl dressed in frills and white
    knee socks is cute, rather a small child that is in Farmer pants
    is adorable.
    
    I have to dress fairly dressy for work - I enjoy it sometime, yet
    sometime I hate it.  The way I dress, look, reflects my mood.
    I see it as a way of acting out a role of being serious on the
    outside but a rebel in subtle ways.  I always wear ear cluffs.
    
    I can't wait until I can wear jeans to work again, but it may
    be a long time.
    
    _peggy
    
    		(-)
    		 | 		The key in this as in everything
    				else is choice - to have a choice.
    
     
    

    Very interesting topic. I am the mother of a 2 1/2 yr old. Tara
    almost always will perfer pants over a dress. Sometimes I wish she
    would let me put those frilly dresses on but she will have nothing
    to do with it. When she was little (prior to crawling) it was easy,
    she'd just lay there ;-). Once she was mobile it was far more practical
    having her in pants. (think about those sore knees!) The biggest
    problem was her hair. Its long and wavey but until recently she
    would never allow ponytails or barretts. At my sitters house there
    is this one little girl that looks like she just walked off the
    cover of Seventeen including the do's. Tara has decided that ribbons
    and barretts aren't so bad. Even to the degree of going to bed with
    them. 
    
    Bottom line is that since she was old enough to communicate I have
    always given her the options of colors, styles, etc. Even though
    her mom is rarely seen at work in pants (just not comfortable to
    me, though practical on weekends) she is a person too, with rights of 
    choice. No one has ever misstaken her for a boy even while a infant.
    This child is as feminine as they come and I love her to distraction!!
    
    Helena

    Another deal with my mother:
    My mother was willing to let me have the hair style I wanted (actually
    short and straight or long and straight) as long as I was willing
    and able to take care of it myself. Until that time, I had a style
    that _she_ was willing and able to take care of.
    
    Liz
    

    Can anybody explain to me why it's so (@*^(* important that
    a total stranger know what sex one's child is? I mean, this
    person probably doesn't give 2 hoots in h**l whether this kid
    has enough food to eat, enough money to go to college, or whatever,
    but *some* people actually dress their kids so that this total
    stranger *whom they will probably NEVER see again* can tell what
    sex this kid is!!!
    
    Sign me,
    
    Wondering in Keokuk (--DE)
    

    With the exception of Sunday School and church (and maybe other similar
    "formal" occasions) I don't remember Mother ever forcing me to wear a
    particular type of clothing.  And even for mandatory dress-up
    occasions, I was allowed to choose WHICH dress and accessories I wanted
    to wear.  I do remember going through a stage when I thought it looked
    nice to wear my play shirts wrong-side-out. Mother protested a little,
    but in the end I was allowed to wear them wrong-side-out till I tired
    of it.  I was a child who enjoyed wearing frilly things on occasion,
    but I agree that forcing a child to wear a particular type of clothes
    is not a good idea. 

    
    							Pat

Ever since Catherine was 3, she has pretty much dictated (within 
reason) what she will wear.  Consequently, Catherine has dressed 
herself (also within reason) since she was 3.  I can't fault her 
choices or her fashion sense.  She always looks terrific (she's 9 
now) regardless of whether she's in a dress or jeans.  Her 
favorites are poet jeans (the kind with the tucks just below the 
waist), her two denim skirts, one black acid wash (her aunt 
bought that) and regular dark blue, all kinds of turtle neck 
jerseys with large over sized sweatshirts or sweaters.  She was 
given a real kilt from Scotland for Christmas and saves that for 
best but not fancy.  She has a Gunnesax (pink - her favorite 
color, purple - second favorite...not my fault folks, not my 
favorites at all) and a pretty polyester silk teal blue dress 
with a white lace bib that she prefers for going to concerts or 
fancy things like the Girl Scout Fathers and Daughters Valentine 
Dance.  Makes her eyes even darker blue.

Catherine also washes, dries, folds and puts away her clothes.
She also lets me know when she needs more underwear or new tights
because the old ones have holes or runs.  With the exception of
more Barbie stuff, she would rather have clothes than just about
anything else.  After that comes books. 

She certainly didn't get her clothes sense from her mother.  As a 
matter of fact, when in doubt I usually ask her advice (I call 
her my resident fashion consultant!  She loves it!)

Rox

    A note in two parts: first on colors, and second on kids learning
    preferences.

1.  The point that I wanted to raise has been touched on in a few of the
    replies to this note, but I want to bring it up explicitly: girls and
    the color pink. 
    
    The folks across the street have three little girls (the oldest is
    probably in first grade). They're almost always dressed in pastels,
    especially pink, and frequently all of their clothing is pastel. I
    think that's a terrible thing to do to someone.

    I don't have a similar problem with little boys wearing blue. There
    doesn't seem to be a fixed selection of little-boy colors like there is
    for little girls, and any stereotype involved doesn't seem so limiting
    for boys as for girls.

    But, you say, pink's just another color. I see this as the parents
    forcing the kids to fit into a certain mold, and starting them off in a
    stereotype. There's nothing wrong with always wearing a certain color
    or style of clothing (except that it's boring), but in this case, it's
    enforcing unnecessary and harmful expectations and behavior from the
    very beginning of a girl's life.

