Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    Nice topic (as usual!), Martin.  You are quite right, men can be
    affected by PMS...and of course you're quite right to make a new
    topic of the discussion, since the *way* men are affected is very
    different to the focus of the original note.
    
    						=maggie

    
    I have to agree!  Men are definitely affected by PMS...I finally
    had a hysterectomy to (hopefully) eliminate some of my problems
    and even that had an affect on my SO.  I was moody, irritable
    and just generally hard to get along with for some time after
    the surgery and my SO spent lots of time on the phone with my
    DR. and a therapist asking about how to deal with it.  I wasn't
    even aware of "what" was causing me to feel that way...I thought
    there were problems with our relationship that weren't there and
    was trying to blame it all on *him*!  Prior to the hysterectomy
    my problems with PMS had affected my relationship with him as well.
    Then I knew what the problem was but didn't know how to deal with
    it.  Nor did he.  Thank goodness I finally took the initiative
    to become educated on the subject!  
    
    My

    i'm a bit puzzled by this topic. aren't there lots of issues that
    can get in the way of a relationship if the participants don't
    communicate well? pms could be one, but how about 
    	- a hard day at the office
    	- a technical argument that you lost
    	- a backache or headache
    	- shopping at a crowded supermarket
    	- getting caught in a traffic jam
    	- needing to renew your driver's license...
    i could go on... what do you think makes pms so special?

    Perhaps what makes PMS so special is that it occurs for no
    "apparent" cause. When I have a bad day at the office or a
    headache or etc I am aware of it and factor that into my behavior.
    i.e. I might snap at someone and then applogise, and tell them
    about what had gone wrong that day. With PMS and also with
    some kinds of allergies people tend to be snappy without having
    any obvious external cause. If a woman isn't sensitive to her
    cycles (I tend not to be) or if an allergic person isn't aware
    that they have been exposed to something that 'gets' to them,
    they can be more apt to blame the 'other' and not realize how
    their own physiological state is affecting them. My husband can
    get very touchy when he has been working in areas that are dusty
    or moldy, and until we made the connection between that and his
    moods he just seemed to be upset needlessly over little things.
    Now he takes allergy medication which helps the situation a lot.
    Similarly I can get very irrationally angry when I have low blood
    sugar. These physiological moods can sneak up on us without warning
    and cause unexplicable behavior.
    
    Bonnie

    bonnie, 
    
    you started your note by saying that pms is special, but you ended it
    by saying that it's just like any other sneaky physiological state. i
    think blaming others for feeling bad is learned, and i think awareness
    of what's actually making you feel bad is learned. in your case, you've
    learned to recognize "bad day at the office", but you're not as
    sensitive to "different cycle phases". your husband has learned
    relatively recently to recognize "allergy reaction". r had to learn to
    recognize "fight with the boss" syndrome, and also had to unlearn
    parental lessons about venting on partners. i'm still having trouble
    understanding why pms has been singled out. to me, it's still falls
    into the larger category of awareness and communication.
    
    
    liz

    Liz, that is because my thinking changed as I was writing...and
    I kept thinking of other sneaky physiological states..pehaps
    PMS gets singled out because it is more dramatically obvious than
    low blood sugar or allergies, and because it only happens to women?
    To me the answer is that we should all try to be more in tune with
    our physiological state.
    Bonnie

    what makes PMS different for me, and difficult to deal with, is
    that mine just started recently to be emotionally unhinging.  When
    I do get "feisty" and unhappy, I generally cannot pinpoint why until
    I realize it's the "end of the month", and generally that's after
    whatever damage is done has been done.  I suppose in time I will
    be able to pinpoint when I should expect it, and warn my SO what's
    going on.  The part that makes it so difficult for him to deal with
    (and me, too) is that it is so IRRATIONAL.  It's not triggered by
    anything logical, it comes and goes in a day or two, and it's
    incredibly frustrating to know I am not in control while it is there,
    much as I try...
    
    -Jody
    

    I think another possible reason for singling out PMS is that
    it's had more recent media attention, much of it along the
    lines of consciousness-raising.  Where other conditions have
    been accepted (more or less) all along as "medical", it appears
    many women have been told over the years that what's come to
    be known as PMS is a psychological or even moral (!?!) problem.
    I think it's no secret that most of this "information" came
    from the predominantly male medical community and this adds
    a "political" element to the story.  Finally, the "M" standing
    for menstration means that it relates to "it" (you know, uh, like
    "doing it", um, like, you know, s*x) and we all know how *that*
    can help sell media.
    