    Someone we know had a baby girl recently, and knew the sex beforehand.
    By time the baby was born, there was literally a closet full of pastel
    clothing all ready for her to be a little lady.

2.  Some friends were visiting recently, and we had gotten a package of
    construction paper for their kids to play with. The girl is about 5
    years old, and she was mainly interested in the pink paper, and then 
    the red after that. I'm fairly sure her parents never said, "Now,
    you're a little girl, so you should like pink." She certainly did,
    though.  She also likes to wear dresses, which her mother doesn't ever
    do. (Everyone made noises like "My, what a pretty dress.", although
    no one commented on her brother's clothing). She was also carrying
    around and playing with a little makeup kit. Her mother doesn't ever
    wear makeup.

    So, the question is, where does this influence come from? Is the
    influence from the outside (TV, other kids, grandparents, other kids'
    parents, etc) so great that it overrides the influence or models of the
    parents? 

    re: .29
    
    First point --  try dressing your three-year-old son in a lavender
    sweat suit and see if the stereotyping of boys is less restrictive.
    Especially if your son looks good in pastels and not so great in
    bright colors.  This attitude is scandalous from both sides of the
    equation.  
    
    Second point -- I've observed this obvious overfeminization of girls
    with not typically feminine mothers a few times and I, too, am at
    a loss to account for it.  By the time Kat displayed these symptoms,
    she was old enough to be highly fashion conscious, I didn't worry
    about it, and she moved through it to her own sense of expression
    through fashion.  But in four and five year olds, it's hard to believe
    that either TV or friends have had that much influence.  

    A friend of mine has a daughter slightly younger who behaves in
    the same way you describe.  I thought of two possibilities -- one,
    she gets an awful lot of praise from her Daddy for being so
    well-behaved and pretty.  Two, who bought her the dresses in the
    first place?  If Mommy bought them, and Mommy's telling her not
    to wear them, the girl must be getting very mixed messages. At her
    age, the only way to deal with them would be to follow first one,
    then the other.
    
    But it boils down to -- I don't know, either, but it helps maked
    child-raising these days a difficult, difficult job.
    
    --bonnie

    I have one female cousin, Lindsay, 5 years old that is so overly
    feminine it is sickening some time.  For Christmas she received a play
    Kirby vacuum cleaner, tea set, kitchen set, and shopping set and frilly
    dresses while her brother and male cousins got transformers and legos.
    She asked for every one of these "female" items. She refuses to wear
    anything but dresses, the frillier the better, her idea of sports and
    recreation is painting her fingernails.  Where did she get this -
    certainly not from her career mother or her sports oriented father. 
   
    Then I have a 6 year old sister-in-law Kathleen (sounds pretty funny).
    She will not wear a dress unless bodily harm is threatened, wears only
    jeans and sweats, wants every transformer her brother ever had and
    loves to play basket ball. Her mom is also career oriented and her
    three older brothers and dad are very sports oriented. 
          
    What is the big difference between the two? 
  
    Well Lindsay is always around other relatives who all live nearby. She
    is the only granddaughter and youngest grandchild on her mom's side of
    the family; they finally have some one to buy dresses for and play
    little mommy with. Lindsay is covered with praise when grandma sees
    that frilly dress that she sent. Her parents are no longer the only
    influence on her life. 
  
    Kathleen, however, lives a thousand miles away from her closest
    relative so mom, dad and brothers are more exclusive role models for
    her.  The frilly dress that grandma sent usually gets dusty in the
    closet - but what does grandma know. 
  
    The point is that mom and dad cannot be the only model in any childs
    life. Television (commercials are awful ), teachers, child care
    playmates, grandparents, aunts, uncles, brothers and sisters have a
    part in it too. 
  
    Is one better than the other? NO - they are both are wonderful and I
    love them.  Will their dress and lifestyle affect their future - well
    Kathleen is going to become an NBA basket ball star ( no one has told
    her that there are no female NBA basket ball players - well not yet)
    and Lindsay is going to be president of the United States in a frilly
    dress (did I forget to tell you she is extremely intelligent, very
    diplomatic and I am going to be her campaign manager). 
  

    I'm not sure why but it really bothers me to read all the notes
    which seem to be *against* girls and women wearing pink and dressing
    in feminine clothes.  Maybe it bothers me because pink has always been
    my favorite color, because I love pretty clothes, but I also consider
    myself to hold feminist ideals.
    
    In my ideal world, a secretary would be valued at least as much
    as a truckdriver salary-wise.  Little girls would be brought up
    to believe that they are going to have to support themselves when
    they grow up, not depend on a man, and that it is more important
    to get a college degree than to get married, and that single people
    can live happy, fulfilling lives without having kids or living in
    couples.  It would be okay for girls to play football and for boys
    to wear pink - whatever turns them on as long as it doesn't hurt
    anybody else.  But, it would also be okay for girls to wear pink,
    dress in lace, jewelry, and use cologne.  In order to be equal with
    men do women have to sacrifice what I always liked best about being
    female?  Pretty clothes, jewelry, perfume, the color pink.  I really
    hope not.  I think people should be able to look pretty and still
    get good grades in school and make a lot of money in the business
    world.  An MIT graduate in a pink dress is still an MIT graduate.
    
    My daughter is 14.  She loves clothes, spends an hour on her hair
    in the morning, gets A's in math, and science is her favorite subject.
     I don't think smart, successful women have to dress like men. 
    If they want to, fine.  I'm all for individual self-expression,
    so I don't think I should have to give up wearing my favorite color to 
    prove I'm a feminist.

    Lorna
    

    It isn't - or shouldn't be - a matter of being against females wearing
    traditional female colors; rather, *I* am against females being
    forced to do so, and being put down when they don't. That is, if
    you see someone gushing over a tiny girl in a frilly pink dress,
    and *not* gushing over another tiny girl in blue corduroy overalls,
    that person is telling the second child something very negative.
    (The relative merits of being fashion-conscious, making a statement
    with your clothing, etc. seem irrelevant to me when we're talking
    about children.)
    
    That's all.

    -b

    Re 32
    
    Couldn't agree with you more!  Lindsay will be a great president
    whether she wears pants or a frilly pink dress!  Kathleen on the
    other hand will have trouble playing basketball in a dress and I
    don't think an NBA team out there wears pink!
    
    Pink and Purple are my favorite colors too - I also think men look so
    attractive and sexy in these colors - probably because they stand out
    amongst the drab greens, browns and blues. 

    re: .32
    
    I agree with you, Lorna.  In an ideal world, secretaries would be
    valued at least as much as truck drivers -- and you couldn't assume in
    advance that a particular secretary or truck driver was male or female.
    It is not the idea of dressing up per se that I am complaining about. 

    One thing I am complaining about is the fairly prevalent attitude that
    one is feminine *only* when dressed in pink ruffles.  I mean, you look
    great in pink.  But in pink ruffles I look like one of those dancing
    elephants in the circus.  The kind of clothes I look good in are not
    considered feminine.  So I choose between looking good or looking
    feminine . . . I've managed to work through that one so I now feel
    feminine in whatever I'm wearing, but it took a lot of effort, and
    in high school my self-image suffered a lot of damage from the
    contortions of trying to assume a feminine stereotype that suited
    neither my appearance nor my personality.  
        
    Another thing that bothers me is that we're talking about very young
    kids being dressed inappropriately for the activity and the context. If
    your daughter, or anybody else's daughter, wants to wear a ruffly pink
    dress to church, that's fine with me.  But when they're wearing ruffly
    pink dresses in situations such as play where the way they're dressed
    prevents them from fully participating in activities, that's not good. 

    And the third aspect, which has only been brought home to me as I try
    to raise a son with a marked preference for pastels who wants a toy
    kitchen set for his fourth birthday -- the insistence on the feminine
    for girls leads directly to an insistence that these things are not for
    boys.  You can tell me that this is not a necessary connection,
    but that's how it works in today's society.
    
    Is this clearer, or am I still muddling the already muddy waters?
    
    --bonnie

    3,4, and 5 year old girls are very strongly influenced by what other
    girls in their pre-school and kindergarten class wear.  In some
    cases, girls split into little cliquey groups at this age, and they
    can be brutal about clothing.
    
    I remember one class of 4 year olds where the girls worked extremely
    hard on 'out-femme-ing' each other on a daily basis.  It got worse
    and worse, and they talked about it a lot.  They were very anxious
    if they didn't have their little purses (gag) with them at all times.
    For them, this was highly correlated with acceptance (gag again).
    
    I also noticed that a few of the mothers strongly reinforced the
    stereotypes.  Occasionally we would ask them to send all the kids
    (boys and girls) to school in jeans or cords to do a messy project.
    Some of the mothers became extremely upset at the thought of missing
    their daily doll-dressing session.  Some of their daughters looked
    extremely anxious being away from the security of pretty, approved
    of clothes.
    
    I also remember one little girl whose parents were eastern European.
    She had some special shoes (that were supposedly quite common wherever
    the family came from) which were like Oxfords only with high
    sides like baseball sneakers.  Her parents believed that such shoes
    were very important for healthy feet.  But she was teased mercilessly
    by the other 4 and 5 year olds who would not accept her.  The teachers
    suggested that letting her get some sandals with buckles like the
    other girls had would help, and she was accepted almost immediately
    once the parents complied.
    
    It scares me.

    RE: Where does it come from?
    
    Certainly, kids have lots of influences around them. However, there
    *may* be natural preferences for certain colors, clothes, toys,
    etc.
    
    The problem starts when kids are punished for these natural
    preferences. (There's a psychology term for that, but the brain
    cells that hold it are nearing 42, and I can't remember....)
    If little Tommy likes hammers, fine. If little Susie likes hammers,
    mom and pop take it away and give her dolls. Pfui.
    
    I think kids should be allowed to play with whatever they naturally
    like to play with. Why can't boys play with kitchen sets? The
    highest paid chefs in the world are still MEN. So buy Tommy a kiddy
    chef's hat and apron. Susie, too.
    
    --DE
    

    re: .37
    
    I think you're right about natural preferences being reinforced in some
    areas and repressed in the other.  I suspect that the positive
    reinforcement, the pleasure of making Mommy and Daddy happy, is at
    least as strong as the negative reinforcement.  And parents aren't the
    only agent. 
    