    Steve
    
    P.S.  Small side story; I once saw a cartoon that hit home for me:
    
    1st panel:  A man and woman in bed together; she's dressed in her
    		heaviest pajamas, buttoned to the neck, wearing a night
    		cap and slippers.  She is lying on the bed, stiff as
    		a board with a tight-lipped, stressed-out look on her
    		face.  Her SO is trying to kiss her hand, but has 
    		a very apprehensive look on his face.
    
    2nd panel:  (Caption under:  "20 minutes later")
    		The man is chained, spread-eagle, facing the wall,
    		dressed only in his shorts; she is now dressed in
    		spiked heels, seamed nylons, garter, leather corset,
    		and mask.  As she's bringing out the whips with a look
    		of 99.44% pure animal lust, he's looking on incredulously.
    
    The title of the two panels is:  "Sometimes the male has difficulty
    keeping up with the rapid shifts of mood. . ."
    
    

    One thing to keep in mind is that men are also subject to raging
    horomone cycles -- women aren't the only sex "chained to horomones".
    My understanding is that men's cycles are more along a three month
    schedule.  The long schedule + the fact that the end of the cycle
    is not marked by the onset of menstruation is likely to be factors
    in why the world at large is less aware of "male PMS"  :)
    
    I don't recall the source of this info, however -- can anybody verify?
    
    Whenever I want to curse my bod for the excessive horomones, I thank
    my lucky stars that my cycle is one month instead of three: imagine
    what it would be like to be "PMS-sy" for 12 days instead of 4!
    
    Lee

    PMS can also be difficult to explain to a man you don't know well,
    especially if that man is your boss or your project leader or
    something.  Unless you know him well enough to be sure he will be
    sympathetic, you run the risk that he will think you are

       1.  out of your mind
       2.  making excuses for poor work or interpersonal difficulties
       3.  unable to do your job
    
    A woman, even if she doesn't suffer from menstrual difficulties
    herself, understands the concept.  But it's surprising the number of
    men who have never even heard of PMS. It's even more surprising the
    number of men who don't know enough about female menstrual cycles and
    hormones to comprehend an explanation.  With a former supervisor, we
    just about had to start from Anatomy 101 -- and he's fathered three
    kids!
    
    --bonnie 
    
    --bonnie

re: Liz' question earlier -- I didn't bring up PMS because of any
incidents that happened to me, but as a "rathole" digression from
another topic.

Unlike backaches and bad days at the office, PMS is directly connected
to mensturation, which is a taboo in American society.  [I suppose
one of the rites of passage in a long-term relationship is the first
time the man discovers "tampons" in the shopping list.]

Developing a long-term relationship requires both partners to become
sensitive to each other's moods, which is hard enough even with open
communication.  (And don't look to me for any stories of success.)

Martin.

    re: .10
    
    I've also read/heard of the male cycle; thought I saw 35 days
    quoted somewhere, but cannot recall.  From personal experience,
    I've suspected for a while that "something is cooking" here but
    have never paid enough attention to get a good handle on effects
    and duration.  One symptom seems to be times of feeling "stale",
    "blah", "everything (even IT) seems dull"; lasts a bit less than
    a week and more as an emotional backdrop.
    
    Steve
    

    Liz, one reason for singling it out may be that, unlike other
    areas where communication is important, PMS is not experienced
    by both sides. I understand it intellectually, but not experi-
    entially. This lack of shared experience makes good communication
    that much more important. 
    
    Dana

    RE: .10,.12
    
    No reason why there shouldn't be a male cycle, too. Women's cycles
    are affected by the phase of the moon, and women who live(d) outdoors
    cycle(d) right along with the moon. If it can cause ocean tides,
    why shoudn't it affect our bodies?
    
    --DE
    

    I just had lunch with a man who does not read this file, but with
    whom I feel comfortable discussing fairly personal things.
    
    Out of the blue he told me that whenever men at work didn't like
    something done or said by a woman, it was very common to dismiss
    it with, "oh, she's on the rag".
    
    I had never heard the expression, but managed to comprehend it after
    a moment.  Is the expression common?  If so, it explains yet another
    way that our anger is trivialized.   It also shifts responsibility
    for anything the woman is feeling back to her, and absolves the
    person saying it from having to feel any...
    
    The man who was telling me said he thought it was an unfair
    generalization because the co-workers had no way of knowing if that
    were the cause or not.  
    
    fwiw...Holly

    Holly, you bet your bippy it's common! I've heard women dismissed
    with *that* one so many times, it ticks me off even to hear it
    repeated anecdotally!!
    
    Dawn
    

    The only time I actually heard that expression, a male spectator used
    it in relation to the poor performance of a teammate on an athletic
    team I played on.  Our [male] coach threatened to punch out the man who
    said it.
    
    --bonnie

    
    I think the point Holly brought up is the very essence of why 
    PMS and the affect it has on the men in our lives is so 
    important.  It's a hard thing for a lot of men to comprehend,
    it was not taken seriously for so long, and like Dawn said
    in .16 it's been an excuse for so many times...I agree, it's
    not funny any more. 
    
    The other thing that makes PMS more "special" than just having
    a hard day at the office is that men and women alike can relate
    to the "hard day at  the office" but very few men really know
    enough about PMS to understand it.  I for one am glad to see it
    becoming more newsworthy and hopefully the general public is 
    becoming more educated about it! 
    
    My
    

    I believe  that "on the rag" is an old (at least the middle of the
    19th  century)  euphimism,  and  was  originally not offensive. It
    comes,  of  course,  from  the  days  before tampons and pads were
    commercially  available,  so  reuseable sponges or rags were used.
    I've  heard  speculation that it is the origin of the verb "to rag
    on someone" ie. to complain about them excessively.

--David
(resident part-time etymologist)

    RE: .19 - furhter down the rathole?
    
    Yes, David, of course it came from the fact that women wore rags
    to absorb menstrual blood.
    
    The expression, however, is not used to inform the group-at-large
    that a particular woman may be menstruating. Who cares?
    
    The phrase translates to:
    
    Ignore her. She's obviously incapable of rational thought due to
    those raging female hormones. 
    
    It is a definite *dismissal*, regardless of how it came to be.
    
    --DE
    

    I remember on David Letterman's (third?  fourth?) anniversary special
    they had people make "home movies".  Two women made a really hilarious
    one about PMS (very artsy and esoteric).  The line that stuck out
    was:  "Somewhere between Christmas and Death is PMS".

    as for "on the rag", I've heard it lots (going to tech schools with
    awkward ratios made the difference).  I really wonder why there's a
    stigma around it (well I've heard you all talk about how the stigma
    came about, but not really WHY anyone bothered to make a big deal out
    of it).  I mean, half the population (females), between the ages of
    roughly 12-45 or some such, menstruate roughly 5 days out of every
    month (unless pregnant or whatever).  So what's the big deal?  A friend
    of mine was sick one day and she asked her boyfriend to go buy her a
    box of tampons.  He was petrified of walking into that CVS and buying
    "those things".  Unfortunately, now that it is such a sensationalized
    issue, it may never be toned down to the attention it really deserves -
    next to none.  It's NORMAL, damnit. 

    sorry to get off the subject...
    
    on with PMS
    
    -Jody
    

    I think "oh, she must be on the rag" is used to dismiss women in
    the same way that "he sure has a hair up his a**" is used to dismiss
    men, I think that rather than being intended to mean "ignore her"
    it means "don't take it personally, she's being unreasonable". Now
    that fact that menstruation is being equted with unreasonableness
    is a gross overgeneralization, and thus offensive, but there is
    at least a grain of truth in it, witness this entire discussion.
    
    I guess I just wish the subject were treated sympathetically instead
    of being used to dismiss and belittle.
    
    Aside: on the subject of tampons, the last time Janice and I were
    in a grocery store, she called out to me (a few aisles away) "Charles!
    Get some pads!" to which I replied "What size!? Super or Extra?"
    The looks on the faces of the people around us was priceless. I
    must admit though, this Christmas when I was at going to the store
    and was asked to pick up some tampons, I felt the slightest bit
    embarrased while I was checking out. Must be my upbringing...
    