    Boys with kitchen sets fall into the same category as girls with
    hammers. 
    
    Boys *CAN* play with kitchen sets.  They are able to, and they have
    my permission to.  They'll even enjoy it for a while.
    
    Until the other boys start calling him sissy. 
    
    Until his playschool teacher gently takes his hand, pulls him away
    from the kitchen, and tells him, "I'm sure you'd really rather play
    train with Jonathan and Andrew."
    
    No, I am not making this up.  It was taking place just as I got
    there to pick Steven up.  (Thank God it wasn't enough to kill his
    interest.  Thank God he still likes to help me cook.)
    
    Here's another snippet of dialogue overheard at the same preschool
    (YWCA in Nashua, FYI -- yes, we have changed schools):
    
    Kate:  I played with my friend Steven again this afternoon!
    
    Kate's mother:  Don't you play with Steven too much, dear?  Wouldn't
    you rather play in the kitchen?  You always like to play baking cakes. 
    
    Kate:  But Steven and I were playing bake the cakes!  First I washed
    the dishes and then Steven washed the dishes!
    
    Kate's mother:  Turns and gives me an incredulous look.  Then, "Well,
    that's nice, dear, but your daddy would never do something like that."
    
    I'm sure he wouldn't.  He wouldn't dare.
    
    --bonnie

    AS a former teacher, I don't often advocate yelling at teachers,
    but in that case, Bonnie, I think I would've TOTALLY lost my
    cool! I hope you explained WHY you changed! 
    

    I just had a bizarre mental picture: the children of liberated working
    moms and dads being turned into sex-role-stereotyped clones by
    teachers. I blush for my (ex) profession.
    
    Dawn-who-knows-how-sexist-the-schools-are
    

    Lorna: I'm not saying that you can't wear pink frilly dresses all the
    time if you want to. Of course, it doesn't matter what I think, or what
    anyone else thinks, except you. The question is, though: Where do these
    preferences come from? Does a woman naturally wind up liking the color
    pink and certain styles of dress, and wearing makeup, or is it from
    what society taught her? That's a hard question, and one perfectly
    acceptable answer is "Who cares?" It wouldn't matter if there were no
    stereotypes, and if people didn't think certain things about a person
    because of appearance. That's not the worst of it, though. By forcing
    kids (and adults) to fit into stereotypes, their choices are limited.
    There have been lots of examples in other replies to this note.

    I firmly believe that education is the answer to everything. If people
    could be taught to accept everyone irrespective of their behavior or
    appearance, then I'd have no problem with *painting* little girls and
    boys pink and blue (well, a little problem). But that's not likely to
    happen, so we have to be careful how we set kids up.

    Actually, this is similar to a point that Bonnie Randall (I think it
    was her) made after last week's snow -- what a coincidence that in her
    neighborhood it happened that the woman stayed home at each house while
    the man went to work. It might be coincidence, or it might be some
    subconscious happenings. As Bonnie pointed out, each situation had a
    reasonable explanation, but taken together it's pretty spooky.
    Similarly, it's ok for everyone to have a favorite color to dress in
    (I'm wearing a bright yellow undershirt with a red shirt myself. I hate
    to blend into a crowd.), but it's weird when lots of women like to wear
    pink stuff with lace, while men all like to look like the same ad for
    Anderson-Little suits.

    
    PS: I play with my kitchen set all the time; nobody harasses me about
    it. I guess that's one of the benefits of being 6'5"and scowling a lot.

    					-- hs

    I have to go along with the others, here, Lorna (will you and I
    ever agree on anything?). The reaction expressed against girls
    wearing pink doesn't have anything to do with the color itself
    or that it's bad for girls to wear pink. The reaction is against
    the *stereotyping* of "pink for girls and blue for boys". The
    point is that, in essence, there's no choice in the matter. One
    sex gets one color, the other sex the other color, and that's that,
    case closed.
    
    People should wear whatever they wear because they *want* to (or
    their parents want them to :-)), not because they are of a given
    sex.
    
    --- jerry

    re: .39
    
    Yes, Dawn, they know why I left.  They don't understand, but they
    know.
    
    That was far from the first incident.  The first incident was after
    the first day, when I read through the procedures handout they give
    you.  As with most schools, they have an emergency-contact form:
    where to reach you, where to reach the father, and where to reach
    somebody else who could come and pick your child up.  Yes, the form
    assumed the mother was filling it out.
    
    The real kicker, though, was that the handbook said they'd call
    the emergency contact *before* they called the father.  The father
    would only be called as a last resort.  
    
    I thought it was a misprint or something, but when I asked for
    clarification, the teacher told me that "the fathers wouldn't be
    able to leave work to pick up a sick child at school."  I probably
    should have taken Steven out right then and there, before he even
    started, but the teacher was real good with the kids and it was
    obvious she didn't have the authority to change the school's policy
    if she wanted to.  
    
    This playschool meets twice a week for three hours.  Its main purpose
    was to get the kids to play together, go to the gym for a while to
    throw a basketball around, do some crafts projects, and generally get
    used to doing organized activities together.  
    
    All but one of the girls came in dresses every day.  The boys, and one
    cute red-headed girl, came in t-shirts and jeans.  For the Christmas
    party, the note that was sent home said that "girls should wear nice
    dresses if they have them."  The boys came in t-shirts and jeans.
    (Note here I'm not objecting to the dressing up -- I think the boys
    should have been asked to wear nice clothes, too.) But again, the
    teacher didn't do the notices, the playschool director did them. 
    
    I didn't get much support from the other mothers when I complained.
    They just sort of watched me like I was some sort of martian.  But
    after one discussion, the mother of one of the boys that Steven didn't
    like to play with told the teacher in a loud voice that one of the
    things she liked about the school was the way they taught the boys
    and girls proper behavior and 'what it was really going to be like
    in the world.' 
    
    The teacher herself did not seem to approve of a lot of this stuff, but
    seemed to think that she had no choice but to enforce a lot of other
    people's nonsense.  And up until the incident with the train and the
    kitchen, I thought it was better for all concerned to leave Steven
    there, show by example that there were other ways to raise sons, that
    boys could do these things and didn't have to be like Andrew.  I
    know, there's Bonnie out to save the world again.
    
    He's now in a preschool where Uncle Harry, the preschool's owner, cooks
    the meals and takes care of the kids morning and afternoon while the
    teachers are coming in, and he seems to like that a lot better. 

    This business of living in the real world instead of the DEC ivory
    tower for several months was extremely enlightening.  Some time
    I may tell you about the gymnastics mothers, or the people I met
    downtown.  I'm considerably less optimistic about the future of
    the world than I was last year at this time.  

    How do you educate someone who's doing their level best to keep
    their mind closed against change?
        
    --bonnie

    Re several, I'm just objecting to yet another stereotype.  A stereotype
    that seems to indicate that women who do like to wear very feminine
    clothes or dress their baby daughters in pink couldn't possibly
    hold feminist ideals.  A stereotype that seems to indicate that
    all women who are serious about women's rights are supposed to wear
    no make-up, have short hair and hairy legs.  And sometimes I do
    get that impression.  Maybe I just needed some reassurance.  Thanks.
    
    I've noticed more pink clothes for men in the stores lately, and
    I really like them.  I saw one guy in line at the credit union the
    other day with a really nice pink pullover sweater on.  He did look
    good in it, and I wished I had the courage to ask him how he arrived
    at the point that he was wearing pink to work and how he felt about
    it.
    
    I don't know *why* I like pink.  My mother's favorite color was
    blue and she told me that when I was a toddler I started to want
    everything pink - stuffed animals, clothes, bedspread, etc.  She
    said I had a pink corduroy slack set that I tried to wear everyday!
     Who would have had time to brainwash me?
    
    I also had a pair of black high top sneakers when I was 5 yrs. old,
    in 1954.  I think that was pretty liberated of my mother.  She went
    to buy me sneakers and my brother told me that only sissies wear
    red, low top sneakers, so I demanded the same style he got.  The
    saleslady seemed incredulous, but my mother bought them for me.
     I remember the saleslady saying, "Little girls don't wear that
    type of sneaker" and my mother saying, "Well, there's no law against
    it!" and bought them for me.  By the way, my *mother* was a tomboy
    when young and used to say that she didn't know where she got me
    from!
    
    Lorna
    

    re: .43
    
    Lorna, you are certainly as liberated as any woman I know.
    
    Which doesn't mean to say that we don't all have a ways to go to
    free ourselves from stereotypes and imprisoning social expectations,
    or learning to value ourselves for what we are and not for what
    we look like.
    
    If I'm maybe pretty far along in defiant behavior and good at slinging
    words around, I'm pretty insecure about what I do, and I value deeply
    your comments reminding me that I have to look to myself, not tell
    others how to behave. 
    
    --bonnie

re: .43, Lorna
    
>    Re several, I'm just objecting to yet another stereotype.  A stereotype
>    that seems to indicate that women who do like to wear very feminine
>    clothes or dress their baby daughters in pink couldn't possibly
>    hold feminist ideals.

    Yes, you're right. I'll admit to having problems interpreting certain
    combinations of behavior. I guess the real problem is that while it
    might be innocent for an adult to dress a certain way, I very strongly
    feel that it's wrong to start a child out living a stereotype. (I'll
    still argue that adults have to work hard to destroy stereotypes. It is
    a chore that people have to do in order to make change happen),

    I also feel that I'm repeating myself, so perhaps I should bow out of
    this discussion for awhile.

    					-- hs

    no, Hal, it's good to have you back!
    
    Holly

    re: .45
    
    I have to admit I'm bothered by it, too.
    
    There's the old adage, "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck,
    and talks like a duck, it must *be* a duck."  
    
    Trouble is, in real life it's not that simple.  Even if it really is a
    duck, you might be confusing teals and mallards.  Or maybe it's really
    a young goose, or an owl who feels more comfortable swimming, or -- 
    
    But I digress.  
    
    --bonnie

    Children's clothes are so color coded that it is HARD to find 
    clothes that aren't pink or purple for girls or red and blue 
    for boys, never mind the style differences.
                                                                    
    I tend to dress my identical twin boys in blue and red, one always 
    in blue so people will be able to tell them apart, but it is    
    boring all the time.  Black is just starting to show up in boy's     
    clothes.  More green, pink, brown, grey etc. would be nice.   
                                                                       
    ________________________________________________________________
    
    I have a problem with pink and purple only because they are not
    colors that are taken seriously.  I wouldn't wear either color 
    to work because I know that I wouldn't be treated the same way
    that I am when I wear my navy suits.  I'm not thrilled but I
    think it is true.