    	-- Charles

    re: .22 (Charles)
    
    >>	...and was asked to pick up some tampons, I felt the slightest 
    >>	bit embarrased while I was checking out. 
    
	Don't sweat it too much, Charles, *I* sometimes feel a little
    	embarrassed (if it's a male checker) and *I* use them!!!  =8*)
    
    						Carla
    

PMS and the emotional changes that women go through in their cycles is
occasionally used as a reason why women can't 'manage on a level keel', and make
bad managers, can't think straight, etc... 

I know from personal experience that this can be true (at least for one woman).
What experiences of this sort have you (men & women) had?  Are you unaffected?
Please remember (men & women) to be nice.

RE: Lee

That's interesting about male cycles... are these more like biorythm cycles,
though?

Do you think that it would have been any better to blow up at a woman's PMS
problems, or dismiss them as "on the rag"?  

On a general principle isn't it better to be tolerant of other people's
inexplicable  behavior then get all bent out of shape over something that may
have nothing to do with you? 

Jim.

    
     Martin, good topic and truly legit.
     
     I can chalk up one ruined relationship to PMS. This one particularly
    bothers me because she happened to be one very, very pretty and
    shapely woman. (Thats right readers, I put the emphasis on physical
    beauty - and honestly, who doesn't?) And the icing on the cake?
    While I was trying to reason with her over the phone she actually
    -bragged- about past relationships ruined as a result of her PMS
    attacks!
     
    RE:  .5, Liz, I believe you're offended at the subject matter.
         .9, Lee, I believe the existance of a "male PMS" is just
             bunk and I defy you to substantiate this.
    
     What happens in the event we elect a woman president (fate forbid!)
    and she is particularly prone PMS's effects?
    
                                                           MATT
    

    	RE:  .25
    
    	How many male presidents have we had by now that have had
    	publicized hemorrhoid attacks (with the resulting surgery)?
    
    	Health difficulties are always a risk (as long as we insist
    	on electing HUMANS to the Presidency.)
    
    	Your foot must be getting awfully tasty by now (after having
    	spent much of the day in your mouth.)
    
    	You can put your sock back on now.  :-)  :-)

    re: .25
    
    Research indicates that men's hormones do change in predictable
    and cyclical patterns, and that those patterns are longer than
    women's.  
    
    I am not aware of any reliable research that has connected this
    hormonal cycle to behavior in normal men.  However, there is a
    statistical corelation between men's hormone cycles and
    maniac-depressive behavior. 
    
    That leaves so-called "male PMS" quite a bit short of being
    established as fact and quite a bit past being pure bunk. Call it
    scientific speculation, perhaps.  I haven't read anything about it
    for quite some time, so there may have been a new discovery that
    invalidates everything I said. 

    I can't cite any studies off the top of my head but if you're
    really interested in the subject and not just making debater's
    points, I'll try to fish out the old references. 
    
    --bonnie

    RE:  25
    
    I have a feeling your gonna catch a lot of flame
    marks on your statements! 
    
    FOR YOUR ENLIGHTENMENT: there are numerous PMS clinics
    around the country. If a female president is prone to PMS, I'm sure
    she'd get medical help for her condition, just like Ronnie with
    his cancers and Jimmy with his hemorroids.
    
    GET OUT OF THE DARK AGES!
    

    Re: .25
    
    >What happens in the event we elect a woman president (fate forbid!)
    >and she is particularly prone PMS's effects?
    
    I'm sure that she would have learned to cope with the problem;
    otherwise, I doubt she would have made it through the presidential
    primaries.  (One wrong move, and you're not history - you're just
    nowhere.)

    Its not PMS, but almost everyone I know has "cycles" of some sort.  I
    have fairly noticable manic/depressive cycles (although they are, like
    most things, fairly controllable).  Aren't there days when you feel
    really good and days when you feel pretty sh*tty?  Same thing as
    PMS, functionally.  I wouldn't want to be making critical decisions
    on the bad days, if I didn't have to.

    re: .25 (emphasis on physical attraction)
    
    � . . .(and honestly, who doesn't?)
    
    Matt - I suggest you spend a bit of time reading some of the notes
    on physical attraction (there are several); I feel certain that
    such an exercise will answer your question. 
    
    Steve