        
     

    My daughter is  auburn haired and green eyed, so pink never looked
    that good on her.  Blues and greens are her colors.  Getting her
    into a dress was always a hassle and it wasn't worth fighting about
    so I pretty much let her wear what ever she wanted.  When she was
    about 9 years old we went on vacation with my mother, who believed
    all little girls should wear dresses 99% of the time. I got her
    a bunch of tennis 'dresses' which were comfortable for Michelle
    and satisfied my mother. 
    
    When Michelle was to enter her Jr year in high school I let her
    shop for school clothes with her friends, I droped her off at the
    mall and picked her up 6 hours later. She bought all skirts and
    dresses, boy was I shocked.
    
    Now as a 24 year old she has mostly jeans (she works on a farm)
    but likes what she calls Vanna White dresses, you know with no back
    or ruffles at the bottom. She also drives a truck, and begged for
    a chain saw for Christmas (and got it) and hugs her socket wrenches.

    Who's Vanna White ? It's getting really bad you know, I seem to
    be writing 1/2 my notes to ask for a translation from American to
    English, or to ask about something that I don't know about.
    
    	Sarah.

    Re: .50
    
    Vanna White is the closest thing to a living Barbie doll we've got.
    She turns the letters on the game show "Wheel of Fortune" and performs
    other hostess duties (smiling, waving, cheering the contestants,
    wearing extravagant wardrobes, etc.) for the program.  Somehow, she
    has become a celebrity, but I think the fad is fading.

     When I was little I (and my four sisters) wore T-shirts, shorts,
    jeans, corduroys, god-awful stretch pants, snow suits in
    winter (we were not allowed to leave the house 
    without a hat firmly planted on our heads, mittens, and scarf)
    sweaters, sweatshirts, shoes (no sneakers), dresses for mass on Sunday 
    and special events.  Colors ranged from bright red to deep violet, but 
    leaned on the pinks, whites, some frills.
    
    >> Do you think the clothing that a girl wears affects her later
    clothing style?  her self image?
    
     No and yes.  (Later = teens? twenties?) No:  From personal experience,
    my sisters and I grew from the same pool of clothes as kids
    into very different clothing styles in our teens and twenties (one
    fashion plate, three fashion conscious, and one who succumbs to
    fashion every now and then). We also, however, had guidelines from our 
    parents as 
    to what clothing styles were acceptable and which ones were not (about
    the only things defined as "unacceptable" were styles such as mini mini 
    skirts, halters and fishnet stockings, skin tight clothes, and 
    blouses/dresses cut to the navel.)  We all still use a wide range of
    colors and patterns from "conservative navy blue" to "shockingly
    BRIGHT (get out your sunglasses) red". Yes, including pinks.
    
    Yes:  I think what you wear as a kid establishes what styles (including
    the skirts/dresses v. pants issue) are okay to wear and serves as a
    base from which you develop your own style later on. (i.e. whether its 
    okay to always wear skirts or pants, dress up/not dress up, whether
    mini mini skirts, tube tops, and spike heels are okay, etc.)
                                                           
    >>self image
    
    Hmmm. That one's tougher. I never really thought about my clothes until
    I was in my teens and then it was only when I had a "date".  Of
    course, going to Catholic school, I never had to think about a clothing
    style or face the pressures of "being with it" on a daily basis.  
    
    I don't think kids really think of clothes as projecting an image until
    they reach the age 12-13.  Then, I think, its a MAJOR struggle to
    figure out what clothes "are you" and how comfortable you'll be
    wearing them (i.e what if they are not fashionable?! GASP! And worse
    still, not what your peers/friends are wearing!). 
    
    This is of course coming from someone who doesn't have children
    and who hasn't worked with them in about 4 years.
    
    - Mary   
    
    
    
    
     

    re: .53
    
    Interesting what you mentioned about not having to worry about the
    day to day pressure of choosing your wardrobe:  There's a fair
    amount of sentiment at my daughter's junior high to have uniforms
    for the girls so they don't have to deal with that daily pressure
    and so the girls who can't afford designer jeans don't have to
    feel bad. 
    
    After all the years I spent fighting for the right to wear what
    was comfortable and what expressed my own personality, I nearly
    blew my cool over that one.  

    I'm concerned that wearing uniforms to school will make it more
    difficult for the girls to learn what makes unacceptable and
    acceptable dress in different situations.  They're already anxious
    to conform -- seems like this will reduce their options still
    further. 
    
    --bonnie

    Bonnie:
    
    	I don't understand the comment in your note (.54) that 'they
    are already eager to conform.'  
    
    	As to the use of uniforms, I support them for just the reason
    stated by your daughter - they make the wearers appear more equal.
    As a child, I wore a uniform in grades 1 though 8, as did all the
    other children in the shcool (grades 1 through 12).  The poor and
    the not so poor dressed about the same - a little bit of equality,
    even if it was only window dressing.
    
    Douglas

    Although, of course, the girls' uniforms include skirts and the boys'
    include pants (and probably the dreaded necktie, but that's another
    discussion). I don't like that because it teaches them their place, so
    to speak, and what's expected of them. 

    					-- hs

    I also dislike the idea of uniforms (thankfully, I've never had
    to put up with the practice). First of all, it presupposes that
    someone's whim about what is acceptable dress is Truth. Secondly,
    I think that while the economic equalization of appearance is a
    noble goal, it is a greater detriment than a benefit because it
    crushes individual expression. I feel that making everyone look
    the same is damaging to the self.
    
    After all, isn't the whole idea of our society that we should
    have (within reasonable limits, of course) freedom of choice?
    
    If they tell us what to wear today, what will they tell us to do
    tomorrow?
    
    --- jerry

   Well,  I have no particular interest in kids' wearing uniforms. HOWEVER,
    anyone who has anything to do with teenagers knows that that's exactly
    what they DO. They ALL look alike. When I was teaching school, it
    was (oh, I forgot. some designer with his name on your butt) jeans,
    Reebok high-tops (UNlaced), and a type of preppie/yuppie shirt with
    an animal crawling on your chest.
    
    THEY ALL LOOKED ALIKE. But God fobid you ask 'em to wear a uniform
    to gym class. 
    
    It's not that they don't want a uniform - they just don't want an
    *adult* to pick it!
    
    --DE
    

    When I went to summer samp, it was on what they called a "campership"
    which was the frivolous version of a scholarship.  It meant I didn't
    pay.  
    
    It was full of rich girls.  They wore uniforms, to cut down on
    competition between us, I was told.
    
    The uniforms were extremely expensive and I was not able to afford
    them.  We were also expected to get our other gear (sheets, blankets)
    from the outfitting company.  These were also quite expensive.
    
    I ended up wearing hand-me-down uniforms, anywhere from 30 to 2
    years old, bringing my own white sheets, and sewing the required
    camp patch on a gray wool blanket (similar to the other girls but
    the color did not *quite* match).
    
    While we were all dressed in uniformly ugly clothing, it was obvious
    who came from poor families because our clothes didn't *quite* match.
    
    So the uniforms didn't really eliminate our awareness of each other's
    social/monetary status.  I, among others, remained quite self-conscious
    of my family's poverty and my inability to compete with the rich
    girls.
    
    Lee

    It isn't the uniform or lack of it: it is the support system.

       When I was a lad I attended a fairly fancy grammar school
       (selective entry city council run school with fierce competition
       to get in). Students came from all social classes. The school had
       a uniform: for "newts" (first year students - 11 year olds) the
       uniform was: black barrathea blazer with school badge on breast
       pocket, grey short pants, black shoes, grey socks with "house
       colors" on elastic tops, grey or white shirt, and school tie.

       Yes it was expensive - largely because only one outfitter in the
       town carried the blazers with integral badges.

       However there was a perfectly adequate system of council grants
       for the poorer famillies. NO CHILD WAS IN ANY WAY DIFFERENT.

       The situation described in .-1 is in no way a reflection on the
       uniform system but is a considerable indictment of the
       grotesquely inadeguate system of welfare offered in the "richest
       and poorest country in the world".

       On a slightly different tack: some time ago I was working as a
       teacher - the school proposed abandoning the school uniforms. The
       result was a storm of protest from both the [girl] pupils and the
       parents THAT THEY COULDN'T AFFORD TO BUY FASHIONABLE CLOTHES FOR
       THE CHILDREN TO WEAR TO SCHOOL. Uniforms - even fairly expensive
       ones - were much cheaper than having a full range of fashion
       outfits to wear.

       /. Ian .\

    re:.58
    
    Yes, it's true that they essentially have a "uniform", but the
    difference is that they *choose* to wear it. It's still *their*
    personal expression, not someone else's.
    
    --- jerry

    i went to two schools where we had two "uniforms", but we still
    had a lot of room for personal expression. at the first one, girls
    had to wear jumpers or skirts of certain colors and button down
    shirts (there was a more coordinated uniform for special days --
    blue jumper or skirt, white blouse, blue or white socks). my
    grandmother sewed all the jumpers i wore at that school.
     
    at the next school, there were "official" uniform components, but
    everyone bought theirs at the schools 2nd hand store. we could choose
    from several dresses, a plain skirt, a blazer, a pleated plaid skirt,
    and a few jumpers (one wool, the other more summery). eventually,
    we were allowed to wear certain colors of corduroy pants. this scheme
    allowed us lots of latitude to differ from each other -- in fact,
    observers were occasionally surprised to discover that we were "in
    uniform". 
    
    even in those days, i was used to thinking for myself, but it didn't
    bother me to wear uniforms.

    liz

    p.s. ever notice the uniforms at dec?
    
    for example, i once watched a videotaped product announcement with
    lots of speakers. K.O. wore his usual frumpy two-piece suit. people
    close to him in rank were slightly more dressed up. the lowest ranking
    people wore elaborate three-piece suits, watch chains, etc.
    
    another example -- digital salespeople and marketeers seem to dress
    alike -- a dull colored suit, nice shoes or pumps, an oxford shirt
    and a power tie (for both men and women)...
    
    and how about engineers? i talked to a female engineer who had dressed
    up in a suit one day and gone to a technical presentation. the lecturer
    was pretty rude when she asked a question. the next day, she contacted
    him, got the information she wanted and asked why he'd been so
    difficult the previous day. it turned out that since she wasn't
    dressed as an engineer, he'd assumed she didn't know anything and
    had decided she wasn't worth spending energy on.

    we may not have a mandated uniform here, but we still seem to adhere
    to some kind of dress standard.
    
    liz

    It's always a little strange to see a cluster of people in dark
    power suits clustered together in one of the halls at Spitbrook.
    A lot of the clothing up here would pass muster in any high school
    (= engineers!), and even the skirts and suits look a little less
    formal than in other places.
    
    But every once in a while some group of people is here for a meeting
    and they have carefully outfitted themselves in slick dark suits with
    mostly white shirts.  They really stand out if they stand around in a
    group in the hall.  I find myself wondering where the funeral is. And I
    wonder what they think about us!  ("They build them this beautiful
    building, and look at the way they dress...")? Who knows! 

    
    Its unfortunate that power clothes earn no respect from
    the technical types. We all have to dress up at one time
    or another.  
    
    You all ought to get out of your Mill once in a while
    and see the real world. A suprising number of power tie and
    white shirt wearers know what is what. Don't ever assume such
    garb indicates a mere "talking head" (if you want to avoid 
    embarrassment).
    
    But that is touching on a more general problem... hmmm..

    "Its unfortunate that power clothes earn no respect from
    the technical types."

    Care to elaborate on why you think this is unfortunate?
    
    Chuck

    
    Simply because it is yet another form of prejudice.
    
    Valuing someone as irrelevant becuase of how they
    are dressed does qualify, to me, as prejudice.
    
    

    RE: .67
    
    Hey Bob, have you considered bringing harassment charges against
    those who are prejudiced against power suits? 
    
    Actually, the term "Valuing Differences" was once discusssed by
    a female personnel-type in U.S. Area News, back in the Fall of '86.
    
    Rather simply stated, the author posed the questiion: "Should we
    (the Corporation) value the difference of a person who is a bigot,
    a sexist, a racist"? Unfortunately, she didn't have answers to this
    nagging question.
    
    I can see it now: By 1990, DEC will have 200,000 employees. Of that
    number, 25,000 will be doing actual value-added work. The other
    175,000 will be part of Personnel, investigating harassment charges
    brought against various members of the group of 25,000.
    
    Of course, eventually, some members of the Personnel group will
    be "accused" of harassing other members of Personnel. The workload
    will increase, necessitating an increase in the Personnel headcount.
    
    Could this be the way by which unemployment throughout the world
    is eliminated?
    
      Alan 

    Re uniforms:
    
    I went to Catholic school also.  My high school, which mandated
    a uniform skirt for the girls, tried to eliminate the uniforms.
    The students objected because we felt our school had been successful
    in getting kids to focus on building academic, athletic and other
    skills and not on competing through fashion.  (A lot of economic
    levels were represented at St. Mary's.)  Administration, faculty
    and parents were shocked, but the uniform was reinstated.
    
    My younger brother went to public school and liked to rib us that
    _he_ didn't have to wear a uniform.  Once, when he was in junior
    high, I went to his school to pick him up and I couldn't pick out
    which one was my brother.  Every single kid had on a denim jacket
    over a hooded sweatshirt over a plaid flannel shirt over a dark-
    colored pocket t-shirt, and levis and unlaced hightops.  So glad
    they didn't have to wear uniforms.
    
    Of course, the business (as has been pointed out) is no better.
    I got tired of hearing "...could you please show me who John
    Smith is..." "...oh, he's the guy over there in the (choose one:
    navy blue/grey) suit and white shirt."
    

    The last paragraph was referring to what happens at DECworld every
    year.
    
    

    > "...oh, he's the guy over there in the (choose one:
    > navy blue/grey) suit and white shirt."
    
    Nope - pink shirt.  I think pink was conservative at DECWorld last
    year.
    
    						MJC O->

    re: Unifrom Dress Codes
    
    This puzzles me (somewhat).
    
    People detest the military because they "have" to dress according
    to precribed regulations.
    
    When I first came to MK (and in visits to places like MRO) and
    observed the "uniforms" (black/navy blue suits, white shirt/blouse,
    red tie/kerchief, moderately  styled hair) .. it seemed that these
    business meetings must be boring with everyone dressed the same.
    Reminds me of an undertakers or embalmers convention (or is it
    chauffers and waiter_persons ?).
    
    The comments about the "jeans & etc" is hilarious, because I've
    seen my natural children and step-children doing exactly the same
    thing. To belong, they need to dress in uniform.
    
    Fortunately, they don't  seem to think in uniform.
    
    As an aside, recent  news indicates that since OCt 19, 1987 the
    sales of White shirts has risen dramatically ! Funny how hard times
    spurs on "conservative dress", and good times lets people relax
    a bit, hmm ?
    
    (It'll be interesting to hear from the DECUS attendees at Cincinatti
    as to the prominant colours there.)
    
        Bob (watch for new nodenames)